Tier List Opinions?

[Hemwick]

Luigi is low tier

 

[Raycu]

I'd personally say luigi is mid tier.

 

[Hemwick]

I'd personally say luigi is mid tier.

Nah man, Luigi is definitely low tier.

 

[Ten of Nine]

It's already been scientifically proven that Luigi is mid-tier.

 

[bonesaw1]

It's kinda hard because Melee's tier list doesn't seem to have a generally agreed upon basis for its ranking. Whether it's based on overall potential or ability in the metagame (and then, whether it's the mid level, high level or pro level metagames also make a difference. Characters like Puff are lethal at the pro level but there's not much proper representation at mid or even high level, and at pro level, match ups against the top 6 are much higher weighed than the entire rest of the cast combined.).

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, some characters are ranked because results, and some characters are ranked because "come on bro", lmao.

Luigi is NOT low tier. No debate.

 

[Ravengeance]

Don't feed the troll guys. Luigi isn't low tier and we all know it. If you argue with someone who believes luigi is low tier either they are just messing with you or they don't understand the game as well as you. You are better at making a tier list. Please move on.

 

[faroIN]

I think the current one is pretty accurate. If anything, I think YL beats Mario and that Ganon is in the same tier as Doc, Yoshi, and Luigi instead of below. DK also has hella potential and I could see him move up a spot or two.

 

[C.O.K.]

My opinion on the matter is this:
S Tier: Fox (He's obviously the best in the game)
A+ Tier: Falco and Marth (These two are so close it's hard to separate them)
A Tier: Sheik, Puff, Peach (These characters have some bad MUs that prevent them from being A+)
A- Tier: Falcon, IC's (Great characters, just some glaring weaknesses)
B+ Tier: Samus, Pikachu
B Tier: Luigi, Doc, Ganon
B- Tier: Yung Link, Yoshi, Mario
C+ Tier: DK, Link
C Tier: G&W, Mewtwo
D Tier: Roy, Ness
D- Tier: Pichu
F Tier: Zelda, Kirby, Bowser

 

[Hemwick]

My opinion on the matter is this:
S Tier: Fox (He's obviously the best in the game)
A+ Tier: Falco and Marth (These two are so close it's hard to separate them)
A Tier: Sheik, Puff, Peach (These characters have some bad MUs that prevent them from being A+)
A- Tier: Falcon, IC's (Great characters, just some glaring weaknesses)
B+ Tier: Samus, Pikachu
B Tier: Luigi, Doc, Ganon
B- Tier: Yung Link, Yoshi, Mario
C+ Tier: DK, Link
C Tier: G&W, Mewtwo
D Tier: Roy, Ness
D- Tier: Pichu
F Tier: Zelda, Kirby, Bowser

In all seriousness, I think that puff should be below peach.

 

[-ACE-]

In all seriousness, I think that puff should be below peach.

Why?

C.O.K. What matchups make puff and sheik not in the same tier as Marth/Falco? All 4 of them have matchups that are evenish.

 

[Ten of Nine]

Sheik easily should be in the same tier.

But over the years it's clear to me that Puff can be camped and doesn't have definite winning MUs against a lot of mid tiers and even a low tier like G&W can give her trouble. Kirby also has an interesting MU with Jiggs. I don't think it's possible to elaborate on it in such a general thread, since sometimes people have really aggressive opinions about rare things they don't really have experience with. Sheik on the other hand just outright obliterates most anything mid and below (Yoshi and the Mario bros can give her trouble but not after the MU is learned).

I personally believe in a true tier list that takes all MU and characters into account not just the top common tourney characters. So I guess that informs my tier list thoughts on Puff as well.

 

[iAmMatt]

I think samus should be higher than pika because samus is far more consistent than pika. Samus also has greater range. Also if we take into consideration top player rep samus is higher because of how long it's been since pika made a significant impact on a national level.

Luigi is low tier

LOL, just because you picked the character once in friendlies and got bopped that doesn't make them low tier

 

[Hemwick]

LOL, just because you picked the character once in friendlies and got bopped that doesn't make them low tier

Yes it does

 

[-ACE-]

Yes it does

https://youtu.be/VjTrsiWuDOs

Check out that movement near the end of game 2

 

[faroIN]

Luigi top tier confirmed

 

[Popertop]

Pichu is under-represented, and has a high skill ceiling

Auto-cancel Agility has 1 frame (!) of landing lag

He has 3 pre-jump frames (same as Fox etc), and along with Pikachu has only 2 frames of vulnerability on tech-in-place

He has lots of potential for abusing his mobility advantage

I think he could be as strong as C or B tier

 

[Ten of Nine]

Pichu is under-represented, and has a high skill ceiling

Auto-cancel Agility has 1 frame (!) of landing lag

He has 3 pre-jump frames (same as Fox etc), and along with Pikachu has only 2 frames of vulnerability on tech-in-place

He has lots of potential for abusing his mobility advantage

I think he could be as strong as C or B tier

Watch some of Ryan Ford's or KDJ's very early Pichu play, they pretty much took it to the highest skill ceiling when they "mained" Pichu. The meta has only gotten worse for a character like Pichu with CC usage, shield drops, and OoS punishes. You can just get by with one move and some throws and stuff that work only on fast fallers on certain stages.

1 frame agility if you can pull it off consistently would still damage yourself. I have yet to see anyone use it in a meaningful way even by chance...plus it's not actually fast (it's react-able 35-36 frames), has no hitbox, you're vulnerable the entire time, and it telegraphs a while before he even moves. For the 1 frame AC you can't vary the distance either so it could be predictable. Honestly Pichu has really great rolls and in comparison even something as basic as his roll has more utility than "perfect agility", Mewtwo's AC teleport is far better than PA as well.

Pichu also has some of the worst tech rolls in the game. Many characters can just preemptively cover his tech in place AND his tiny tech rolls. For example as Falco playing against a Pichu you can Dair Pichu into ground, cover a tech in place by F-smashing or Dairing again, then after you can Fsmash or Dair again to cover the tiny distance Pichu can tech roll if he didn't tech in place.

So yea he's very easy to combo, easy to CG, easy to tech chase, dies early, has terrible range, lots of unusable moves, lacks combos on most on the cast, all this overshadows his above average speed and mobility. A Pichu can easily beat inexperienced players, or players that don't know the MU....but using that data would make for a dishonest tier list placement, it can't be biased in a character's favor with uneven player skill and MU ignorance.

There isn't really anything underrated about G&W or Pichu, I would bet any sum of money that neither of these characters see any meaningful or consistent competitive results increase until this game dies.

 

[Popertop]

WALL OF TEXT

I've seen KDJ's early pichu, from when the meta was much slower. And Ryan Ford does have a good Pichu. But I wouldn't say people who put their tournament life on other characters as taking it to the highest skill ceiling.

You can just get by with one move and some throws and stuff that work only on fast fallers on certain stages.

By this I'm assuming you mean 'can't get by', and that you're referring to a playstyle where you limit yourself to moves that don't damage you and throws. You aren't going to find full punishes by limiting yourself like that.

Obviously Pichu is light, and up to a certain point, he's pretty much going to die to any random stray hit. He needs to play a very campy, movement centered neutral. When you hit a certain percent threshold, you actually don't care about your percent any more at all, and can just zip around the stage and see if people can even get close to catching you. 'Get a lead and camp' has always been a strategy in fighting games, and Pichu is a char that can do it.

sometimes people have really aggressive opinions about rare things they don't really have experience with.

Do you think I would bring up something like AutoCancel Agility if I didn't know what I was talking about?

And why are you trying to talk about AutoCancel Agility if you can't perform it consistently?

It's been known about on the Pichu boards for a number of years now, so obviously I'm not the only one. I didn't learn about it there, however, I found it through my own testing.

For the 1 frame AC you can't vary the distance either so it could be predictable. Honestly Pichu has really great rolls and in comparison even something as basic as his roll has more utility than "perfect agility", Mewtwo's AC teleport is far better than PA as well.

Agility is basically an 8-way Airdash, and he has the variation of Tilt and Smash angles. So yes you can vary the distance. Sometimes it does get predictable and you get Usmashed. It's no different from any other characters movement techniques in that regard. But usually, you get to pick a spot and go there, with enough options to keep people from covering everything. Sometimes you get in bad position, but again, that will happen.

Landing on the stage isn't the only way to get an autocancel, btw. You can do Rising AC Agility onto platforms.

His rolls are really good (4th, 5th best) and I use them frequently to get back to a neutral where I'm fighting from a spacing I choose.

And I'll agree with you on Mewtwo's AC Teleport, it's extremely good for getting out of combos and even for general movement.
And overall, I would say that it's better than AC Agility.

But I'll also say M2 is another char that is slightly underrated.

Pichu also has some of the worst tech rolls in the game. Many characters can just preemptively cover his tech in place AND his tiny tech rolls. For example ...

Another fair point. I'm not trying to ignore his faults, there are some tragic things about playing this char. He does get straight dumpstered in a few different scenarios, and techroll situations are probably the worst just for that reason.

So yea he's very easy to combo, easy to CG, easy to tech chase, dies early, has terrible range, lots of unusable moves, lacks combos on most on the cast, all this overshadows his above average speed and mobility.

You aren't wrong at all, except for the bold part, and overshadowing his speed/mobility. What happens in fighting games, near the end of the meta, mobility is usually more important than other qualities; Since the neutral is so figured out, it becomes more crucial to have more control over positioning.

Unusable moves, again I'm thinking you mean the self damage ones here. It's always a trade-off, but Electric moves have a negative Smash-DI modifier.

Fair/Dair, Jolt, Fsmash, Skull Bash, even Thunder and Pummel have their place (Pichu/Pikachu have the fastest Pummel)

To provide a counterpoint to say that Pichu lacks combos, I'll need to step into TheoryLand for a minute:
(not entirely theory, I've performed what I'm about to talk about)

Pichu can use AutoCancel Agility during a combo (on reaction to opp DI/SDI) to continue the combo,
or otherwise position himself favorably for the situation following it.

AC Agility is also important for extending tech-chases, and following up after a combo is done.

There is still more to be discovered for this application of AC Agility, there is pixel-perfect stuff that is very hard.
/TheoryLand

A Pichu can easily beat inexperienced players, or players that don't know the MU....but using that data would make for a dishonest tier list placement, it can't be biased in a character's favor with uneven player skill and MU ignorance.

There isn't really anything underrated about G&W or Pichu, I would bet any sum of money that neither of these characters see any meaningful or consistent competitive results increase until this game dies.

Not trying to be biased with uneven player skill at all, you are correct that a Tier List needs even skill and matchup knowledge.

I personally think G&W is trash, but he has some stuff that's cool (EC Bair > Bair can shieldbreak).
Not trying to argue for that char tho, he can stay in the dumpster.

I'm curious what you mean by 'meaningful or consistent competitive results'?
Like top 8 at major tournaments?
Getting out of Pools?

We gotta take baby steps with an underrepresented char.

I would take a bet like that if I didn't have Student Loans and other debt to pay off. I'm still not in a position to actively attend things anyway. But a long term bet like within 2 years placing in a certain range or something. I don't (and won't) have the money to back that up for a while though.

TL; DR

Pichu has special qualities that set him apart from his peers in the Tier List
Despite having several flaws, one could say crippling flaws, his other qualities are more important,
and still under-explored.

And I don't think just anyone can play him either. You need to have:
- Godlike DI
- Godlike SmashDI
- Perfect Movement
- Extensive understanding of neutral and punish game
- Unbreakable mindset

So basically TAS fingers and top player skill LOL

And all that work is better put into characters that could reasonably take a major.
But if we are talking about the Tier List, Pichu could be pushed to new heights.

EDIT: I'm not trying to argue Pichu can dethrone anyone, but he is easily as strong as 14th-15th

 

[Ten of Nine]

WALL OF TEXT

I've seen KDJ's early pichu, from when the meta was much slower. And Ryan Ford does have a good Pichu. But I wouldn't say people who put their tournament life on other characters as taking it to the highest skill ceiling.



By this I'm assuming you mean 'can't get by', and that you're referring to a playstyle where you limit yourself to moves that don't damage you and throws. You aren't going to find full punishes by limiting yourself like that.

Obviously Pichu is light, and up to a certain point, he's pretty much going to die to any random stray hit. He needs to play a very campy, movement centered neutral. When you hit a certain percent threshold, you actually don't care about your percent any more at all, and can just zip around the stage and see if people can even get close to catching you. 'Get a lead and camp' has always been a strategy in fighting games, and Pichu is a char that can do it.


Do you think I would bring up something like AutoCancel Agility if I didn't know what I was talking about?

And why are you trying to talk about AutoCancel Agility if you can't perform it consistently?

It's been known about on the Pichu boards for a number of years now, so obviously I'm not the only one. I didn't learn about it there, however, I found it through my own testing.



Agility is basically an 8-way Airdash, and he has the variation of Tilt and Smash angles. So yes you can vary the distance. Sometimes it does get predictable and you get Usmashed. It's no different from any other characters movement techniques in that regard. But usually, you get to pick a spot and go there, with enough options to keep people from covering everything. Sometimes you get in bad position, but again, that will happen.

Landing on the stage isn't the only way to get an autocancel, btw. You can do Rising AC Agility onto platforms.

His rolls are really good (4th, 5th best) and I use them frequently to get back to a neutral where I'm fighting from a spacing I choose.

And I'll agree with you on Mewtwo's AC Teleport, it's extremely good for getting out of combos and even for general movement.
And overall, I would say that it's better than AC Agility.

But I'll also say M2 is another char that is slightly underrated.



Another fair point. I'm not trying to ignore his faults, there are some tragic things about playing this char. He does get straight dumpstered in a few different scenarios, and techroll situations are probably the worst just for that reason.




You aren't wrong at all, except for the bold part, and overshadowing his speed/mobility. What happens in fighting games, near the end of the meta, mobility is usually more important than other qualities; Since the neutral is so figured out, it becomes more crucial to have more control over positioning.

Unusable moves, again I'm thinking you mean the self damage ones here. It's always a trade-off, but Electric moves have a negative Smash-DI modifier.

Fair/Dair, Jolt, Fsmash, Skull Bash, even Thunder and Pummel have their place (Pichu/Pikachu have the fastest Pummel)

To provide a counterpoint to say that Pichu lacks combos, I'll need to step into TheoryLand for a minute:
(not entirely theory, I've performed what I'm about to talk about)

Pichu can use AutoCancel Agility during a combo (on reaction to opp DI/SDI) to continue the combo,
or otherwise position himself favorably for the situation following it.

AC Agility is also important for extending tech-chases, and following up after a combo is done.

There is still more to be discovered for this application of AC Agility, there is pixel-perfect stuff that is very hard.
/TheoryLand



Not trying to be biased with uneven player skill at all, you are correct that a Tier List needs even skill and matchup knowledge.

I personally think G&W is trash, but he has some stuff that's cool (EC Bair > Bair can shieldbreak).
Not trying to argue for that char tho, he can stay in the dumpster.

I'm curious what you mean by 'meaningful or consistent competitive results'?
Like top 8 at major tournaments?
Getting out of Pools?

We gotta take baby steps with an underrepresented char.

I would take a bet like that if I didn't have Student Loans and other debt to pay off. I'm still not in a position to actively attend things anyway. But a long term bet like within 2 years placing in a certain range or something. I don't (and won't) have the money to back that up for a while though.

TL; DR

Pichu has special qualities that set him apart from his peers in the Tier List
Despite having several flaws, one could say crippling flaws, his other qualities are more important,
and still under-explored.

And I don't think just anyone can play him either. You need to have:
- Godlike DI
- Godlike SmashDI
- Perfect Movement
- Extensive understanding of neutral and punish game
- Unbreakable mindset

So basically TAS fingers and top player skill LOL

And all that work is better put into characters that could reasonably take a major.
But if we are talking about the Tier List, Pichu could be pushed to new heights.

EDIT: I'm not trying to argue Pichu can dethrone anyone, but he is easily as strong as 14th-15th

Fair and experienced response, it's pretty clear here that you know what you are talking about.

My last paragraph can be taken literally. I don't think there will be any increase in a Pichu's placement at any major events.
You might see an outlier result where a Pichu beats a lot of the people that have never seen a good one before (even top 100 players), but that would be strictly MU ignorance. Again this is all my own personal opinion based on experience watching and playing the character, but I don't feel that Pichu is even worth promotion or play since Pikachu should 100% be played instead (having a much better chance at effecting the meta)

I do encourage everyone to give me crap though if it does happen. But as of now even a character as supposedly bad as Kirby has far better repeated results. I understand he does have 2 very good players (Cereal Rabbit and Triple R) but that's all part of it and makes the character worth discussing in my opinion.

 

[Popertop]

man I really wasn't expecting someone to be so reasonable, I've had some struggles on Smashboards ;p

yeah exactly, Pikachu is still underplayed despite being literally top 10

and yup, you are outlining exactly the type of situation that would happen if a Pichu started to place

people would learn what he struggles against and it would be back to square one


cheers Ten of Nine, its been a pleasure

 

[Ten of Nine]

It would be cool to see someone take Pichu seriously again (I wish this for every under-repped character).

I'm still surprised Pikachu or Doctor Mario don't have more rep after all these years of Axe and Shroomed. Same goes for Yoshi, a good Yoshi is a pain in the butt to play no matter the MU. And I think secretly a lot of the top 100 are glad they don't see more of these characters (or they'd have to learn more weird MUs).

 

[-ACE-]

Doc is untapped.

 

[Popertop]

For sure. You have a few more hoops to jump through to be a consistent Yoshi (Shield Drop, ECE, Parry)
I heard Vectorman was coming back


And Doc has a viable OoS option in Up-B cancel

Shroomed was apparently learning it before he switched to Sheik

 

[Ten of Nine]

For sure. You have a few more hoops to jump through to be a consistent Yoshi (Shield Drop, ECE, Parry)
I heard Vectorman was coming back


And Doc has a viable OoS option in Up-B cancel

Shroomed was apparently learning it before he switched to Sheik

You probably might have already seen, but check out PTJon's Doctor Mario if you haven't. His last VODs using the Doc, he's Up-B cancelling OoS like a mad man and even comboing FFers after the confirm.

Doc's CC > 18 damage Dsmash is what I fear the most, plus he's heavy so it's usable for a while.

 

[-ACE-]

Another thing I don't see from docs (against fastfallers) is uthrow and perfect wd to follow DI into pivot utilt or pivot usmash. Very solid DI trap. I also find his cg fairly easy and not many people are consistent with it.

 

[Hemwick]

It's already been scientifically proven that Luigi is mid-tier.

No

 

[atara]

Some tier inflation going on here. SS tier?

S - Fox Marth Falco
A - Sheik Puff
B - Peach ICs Falcon
C - Pikachu Samus Yoshi
D - Luigi Ganon Doc
F - YLink Mario DK Link Mewtwo Roy Pichu
G - G&W Ness (EDIT: Zelda) Bowser Kirby

 

[faroIN]

Ya but where is Zelda? A atara

 

[Nola]

Why?

C.O.K. What matchups make puff and sheik not in the same tier as Marth/Falco? All 4 of them have matchups that are evenish.

Not OP but my tier list is almost the same. If you asked me why, I'd say that both Marth and Falco have even MUs with Fox, while Sheik and Puff get shrekt by him. Being the most played character, it's pretty significant.

 

[-ACE-]

Not OP but my tier list is almost the same. If you asked me why, I'd say that both Marth and Falco have even MUs with Fox, while Sheik and Puff get shrekt by him. Being the most played character, it's pretty significant.

Do you consider mango's fox good? I do. And I see hbox and plup going toe to toe with his fox (and other top foxes) regularly with those characters. So I think "shrekt" is a big exaggeration. I don't buy into the "hbox is just amazing" philosophy. I think he is showing us what puff is capable of. I personally don't feel that there is much difference at all between the 2nd and 5th best character in the game, and although fox is inarguably the best, I do not feel that it is by a margin that warrants his own tier. It is surprising to me that so many people put sheik and puff as a tier below marth and falco. Buy hey, that's just me. All 4 of them have comparable matchup spreads imho.

 

[atara]

Fox/Marth/Falco have no losing matchups. Sheik loses pretty clearly to Fox and ICs (even though Plup is really good) and Puff loses to Fox (HBox, Mango, Armada, Leffen all agree) and probably Marth as well. That's what makes the tier to me.

And then Peach/Falcon/ICs all have at least one godawful matchup (Puff/Falco/Peach).

 

[-ACE-]

Fox/Marth/Falco have no losing matchups. Sheik loses pretty clearly to Fox and ICs (even though Plup is really good) and Puff loses to Fox and probably Marth as well. That's what makes the tier to me.

And then Peach/Falcon/ICs all have at least one godawful matchup (Puff/Falco/Peach).

IMO...

It's impossible for more than one character to have no losing matchups. Falco loses slightly to fox, as does marth, which is closer imo. Sheik loses to fox as well, perhaps more than falco/marth, but the difference is basically negligible at top level. Same goes for puff (we constantly see the best foxes in the world lose to puff). Sheik doesn't lose to IC's. It's extremely tedious compared to her other matchups and few sheiks play the matchup well, which results in sheiks having trouble and picking secondaries. In reality it's very evenish. Marth and falco don't have great matchups with IC's either. Not exactly sure but puff probably has the best matchup vs IC's after peach/fox. Falco has close matchups with puff, climbers, peach. Marth has close matchups with sheik, puff, Falcon... And doesn't beat peach or IC's by a big margin. TBH niether marth or falco can sleep on Ganon, while sheik and puff murder him.

This is why I feel they have comparable MU spreads.

 

[atara]

I would say Marth beats ICs pretty solidly... SmashG0d vs Chudat comes to mind as an example of what the matchup looks like if Marth plays it right. Considering that Chu has way more experience in the matchup I think it says something that SG has such control of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3XCdt05v9Y

"Falco loses slightly to fox, as does marth, which is closer imo." - there are Falcos and Marths (well one Marth) who have gone undefeated against top Foxes for long periods of time -- we've never seen anything like that from a Sheik or Puff since Captain Jack and Mango respectively. HBox is really good, too, so it's not that.

"Sheik doesn't lose to IC's. It's extremely tedious compared to her other matchups" - this is just straight up top tier privilege IMO; nobody would accept that, for example, Falcon (or Pikachu for that matter) theoretically beats Puff because he can win the neutral 15 times a stock with upair. Just because Sheik is faster and wins the neutral doesn't mean she wins the matchup. Nobody plays like that. ICs win because they take sets, always have, and if I had to bet, always will. People just expect Sheik to win because she's a top tier.

"TBH neither Marth nor Falco can sleep on Ganon" -- Sheik and Puff can't sleep on Doc but those characters won't make it that far in bracket anyway I would have agreed if you had said Samus though

 

[Popertop]

You probably might have already seen, but check out PTJon's Doctor Mario if you haven't. His last VODs using the Doc, he's Up-B cancelling OoS like a mad man and even comboing FFers after the confirm.

Doc's CC > 18 damage Dsmash is what I fear the most, plus he's heavy so it's usable for a while.

Do you have a link to vods? I'm having trouble finding anything with a cursory search.

Another thing I don't see from docs (against fastfallers) is uthrow and perfect wd to follow DI into pivot utilt or pivot usmash. Very solid DI trap. I also find his cg fairly easy and not many people are consistent with it.

I teamed with a Doc player (neskamikaze) in teams at Forte 2, and the one match we had on stream we finished the last stock with a team chaingrab (I kinda dropped it but we had optimal position, so he was super dead anyways)

 

[Ten of Nine]

Do you have a link to vods? I'm having trouble finding anything with a cursory search.



I teamed with a Doc player (neskamikaze) in teams at Forte 2, and the one match we had on stream we finished the last stock with a team chaingrab (I kinda dropped it but we had optimal position, so he was super dead anyways)

If you search "ptjon dr." or "ptjon doctor" - then filter by uploaded date
https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=CAI%3D&q=ptjon+dr.

All of his vids from about 8 months ago to a year and a half ago he came back for a period before stopping Melee and had Up-Bs on lock. More than any other Doc I had ever seen in streamed matches.

 

[-ACE-]

A atara I mean yes marth beats IC's but just like you said the matchup must be played well, the same logic can be applied to sheik vs IC's. Using md/va as another example, plank and hat play the sheik vs IC's mu very well and could get wins occasionally over chu/nintendude despite chu/nintendude being stupidly higher in skill.

I see your points, but I'm using some super theory bros and not just results in my opinions. That's kinda what i do lol, been a thorough theorizer of melee for over a decade. Tedious neutral game doesn't factor in much when I analyze top level. I feel falco beats climbers, peach, and even puff (close one) but we see top falcos lose to these characters all the time, because it's hard to keep up the necessary neutral game patience/decision making. Similarly I think marth beats sheik slightly at top level, although we often see sheiks win as the matchup is much more straightforward for sheik and less technically and mentally demanding than it is for marth.

 

[faroIN]

I agree with Ace's approach to the tier list. If the tier list is based on results instead of character ability ceilings and potential, the entire tier list really just becomes a reflection and reinforcement of the current competitive meta. Theorizing character potential means the tier list can evolve more fluidly as more individual character metas are developed. Let's say something is discovered with YL or whoever and could theoretically shift a few MUs more in his favor. It'd be silly to wait for those situations to happen a few times in a tournament setting just to solidify that YL became a better character.

 

[-ACE-]

I agree with Ace's approach to the tier list. If the tier list is based on results instead of character ability ceilings and potential, the entire tier list really just becomes a reflection and reinforcement of the current competitive meta. Theorizing character potential means the tier list can evolve more fluidly as more individual character metas are developed. Let's say something is discovered with YL or whoever and could theoretically shift a few MUs more in his favor. It'd be silly to wait for those situations to happen a few times in a tournament setting just to solidify that YL became a better character.

I've often suggested half-heartedly that there should be 2 lists, one for results alone and one for character ability ceilings/potential/matchup spreads. I think it's a good idea but I don't think enough people care that much lol.

 

[iAmMatt]

I've often suggested half-heartedly that there should be 2 lists, one for results alone and one for character ability ceilings/potential/matchup spreads. I think it's a good idea but I don't think enough people care that much lol.

To be fair we ended 2015 with a community tier list and an official tier list. Maybe the character potential tier list could take the place of the community tier list?