Tier List Speculation

[HarmakPaul]

I'm not sure what you find so enjoyable about that match to be your fave
but I was superbly unimpressed with both players in that set

Not NZA, but am the Ness player in that video.

The big thing I do vs. G&W that generally works is staying non committal. G&W has many fast moves to punish, so I need to pick and choose my punishes. Dair generally comes out fast and knocks them down and is the only aerial starting at mid percent that links into something else, assuming they are SDIing the fair correctly. DJC bair is used to wall them out and prevent G&W from using his tools to approach, which are pretty mediocre. If he gets close, I would stop and react to punish, generally with a dair.

The goal is to poke. Generally, I would need to get lucky to get a good combo, so 30% means a good exchange on my end, especially since that's normally 1/4 or 1/3 of a stock gone.

every whiffed GW fair coming a mile away from across the stage was either unpunished or just got a bair to the face, when ness could easily have grabbed or dtilted or dashattacked every single one. too much DJC bair to actually do something decent.
even the commentary picked up on it like half way through the last match

DA is not a good move in this MU. Easily crouch canceled into dtilt if the first hit hits, which puts me into quite a bad spot. It's punishable for the majority of the time. Dtilt I just never incorporated into my play outside of shield pressure since I never saw a situation that I didn't need to dtilt. I think I whiffed a fair amount of grabs in that set, because I was doing them, I just missed a lot.

on top of that, most punishes that DID go through were just strings of dairs from the ness and should have easily just been a couple into an fsmash on the missed techs or jab resets into them or SOMETHING that was actually punishing

Fsmashes are so situational, unlikely to hit, and punishable that I mostly do them when I either choke or am styling. Only 1 in recent mind was used as an actual move. It's a bad, unreliable move in this MU as a result. D-smash is a bit better since it sends Jab resets require myself to be right on them as they are knocked down, and if they are fast enough, generally won't work. I went for one in that set in the only moment that I saw myself able to but didn't get it. The other options were covered, so I still got a punish there.

most of those dair strings did almost no damage, didn't lead to positional gain, and were escaped usually IN THE MIDDLE OF A MISSED DAIR that for some reason was being attempted

Dairs do 14%. Just getting 2 is good enough for me. Positional gain in the MU isn't very important in this MU since he can always up-B to the top platform and reset to neutral from there. My goal is to stay in neutral for as long as possible and prevent G&W from getting anything started while getting in 10-20% here and there. It's like I would play the Marth MU if I didn't have the meaty punishes that came with it.

Overall, I'm not overly satisfied with how well I did there. I did way too much things that were unsafe and thought I was a char with rushdown potential, which is a really bad thing to do as Ness vs G&W, since he can get easy punishes off of bad approaches. I also barely edgeguarded, which is a problem because of how easy it is to do - just whack him with bairs and grab ledge b/c he doesn't have the horizontal recovery to get back a lot of the time.

 

[Apollo Ali]

In all of the examples you posted I see mistakes being made by the players facing G&W. Lucky wasn't patient and sideb'd right into Mrlz' read. Apollo Ali literally just sat there and let Almighty hit him, it also looks like he didn't DI at all (DDD may have been punished anyway due to fatness). Mafia did Peach's upsmash rather than shorthop nair in 3.5 when G&W still had his frame 1 move (fthrow may have been a better option in general due to this). And lastly, Bees! literally just reacted to you jumping from the ledge. Your claims that all of these must have been mistakes and were definitely unintentional byproducts of G&W's design is unsubstantiated bull ****.

how many other characters can confirm a recovery into an f-smash

i agree it was matchup inexperience on my part but i was waiting to react (as i usually do as an edgeguarder) but i obviously couldn't react in time to something that's frame 1, nor did i expect the hitbox to sakurai combo me. i thought the design goal for recoveries was "Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions." When GNW was below me at the angle, I had no options as DDD besides take the ledge. MAYBE I could dair but he could bait that as well. From that angle its just better to let him take ledge, which is also ****ed up tbh, since it's super easy for GNW to do and at least takes himself out of an edgeguarding situation.

 

[Zigludo]

He can't bucket brake, he can bucket stall, which really isn't notable or all that helpful.

if you don't think bucket stall is helpful coming down you ain't using it right

 

[HarmakPaul]

The biggest thing about the MU that determines how it is played is that both Ness & G&W are chars who should have bad neutrals but have the punish game to make up for it. Since G&W is so floaty though, Ness can't get the big % damage that he gets on other characters, so he needs to outplay in neutral in order to do so. He's also at a really good combo weight for G&W, so it's bad if I get hit since a good player would get at least 70-80% off of it. I play vs. Luigi and Zelda the same way, and it generally gets me good mileage. Perhaps that set was a bit of stream nerves + my general anti-clutch during that time period coming into play.

 

[Mage.]

I don't mean to throw off the current discussion of G&W but since this relates to this whole thread and the current discussion I thought I'd ask it here instead of creating a whole new thread.

Does everyone feel that the characters in Project M feel distinct enough from each other? Meaning, in your opinion, do most characters feel and play differently than each other? I'm asking this because of the current discussion of G&W. I really like how G&W plays and although I don't consider him a problem character there are one or two things that I find weird (like his Up-B gains a jump after using it). The thing is, if we nerf every character's unique traits eventually we may end up with all characters playing similarly. Hence why I'm asking this question.

In my opinion, I think every character plays pretty differently from one another, aside from some similarities in the clone characters. I would prefer not every unique thing about characters be nerfed but rather they are made less problematic but still retain their unique traits.

Just curious on opinions/Discussion.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Everyone seems pretty unique in my opinion.

There's obviously going to be similarities between characters or gameplans, but that's pretty much expected and difficult to work around while still keeping the design of the character in tact.

 

[AceGamer]

Currently everyone feels pretty distinct. The only thing I'd like is for Falco to get some different animations here and there but if he doesn't get any I understand. I personally think Lucario or Squirtle is the most unique character in the game.

 

[The_NZA]

I'm confused now. I thought you said he could still Bucket brake like in that video you posted? I was saying he couldn't, but you said I was wrong. Were you just talking about the 3.5 changelog part?

Bucket braking is In the game. In that moment I just had a brain fart and mentioned bucket braking when I meant bucket stalling (which is similar to Magnet stalling).

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm confused now. I thought you said he could still Bucket brake like in that video you posted? I was saying he couldn't, but you said I was wrong. Were you just talking about the 3.5 changelog part?

Yes, he can.

They've literally said the can't remove it and it's been brought up like six times in the past two pages alone.

Edit: Rather, they haven't figured out how to remove it.

G&W can still bucket brake, but not in the situation NZA was presenting, which is when G&W is descending to the stage from an upb. Bucket braking is when you use downb to halt your knockback; you literally can't do that if you're in the air after doing an upb.

how many other characters can confirm a recovery into an f-smash

i agree it was matchup inexperience on my part but i was waiting to react (as i usually do as an edgeguarder) but i obviously couldn't react in time to something that's frame 1, nor did i expect the hitbox to sakurai combo me. i thought the design goal for recoveries was "Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions." When GNW was below me at the angle, I had no options as DDD besides take the ledge. MAYBE I could dair but he could bait that as well. From that angle its just better to let him take ledge, which is also ****ed up tbh, since it's super easy for GNW to do and at least takes himself out of an edgeguarding situation.

If you didn't go for the ledge, you could've FH fair'd him. If he blew his upb reacting to that you would've been able to beat his descending dair with upair and that would've killed him. If you did a bair instead of grabbing the ledge he might've been able to trade with you by upbing, but then he definitely would not have been able to reach the stage. You may have even been able to to hit confirm him with a waddle and follow it up with a fair. You also could've dair'd him, but I'm confused about what you think he would've gained by baiting you to do that?

The sakurai combo looked pretty dumb though. I wonder how many characters it would've still worked on while accounting for SDI and percent.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with this soooo much. In the 3.5 days, I hands down preferred PM, just because the way I could play sheik was a lot more fun. Nowadays, it's like, why not just play melee given where Sheik is? I'm not nearly at the stage in my smash development where I feel like I could just pick up a new character and it wouldn't negatively effect my play.

let's be real, almost all of the stuff left in PM is overly-fair and relatively simple to deal with and we're still not happy with it. after 3.02, we should understand what degeneracy looks like, and we should be able to buff characters in ways to round out their MU spread without causing major problems elsewhere. this is why i moved to buff link's run speed for example, link's entire MU spread is predicated on the opponent's movement speed, where he does well vs slower characters and poorly vs faster ones. by raising his run speed, you round out his bad MUs while barely affecting his good ones. this is still far from degenerate and very reasonable in terms of a buff. it is no secret that i dislike sheik's throw nerfs, however i see it as symptomatic of the larger problem, and i would have no issue making the same statements about say bowser or ike or other characters in a similar position. did ivysaur really need a bair nerf? why was zelda's dair addressed at all? there are some things that are excellent about 3.6, and yet i can't help but arrive at the same conclusion over and over- that this is the first version of PM that is worse than it's predecessor.

 

[Strong Badam]

it's funny that you think this is true lol

Nice job ignoring the information in parenthesis immediately after that quote bro.

 

[Zigludo]

Nice job ignoring the information in parenthesis immediately after that quote bro.

Nah. I read it. You've never been anywhere near Lz's level and your tap jump comment doesn't have any bearing on that statement

 

[Chevy]

how many other characters can confirm a recovery into an f-smash

https://gfycat.com/FaintCrazyKiskadee

DDD problems.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm not really having any difficulties punishing though. Like the few times I don't get a free fair off side-b

Your opponents have atrocious DI, and this is a major red flag that they have absolutely no idea how to play against Bowser.

Honestly if they had just changed Pit, Olimar, and Icies so they weren't dumb bad, I would have been happy with 3.5 as a final version.

Jesus christ, please no :/

 

[Journal]

let's be real, almost all of the stuff left in PM is overly-fair and relatively simple to deal with and we're still not happy with it. after 3.02, we should understand what degeneracy looks like, and we should be able to buff characters in ways to round out their MU spread without causing major problems elsewhere. this is why i moved to buff link's run speed for example, link's entire MU spread is predicated on the opponent's movement speed, where he does well vs slower characters and poorly vs faster ones. by raising his run speed, you round out his bad MUs while barely affecting his good ones. this is still far from degenerate and very reasonable in terms of a buff. it is no secret that i dislike sheik's throw nerfs, however i see it as symptomatic of the larger problem, and i would have no issue making the same statements about say bowser or ike or other characters in a similar position. did ivysaur really need a bair nerf? why was zelda's dair addressed at all? there are some things that are excellent about 3.6, and yet i can't help but arrive at the same conclusion over and over- that this is the first version of PM that is worse than it's predecessor.

Honestly if they had just changed Pit, Olimar, and Icies so they weren't dumb bad, I would have been happy with 3.5 as a final version.

 

[The_NZA]

let's be real, almost all of the stuff left in PM is overly-fair and relatively simple to deal with and we're still not happy with it. after 3.02, we should understand what degeneracy looks like, and we should be able to buff characters in ways to round out their MU spread without causing major problems elsewhere. this is why i moved to buff link's run speed for example, link's entire MU spread is predicated on the opponent's movement speed, where he does well vs slower characters and poorly vs faster ones. by raising his run speed, you round out his bad MUs while barely affecting his good ones. this is still far from degenerate and very reasonable in terms of a buff. it is no secret that i dislike sheik's throw nerfs, however i see it as symptomatic of the larger problem, and i would have no issue making the same statements about say bowser or ike or other characters in a similar position. did ivysaur really need a bair nerf? why was zelda's dair addressed at all? there are some things that are excellent about 3.6, and yet i can't help but arrive at the same conclusion over and over- that this is the first version of PM that is worse than it's predecessor.

Bré, I think you are presenting yourself with a false choice here. You don't have to choose between removing elements you dislike and removing character identity. Let's try and keep in mind, GnW never went through the rigorous fat trimming phase that the rest of the cast did from 3.02-3.5--he was practically buffed in 3.5. He is most likely the least changed character since 3.02 that was not Marth/Falco/Peach/Jiggs. To that extent, I don't think he was ever separated from his toxicity and therefore we haven't even begun to get to the point where cutting from that character is tantamount to cutting from his identity.

Personally, if you've seen the last salt mines, you know that I'm in complete agreement with you. This patch lacks identity or a thesis, and the game would be much better off aiming for a character they want to balance towards, and buffing everyone up to that level, replacing any "bad design" that is removed from mid/low tiers with solid buffs in its place, while not replacing anything they cut from the top tiers. Its a really simple 101 formula that the PMDT appears to be skittish handling just because 3.02 exists. What people always forget is that 3.02 came out at the same time as 7 new characters and an unclear idea of character roles. We are now at a point where we can begin buffing again without causing a **** up of epic proportions.

When it comes to GnW, I still think he would retain a unique identity if upb had more startup, if he only could double jump after upb if it started from the ground, if bacon was designed to be more useful for him while covering less, if sourspots were added to some of his moves so that he could combo more creatively with them without it being as brain dead, if dtilt was comprised of more than one massive hitbox, and if his entire animations were revamped to be accurate.

But yeah, maybe I'm optimistic, but I think we can buff a lot of characters in the low, and low-mid tier so that they are less polarizing while taking away some of the toxicity that's still in the game. I do think this patch is the best one despite the creative lack of focus/consistency across the cast.

 

[1FD]

if sourspots were added to some of his moves so that he could combo more creatively with them without it being as brain dead

Totally agreed with all of that except this part.
That kind of IS his identity and that being adjusted intentionally to not be the case would seriously be as homogenizing and dulling as you could possibly get regarding the character
which is exactly what everybody DOES NOT WANT and will complain about because we want unique stuff everywhere to play Smash and not dittos in every matchup

and that throwback to sloppy play brain dead stuff is where most of the salt about the GW salt is coming from
That's his thing, that's what players get to work with to be creative with, so don't wreck it or you'll get another captainfalconimpersonator v.3.zss but whoever GW would end up mimmiking.
It would be great to have a character in smash with lots of big and long lasting hitboxes, without GW we'd be missing a MAJOR niche for a character in a smash game and need to fill it with another character if we wanted to have that kind of gameplay accessible in PM

This isn't like the Ike case back in the day, who had a style that was ruined because of it
big + lasting hitboxes is GW in a nutshell

oh but don't BUFF his big and lasting hitboxes

otherwise you get whatever the hell happened to snake and his c4 this patch
might as well have made 3.0 ZSS have ALL OF HER MOVES be intangible and given her a KNEE

like wtf I'm still salty over zss having a meleegrab with techchasing throws rather than a tether zoning trap grab with good rewards on di mixups
if anyone fit the latter, it's her
then seeing snake be treated so polarizingly this patch
like really just give Ness pkfire and all of his specials going through shields
and give GW rng 9 chances on every move
good balance apparently
ZSS 3.0 memoires make me sad

But yes NZA, to all of that.
Just watch for trying to neuter centain things on a character like that
It's like if someone said to take away the strength of some of Ness's aerials so they were terrible and not worth using, in favor of giving him an amazing edge game with multiple jumps.
It's just NOT NESS anymore, and that's what you're saying about GW regarding the big lasting hard hitbox coverage type of thing.

Overall, I'm not overly satisfied with how well I did there.

Seemed so and thanks for the reply
You were doing a lot of good things and it looked like you knew what you were doing SOMETIMES then othertimes you were just doing things that didn't allow you to do the things you would have been doing if you were playing well.
Lots of jumping I think was what caught my attention. You did a lot of good stuff, but it's like most of the good stuff you can do requires you to be jumping around everywhere and it seemed to just leave any holes in the opponents game be completely safe because you were active with stuff you didn't need to be doing.
GW is gonna do his aerials and crap anyway, but you would be trying it too and miss so many free things. I think there was a lot just even in those couple matches were moments would happen that you were NOT doing things, and the game turned into this stalemate that basically always benefited you.

I also think that's the kind of stuff I look for only because I play a goddestroyer who sometimes picks up ness and he's as grounded as it gets. Never goes for pkfs almost at all, and basically NEVER fulljumps. It's just this stupid defensive dd wd pivot djc back into dd wd game over and over that can't be approached or hit. Looking for that while watching you made me see a lot of jumping as 'missed free hit' over and over. Like I could point out about 10 aerials or tilts or anything the GW did that would have been either clipped with the tip of Bat or Dashattack.

But at the same time guess that's a style thing as well as a playertoplayer adapting thing, because if that same GW played against the Ness I know he probably would have stopped doing what he was doing and did something else that would have been better against a grounded Ness that went for those things. And against you, he was doing different things because of what you were doing.
matchups between players are sweet like that. Nice play though




I edited the balls out of this post like 20 times

Another late edit for this below my post

This ^

I've been quiet until now but, I have NO idea why there is so much GnW hate. I don't even feel like its because of my sword characters either, I play vs dakpo in friendlies with MANY characters, sword or no sword and I consistently do well because of my counterplay vs his combo game. His punish game has large amounts of player interaction, which I think is very healthy and rewards the player with the most knowledge over the situation. This combined with his non-overpowering neutral, and I don't get the hate. Just looks like a lot of people hating on a character because hes likely undeveloped in any area outside of TX or Florida

this doesn't mean rng isn't dumb btw, pls kill it

GW counterplay is really developed in my small region too because our 2 top players played a lot of GW back in 2.1 and when me and everyone else came into PM, it was the VERY FIRST BULL**** we had to deal with
we dealt with it very well. GW combos are a ***** still, but they're not nearly what someone like Falcon or Snake has when it comes to autocombo, nor are they even that bad at ALL when you're doing things right with every interaction.
Smash is good like that
defense is crazy in this game even when you're getting hit

 

[Deleted member]

All his combos can be escaped very easily if you use SDl to go against his momentum. @Lunchables is great at it and takes little damage while escaping my combos... thats it....I don't have a crippling neutral, I lost my broken projectile (which is understandable), and I'm one of the lightest and floaty characters.
A lot of the GnW hate is coming from straight fraudulence.

This ^

I've been quiet until now but, I have NO idea why there is so much GnW hate. I don't even feel like its because of my sword characters either, I play vs dakpo in friendlies with MANY characters, sword or no sword and I consistently do well because of my counterplay vs his combo game. His punish game has large amounts of player interaction, which I think is very healthy and rewards the player with the most knowledge over the situation. This combined with his non-overpowering neutral, and I don't get the hate. Just looks like a lot of people hating on a character because hes likely undeveloped in any area outside of TX or Florida

this doesn't mean rng isn't dumb btw, pls kill it

it's funny that you think this is true lol

While I don't necessarily think that strong bads punish game was as good as he said, I think the point he was trying to get across was that GnWs punish game is very accessible. Hes a very direct character, his options are obvious and potent. The problem is that there isn't much to develop after you've learned his basic combo options, the skill ceiling is very low. (He wasn't trying to brag or say he was godlike, theres no need to throw ad hominems at him)

 

[Deleted member]

(He wasn't trying to brag or say he was godlike, theres no need to throw ad hominems at him)

storngbard sucks and his dog wears a diaper.

a gay diaper.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Your opponents have atrocious DI, and this is a major red flag that they have absolutely no idea how to play against Bowser.

Yeah I realized I was mixing up sideb fthrow and regular uthrow angles in my mind for some reason

 

[Shockbound]

there isn't much to develop after you've learned his basic combo options, the skill ceiling is very low. (He wasn't trying to brag or say he was godlike, theres no need to throw ad hominems at him)

Speaking of ad hominem...

I don't know why this is the stigma that G&W mains are categorized under. The few dedicated G&W mains that actually exist are hard-working individuals that have dedicated a lot of time to the character. There is so much potential in this character that has been untapped; the sheer amount of negativity from the community that we G&W mains have had to deal with is actually pretty harmful to the growth of the character's already small playerbase.

Nobody wants to pick up the character that everybody thinks is "for dummies." Nobody wants to waste their time with a character that has a "very low skill ceiling." Nobody wants to lose the respect of their peers just because they perform well with a certain character. Most importantly, nobody would ever willingly subject themselves to those kinds of things.

Me and the boys in the G&W Skype group have been making a lot of huge breakthroughs lately in regards to this character's development. The guide that we're making may be a work in progress, but we have already learned so much from it. The quality of information that we're putting together is astounding and I can't wait to see what all of you will have to say about it when it finally gets released.

We're not about to beg for your respect. We're going to earn it.

 

[4tlas]

We're not about to beg for your respect. We're going to earn it.

You shouldn't have to earn it.

 

[Shokio]

I don't think G&W's skill ceiling is low, I just think he has a lot of simple, BnB combos and setups that are more simple, easily accessible, and safe, so people just stick with those. There's a lot more you can do with the character I feel, it's just that the current G&W doesn't really warrant it. He doesn't require you to think too much outside of the box.

But I don't play this character so I could be dead wrong. *shurgs*

 

[Strong Badam]

I think the point he was trying to get across was that GnWs punish game is very accessible. Hes a very direct character, his options are obvious and potent. The problem is that there isn't much to develop after you've learned his basic combo options, the skill ceiling is very low. (He wasn't trying to brag or say he was godlike, theres no need to throw ad hominems at him)

For real lol. I've got nothing to gain from talking up my ability to use a character I don't play anymore. Pretty obviously wasn't the point of my post to anyone who was reading it for its content. No one actually responded to its content, so yeah whatever.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Just camp like me to beat : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDOR1ufUuM

Let's watch me get timed out by too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_pNDR0ECRY

Side note: The Evo PM tourney was **** for these reasons:

• So many players Dq'd (Maybe 50 DQ's).

• Bad seeding. (Literal nonsense)
  
• Horrendous payout structure. (60, 20, 10, 4, 2/2, 1/1)
  
• Enormous stage list. (14 stages???)
  
• Gentleman clause completely ignored (Llod would've beaten Lucky, but got screwed).

 

[Strong Badam]

Side note: The Evo PM tourney was **** for these reasons:

• So many players Dq'd (Maybe 50 DQ's).
• Bad seeding. (Literal nonsense)
  
• Horrendous payout structure. (60, 20, 10, 4, 2/2, 1/1)
  
• Enormous stage list. (14 stages???)
  
• Gentleman clause completely ignored (Llod would've beaten Lucky, but got screwed)

Give your feedback on the EVO side tournament to the TOs who ran it or in a thread where it's relevant, not here. It's not productive and your post would be likely to derail this one.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Give your feedback on the EVO side tournament to the TOs who ran it or in a thread where it's relevant, not here. It's not productive and your post would be likely to derail this one.

Can we talk about Delfino's Secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJGqTtlo3kA&t=5m7s

Look at that part of the transformation. Like what...

 

[Frost | Odds]

Speaking of ad hominem...

I don't know why this is the stigma that G&W mains are categorized under. The few dedicated G&W mains that actually exist are hard-working individuals that have dedicated a lot of time to the character. There is so much potential in this character that has been untapped; the sheer amount of negativity from the community that we G&W mains have had to deal with is actually pretty harmful to the growth of the character's already small playerbase.

Nobody wants to pick up the character that everybody thinks is "for dummies." Nobody wants to waste their time with a character that has a "very low skill ceiling." Nobody wants to lose the respect of their peers just because they perform well with a certain character. Most importantly, nobody would ever willingly subject themselves to those kinds of things.

Me and the boys in the G&W Skype group have been making a lot of huge breakthroughs lately in regards to this character's development. The guide that we're making may be a work in progress, but we have already learned so much from it. The quality of information that we're putting together is astounding and I can't wait to see what all of you will have to say about it when it finally gets released.

We're not about to beg for your respect. We're going to earn it.

It might be more accurate to say that the first major skill plateau is very low. Jiggs in Melee is very much the same way, but even so, there's no comparison between HBox and even the 2nd best Jiggs.

 

[Strong Badam]

Can we talk about Delfino's Secret: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJGqTtlo3kA&t=5m7s

Look at that part of the transformation. Like what...

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-m-recommended-ruleset.396408/ go to threads designated for the topic you wish to discuss Joe

 

[1FD]

Speaking of ad hominem...

I don't know why this is the stigma that G&W mains are categorized under. The few dedicated G&W mains that actually exist are hard-working individuals that have dedicated a lot of time to the character. There is so much potential in this character that has been untapped; the sheer amount of negativity from the community that we G&W mains have had to deal with is actually pretty harmful to the growth of the character's already small playerbase.

Nobody wants to pick up the character that everybody thinks is "for dummies." Nobody wants to waste their time with a character that has a "very low skill ceiling." Nobody wants to lose the respect of their peers just because they perform well with a certain character. Most importantly, nobody would ever willingly subject themselves to those kinds of things.

Me and the boys in the G&W Skype group have been making a lot of huge breakthroughs lately in regards to this character's development. The guide that we're making may be a work in progress, but we have already learned so much from it. The quality of information that we're putting together is astounding and I can't wait to see what all of you will have to say about it when it finally gets released.

We're not about to beg for your respect. We're going to earn it.

Tru this

What's more is that of all the vids I've seen of Dakpo and others I haven't really seen any of them do anything that my local beast does.
Crap like pivot dtilts and pivot/dd/wd jabs and things like falling bair upb falling bair chains with falling bacon into Dacus for kills, even falling uair is lacking, all of this in place of more Dair us in combos. It took years before I saw anyone else doing falling bacon so at least that's a thing now but you can lead that crap into things like weak bair hits into more bacon, and bucket stalling mid air string/pressure/combo while a bacon hits or makes a person jump a certain way or something is still something that's niche that I haven't seen in vids. But it's fancy af

WL utilt and empty jumps in general are still superbly unused by peeps it seems too.
It's like a samus or something, against GW aerials coming at you when he's approaching are practically EXPECTED and when you don't do an aerial and do something like a WL jab grab utilt upb SOMETHING mixup it's just like ****

It might be more accurate to say that the first major skill plateau is very low. Jiggs in Melee is very much the same way, but even so, there's no comparison between HBox and even the 2nd best Jiggs.

Totally this tldr

It's like Mario as Strong put it earlier
pickupandgo

Mario is hella hard at top level, never think otherwise
I aint even seen a finished mario, everyone is noooooob still with that char and he's way further developed than GWs me thinks

 

[Seagull Joe]

I made look broken in 3.5. Guess I'll pick up and do the same. Sounds easy.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Give your feedback on the EVO side tournament to the TOs who ran it or in a thread where it's relevant, not here. It's not productive and your post would be likely to derail this one.

I talked to the TOs about some of these issues at the venue and they agree that things were... less than ideal. Unfortunately the circumstances were trying, space was limited, and people were non-committal. The payout structure was the same as EVO's - it just seems worse on a smaller scale. Main issues were seeding and the last thing Joe mentioned.

But... since this is the Tier List speculation thread:

Mew2 is pretty bad now. Mid tier at best.

 

[LupinX]

But... since this is the Tier List speculation thread:

Mew2 is pretty bad now. Mid tier at best.

I don't think he's that bad. Can you explain your reasoning? I'm curious

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I don't think he's that bad. Can you explain your reasoning? I'm curious

In 3.5 I placed him in upper-mid tier. The reduction in range with his tail, loss of disjoint, and nerfs to his UpB, hover, and sideB pretty much made him a worse version of Marth with different specials. The best part of 3.5 Mewtwo was the creative movement he could accomplish through teleports, hovers, and so forth. The addition of landing lag to his UpB is a significant detriment. In 3.5, notably, he had a mixup from the ledge: waveland on or teleport to the stage. He now loses that mixup - the opponent just needs to cover waveland and react to teleport.

etc

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo is really tough for me personally to play against, though that's probably largely because of my character choice, and the fact that the local M2 is extremely good at the Bowser matchup. I can't personally make him work, but I haven't really put much effort into him.

Regardless, mid tier doesn't sound much like "bad" to a Bowser player.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mew2 is pretty bad now. Mid tier at best.

lmao WHAT
mewtwo is sword peach with a teleport (except with a good WD too)
having disjoint on hover cancels is absolutely absurd, I cannot understand how you could think he's anything less than top 10
hover wasn't nerfed; while he lost potential recovery distance (not that important on a character who already has recovery of the gods) it's a buff in disguise that allows consistent 19-20 frame (total) HC fairs. Previously it was multiple frame-perfect inputs to get it, and missing that got you a very slow HC fair of 25+ frames total. But now you can get 5 jumpsquat+2 hover+6-7 fair hitbox+5landing= 19 frames. It's a version of Peach's HC nair that's like 2 frames slower to hit, but has more reach+breaks CC at around 5%.
Losing a mix-up from the edge that consists of two options is not unreasonable at all. The mix-up isn't even really gone, it's just 10 frames slower for one of the options. You have numerous other options from the ledge (none of them are good by themselves, and that's how it is for most characters), and ledge-jump->teleport still retains its low landing lag. M2's movement options weren't removed at all, if you're referring to the 1 frame telehover than you should have known that was a bug and never relied on it in the first place. Having an invincable approach that reaches just inside most character's DD range is remarkably silly. if you cross them up and fair, you aren't getting punished; if you space a bair, you aren't getting punished. If they are shielding on reaction (just about the only thing to do on reaction to teleport reliably unless your positioning was perfect from the time tele started) you can do a "tomahawk" tele into grab/grounded options. This character has Peach's safety on shield/against CC, ICies ability to approach from a distance with WD, a chargable projectile to encourage approaches, disjoint, incredible punishes due to launching/juggling ability with HC and kill power in various moves to include his quickest aerial and two of his throws plus top tier gimping ability, excellent powershield ability, a command grab that stops projectile approaches and throws off spacing against other approaches, any number of other silly things really
Like, you don't determine character viability from what they lost last patch, you look at how their matchups work against other characters, and especially relevant ones

 

[InfinityCollision]

I honestly have no idea where Mewtwo ranks this patch. He still has a crazy skill ceiling, still has a ton of room for optimization. I think he's slowly slipping towards Pika-tier; I feel like I have to work harder in more matchups (the exceptions are often characters I consider generally underpowered and lacking in design) and little decisions have huge consequences over the course of a stock. No (or fewer) free wins doesn't necessarily make him bad though. I do think bits of his kit could be refined or made more intuitive/easy to use in places (actually mentioned my current wishlist in another post earlier today). Still has lots of solid stuff though; I'd say the question isn't "is he good or bad?" so much as "how good is he really?".

Teleport nerf was basically our QAC2 nerf. It's still a really, really good movement tool that rewards positional awareness and creativity; the nerf primarily hits his recovery and mostly leaves its other uses intact since it only comes into play when he goes into special fall. I could actually see them pushing the IASA on aerial teleport back by 2, maybe 3 frames at some point as well to force more precise use. He still has options for getting off the ledge.

On a related note, can we trim some endlag off grounded teleport already? IASA on it is a full 24 frames after aerial teleport's actionable, which is entirely unnecessary. Drop it down to frame 40 and you'd still have endlag very comparable to a low landing out of special fall. That's more than enough to punish unintentional grounded teleports while still discouraging deliberate non-TeleAC'd landings.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Like, you don't determine character viability from what they lost last patch, you look at how their matchups work against other characters, and especially relevant ones

Mewtwo had unfavorable matchups against many many good characters (e.g. Fox, Falcon, Marth, Roy, Sheik, TLink, Samus, ROB, etc etc), and it is same or worse in 3.6b. Mewtwo is worse than Peach - turnips > shadowball, Peach hits harder, has better combos / a CG on spacies, etc. Most Mewtwo mains pretty much agree on the fact that Mewtwo is significatly worse, now. In fact, just this weekend I had this conversation with Kaos and Emukiller, who, alongside myself, were pioneers for this character.

I was also not disagreeing with some of the nerfs into 3.5 - he was definitely the best character in 3.0 and needed nerfs. I'm just pointing out the things that pushed him further and further down the tier list.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DrinkingFood]

Mewtwo had unfavorable matchups against many many good characters (e.g. Fox, Falcon, Marth, Roy, Sheik, TLink, Samus, ROB, etc etc), and it is same or worse in 3.6b. Mewtwo is worse than Peach - turnips > shadowball, Peach hits harder, has better combos / a CG on spacies, etc. Most Mewtwo mains pretty much agree on the fact that Mewtwo is significatly worse, now. In fact, just this weekend I had this conversation with Kaos and Emukiller, who, alongside myself, were pioneers for this character.

I was also not disagreeing with some of the nerfs into 3.5 - he was definitely the best character in 3.0 and needed nerfs. I'm just pointing out the things that pushed him further and further down the tier list.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

hold up
for starters, you cannot use my shrug face emote
It's my trademark, see ¯\_(ツ)_/¯™

second, mewtwo doesn't need a CG on fox (or spacies) because he has uthrow->aerial->regrab options. His punish game on FFers is absurd lol. I also don't see any real justification for M2 losing to any of those characters. Not to say there isn't any, I just don't know what it is and if you think you do, it would be more convincing to give reasons rather than just state it as fact and leave it there.
Also Kaos is a fraud

 

[Smash G 0 D]

hold up
for starters, you cannot use my shrug face emote
It's my trademark, see ¯\_(ツ)_/¯™

second, mewtwo doesn't need a CG on fox (or spacies) because he has uthrow->aerial->regrab options. His punish game on FFers is absurd lol. I also don't see any real justification for M2 losing to any of those characters. Not to say there isn't any, I just don't know what it is and if you think you do, it would be more convincing to give reasons rather than just state it as fact and leave it there.
Also Kaos is a fraud

M2 has a single uthrow->aerial-> regrab. His punishes are very hard on spacies, yes, but a lot of PM players also don't know how to properly SDI. When M2 plays vs Fox, he is forced to approach due to lasers. At top level, Fox actually combos Mewtwo about as well as Mewtwo combos Fox, except Fox doesn't need to get a grab to start those combos. Fox also lands those grabs more easily, and gets a kill off those grabs off uthrow->uair BEFORE 100%. The one category in which Mewtwo exceeds Fox in this matchup is edgeguarding: it is somewhat difficult for Fox to edgeguard Mewtwo's teleport.

But otherwise, Mewtwo loses in neutral to a lot of these characters. Like I said, Mewtwo is pretty much a weaker Marth. Marth's neutral is aided by his disjoint. He also has strong punishes on fast-fallers off of grabs, AND a better grab-box than Mewtwo (and arguably a better edgeguard).

I have a good bit of experience in this matchup at top level, as well. VGBC|Redd lives pretty close to me and we've played this matchup a number of times in tournament. At first, it's hard to get past M2 gimmicks and his hard punishes, but it doesn't take long for a high level Fox to learn the matchup and realize that he wins the neutral and punish games. Fox hardly even NEEDS an edgeguard game on Mewtwo because landing kills is so easy. You don't even have to respect Mewtwo teleport game because you can laser camp.

As for other matchups... Sheik walls M2 out. Marth is like a ditto except you don't have a disjoint (and Roy is worse). Falcon is faster than Mewtwo so that Mewtwo has to make hard reads in neutral whereas Falcon can just react (and has punishes to death).

One of the only high tier matchups I think MIGHT be even for Mewtwo is actually Diddy Kong. That might also be because I have more practice vs the best Diddy player than anyone else, but even June isn't convinced that it's even haha.