Tier List Speculation

[Player -0]

something something bad combos?

Edit - Wait, that doesn't apply here.

 

[mimgrim]

I prefer Melee's 'plastic' models to Brawl's 'gooey' models,but that's me...

On topic,what weakness does Lucario have other than mildly short range?I feel his speed makes up for that,though...

Lack of an effective neutral game and a rather bad defensive game as well. At least that's how it was in 3.02 from what I recall. Not sure if either changed in 3.5.

 

[PootisKonga]

I don't play Luc, but I do know that his shield was made bigger so that's a defensive change I guess?

 

[_A1]

I think it's amusing that good Fox/Falco players almost never complain about clunkiness or anything because good players don't look at their own character, they're too busy watching their opponent. Whatever differences the graphics makes doesn't matter since the movement itself is more or less the same.

Well I never even mentioned graphics or anything. I don't think that has to do with "clunkyness" either. Maybe there are tiny little insignificant differences in Melee and PM physics that make movement between games feel somewhat different. Or the camera angle. Melee is zoomed in more so it feels like you move more distance when it's actually the same.

 

[Paradoxium]

Lack of an effective neutral game and a rather bad defensive game as well. At least that's how it was in 3.02 from what I recall. Not sure if either changed in 3.5.

Lack of a neutral game is just a lie that Lucario players tell people in order to make their character seem less op.

 

[Boiko]

ok lets do this ****

yes they are in order dont you come up to me with that "oh that character isnt lower than other character" fk u

top:
actually top:
high:
high-mid:
mid:
low-mid:
bottom:

top(furries): spacies are still stupid, wolf is in front of falco because he has better combos and falco's combos kind of fall apart with good di in this game

high(not furries): samus is rly fking good, shiek loves recovery nerfs, same with peach. lucario is so fking fast and he doesnt really have to commit to anything cus of aura canceling, tink has a really good item game and stupid big projectiles, ike has ridiculous mobility and long combos, marth still have a 10-0 matchup with the lower half of the cast.

high-mid(pm characters that got nerfed from 3.0 and captain falcon): these characters couldnt make it to high tier cause of the nerfs they got except for captain falcon, hes just really good still.

mid: these are characters who got nerfed too hard from 3.0 or were really ****ty in 3.0 and buffed in 3.5 so theyre decent now

low-mid: slow characters with BIG DAMAGE

bottom: yea olimar is bottom im admitting it now. his neutral game is ****, damage is ****, only good thing about him is pivot grab and when he gets comboed off stage its over cause edgeguarding him is ez

EDIT: fk i forgot ice climbers

i have no idea where to put these ****s cus in theory they are top tier but in reality they get **** on by most of the cast if you arent doing frame perfect **** constantly. ima just put them at the bottom of mid tier

Haven't I proven that Ness is at the very least high tier yet? I mean, YOU'VE ACTUALLY SEEN MY NESS. ;(

 

[shairn]

Well I never even mentioned graphics or anything. I don't think that has to do with "clunkyness" either. Maybe there are tiny little insignificant differences in Melee and PM physics that make movement between games feel somewhat different. Or the camera angle. Melee is zoomed in more so it feels like you move more distance when it's actually the same.

Whether you dash or walk in Melee is determined by the speed at which you move your control stick, while in PM and Brawl only the position of the stick is used, so the further you press the faster you go, regardless of the speed at which you moved the stick. There are other differences, like the existence of RAR, the extra SH frame in PM. Maybe others.

 

[steelguttey]

Haven't I proven that Ness is at the very least high tier yet? I mean, YOU'VE ACTUALLY SEEN MY NESS. ;(

he still has problems dealing with pressure and his disjoints are weird and clunky

you kick everyone's ass at our local because youre really good, ness is probably like top high-mid tho idk

 

[Frost | Odds]

Everyone loses fairly hard to spacies

Toon Link suffers the same problem but sethlon/oracle/denti think tink is top 5.

wait, how does Oracle still think that? He knows how hard Tink loses to spacies, ROB, probably still bopped by Mario, loses to Marth, Roy, and basically everyone else with a toe in the top 15.

 

[MLGF]

Eh, I still think the FE crew has a punish game that just murders spacies, but then spacies do things and... yeah.
It's honestly the same as Melee Marth vs Spacies, but it's a bit more expanded to include more furry bait and more hot teens who somehow carry large swords without a single bit of muscle mass.

I think I said

Fire Emblem vs Star Fox 3.5: New Age of Jank

to initially describe 3.5 in this topic. Joke post or not... may not be too wrong.

 

[DMG]

I would have found out about TL at Bowser's Revenge 14, but I got stopped by a Yoshi. All my Yoshi bad-mouthing and Hamyojo went HAM on me, gg'z I guess I should pick Zelda :'(

 

[Boiko]

he still has problems dealing with pressure and his disjoints are weird and clunky

you kick everyone's *** at our local because youre really good, ness is probably like top high-mid tho idk

I definitely don't think anything is wrong with his disjoints. They're so good and definitely trip people up.
Dealing with pressure is a problem, sure, but no character outside of Fox can pressure so hard that Ness' 5 frame nair can't deal with it. Just don't let them in. Ness has some of the best walling in the game. Character is the nut. If you want to beat him though, just play Zelda. Edit: o w8.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I would have found out about TL at Bowser's Revenge 14, but I got stopped by a Yoshi. All my Yoshi bad-mouthing and Hamyojo went HAM on me, gg'z I guess I should pick Zelda :'(

You played really well, though. Congratulations on getting as far as you did :D

EDIT: That time of night again.

I'm bored and hate studying for exams, so slightly revised list based on new data and new misconceptions.

Also, I remembered some things about Yoshi.

Lists are ordered, left is best.

Fox Tier:

Not Fox Tier (Top):

Not Fox Tier (Not Top):

Quite Viable Tier:

Probably Quite Viable Tier:

Why Bother Tier:

I have No Idea Where To Put This Thing Tier:

OH JESUS WAS I DRUNK OR WHAT

LET'S FIX THIS RIGHT UP

once again all subjective I suck yadda yadda etc

I weight perceived potential higher than current tourney winnings

as before, lists are ordered, left is best.

Fox Tier:

Top Tier (Varsity Squad):

Top Tier (Junior Varsity):

Top Tier Groupies with Rough Neutral Games:

Minor Academic Scholarships:

Paying Own Way By Flipping Burgers:

[Still] crap:

Would Apparently Be Good If Not Bugged:

Random notes:

... So I've played around with Sonic a whole bunch -- and it's not that he's *bad* so much as he really struggles with trades. Pretty much every character has really easy means of basically guaranteeing trades against Sonic due to his tiny and relatively predictable hitboxes. This means that he's largely forced into a really awkward spacing game by doing ftilts out of pivots or runs as soon as the opponent figures out the MU, and that's just not what the character's supposed to be good at. If he ignores this and just continues doing the sonic thing, he's almost certainly going to die a lot earlier than his opponent.

I still hate everything about Sonic's games, character, aesthetic, personality, the fact that he's in Brawl/this game, etc -- but he's fun af to play and it's sorta sad that he seems to get a bit pooped on (though I could be wrong about that).

Just haven't seen any good Links or Pits. They're probably passable, but don't feel threatening.

Crap tier's failings have been pretty well covered elsewhere in the thread.

Dad is the best squirtle and he gets crapped on by randoms. I'm not sure if that's just a lack of good squirtles, or the character being a failboat. I still feel pretty bad for the squirtman, he seems to have a lot of rough MUs.

20XX mewtwo is gonna be goddamn real, kiddoes.

I might be overrating ganon, but I don't even play ganon and in some MUs my Ganon does way better than my Bowser. PWLs are piss easy, his dtilt is god tier, he has a float and an actually usable command grab, and SH FF nair ACs !?!?!?

MK is still pretty strong, just might be kinda overshadowed ATM. Maybe lack of good MKs? Who knows

Warming up to Ness - I think I've got a better understanding of how he works -- and the fact that he doesn't seem to have any really unwinnable or ultra hard (correct me if I'm wrong, Ness players) matchups is a pretty big deal. That tipper fsmash tho

The neutral games of the 'groupies' tier aren't necessarily terrible, it's more like they tend to suffer really badly in a few select matchups, notably:

Marth is still busted. PM's smoother movement and generally more straightforward combo physics help him a lot more than anyone thinks IMO -- and the 50/50 kill mixup on floaties doesn't hurt. He's still roughly even with spacies, can compete with absolutely anyone, and still invalidates a pretty significant portion of the cast. I think he's better than Roy still due to the fact that his optimal spacing is almost never optimal for the opponent as well; but I could of course be wrong. He's not easy to play, but when played at a very high level, he's unbelievably hard to compete with for a large portion of the cast.

Bowser is still quite bad IMO, but he has improved quite significantly. Though I'm still extremely confident in placing him in the bottom 10, he's caught up to the rest of the cast quite a bit, even in my opinion outclassing some of the worse characters. He still gets invalidated pretty hard by a few matchups, but far less than before, and even those are, for the most part, almost winnable now.

 

[NWRL]

Serious question. How are you supposed to DI Bowsers upthrow, it seems like it gets free follow ups for every possible DI

 

[DrinkingFood]

PM's... generally more straightforward combo physics

?

???

Are you just saying things to say them now or what? Doesn't that statement kinda need an explanation?

Also your Marth and ROB placements are still both godawful
And you haven't really provided any significant back-up for GnW and DDD. Are you an authority on their matchups? Do you REALLY know enough to confidently say not only how many and which characters they beat (clearly most, given their placements) but that a fair few of the ones they do beat are also relevant characters in your list?

 

[Boiko]

Warming up to Ness - I think I've got a better understanding of how he works -- and the fact that he doesn't seem to have any really unwinnable or ultra hard (correct me if I'm wrong, Ness players) matchups is a pretty big deal. That tipper fsmash tho

Sheik, Samus, Zelda, are IMO, his worst.
Fox, Falco, Marth, Wolf, Falcon, Link, and Ivysaur are less in his favor but decently close to neutral.

Really, nothing is currently unwinnable for him. Maybe when the meta develops more we'll see, but as things stand now, he has one of the scariest punish games out of the entire cast on almost every character and some of the best edge guarding tools.

 

[Jolteon]

wait, how does Oracle still think that? He knows how hard Tink loses to spacies, ROB, probably still bopped by Mario, loses to Marth, Roy, and basically everyone else with a toe in the top 15.

 

[Foo]

@ Frost | Odds I'd agree with a good portion of this, especially if characters in each tier are in no particular order, however there are a few characters that are WAY off. There is absolutely no way lucario is that low on the tier list, especially when it comes to potential. Sonic is also not gonna be low tier, that's just silly. I mean, just because you can't mindlessly down-b over and over anymore doesn't mean he can't still be really good. Also, let's not forget people thinking sonic sucks at the start of every patch where he winds up being top tier. I'm also still not really sold on ROB being top tier. As much as I call G&W really underrated, I don't think he's quite that high.

@ DrinkingFood This is all speculation, he isn't providing a tried and true tier list. You can still criticize it, obviously, but you could be a little less rude about it.

Also, why wouldn't marth be top tier? I keep seeing people post that, but marth wins soooooooo many matchups and barely loses any, yet people keep calling him mid or lower mid without backing it up at all. His only real weakness is struggling to kill past 70(and a meh recovery), but he more than makes up for it with his other insane strenghts.

 

[JayTheUnseen]

I don't get people saying Ivy has the worst recovery.I think that trophy of shame goes to the boy Roy.
At least Ivy has OPTIONS when recovering,unlike the unfortunate red-haired swordsman.

 

[Foo]

I don't get people saying Ivy has the worst recovery.I think that trophy of shame goes to the boy Roy.
At least Ivy has OPTIONS when recovering,unlike the unfortunate red-haired swordsman.

Uhm, olimar. The one you are looking for is olimar. Even if his up-b worked every time it should, it'd still be worse than ivy's. Roy's actually isn't that bad, it's better than falcon's. It's extremely linear, sure, but up-b beats out just about everything. Also, roy doe shave some recovery options based off the angle at which he goes for ledge. That makes him considerably harder to gimp.

 

[steelguttey]

I definitely don't think anything is wrong with his disjoints. They're so good and definitely trip people up.
Dealing with pressure is a problem, sure, but no character outside of Fox can pressure so hard that Ness' 5 frame nair can't deal with it. Just don't let them in. Ness has some of the best walling in the game. Character is the nut. If you want to beat him though, just play Zelda. Edit: o w8.

i actually main zelda now so

[Still] crap:

..but he was good in 3.0

 

[PootisKonga]

How does Bowser fare against Ness anyway? Obviously we're combo food, but bar projectiles doesn't he outrange most of Ness' moveset?

 

[Boiko]

How does Bowser fare against Ness anyway? Obviously we're combo food, but bar projectiles doesn't he outrange most of Ness' moveset?

IMO 60-40 Ness but perfectly doable for Bowser. Once you get Ness off stage, edge guarding with bair is so easy it should be illegal. Ness can just run circles around him, projectile camp, and combo super heavy. Also, watch out for the yo-yo drop edge guards. The on stage game heavily favors Ness but Bowser can edge guard like a champ.

My experience in this match up is against Deff, who is no slouch.
But I four stocked him in 56 seconds soo....

 

[Frost | Odds]

Are you just saying things to say them now or what? Doesn't that statement [about combo physics] kinda need an explanation?

RAR, B-reverse, the way PM detects dashing, and so forth make it much easier to move around in PM, which makes extending punishes significantly easier. As for the physics themselves, I'm not an expert, but it sure as hell feels a lot easier for me personally. My PM Marth is vastly better than my Melee marth, and maybe even not entirely fraudulent. Of course that's incredibly subjective, but it is what it is. Marth is godly in Melee, and he's even better here. He barely has any losing matchups, crushes a lot of matchups, and even his losing ones aren't even that bad. Marth vs Sheik in PM is probably 45:55 at worst for Marth.

Also your Marth and ROB placements are still both godawful

Yes, we're aware that you're incredibly biased re: ROB. My day 1 ROB was about twice as good as my week 4+ Zard (and diddy. And luigi. And kirby), so whatever dude -- make your own list with ROB at the bottom if you like.

And you haven't really provided any significant back-up for GnW and DDD. Are you an authority on their matchups? Do you REALLY know enough to confidently say not only how many and which characters they beat (clearly most, given their placements) but that a fair few of the ones they do beat are also relevant characters in your list?

please read the disclaimer

once again all subjective I suck yadda yadda etc

Anyway, when queried about any specific MU, @Ripple 's response is basically "of course DDD wins that you goddam scrub" - and I'm inclined to take him at his word, even though I can't personally make him work.

As for GnW, he's got guaranteed touch of death against a huuuuuuuge portion of the cast, at least 2 aerials (fair and dair) that are weirdly safe on shield, particularly when spaced well in fair's case (as far as I can tell, though I *do* play Bowser, whose grabs are a bit slow iirc); short hop double bacon which kinda hoses SHFFL-dependent characters, and extremely safe lingering moves that make him really tough to rush down. He's hardly the best character in the game, but he's very tough for a lot of the cast to deal with when played properly, and I think he actually goes even with or beats most of the top tiers on my list.

Inclined to agree with @ Boiko 's assessment of Ness vs Bowser

..but he was good in 3.0

Indeed. Hence the '[still]', rather than 'still'

@ Frost | Odds I'd agree with a good portion of this, especially if characters in each tier are in no particular order, however there are a few characters that are WAY off. There is absolutely no way lucario is that low on the tier list, especially when it comes to potential. Sonic is also not gonna be low tier, that's just silly. I mean, just because you can't mindlessly down-b over and over anymore doesn't mean he can't still be really good. Also, let's not forget people thinking sonic sucks at the start of every patch where he winds up being top tier. I'm also still not really sold on ROB being top tier. As much as I call G&W really underrated, I don't think he's quite that high.

You could be right, particularly about Lucario. As for Sanic, we'll see, and I'll keep playing with him. His hitboxes are really small.

@ DrinkingFood This is all speculation, he isn't providing a tried and true tier list. You can still criticize it, obviously, but you could be a little less rude about it.

Indeed. Thank you. ^^

 

[PlateProp]

...

So like, PM Marth is better than Melee Marth

And PM spacies are worse than Melee Spacies

Doesnt that make Marth best character in gaem?

 

[Soft Serve]

...

So like, PM Marth is better than Melee Marth

And PM spacies are worse than Melee Spacies

Doesnt that make Marth best character in gaem?

Not when every other character has a great projectile and falcon combos, and great suitability, which plus larger stages means they dont die.

Marth has really good neutral and takes early stocks, but the moment the opponent falls out of a juggle at above like 85%, he won't be dieing till like 160.

 

[PlateProp]

Not when every other character has a great projectile and falcon combos, and great suitability, which plus larger stages means they dont die.

Marth has really good neutral and takes early stocks, but the moment the opponent falls out of a juggle at above like 85%, he won't be dieing till like 160.

No Softie you're supposed to let the thread asplode

Real talk tho, everyone says Marf loses to projectiles hard but I never see that

Marf's tip just has too much girth to be ignored

 

[MLGF]

Let's just keep saying Marth is bad, then when all the other Melee tops get nerfed in the final PM patch, Marth will take over the world with an iron fist.

 

[Soft Serve]

Let's just keep saying Falcon is bad, then when all the other Melee tops get nerfed in the final PM patch, Falcon will take over the world with an iron Knee.

 

[Foo]

Let's just keep saying Marth is bad, then when all the other Melee tops get nerfed in the final PM patch, Marth will take over the world with an iron fist.

Yeah, let's not. I friggin hate marth >.>

 

[Frost | Odds]

How does ZSS do against marth (and, hell, ROB and falcon)?

 

[Foo]

How does ZSS do against marth (and, hell, ROB and falcon)?

Not sure about ROB. In 3.02, I heard a couple people on the ZSS forums say rob is hard for ZSS, and I also heard from oracle in 3.02 that zss beats rob. Haven't experienced against anyone who wasn't terrible, so I can't say.

Falcons is fairly hard. He beats zss farily hard in neutral, combos her really well, and ZSS struggles at comboing him =(as with all of the fast fallers). However, once falcon gets off stage, zss gimp him very well with either downsmash, divekick, or crawl-fall ledge hogs. Overall, I'd say it's either even, 55-45 falcon or 60-40 falcon, most likely one of the first two.

Last patch, zss did fairly well against marth because he could not deal with ZSS dc blaster and nair chains were free on marth, and that made the matchup slightly in her favor to considerably in her favor. However, blaster is a joke for marth and he can't be combo'd as easily. The new grab helps, because marth actually has to space aerials on shield, but that's not that big of a deal. Overall, probably around 60-40 for marth. However, it may only be 55-45 because I'm still experimenting with wavebounce blaster and plasma whip, and those seem to help a lot. The main thing ZSS has in this matchup, though, is a good gimp game on marth with divekicks and crawl falls.

 

[hamyojo]

A lot of you guys really don't understand how Marth works. If you can stay out of shield and hit stun and just out of his grab range, you win. The stages in PM are much wider, which is worse for Marth 'cause you can run away from him and he'll be reaching pretty hard to start something if you play it right. Also characters in PM are generally faster than the Melee vets many of them are based on, so they can outrun him. Not all can, but many can.
The key to beating Marth is make him whiff/throw out a bad attack first. A good Marth will wait to throw out his moves, a worse player will fly at him from the air then just get swatted with Marth's laggy, but super quick to start fair. Learn to bait.
Marth isn't low tier, he can apply plenty of pressure, is still quick, and still has a super scary combo game on most of the cast, but I don't think he's even top 20.
Watch how great Melee players deal with Marth, it could help everyone understand that he isn't that great. There's a good reason that, even thought he's amazing against Spacies, there's a very few amount of top, top level Marths in both games.

Falcon, unlike Marth, cannot be outsped. Falcon has guaranteed kills out of throws at very high percents. He can combo heavy floaties (which is what a ton of the PM cast is) forever. He cannot be camped. His knee is safe on shield. He has massive hitboxes, and amazing aerial mobility to match. His recovery if you DI up is mostly fine, but under the stage it is horrid. There's your negative. If anyone thinks that Marth should be higher than Falcon on the PM tier list, they're wrong. Marth is much more balanced than Falcon in the current build.

 

[DMG]

FALCON

Yes I co-sign this. I give up Marth, Falcon is the truth and my eyes have seen!

 

[JayTheUnseen]

A lot of you guys really don't understand how Marth works. If you can stay out of shield and hit stun and just out of his grab range, you win. The stages in PM are much wider, which is worse for Marth 'cause you can run away from him and he'll be reaching pretty hard to start something if you play it right. Also characters in PM are generally faster than the Melee vets many of them are based on, so they can outrun him. Not all can, but many can.
The key to beating Marth is make him whiff/throw out a bad attack first. A good Marth will wait to throw out his moves, a worse player will fly at him from the air then just get swatted with Marth's laggy, but super quick to start fair. Learn to bait.
Marth isn't low tier, he can apply plenty of pressure, is still quick, and still has a super scary combo game on most of the cast, but I don't think he's even top 20.
Watch how great Melee players deal with Marth, it could help everyone understand that he isn't that great. There's a good reason that, even thought he's amazing against Spacies, there's a very few amount of top, top level Marths in both games.

Falcon, unlike Marth, cannot be outsped. Falcon has guaranteed kills out of throws at very high percents. He can combo heavy floaties (which is what a ton of the PM cast is) forever. He cannot be camped. His knee is safe on shield. He has massive hitboxes, and amazing aerial mobility to match. His recovery if you DI up is mostly fine, but under the stage it is horrid. There's your negative. If anyone thinks that Marth should be higher than Falcon on the PM tier list, they're wrong. Marth is much more balanced than Falcon in the current build.

Thanks for taking away my akward-ness of hating Falcon.

 

[hamyojo]

Laudandus is my spirit animal

 

[InfinityCollision]

...

So like, PM Marth is better than Melee Marth

And PM spacies are worse than Melee Spacies

Doesnt that make Marth best character in gaem?

PM Marth > Melee Marth, but the Melee meta works better for Marth. PM's stagelist is arguably less favorable for Marth and he's more susceptible to getting outmaneuvered, outspaced, or even just surviving better against him than Melee's top characters could.

 

[Foo]

A lot of you guys really don't understand how Marth works. If you can stay out of shield and hit stun and just out of his grab range, you win. The stages in PM are much wider, which is worse for Marth 'cause you can run away from him and he'll be reaching pretty hard to start something if you play it right. Also characters in PM are generally faster than the Melee vets many of them are based on, so they can outrun him. Not all can, but many can.
The key to beating Marth is make him whiff/throw out a bad attack first. A good Marth will wait to throw out his moves, a worse player will fly at him from the air then just get swatted with Marth's laggy, but super quick to start fair. Learn to bait.
Marth isn't low tier, he can apply plenty of pressure, is still quick, and still has a super scary combo game on most of the cast, but I don't think he's even top 20.
Watch how great Melee players deal with Marth, it could help everyone understand that he isn't that great. There's a good reason that, even thought he's amazing against Spacies, there's a very few amount of top, top level Marths in both games.

Falcon, unlike Marth, cannot be outsped. Falcon has guaranteed kills out of throws at very high percents. He can combo heavy floaties (which is what a ton of the PM cast is) forever. He cannot be camped. His knee is safe on shield. He has massive hitboxes, and amazing aerial mobility to match. His recovery if you DI up is mostly fine, but under the stage it is horrid. There's your negative. If anyone thinks that Marth should be higher than Falcon on the PM tier list, they're wrong. Marth is much more balanced than Falcon in the current build.

lol. All of the advice you gave against marth was hilarious. "Yeah, dude, just wait for marth to throw out an unsafe option and whff, then punish him. Yeah, not getting hit is pretty effective against most of the cast. Not to mention, marth's speed is not a weakness... it's almost top 10... If that makes marth's speed weak, then a major 3.02 zss weakness was her recovery. Same goes to fair being laggy wut. 7 frames l-canceled and he can do two in a short hop. Next you'll tell me luigi aerials are laggy.

Baiting out and punishing a move more often than your opponent does it to you isn't called counterplaying marth, it's called "outplaying." Yes, if you outplay marth, you can beat him.

Also, watch how great melee players deal with marth? First off, this isn't melee. Secondly and more importantly, you can also watch how great players deal with EVERY OTHER MELEE CHARACTER and come to the same conclusion. Sheik and spacies are still higher on the tier list than marth anyhow (except maybe falco).

As for falcon, his recovery does not have "mostly fine" recovery. It's a contender for worst in the game (not counting oli). Falcon is also much more of a glass canon. His only real oos option is up-b, and missing that is, well... bad and he gets combo'd much more easily. Yeah, he has some pretty hitboxes, but that can't really be listed as a pro over marth... marth invented the massive hitbox. He al Another point against falcon is that he loses to the arguably top 4 characters, spacies and shiek. I'm not saying he's not top/high tier (depending on how you do it), but he's def about the same as marth on the tiers.

 

[Player -0]

What are people looking for when they look for OoS options?

I see people saying some people's suck because they have one option (aside from the generic ones, WD OoS, OoS aerial, and stuff). I see having good range, quick, OoS aerials as being pretty good, as well as a lengthy WD OoS.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What are people looking for when they look for OoS options?

I see people saying some people's suck because they have one option (aside from the generic ones, WD OoS, OoS aerial, and stuff). I see having good range, quick, OoS aerials as being pretty good, as well as a lengthy WD OoS.

The stuff you said are good options. Move like mario's up b (invincible/intangible) are also super good OoS.