Thunders' Combo.* Udated Again* 9~27~06

Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#1

I DIDNT INVENT THIS, GIVE NO CREDIT TO ME.
I've had a lot of people ask me what this is whenever I mention it, so I decided to take the liberty to explain it all at once to all who would like to know about it, this might be because of me reffereing to it as "Thunder's combo", sorry, but I guess it's a Washington thing, lol. Also, If some of you didn't already know, Thunder's is a Japanese Fox player, one of the best one's In Japan too I believe, so I DIDNT MAKE THIS UP, but I don't know as a fact that he did either, so just admire the combo and not the possible inventor or anything like that.
This is actually a useful read/topic, so I suggest you check it out, it should be worth it by far. If you've seen this before, don't bother commenting and saying that's old, gtfo Silent Wolf. If you just want info on the genral combo, look at all the blue text, but I'd read it all If i were you.


Also, It has come to my attention that another member and possibly not the only other memeber who's done ths has started a very simlilar topic to this one in the past, I apologize for making a topic over yours, I didn't see it.
But His name on the baords is "Blind" and here's his topic on the shine>wavedash>jab etc:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=64666&highlight=reset

Minor data can be found on this in the thread of the Fox movements tricks, but nothing different than here, if you've seen this thread, don't bother with thunders' combo there.

Here's the structure of the combo:

You must start the combo with a shine or anything that combos into shine and can lead into this after the shine, such as drill, nuetral aerial etc. It only works on certain characters who fall from shine For this thread, it's basically info on initiation on Fox and Falco) or characters that don't fall from shine but DIed so they do fall from shine. Some characters go further than others, Imyself am not exactly how sure, just look at Foxandfalco's shine guide, it might be in there, if not, look in any other guides on Fox, or the statistics list made by Mew2King. After shining them, WD out of shine (waveshine) then immediately jab them while they're on the ground. If you jab successfully, they should be unable to move and are forced to stand up in place, but if they are holding a direction, they wil roll that direction out of the initial combo, but I think they can't do that until a certain percentage, but It's not a very high one. They can also do a get-up attack if they are pressing a button that triggers that.. As they are getting up (Don't wait for them too though, at least not in the intitial combo) immediately do a falling shffld uair on top of them, this should pop them up behind you if they didn't DI It. This is when you usmash them from wherever they may be. If you performed this on a Fox/Falco from 0-Whatever % they're at now, you should be able to dash and catch them before they hit the ground with a grab, and then chain throw till you can't and do whatever from there, but the grab addition isn't part of the initial combo, just one of the many other ways of doing this combo and working different methods in, which I will explain later. There are several different ways to get out of this, but don't expect people who have never seen this to get out of it on purpose. You can hold down and tech the uair at low percentages, or smash DI and tech it at any percentage. I beleive they can DI the uair to far for you to reach, but only in one direction. Like I said before, they can hold left or right before the jab to roll that way. There are a few ways of getting out of it, but once you try it, you'll see how great it is. There are many ways of starting it and following it up, it's too good.
Basically: Aerial>shine>jab>falling uair>usmash="Thunders' Combo"


If you would like to see a vid of this combo being used, here's one of my tourney matches. Look for it in there if you must, you'll know when you see it, it might hapen a little fast though, lol.
Link to vid: (If you didn't read any of this don't watch it)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=66rUNtzo-pE <-----The Video<----
The combo is at 1:12-1:15. Ignore my mistakes and the fight, the vid's for the combo. Also If you noticed, he DIed down to try to tech the uair, but FAILED, lol. You can usmash them there too obviously.


Other ways of doing similar things:

Okay so as I mentioned a few times before, there are other variations to this sequence, meaning many other ways of starting it, and/or finishing it:

From Up Throw:


1. You can uthrow a Fox or Falco at very low perctntages and if they don't DI, they usually don't bother teching because they're expecting you to grab them again or usmash. Once they land and don't tech, IF they don't, jab their body, forcing them to get up in place. (There are ways out of the forceful jab mentioned earlier in the post). NOw that he's on the ground, I'm sure you know what to do. You can do a falling uair and go from there. OR, you can usmash them as they get up and go from there too. OR...you could wait for them to satnd, then grab before they can move or react. There are other things you can do, these are just some of the more useful ones.
2. You can also start a combo like this from uthrow n fox or falco if you uthrow them, and they don't DI, then you shine them as they near the ground, and continue from there how the regualar structure was stated (jab etc.). Don't forget that after that jab you can follow it up differently so you trick them into DIing the wrong way every once in a while, assuming they DI normally otherwise.
Note-when performing the second uthrow "Thunders' combo", it's easier for them to tech the shine compared to teching it while being shined on the ground.
I wouldn't reccomend try number 2, because It's completel unnesseccary, but do what you want, I'm just trying to help.
The jab into etc. can be done whenever they hit the ground and don't tech, but at higher percents, it's a lot easier to get out of it. Be creative while trying new ways of doing this. As fro trying to get them on the ground with a throw, uthrow's your best bet, or tech chasing another throwinto shine, jab, etc.


After the up aerial and/or the jab:


There are many other things you can do after the jab and mainly after the uair. After the jab, you can also get away with hitting them with a free down aerial, but I would NOT reccomend this to anyone, just because it give out less damage that the uair, and comboing from it is just a tech chase.
As for after the uair, in place of the usmash of course or even after the usmash, you have different options depending on the percentages. In place of usmash, you can utilt, leaving you with less lag so you can reach them faster and continue your combo in a different perhaps better way. If you've started this combo from 0% starting with a drill, a utilt in place of a usmash probably isn't the way to go though.
As I stated earlier, you can chain throw after the usmash, or at higher percentages, after the uair.
More things you can do after the uair:
-You can do another uair and continue to chain them or do whatever else has to be done.
-You can combo it into a nuetral aerial or several of them depending on DI and percent. Also, the nair can be followed up in many ways of it's own, giving you more options to change it up and leave your opponents guessing which direction to DI in.
-You can drill and if they don't DI out of your grasp, you can grab them/shine etc. I'm sure you all know what to do after a drill, that's not up for me to decide or explain.

Doing it into a shinespike:

This is one of the most effective variations of the combo. Basically what you do is if you end up comboing them near the edge and they fall off from the jab, you have a good chance of jumping out for the shine, and knowing how bad Fox and Falco's recoveries are down there, it puts you in a great position.

Ways of Escaping the Initial Combo:

-You can smash DI the jab upwards after them reaching a certain percentage, but this still gives you an oppurtunity to do another attack, but It may not be ensured. -Credit to Doraki
-They can DI the uair far backwards from you so you cannot reach them with the usmash, at any percent too. With that being said, I'm sure they can get even further out of your grasp by smash DIing it backwards from the uair, or with smash DI, possibly even forwards. Keep in mind that this may still give the oppurtunity to do something else, whatever works at that time.
-They can crouch cancel your aerial and shine you before you can shine them at certain percentages. If they just DI the dair though, you can follow their DI and go from their though.
-They can tech the shine, but this still gives you tech chasing oppurtunities. They might be able to smash DI the shine so your Perfect WD cannot reach them, even if you WD out of shine extremely fast, but I'm not positive on that one.
-I believe they can smash DI the shine upwards and maybe towards them along with upwards as well, so the jab won't be forceful, it will just have the effect it does when trying this on mewtwo at any percent, he will stand and just be stunned. (effect of a regualr jab on them while standing)
-They can DI/smash DI the uair downwards at certain percentages (smash DI at %s) and tech the uair, still giving you oppurtunity though.
I'm sure there are more ways of escaping it, if you know of any that are useful, feel free to post them like Doraki did, I will say next to it that it was you that said it.


What to do if They CC the Shine:

If they decide to CC the shine, whnat I do is usually jab normally, then that just stuns them, then I repeat the waveshin jab motion, if they CC the shine again I repeat, until they eventually fall from it then I combo. They can get out of this, but they usually don't choose to CC the shine, and it's hard to realize what to do if you're in their position because they usually don't mean to crouch cancel it. This is good to keep it going when they do that. There are other things you can do like grab, usmash, etc. but I don't like to wait and see if they CC it so I just stick with this method.

That's BASICALLY all you need to know or have to know to get the idea, figure out more things about it if you want, if you feel they are useful, feel free to post them i guess, just for the sake of further understanding.

There might be additional information spread throughout this thread, but If so, it's probably nothing very important or essential to the combo, so far at least, let's fix that!
Once again, don't give anyone in general credit for this, it's very well known, just enjoy the combo. I hope this thread gave you an idea of it, and helped.
You can however give me credit for this post. Also, If any term here isn't understood by someone, feel free to look at the stickies in Melle Discussion for the thread on the main terms of SSBM
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#3
Thanks, and nice sig. Once you get the hang of it, it's quite easy actually. But if you do it too often, people catch on and find more ways of escaping.
 

Ryan-K

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Messages
3,108
Location
Staten Island, NY
#5
well the thing is if they hold a direction, or press A as you jab them they will not simply stand up they will either roll or attack so dont be too predictable with it.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#7
It's impossible to do a get-up attack from the jab I believe, also, what VarietyBarrage does is dash away after the jab and dash back and JC grab. If you fall on them with the uair, you'll get them if they try to roll, attack or stand. it's TOO good. they cant roll away if you do it right. ^^
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#9
well the thing is if they hold a direction, or press A as you jab them they will not simply stand up they will either roll or attack so dont be too predictable with it.
Excuse he double post for I cannot edit right now, lol. If you tap A or B after the jab you wont attack cause you're already trying to stand. And i dont think holding a or b will result in an attack.
 

pkmvodka

Smash Lord
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
1,036
Location
Montréal
#12
Only way to prevent this is to tech the shine. If you don't and the fox doesn't mess up, you'll eat an up air after the jab.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#13
I thought I did cause you posted right before me.
superryan said:
NO i mean you press it and if you do that instead of holding a direction iirc you will do the getting up attack.
I know what you meant, you can't do a get-up attack after the jab though. And even if it was possible, there are many ways around it and punishing them for it. Nice match you posted but just cause he did it first, doesnt mean he made it up. VarietyBarrage calls it that and he prolly heard that name for it from Takagi, cause he lives in jpn and would know.
 

Hylian

Oops
Administrator
Premium
GRimer
Rankings Team
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
23,189
Location
Missouri
Switch FC
2687-7494-5103
#14
I must try this considering I absolutly HATE playing falco's.
 

Omni

You can't break those cuffs.
GRimer
Joined
Jul 10, 2004
Messages
11,684
Location
Maryland
#15
THAT COMBO WAS TIIIIGHT.

I usually go for the waveland --> shine --> upsmash combo. The momentum of the waveland pushes you out of your shine and you move forward enough to upsmash Falco after the shine. This combo looks a lot more sexier. Definitely something I want to make a part of my style.
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Messages
667
Location
Southern California
#19
before reading this i thought wavedashing after a shine against a falling character was pointless. The jab opens up to a lot more things than just u-airing doesn't it? what about shffl dair (which you suggested before the shine), waveshine, jab, u-smash, u-air? Or even a jab to grab?

This topic gives all the more reason not to believe falco > fox. =D

ty Wolf
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#20
Stop spreading pro-Japanese propaganda. This combo was invented by Master of Flames, not Thunders.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#23
I posted that in a previous post in this thread. varietybarrage calls it that. i think he heard it from takagi who knows thunders. answer my question.
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#26
Weakest Edit Ever, Bladewise. What, you think just because Silent Wolf says "i think he heard it from" it must be true?
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#27
you still didnt answer my question. and thats not what i said. i KNOW i heard it from varietybarrage, who im pretty sure got it from kei who knows thunders and WOULD know.
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#30
you still didnt answer my question. and thats not what i said. i KNOW i heard it from varietybarrage, who im pretty sure got it from kei who knows thunders and WOULD know.
I gave you a reason for not answering my question. If you want to spend 5 hours saying answer my question plz answer my question plz answer my question plz... be my guest.
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#32
See? You seem to like to ask the same question over and over again. Like I said, be my guest. Master of Flames = MoF, the most technical Fox on the planet.
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#33
.......................................................................................................I HIGHLY doubt that. I'm sure either Isai or thunders are the most technical foxes on the planet, and im sure hes just some random. i bet he cant retreat shine shdl consistently. or do anything from perfect control perfectly. he sounds pretty random to me. btw, tech skill<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<mindgames.
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#35
Master of Flames can drillshine infinite Marth on FD and double shine infinite Luigi, he can also shinejab combo any other character lighter than Marth. "some random" learn to label people as people, not inanimate objects, the word is "someone", n00b.

To Star_Fox: So? You made a post that didn't contribute anything to the topic. How are you better than me?
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#36
He never said he was better, you assumed that's what he implied when he clearly didn't, lol. also, how are any of the things you listed above technically impressive in any way? If you think those are impressive, he must not be as great as you think. He's a random player who means nothing to anyone in the entire smash community as far as I know. I searched for him on the members list, does he even exist?
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#37
He's one of the first players that PC chris ever played with. Search "MoFo" on youtube or DC++ smash hub and you should get some results. PC would've never become anything without MoFo. Also, can Isai and Thunders do those things? If so, how come I've never seen them?
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#38
You said Mof, not mofo, I know who mofo is...hes definately not the most technically skiled fox though, not by a longshot, lol. hes not random, i just didnt know who you were talking about cause you said mof, lol. isai and thunders dont do those things cause its not really worth it, lol.
 

Lord SHL

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Messages
116
#39
Why do you think MoFo has M and F indented? Because M is Master o is of, and F is Flames. o was added at the end to make it into a word. If you honestly don't believe me, ask people for his aim address. That's what it is. Not really worth it or because they can't do them? I'm thinking the latter. About the most "technical" thing isai can do is perfect SHFFLs, and thunders is good at SHDL, but then again, who isn't?
 
Joined
Jun 27, 2005
Messages
10,463
Location
the west
#40
thats not what theyre best at, you've obviously only seen a few videos, or just bad ones. Maybe you should go see Isai play in real lfe and not just vids. i wouldnt doubt isai could do the things you listed. why do you think mofo is so great? hes really not that great, lol.
 
Top