Thunder?

[smashbropika]

Why don't good Pikachu's use thunder more often? I know it takes valuable time if it hits Pika and even when it doesn't, but if it's timed right I've found (at least with the people I play with every week) that it can really dominate in certain situations.

Some ways it works are when:

Pika knocks the enemy off the ledge and the opposing player attempts to get back on the stage without grabbing the ledge first. Thunder can be used there for either a direct hit, which is basically a kill if the player is light and/or at a high % health, or at least a perfect edgeguard opportunity. Even a hit from the lightning part stuns them for a second so Pika can combo them off the side more. This works especially well on the Foxes, Falcos, and Sheiks I play.

Another way it works is well-known, but I don't see it used as often as it could be; this is when the player is above Pika after a usmash or uthrow-->uair. It seems like a lot of times players opt to use uair repetitively as opposed to a moving thunder. This can even be comboed until the other player gets KO'd and even if the player dodges with neutral L or R or some other way, they are vulnerable to other combos.

There are other times when I even use it as players are rushing towards me. I run in a certain direction, they follow, I jump and thunder and it works almost like a shield; I'm safe on one side of it while they get hit by it or have to wait for it to go away. It's worth the gamble (and it really isn't a gamble).

The situations are kind of hard to explain without a visual but I think those explanations will give you an idea of what I'm try to say lol.

Is it really that bad a move?

Also, thunder kills = muchos cool points

 

[Scissors Sir]

Everything is situational. Also everything you see in videos (especially those that are years old) isn't all the players know/do/practice. Sometimes too much emphasis is placed on what isn't done in a video. And safe is usually the way to go unless you really know you can catch your opponent with stuff like that.

And if others aren't "doing it", that just makes your playing style that much easier to spot. If you notice, even though most known pika mains use the same moves, we don't play the same way. Some use certain attacks more than others.

If you choose to use thunder in that way that's fine if it works for you. But it's not like it isn't known...

Timing goes into a risk vs reward issue...

 

[smashbropika]

Ah, I see what you mean. I'm generally a risk-taker if I figure there's an acceptable % that it will be successful (probably 50% or higher). That's why I like to watch Anther's videos a little more than most others; I think he's a bit of a risk-taker too =).
Thanks scissors... btw, aren't you Philly?

 

[N64]

Thunder is way too laggy and timing-dependant to be a common move. There are times when it is useful, but almost always there's a better way to accomplish what you want to do. Thunder ends combos, it very rarely starts them, so you usually want to use it with an intent to kill or if nothing else will reach. I pretty much only use it after usmashes where nothing else will reach, or if a peach is being dumb and trying to float back super high over me. Occasionally I'll use it to assist in edgeguarding, but pika has so much else that it useful and more reliable than thunder for that purpose. Pretty much everyone will try to sweetspot against you, so thunder won't hit them, unless you jump out and back, so that the thunder comes down in front of the edge. I've not often seen the benefit to this, though, because its knockback trajectory rarely makes it more difficult for them to recover (often makes it easier), and while it does a little damage you don't have enough time to do it again before they can recover (or will no longer be in a position where it will still prevent them from recovering). Pika has many more options for edgeguarding: fsmash, ftilt, ledgehogging, chasing out with aerials. Hell, quick attack is probably a more reliable edgeguard than thunder.

As far as finishing combos with thunder that can be finished with other moves goes, that's situational. I used to do rising uair->uair->thunder on floaties a lot, but then the people I played started DIing the second uair so that my thunder wouldn't hit, and a lot of times it's difficult to react in time to tell "oh, he DI'd so that thunder can hit now." If you miss in this situation, a lot of characters can punish you for it.

For using thunder as a wall, it can catch people on occasion but is usually pretty noticable and avoidable. It can be useful I guess if you want to try to create some space between you and someone, dash away jump thunder, but I'd just dash jump jolt behind me instead. Less lag, still gives them something to worry about, and can lead into a techchase perhaps. Pika usually wants to play at a midrange anyhow, with mobility to dash in and out. Thunderwalls create a lot of space, and allow for the other character to set up other stuff a lot of the time. Fox and Falco can sit back and laser you through it, peach can pull turnips, the links can pull bombs, samus and dk charge their big hitters, luigi can load his tornado, etc. Not many characters really dislike being far from pikachu, jolt isn't a super good camping projectile, and pika's defensive game isn't all that great. So I just don't see it setting up for much. May catch people a couple times, but I doubt you'll be able to combo from it, and there's too much risk against a lot of characters.

Thunder has its place though.

 

[Vaseline]

N64 couldn't have said it any better. I barely use Thunder as well because of how long it takes and how Pikachu is vulnerable to attacks when he misses the Thunder. The only time I find myself using it is against when I do uair juggles against new people because they aren't expecting it mad when the person is magnified in the air where no other attack can reach. If familiar to where the thunder will hit, then you can kill the person before he has a chance to come down. When I connect an upsmash against my brothers, they start freaking out and trying to DI away because they know whats coming =].

 

[Zig-Zag!]

The trick with using thunder properly is that you never miss. So andy, if you worry about being punished for it, don't miss

Actually, I use thunder as a mindgame a lot as far as edgeguarding goes. I've killed several falcons, space animals, and ganons who have gone straight for the ledge as opposed to over me by thundering on the ledge at the perfect time, sending them flying. I like to do traveling thunders back onto the stage a lot to limit a players options as far as where they can move. I definiately do not recall starting many combos with a thunder, but I do use thunder quite a bit more than just sparringly, I find.

 

[smashbropika]

I guess you can't really start a combo with thunder... I tried it again and they get to recover a long time before Pikachu's done with it. I guess most of my friends kinda suck then because a lot of them fall for thunder tricks all the time. I found that the thunder wall thing works a lot better if the other player is close to me because they either have to make some kind of dodge maneuver or get hit by it; but you're right N64, it's more penalizing against players that can charge something up on you.
Otherwise, I'm with Zig-zag on this one. What he said about the ganons, falcons, and space animals is what I was talking about. I haven't checked but I'm pretty sure if its timed perfectly even a sweetspotted recovery can be interrupted before it happens if they come in at the right angle.
Thanks for the help everybody.

 

[worldjem7]

I wouldn't say I use Thunder scarcely but, I do use it often enough. The wall that Thunder puts between you and your opponent is worth it because they HAVE to wait for it to go away or else they get hit and by that time you've recovered from the lag. By the time the Thunder is finished your lag will be done so you'll have enough time to counter anything your opponent would try to throw at you; it's a perfect trade-off. I always use this tactic when the opponent is trying to recover onto the stage or to just put space between me and them. Most of the time my Thunder will be VERY close to them (or hit them), I won't just randomly use thunder while I'm far away from them so they get scared enough to not use their fully charged w/e (Samus, DK, etc.) and end up waiting anyway. Personally I'm very comfortable with the lag time when you're moving and the Thunder happens a few meters away from you to make that wall so I can land it pretty close to my opponent if I haven't already hit them.

I'm a bit surprised that more people don't use Thunder more actually lol.