Tier List Opinions?

[-ACE-]

To be fair we ended 2015 with a community tier list and an official tier list. Maybe the character potential tier list could take the place of the community tier list?

True, they both tried to accomplish the same thing tho and ended up being a mixture of results and theory. IIRC the community tier list had a few things better than the top player list.

 

[Popertop]

If the tier list is based on results instead of character ability ceilings and potential, the entire tier list really just becomes a reflection and reinforcement of the current competitive meta.

a tier list is intended to reflect the current meta

Theorizing character potential means the tier list can evolve more fluidly as more individual character metas are developed.

theory lists are good because of this reason, but they aren't a real tier list, because those factor in results and common practice

but both are important to have a more complete picture of the game

if you ignore theory, then you miss out on potential (usually hidden behind an execution gateway, or held back by a certain matchup)
if you ignore results, then you miss out on the actual history and common practice. This information is important for analyzing where the game has come from, because most often, metas are cyclical; Chars rise and fall in popularity, strats are revisited, etc.

 

[Mo0seHead]

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

C Tier:

D Tier:

E Tier:

F Tier:

G Tier:

Ok ok, now I really want to get my opinions out on the whole tier list thing so I'm just gonna make it neat and order it in bullets of most of the characters.

Fox

• Ok honestly I still don't really like idea that fox should be in his own tier (especially in PAL)
• Second, off I believe that the top four characters that I have above are almost basically even cause I feel like in theory if any of these characters had the strongest metagame growth then they would be seen as the best character or definitely, it's just that fox is that character with the strongest metagame
• Despite what I just I think that case would be slightly more difficult for sheik and marth

Falco

• Ok now I sorta understand Why people are thinking falco isn't second anymore but There is no way he's not top 3 in the game
• Ok now first off falco has no bad matchups and I'm not biased cause I duel main falco. I honestly think that falco beats both puff and peach and maybe goes even with peach but he still has the slight edge as proven with PPMD. Also, your looking at Wes vs. Armada and hbox with falco vs. floaties but like come on its the 2 best players in the world and no crap on wes but its just armada and hbox being the better player.
• For the falco representation, well I honestly don't know why he's dropped so much but I feel more that cause PP is gone people don't see falco as much so they don't feel that confident with him which I guess makes sense which makes like fricking no sense cause falco is still fricking amazing and with the fewer players falco isn't being as pushed in today's metagame as he was before
• Also, fox is higher cause he has more consistent matchups despite them both having even matchups

Sheik

• I don't really care about sheik to talk about her too much there is no way she's worse than marth with 3 very strong players that are all basically top ten being Shroomed, Swedish, and Plup who are all basically solo sheik mains
• Also, they have M2K which is also good

marth

• Holy ****ing **** I have no idea where this whole Marth is top 2 thing came from honestly
• For real I think people just like the idea of marth being top 2 cause he honestly is a really cool character, but no is looking at his slim results sometimes and his glaring weaknesses.
• First off he is pretty laggy with most of his moves being easily punished and his recovery, both can be exploited. The next weakness is that he really struggles to land making him easy to juggle in the air and he struggles to safely get out tech chases with his awful spotdodge and moves not fast enough like shine.
• Also, his matchups aren't actually as good as other characters. He goes even with the spacies but other than that he slightly goes even with sheik and falcon who both have a better argument for beating him than the opposite, He only beats peach (which almost all the top tiers beat) and may possibly beat puff. other than that he has wonky matchups with Pika and yoshi even making Japans best player rudolph and pewpewu opt to go fox against amsa
• Despite everything, I said Marth is an amazing character it's just that right now I can't see him as top 2 as everyone else is saying.

For the rest of the characters I don't really care about too much but I might write about them later but for now that's the gist of my opinions

 

[iAmMatt]

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

C Tier:

D Tier:

E Tier:

F Tier:

G Tier:

Ok ok, now I really want to get my opinions out on the whole tier list thing so I'm just gonna make it neat and order it in bullets of most of the characters.

Fox

• Ok honestly I still don't really like idea that fox should be in his own tier (especially in PAL)
• Second, off I believe that the top four characters that I have above are almost basically even cause I feel like in theory if any of these characters had the strongest metagame growth then they would be seen as the best character or definitely, it's just that fox is that character with the strongest metagame
• Despite what I just I think that case would be slightly more difficult for sheik and marth

Falco

• Ok now I sorta understand Why people are thinking falco isn't second anymore but There is no way he's not top 3 in the game
• Ok now first off falco has no bad matchups and I'm not biased cause I duel main falco. I honestly think that falco beats both puff and peach and maybe goes even with peach but he still has the slight edge as proven with PPMD. Also, your looking at Wes vs. Armada and hbox with falco vs. floaties but like come on its the 2 best players in the world and no crap on wes but its just armada and hbox being the better player.
• For the falco representation, well I honestly don't know why he's dropped so much but I feel more that cause PP is gone people don't see falco as much so they don't feel that confident with him which I guess makes sense which makes like fricking no sense cause falco is still fricking amazing and with the fewer players falco isn't being as pushed in today's metagame as he was before
• Also, fox is higher cause he has more consistent matchups despite them both having even matchups

Sheik

• I don't really care about sheik to talk about her too much there is no way she's worse than marth with 3 very strong players that are all basically top ten being Shroomed, Swedish, and Plup who are all basically solo sheik mains
• Also, they have M2K which is also good

marth

• Holy ****ing **** I have no idea where this whole Marth is top 2 thing came from honestly
• For real I think people just like the idea of marth being top 2 cause he honestly is a really cool character, but no is looking at his slim results sometimes and his glaring weaknesses.
• First off he is pretty laggy with most of his moves being easily punished and his recovery, both can be exploited. The next weakness is that he really struggles to land making him easy to juggle in the air and he struggles to safely get out tech chases with his awful spotdodge and moves not fast enough like shine.
• Also, his matchups aren't actually as good as other characters. He goes even with the spacies but other than that he slightly goes even with sheik and falcon who both have a better argument for beating him than the opposite, He only beats peach (which almost all the top tiers beat) and may possibly beat puff. other than that he has wonky matchups with Pika and yoshi even making Japans best player rudolph and pewpewu opt to go fox against amsa
• Despite everything, I said Marth is an amazing character it's just that right now I can't see him as top 2 as everyone else is saying.

For the rest of the characters I don't really care about too much but I might write about them later but for now that's the gist of my opinions

I agree with a lot of this tier list, but I would still make a couple changes:

I would remove sheik from s tier and move her to a tier. The only reason I would do this is because marth, fox, and falco sort of form this sort of triangle, where each character has the potential to destroy each character. Marth is still above sheik because top level marths have been performing well lately, while shroomed has been underperforming as of late. We also haven't seen a lot of sheik from m2k lately besides a few specific matchups like pika and falcon.

Finally someone who agrees that samus>pika. There has been much more top level samus rep than top level pika rep as of late, and top level pika rep has been underperforming. While I believe that samus and pika go even, samus has fewer disadvantages than pika

I believe puff beats falco, but her placement on your tier list is good because of her weaknesses. Puff can gimp falco at incredibly low percents because of falco's **** recovery.

I'm also very torn on how you placed your bottom tier characters because I feel that kirby is better than everyone thinks, but bowser has already proven to be better than several bottom tiers.

 

[-ACE-]

Good lawd sheik and puff are trash according to so many people lol

 

[Nola]

Good lawd sheik and puff are trash according to so many people lol

And don't be surprised if it mainly comes from Sheik and Puff players. I dual main Fox and Sheik myself, using Sheik for the EZ MU's (pretty much all but 3), but going fox vs profficient foxes (the ones that know how to play vs sheik); ICs and Puff. I may alsobust out the fox against other characters if I'm feeling it. My point is, I've played Sheik/Fox MU from both sides and man, you can take one punish to death in most cases. She is bad in the air vs jugglers as she can't come down reliably and has a ****ty combofood weight, but she's also bad trying to come back on stage (edgeguarding her is even more flowcharted than edgeguarding marth)

Sorry for the ramble, but my point is that sheik has too many weaknesses to be considered one of the best.
I remeber Armada saying once on stream that he could see why Fox Falco and Marth all have arguments for #1 in the game, but that there was absolutely no way to put Sheik on that level. His words were along the lines of "She has was too many weaknesses that, once spotted are easily abusable". And that comes from mister #1 player that plays vs Sheik on the daily.


Now. I wouldn't say they are trash. They're top tiers for sure, but I'd talk about a top 3 more than a top 4 (where no one seems to agree on the 4th member anyways)
My tier list would look like this. ------ are clear cut tier separations, the smaller ones are nuanced superiority

S+
-
S
--
S-
------- Top Tiers end here
A+
-------
A- High Tiers end here
-------
B+
--
B-
------- Viability ends here
C
-------
D
-------
E
-
E-

 

[CursedKaiju]

My tier list is similar to @Rpggames77 's tierlist

S Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:( and are switchable) ( and are switchable)
D Tier:
F Tier:
G Tier:( and are switchable)

 

[Mo0seHead]

I'm sorry cursed but that tier list makes no sense and yeah I'm to different ideas but this just makes you look like you've been playing the game for about 6 months. Please back up your reasons so I can try to understand your logic behind this

 

[-ACE-]

I'm sorry cursed but that tier list makes no sense and yeah I'm to different ideas but this just makes you look like you've been playing the game for about 6 months. Please back up your reasons so I can try to understand your logic behind this

It all depends on how much they weigh in results versus theory/potential/matchup spreads. Look at kira's latest tier list video. He acknowledges difficulty of execution for some characters/matchups but not for others. In theory, difficulty of execution matters very little, and neutral game matters more, as a crazy punish game is guaranteed. IRL, ease of execution certainly matters (this is part of the reason doc is virtually always ranked above mario, punish game being more reliable). Everyone has their own things they value so lists end up varying quite a bit. People should explain their decision making more often imo.

 

[CursedKaiju]

OK, so I mainly base my tier list from match-ups from my perspective (which is a handful of tournaments and playing with friends)
I personally believe that marth beats falco,peach and falcon and goes even with sheik,icies,puff and fox.
I believe that puff loses to fox, goes even with icies and marth and beats falco, falcon and peach.
Sheik loses to fox, puff and icies and goes even with peach,marth and falco but she beats falcon.
Falco loses to fox, marth,peach and puff, goes even with sheik and icies, and beats falcon.
Anything specific u want to ask i can explain in more detail

 

[Mo0seHead]

Dude I honestly don't know if your joking Examples being that you think puff and peach go even (If you think it was even why doesn't armada go peach against puff cause it honestly sucks) also you saying Icies and peach go even which I thought everyone knows that it sucks ass for Icies (which it defiantly does with examples of armada only losing one game to an Icies player in his whole career and mew2king only goes his basic peach against top level Icies and still wins says a lot if you ask me) Also what you said about Falcos Matchups makes you just sound like a scrub who has never plays those Matchups and just bases them off of videos where the Falco is probably just being outplayed. And if you still think that about Falco then just go back and watch PP videos. Also no, Falco does not loose to fox on any level and is probably the most even matchup in the game along with fox v marth. Actually you kinda sound more like a ****ty Falco player who's salty as crap and can't adapt and learn but hey What could say for all I know. Also from what I read it sounds like you think marth is the second best which already makes me think of you as a scrub. Just to gain some perspective for you m2k (Who's defiantly the best marth) thinks that marth is the 5th best and that's not outdated cause that's what he still voted for the current tier list, and he also thinks he loses to sheik, puff, fox, and ironically Falco who he thinks he loses the hardest too and before you call start to call bull**** you got to remember he played PP and Mango so he's gotten the most top level experience against Falco. Also marth is very overrated and you can read my thoughts and discuss his weaknesses above (which I bet you didn't read) also for you to claim you been to a handful of tournaments and play with your friends a bunch it's pretty laughable and I bet that you routinely never make it to round 3 of losers at your locals and never made it out of pools in your life. Please explain and try to back up your claims and especially about marth and Falco cause I don't think you have much to dish back

 

[Mo0seHead]

Also sorry I didn't realize I responded to you before curse but all of that above still applys though

 

[faroIN]

Moosehead, relax pls. This thread is called "Tier List Opinions," not "Tier List Facts." He stated how he determines tiers and said he was open for questions, and then you basically just called him a ****ty player. Yelling at somebody =/= constructive discussion.

 

[CursedKaiju]

-snip-

OK first, i never said that peach and puff go even
second, never said that icies and peach go even
third, while pp is good at most of the matchups i think falco loses he isnt around, and no other top falco has really proved me wrong. When was the last time mango's falco or wesballz have beaten either hbox or armada. Neither one of them have beaten m2ks marth recently either. Also the only foxs that lose to falco are those without matchup experience, players like ice struggle with falco cause he doesn't have any to practice against in Germany. Armada destroys both mango and westballz in the fox v falco match. Leffen beats west most of the time and loses to magnos falco sometimes, but its not so bad or so consistent where I would say that falco wins the match.
I did read your comments about marth but he can still chain grab and gimp spacies, he doesn't really have to outplay them that hard. Armada has gone on to say that peach is within the top 3 worst matchups for peach. Plus most falcons do terrible against him in general. As for m2k while he is the best marth that doesnt really mean much, in all honesty without pp who else is even a real contender. Plus there have been so many times where m2k said he doesnt want to learn something, he can really be counted on, because he isn't willing to learn the match ups.Also for someone who says that he loses to sheik and proceeds to beat plup isn't just luck. I can understand that it is rough to beat puff, but players like ppu have done (granted not alot) but he doesnt even try, he just picks fox for it. As for him verses spacies it seems that ppmd does significantly better verses spacies, (and pretty much every other marth player as well as long as they dont choke)
Also i have made to top 8 in a 60 man tournament, i just dont go anymore because of a lack of transportation

 

[-ACE-]

Falco does not loose to fox on any level

Lul

from what I read it sounds like you think marth is the second best which already makes me think of you as a scrub

I think Marth is 2nd and I've beaten plenty of people in tournament that would 4 stock you lol. PPMD thinks marth is 2nd last time I checked also. If nothing else he's every bit as good as falco. His ground game is insane... DD, grab range, attack range, punish game are all insane. IRL/results wise his linear recovery and trouble getting ko's when his opponent is above mid% factors in, but when you see a marth player abusing what he should the relevance of his weaknesses starts to fade. When he has no combos into ko he can literally just win neutral until he takes the stock. At top level neutral matters most.

Falco is much more susceptible to oos options because of his size and extra frame of jumpsquat compared to fox. Fox's speed and neutral options can overwhelm him, and at top level fox's punish game is every bit as good as falco's.

Although m2k is a wealth of smash knowledge, the one thing you can't take to heart is his tier list opinions. He has always underrated the characters he plays while overrating falco and puff.

Try not to insult so much. Even if you had room to talk its still cringe worthy.

 

[iAmMatt]

Falco does not loose to fox on any level and is probably the most even matchup in the game along with fox v marth

This is probably the most screwed up statement I've ever read on this website. If falco doesn't lose to fox on any level then why do they go even? Shouldn't fox always beat falco if falco doesn't lose to him on any level? Also, if marth vs fox is even then why do people counterpick fox with marth? I believe falco fox and marth have a sort of triangle where one beats the other, fox>falco>marth>fox, etc. To elaborate, there is no such thing as one "best character". All top 3 have their advantages and disadvantages that the others cripple to or exploit, respectively.

 

[-ACE-]

Fox has no losing matchups imo. His worst scenario is marth on FD. If it wasn't for FD i couldn't really say that marth has a better matchup with fox than falco does. To be clear I'm talking top level.

 

[Synnett]

Well there's no optimism for Bowser lmao.

 

[Jeeeeeed?]

I've been playing for about 2 and a half years by now and I feel most People might not agree with me but whatever.

SS Tier:

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

The rest I don't really care about and yeah the falcon in the same Tier as Marth and sheik isn't standard but I think falcon is actually a bit underrated like how armada thinks. Remember I haven't been playing as long as others so don't take this as like fact or something

 

[-ACE-]

People might not agree with me but whatever.

It's all good man, solid arguments can be made for all your designations. Falcon is actually a lot better than many people think. It goes back to the whole theory vs results thing. Theory isn't all BS, it's based on facts. A lot of people dislike wizzy's style but when he's on it's close to optimal. You can see when he plays m2k and is playing well, he tends to win on big stages and lose on small ones. This is because m2k cant handle falcon's dash dance extremely well. M2k's neutral, although very beast, is weak compared to his NASTY punish game. He likes to skip neutral whenever possible and go straight to punish/gimp. Wizzy has to win on at least one small stage to win the set, which is easier said than done since he can't exploit holes in m2k's neutral (not enough room). In contrast, n0ne's decisions are so abnormal (yet effective) he can beat out m2k in atypical situations and snake a win. This ****s with m2k's head as well, which helps him. Playing falcon optimally is simply difficult, and can be frustrating. He has to be played somewhat meticulously and systematically, without being too flowchartish at the wrong times. He has to be played kinda like how PPMD' s falco approached the puff matchup back in the day. Exploiting strengths to the fullest in a way that masks the weaknesses/causes them to lose relevance.

 

[iAmMatt]

I've been playing for about 2 and a half years by now and I feel most People might not agree with me but whatever.

SS Tier:

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

The rest I don't really care about and yeah the falcon in the same Tier as Marth and sheik isn't standard but I think falcon is actually a bit underrated like how armada thinks. Remember I haven't been playing as long as others so don't take this as like fact or something

I actually completely agree with this tier list. While puff>peach in that mu, that doesn't mean puff>peach across all mu's. Puff has more exploitable weaknesses than peach, which is why she should be placed lower.

Well there's no optimism for Bowser lmao.

I'm actually very curious on where you would put bowser on a tier list. While I haven't personally seen your bowser in action, you've clearly demonstrated knowledge of the character that would put you a cut above the rest

 

[capusa27]

Since discussion has started again, I would like to post what I think are the most relevant. My tier list is as follows:

--




Fox--Fox should win vs the characters not named Falco and Marth. However, I think Falco and Marth are both close to even (they can very easily be overwhelmed on small stages, but the larger, flatter stages limit Fox's pressure and allow him to be walled easier.
Falco--should have a better matchup spread than Marth and can more effectively apply pressure with lasers and high priority hitboxes. In my opinion, Falco is better than Marth because he can limit options better than Marth on the ground, but doesn't have a better ground game than Marth.
Marth--Suffers from lack of kill options at high percents like Falco but is forced to engage his opponent because of lack of projectile. Down-tilt while amazing, can be jumped over and punished. This wouldn't be that significant if Marth had a lingering hitbox, but unfortunately, Marth really only has N-air. Marth is also very fragile, and has to be very aware of his spacing, inherently hurting Marth's consistency.

One thing that I've never really understood is his supposedly bad matchups (Shiek, Falcon, and Pikachu). In my opinion, these matchup struggles boil down to lack of consistency (especially in the punish and edgeguarding game), limited use of CC, and improper threat identification. I don't know about Yoshi, though. However, maybe if you just play like a lame jerk enough, you can squirm out a win in the matchup, especially on Yoshi's, FoD, and FD.

Thoughts and opinions, everyone!

 

[-ACE-]

I think puff is DEFINITELY above peach. But that's just me. I actually think Armada's peach is more perfect than Hbox's puff... So basically puff is more untapped regarding what we witness at top level. Puff is a more viable character for solo maining and winning a major imo. Peach can lose to Falcon and even Ganon, something you'll rarely see a a puff of hbox's level do. I think puff has a slightly better mu with marth, and fox/falco/sheik are very close.

 

[iAmMatt]

I actually think Armada's peach is more perfect than Hbox's puff

I think that this is what I'm mostly basing my claim off of. I also think that peach's punish game is far more solid than puff's, and puff's is more readable. To clarify, puff's punish game leaves a lot of room for the opponent to get around, where peach's covers more ground. When it comes to fast fallers, I think peach takes it over puff. However, due to their slow(er) playstyles and movement options and puff's range, puff takes more floaty mu's than peach.

 

[-ACE-]

I think that this is what I'm mostly basing my claim off of. I also think that peach's punish game is far more solid than puff's, and puff's is more readable. To clarify, puff's punish game leaves a lot of room for the opponent to get around, where peach's covers more ground. When it comes to fast fallers, I think peach takes it over puff. However, due to their slow(er) playstyles and movement options and puff's range, puff takes more floaty mu's than peach.

When it comes to punish, all puffs miss guaranteed rest opportunities. When hbox is resting every roll in, taking advantage of every jab reset into rest, platform tech traps into rest, etc.... puff's punish game is right around the top. I agree it's usually more readable tho. I can't really say with fastfallers, it's really close. Both Armada and Hbox have certain foxes they have trouble with, but honestly i think Hbox would have a better chance at beating all the top foxes with puff than Armada would beating all the top foxes with peach (although it would be close and anything could happen). But since peach has trouble with puffs, more trouble vs marth, falcon, Ganon, and some other floaties (puff aerial dash dance too strong), I put puff in a tier higher, viability wise.

 

[Popertop]

I think that this is what I'm mostly basing my claim off of. I also think that peach's punish game is far more solid than puff's, and puff's is more readable. To clarify, puff's punish game leaves a lot of room for the opponent to get around, where peach's covers more ground. When it comes to fast fallers, I think peach takes it over puff. However, due to their slow(er) playstyles and movement options and puff's range, puff takes more floaty mu's than peach.

You are right, Puff punish game is based more on hard reads than Peach's
But Puff also has Rest on any punish that isn't perfect (or doesn't keep her in hitstun)

And good points ACE, I generally agree with all of that


but you guys, after I talked all that **** about Pichu's potential, I've been playing like straight ass with him, lol

nevertheless, I will continue my campaign for King of C Tier!

 

[KrispyKabbage]

My New Tier List (As Of April 6th 2017)
(I would have just edited the old one but we've already gone through 3 pages so I decided to put it here)


SS- Fox, Falco
S-Marth, Shiek, Puff, Peach
A-Falcon, ICs,
B-Pikachu, Samus
C-Doc,Yoshi, Luigi, Mario
D-Ganon, Young Link, DK
E-Link, G&W
F-Ness, Roy, Mewtwo
G-Pichu, Zelda, Kirby, Bowser


Also, I'm aware that a lot of you stop caring past about #8.

In this one the actual tiers matter more than they did in the last one I made EX: Mario's placement.

 

[iAmMatt]

B-Pikachu, Samus

I always wonder why people place pika above samus. Samus has more top level rep and more results, so why is pika higher on a lot of tier lists?

 

[CursedKaiju]

KrispyKabbage what makes you place mario after luigi and why is ness above roy and mewtwo?

 

[-ACE-]

Luigi is absolutely better than Mario. He's one of the fastest characters in the game and has nasty hitboxes and combos. His perfect wd is faster than any character's dash, and when properly controlled with shield stops, allows for a very powerful neutral.

 

[CursedKaiju]

i meant like why luigi then mario, and not another character

 

[-ACE-]

i meant like why luigi then mario, and not another character

Yeah personally i think luigi is better than everyone in his C tier.

 

[KrispyKabbage]

I always wonder why people place pika above samus. Samus has more top level rep and more results, so why is pika higher on a lot of tier lists?

Axe, no reason other than axe. Without axe, pika would be nothing.

 

[KrispyKabbage]

KrispyKabbage what makes you place mario after luigi and why is ness above roy and mewtwo?

Mario after Luigi because I personally think that Mario is a bit better than the official tier list says.

I put ness above those two because I think he slightly edges them out with DJCing, he's still trash though, so I kept him in the same tier.
But what the hell do I know, my account was just opened on December 18th.

 

[KrispyKabbage]

Just looked back at some of you guys' tier lists and I saw that some of you had Kirby below Bowser. Could you please explain to me how Kirby is worse than Bowser.

Also, I just want to point out (and I know this one thing alone doesn't prove which of the two is better) that Kirby is tied for the fastest with a 3 frame jumpsquat whereas bowser is the slowest with an 8 frame jumpsquat. Which also means that Kirby is tied for the fastest possible time to put out a wavedash, and bowser has the slowest possible time to put out a wavedash.

 

[Nola]

Just looked back at some of you guys' tier lists and I saw that some of you had Kirby below Bowser. Could you please explain to me how Kirby is worse than Bowser.

Also, I just want to point out (and I know this one thing alone doesn't prove which of the two is better) that Kirby is tied for the fastest with a 3 frame jumpsquat whereas bowser is the slowest with an 8 frame jumpsquat. Which also means that Kirby is tied for the fastest possible time to put out a wavedash, and bowser has the slowest possible time to put out a wavedash.

IMO Bowser is the definitive worst character in the roster, people don't put much tought ranking the last 2 tiers though

 

[ssb Recon]

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

C Tier:

D Tier:

E Tier:

F Tier:

G Tier:

I agree with the low tiers but this is how i see the SAB Tiers

S Tier:

A Tier:

B Tier:

Samus has been up and coming now more than ICs, but ICs are still good.
And Falco has been falling off lately and people are honestly just getting better and bopping his recovery.
Even mang0 has been opting for Marth over Falco in some occasions.

 

[iAmMatt]

Axe, no reason other than axe. Without axe, pika would be nothing.

And this is precisely why samus>pika. Samus has much more top level rep than pika. While pika has been proven to be able to compete with the top tiers, there are far more examples of samus doing it better.

 

[bonesaw1]

Eh **** it I'll make an actual sorted list.

SS
S
A
B
C
D
E
F

My main positions that don't follow the current tier list is putting Pikachu a tier below Samus, putting Yoshi several places down, and dropping Zelda to the bottom tier. A lot of 'position switch' changes (Marth above Falco, Peach above Puff, etc) are practically ties. I'd maybe also put YLink one place higher but Mario has such little representation it's hard for me to really adequately judge his practical usability as opposed to theoretical usability.

-I think Samus has less match ups in which she's firmly countered than Pika, giving her more flexibility and less of a chance of being hard stopped just because she went up against a Sheik.
-With amsa being quiet lately, I have a hard time believing Yoshi isn't overrated as people discover how to more properly deal with his char specific tech, and how to beat him down and abuse his inferior defensive options on the ground. At best I'd maybe move him up into the B tier.
-I just think Zelda is trash. Don't really understand her placement on the tier list at the moment.

 

[CursedKaiju]

And this is precisely why samus>pika. Samus has much more top level rep than pika. While pika has been proven to be able to compete with the top tiers, there are far more examples of samus doing it better.

Axe, no reason other than axe. Without axe, pika would be nothing.

i have to question your logic here, sense you guys say that axe is the only reason that pika is good then do you make the same arguments for why puff and peach are doing well?