Through the fire and flames he carries on! Charizard in Smash Switch

[Deleted member]

Fortunately I've already got Charizard down (rip Rock Smash), and I'm gonna focus on maining Ivysaur next. I have a hunch it'll be least popular of the three and besides being sometimes attracted to less popular characters, I've always been a fan of the Bulbasaur line (up until they get ugly as Venasaur).

 

[Fire Tactician]

I'm so ready for Pokémon Trainer... Squirtle was easily the best in Brawl back when I mained PT... Ivysaur was my Project M main... Charizard was one of my most reliable pocket secondaries in Smash 4... I think I'm primed to jump right into Pokémon Trainer quickly!

 

[Blackwolf666]

A long time ago, way back in super smash bros for N64 my friend said to me they should make Charizard playable. I told him that was stupid he's already in a pokeball... Today Charizard is one of my favorite smash bros characters...

 

[arbustopachon]

So Charizard gained quite a bit of mobility in ultimate.
His run speed is now 2.2, his top airspeed is now 1.103 (19% increase) and he really likes the standarized jumpsquat.

Info from Kurogane Hammer.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

So, I was going to make a new thread for this, but realized how co conceited that would be, so I'll ask here. What can I do to improve my Charizard game when I don't have friends to play with right now? I'm all gucci with Squirtle and Ivysaur, and used to be good with Charizard in Smash 4 (and Project M but that really doesn't apply here), but the CPUs tear me apart, and I refuse to take online seriously until they fix the lag. I know I can practice combos and offensive stuff in training mode, but in actual matches where neutral counts, it literally always feels safer to switch to someone else and just fish for back throws if I'm "struggling" to kill with their other moves. Zard just feels a lot less safe in this game and I can't figure out why.

 

[Kith]

So, I was going to make a new thread for this, but realized how co conceited that would be, so I'll ask here. What can I do to improve my Charizard game when I don't have friends to play with right now? I'm all gucci with Squirtle and Ivysaur, and used to be good with Charizard in Smash 4 (and Project M but that really doesn't apply here), but the CPUs tear me apart, and I refuse to take online seriously until they fix the lag. I know I can practice combos and offensive stuff in training mode, but in actual matches where neutral counts, it literally always feels safer to switch to someone else and just fish for back throws if I'm "struggling" to kill with their other moves. Zard just feels a lot less safe in this game and I can't figure out why.

I'm having some trouble with the new Charizard too, actually. But that's probably because the last time I played him was in Brawl, and so a lot has changed with his b-air and removal of Rock Smash. I don't have answers, just letting ya know I feel your pain lol.

 

[Deleted member]

I refuse to take online seriously until they fix the lag.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but that's kinda the wrong perspective to have. A lot of other online games "cheat" a little by not requiring every character to updated for everyone else at precisely the same time. Smash relies on frame data and so it can't fudge this. Every player needs to be on the same page.
Because of this, even if Nintendo used dedicated servers, anyone with a sub-par internet connection will bring the game down for everyone. It's like four people reading a book together but they can't turn the page until that slowest reader catches up. So if you're consistently experiencing lag, like all the time, it's probably you.

Or, another theory is that with all the influx of Smash players who don't watch Nintendo Directs or listen to Sakurai, they probably didn't get ethernet adapters or think about their internet connection and just assumed their Wi-fi is good enough, so that's why we're seeing so many more laggy battles online.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I know this doesn't answer your question, but that's kinda the wrong perspective to have. A lot of other online games "cheat" a little by not requiring every character to updated for everyone else at precisely the same time. Smash relies on frame data and so it can't fudge this. Every player needs to be on the same page.
Because of this, even if Nintendo used dedicated servers, anyone with a sub-par internet connection will bring the game down for everyone. It's like four people reading a book together but they can't turn the page until that slowest reader catches up. So if you're consistently experiencing lag, like all the time, it's probably you.

Or, another theory is that with all the influx of Smash players who don't watch Nintendo Directs or listen to Sakurai, they probably didn't get ethernet adapters or think about their internet connection and just assumed their Wi-fi is good enough, so that's why we're seeing so many more laggy battles online.

Not all the time, but enough that it's bad for real practice. And even when it's running "perfectly" there is obviously more lag than locals, and therefore still changes my overall game-plan and ability to react to things. Things that work and are safe online often do neither of those in local multiplayer in Smash.

EDIT: Also want to clarify that I play Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Skullgirls, and sometimes King Of Fighters online and have nearly zero problems with connection or lag. Those are all peer to peer, and therefore also mostly dependent on player connection speed. This is definitely on Nintendo, no doubt in my mind.
EDIT 2: Also Splatoon 2, basically no problems.

 

[Luigifan18]

I know this doesn't answer your question, but that's kinda the wrong perspective to have. A lot of other online games "cheat" a little by not requiring every character to updated for everyone else at precisely the same time. Smash relies on frame data and so it can't fudge this. Every player needs to be on the same page.
Because of this, even if Nintendo used dedicated servers, anyone with a sub-par internet connection will bring the game down for everyone. It's like four people reading a book together but they can't turn the page until that slowest reader catches up. So if you're consistently experiencing lag, like all the time, it's probably you.

Or, another theory is that with all the influx of Smash players who don't watch Nintendo Directs or listen to Sakurai, they probably didn't get ethernet adapters or think about their internet connection and just assumed their Wi-fi is good enough, so that's why we're seeing so many more laggy battles online.

Or, y'know, they don't know what an Ethernet adapter is, how it even works, or how to convince their parents that buying one is a good idea.

 

[Kith]

Or, y'know, they don't know what an Ethernet adapter is, how it even works, or how to convince their parents that buying one is a good idea.

Mewtwo is technically right though. Other genres of games (shooters, specifically) use techniques like client-side prediction to make guesses about what your enemy is doing before it hears the "truth" from the server. That's why you get people running into walls when there's lag. Fighters need to be very precise about what your enemy is doing so they can't use those kinds of techniques. Every input has to be agreed on by all consoles before its registered and displayed to all consoles. There has to be a lag associated with that (because physics). Maybe they can make it better, but it'd never be like a local match

 

[Deleted member]

Not all the time, but enough that it's bad for real practice. And even when it's running "perfectly" there is obviously more lag than locals, and therefore still changes my overall game-plan and ability to react to things. Things that work and are safe online often do neither of those in local multiplayer in Smash.

EDIT: Also want to clarify that I play Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Skullgirls, and sometimes King Of Fighters online and have nearly zero problems with connection or lag. Those are all peer to peer, and therefore also mostly dependent on player connection speed. This is definitely on Nintendo, no doubt in my mind.
EDIT 2: Also Splatoon 2, basically no problems.

It is true that even in the best of conditions, online will still have some amount of lag compared to local matches. Simply no way to avoid that. After playing so much online and then playing offline matches, it kinda felt like jumping from 30 fps to 60 fps in other games.

I don't know much about the first games you listed, but I definitely know Splatoon 2 is not really comparable to Smash, as it does fudge things. In matches with a bad connection, I've been hit by ink from seemingly no where, or I open fire on a seemingly invincible inkling (probably because I'm actually missing) while they splat me in one shot.

EDIT: To go back to Charizard though, I didn't know how to play him until Smash 4 (I also didn't play much of Brawl, but I did play a bit of Project M, and that was usually Ivysaur). Usually in matches I try to stick with the character and rarely switch out. So I'll start as Ivysaur (I don't know Squirtle very well), and once my stock is taken and it forces me to switch to Charizard, I'll stick with him. I've found that in general, a lot of people don't expect Charizard to be good at EVERYTHING; they assume people only bring him out to finish the job with a Flare Blitz or something. But Charizard can be deceptively quick with certain moves, and I usually have better results the more aggressive I'm being. That forward aerial slash is so good.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Personally I feel like Chaizard is the pokemon I'm most competent with so here's some tips on how to play him.

For neutral, Jab and Nair are some of your most dependable moves. Nair has a large, lingering hitbox and very little landing lag and can even combo into Jab. Jab is very fast and is probably my most used tool as a Charizard main in both Smash 4 and Ultimate. Bair is safe when spaced well but can be played around by good players when you're too predictable with it. Fair is also solid but be wary that it doesn't autocancel from a shorthop anymore. Shielding can be effective for Charizard because Up Smash comes out on frame 6 and gives him a very fast out-of-shield punish. Flamethrower has a slow start up but can be a safe option against a foe who's defensive and difficult to approach. Remember to always mind your spacing and your opponent's shield, Charizard can punished hard if he's not careful.

When your opponent is in disadvantage stage take full advantage of your ground movement to keep them from landing safely. This is your goal as a Charizard player, to hold the advantageous state as long as you possibly can so you can make full use of Charizard's amazing ground speed and large, powerful attacks. Dash attack, up tilt, up smash, and short hop nair are all very effective juggling tools. A lot of them are effective at frametrapping air dodges because of large range and/or little end lag. Since Up Smash is so fast out of shield it can be effective to block and attack from a landing foe and then punish with it. Try to get a feel for when your opponent gets intimidated and starts shielding a lot. Charizard has a potent enough grab game. Even if they're out of d-throw combo percentage you can still use his powerful f-throw and b-throw to get them off stage, setting them up for an edgeguard or free damage from Flamethrower.

Landing can be a little difficult with Charizard so it's important to get good at it. Mix it up with his triple jump, Nair, and neutral and directional air dodges. Be very careful as you land and mind your opponent's favorite pressure tools.

And most importantly, Don't. Flare Blitz. Recklessly. Use it for hard reads and occasionally mixing up your recovery. You might catch some opponents off guard with it when used unpredictably but good players will shield it and punish you for it hard. The other day I shielded one in a Charizard ditto and got a free F-smash of all things off it. It's not a move you should be dependent on for getting kills. Zard has a lot of much safer kill moves aside from it. Like, half the moves in his arsenal kill, so chill out with those side specials already.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Ignore this plz

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Man the learning curve to using all 3 for Pokemon trainer will be huge .it's almost like playing marvel vs capcom 3. Should of just made them separate

I can see both perspectives to be honest.

You can make all three together work but you need to design them to play off each other, which currently they are bit the balance is tilted towards one character a bit much.

Using Zard can be tricky with the other two and frankly issues with his transition but he has a usage for the team, just needs lil bit of help.

 

[arbustopachon]

Jab now works

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Guys I kinda miss solo Charizard. I know we've all moved on and agreed Charizard is more viable with Trainer, but it's not the same. I've just been thinking how much fun I had with Zard, and I don't have the same amount of fun with Squirtle and Ivysaur. Here's hoping we'll get an Echo fighter for solo Zard. (Dragonite? Sceptile?)

 

[ZephyrZ]

Guys I kinda miss solo Charizard. I know we've all moved on and agreed Charizard is more viable with Trainer, but it's not the same. I've just been thinking how much fun I had with Zard, and I don't have the same amount of fun with Squirtle and Ivysaur. Here's hoping we'll get an Echo fighter for solo Zard. (Dragonite? Sceptile?)

I don't think either if those would really work as echoes. Dragonite's wings are too small and Sceptile doesn't have wings at all. Maybe they could change Dragonite's Up Smash and Up Tilt but that may be a stretch.

I've heard Mega Charizard X proposed as an echo and I think if Zard where to have one, that'd make the most sense. I'm not betting on it ever happening though.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I don't think either if those would really work as echoes. Dragonite's wings are too small and Sceptile doesn't have wings at all. Maybe they could change Dragonite's Up Smash and Up Tilt but that may be a stretch.

I've heard Mega Charizard X proposed as an echo and I think if Zard where to have one, that'd make the most sense. I'm not betting on it ever happening though.

I'm not either and it honestly makes me sad. I get it, our boy has moved onto bigger and better things, but it's just not as fun IMO. RIP my scaley boy.

 

[PF9]

If we have another Smash game that brings everyone back, I have suggested that Charizard be made separate while keeping Ivysaur and Squritle under Pokemon Trainer (but now giving both their own Final Smash).

 

[ZephyrZ]

If we have another Smash game that brings everyone back, I have suggested that Charizard be made separate while keeping Ivysaur and Squritle under Pokemon Trainer (but now giving both their own Final Smash).

But then there's people like me who still want Charizard to be a part of the team.

That's why a Mega Charizard X echo would be a good compromise, then everyone would be happy.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Guys we got a buff! They're not the best buffs, but I truly think they're a strong step in the right direction. Charizard actually has options now.

-Nair is more consistent, and using it as a landing option is a little more safe
-F throw now kills at a very reasonable % (haven't tested exact numbers yet)
-F smash is stronger, which honestly feels better. Feels like it's more worthwhile to use.
-F tilt's sweet spot launches further, giving a really solid kill option
-And I guess Flare Blitz snaps to ledge easier? Idk, but I'll take it!

 

[arbustopachon]

The nair changes are great you can now just fastfall a sh nair and spotdodge and evade all shieldgrabs, and it combos into a bunch of new stuff too.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

The nair changes are great you can now just fastfall a sh nair and spotdodge and evade all shieldgrabs, and it combos into a bunch of new stuff too.

Really good to know! I'm not home now so I can't lab. Have any examples of what it could lead into?

 

[arbustopachon]

Jab, dtilt, usmash, f tilt, dash attack and grab at mid percents.

At 70 ish it can combo into bair and fair if they don't di away.

 

[roymustang1990-]

Congrats to tweak for giving us the best Pokemon trainer plays ever on mkleo!

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I know it's been almost a year since the release, but I just want to say... I'm still a little salty over no Solo 'Zard, or even a Solo 'Zard replacement. I know now PT is high, if not top tier, but that doesn't change the fact that I want to play my Lizard Boy without the other two tagging along.

inb4 "Just don't use Ivy or Squirtle". It's not the same, and I don't think Zard is solo viable in this iteration (but could be with a few tweaks).

 

[PF9]

Perhaps solo Charizard will be DLC. It could be purchased as part of a package with a G8 Pokemon.

And perhaps in a future Smash game he will be separated from Trainer who would still have Squirtle and Ivysaur.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

solo Charizard will be DLC.

*High doubt, especially when Pokemon Trainer is in the game*

But props to you for being a believer!

 

[Call_Me_Red]

*High doubt, especially when Pokemon Trainer is in the game*

But props to you for being a believer!

My hope is that they'll change PT's lineup to different gens, but they all play the same, e.g. Piplup, Maganium, Blaziken (or something, it doesn't matter). And then they could give us the 3 Kanto starters as individual fighters. Not a perfect solution, but a solution none the less.

 

[UtopianPoyzin]

My hope is that they'll change PT's lineup to different gens, but they all play the same, e.g. Piplup, Maganium, Blaziken (or something, it doesn't matter). And then they could give us the 3 Kanto starters as individual fighters. Not a perfect solution, but a solution none the less.

This'll be cool to see in a Smash 6, but I don't know... I'm not sure why Nintendo would completely redesign a character like PT this far after the game has been released