Thoughts on: Should Hatsune Miku be an assist trophy (thus eliminating her from being playable) instead of a playable character?

[Oddball]

The problem I have with characters being "significant" to video game history is that determining whether or not a character is "significant" enough to be in the game is completely subjective. There is no official guideline or status quo to decide if a fourth part character meets the level of "significance" that needs to be set if they're going to be in the game at all. Whereas it's a hundred times simpler to simple follow by the rules already set: If they're from a video game/related media (mii channel/gyromite seem to be the exceptions), they count. If they're not (Manga, TV show, literally someone's OC, etc.), they have no chance.

It's like the saying "I don't know much about art but I know what I like."

There's no way to make a rule for that. It varies on a case by case basis, and yes, while they're some subjectiveness to it, there's some for any character you'd want to see in Smash. Just go to any topic and you'll see people argue about whether Waluigi, Geno, Toad, or Bayou Billy is an important enough character to get in... and if they are important, are they important enough to Nintendo... and does being important to Nintendo even matter.

With that said, it's still a lot easier to make the arguement for some characters over others.
James Bond? The guy MADE the 64 and put out one of Nintendo best selling games.
Popeye? The very inspiration for Mario.
Sailor Moon? ...ummm...

Any rules we make as to who is allowed Nintendo is just going to break whenever they feel like anyway.
Characters have to be on Nintendo... until Solid Snake.
Okay, let's change that. Characters have to be important to Nintendo... until Cloud Strife.
Okay, but you can only have one third party character per company... then comes Ryu.

 

[Xelrog]

James Bond? The guy MADE the 64 and put out one of Nintendo best selling games.
Popeye? The very inspiration for Mario.
Sailor Moon? ...ummm...

Not a video game character.
Not a video game character.
Not a video game character.

This isn't rocket science.

 

[Arthur97]

Pretty sure Mario 64 and OoT made the 64.

Still, there needs to be some guidance to fighter selection as opposed to this madness Sakurai has turned it into. Opening the floodgates to outside of video games just adds chaos as that's what happens when you don't have rules. That may very well be what it finally becomes, but I sincerely hope not. Hopefully Sakurai isn't an anime fan so he doesn't add them just cause he wants to.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

James Bond? The guy MADE the 64 and put out one of Nintendo best selling games.
Popeye? The very inspiration for Mario.
Sailor Moon? ...ummm...

Doesn't matter. None of them are video game characters.

Pretty sure James Bond didn't "Make" the N64. 99% sure other Nintendo games held equal part. And many video games have taken inspiration from fiction or mythology. Should we add the actual Greek gods because of Kid Icarus, or an actual knight because of Zelda?

 

[Oddball]

Yes. I acknowledge they are not videogame characters. I never denied that.

I just said that there are some characters who, even if they aren't videogame characters, can be argued to have been very vital to Nintendo history and theoretically one could make the arguement in their favor. Saying that they are not videogame characters does not address the point I was making.

 

[GeflGabe]

I can't see this likely happening, mostly due to the grey area of her origin, other than that, the only way she would fit in imo, is if she had her Project Mirai Nendroid appearance.

If where talking rhythm game representation, then many previous posters have suggested good ones, that would arguably get first dibs. (EBA, RH) And on top of that, if they were going for some left field picks, I would see Don and Katsu from Taiko having a much larger shot.

At the end of the day, I would leave it to the modding community, for this character if nothing else, as they've done reskins for her, back in ssb4 already. And who knows? We might get custom movesets pretty soon, considering people have been modding this game even before day 1.

Just a few cents from a weeb who considers Miku, waifu.

 

[Captain Shades]

With that said, it's still a lot easier to make the arguement for some characters over others.
James Bond? The guy MADE the 64 and put out one of Nintendo best selling games.
Popeye? The very inspiration for Mario.
Sailor Moon? ...ummm...

No Mickey Mouse? That would be a given as Nintendo struck it big when they got a licensing deal with Disney back when they were still making toys and playing cards. Or what about LEGO City, which was a huge hit on Wii U and a surprise exclusive. Also Nintendo did publish quite a few Domo titles for DS. I guess there’s also the big man himself, Mike Tyson, who most certainly is the reason Punch-Out!! took off.


As for my stance on the 4th party issue, I believe that Smash should be allowed to use 4th parties as long as it was conceived or licensed out by either Nintendo or the respective 3rd parties of Smash. Obviously, I believe content from the Pokemon anime should be fully allowed to use, along with other shows like Kirby Right Back At Ya, Sonic X, Sonic Boom, F-Zero (anime), Castlevania (Netflix), Detective Pikachu (movie), Captain N, Ultra Hand, Mega Man: Fully Charged, Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Rabbids Invasion, etc.. A lot of Nintendo’s history was made prior to video games, so it’d be nice to see their toys represented outside of R.O.B., plus things like the Pokémon anime are really big pieces in Nintendo history or soon to be, so limiting these gaming franchises to only their game content feels limiting, especially when some characters like Sonic thrives on outside marketing.

 

[BZL8]

And so Alpharad begins the revolution...

officially starting my campaign of Hatsune Miku for Smash Bros

— jacob alpharad 🌙✨ (@Alpharad) April 11, 2019

Though I am not the biggest Miku fan, the reactions to her being in the game would be very, very popcorn-worthy. Opossum already fully covered what I am about to say. The fact that a non-videogame fourth party character got in some shape or form (less you count a voice synthesizing software as a videogame) would create wide-spread implications for general representation (and I am not just talking about playable characters).

As I put it, any appearance of a non-videogame character in Smash, whether that character is playable or not, is essentially a step towards Goku.

 

[TheDuke54]

Isn't R.ob. a hook-up/expansion for the NES? Not trying to back up what the OP is saying, but I did see some posts saying that Smash has strictly been game characters. I read an old thread here wanting to bring some obscure toy from Nintendo's hayday. Think it was a mother Kangaroo. I think that'd be a much more cool and better inclusion to a fighter that isn't strictly a video-game character.

 

[Arthur97]

Isn't R.ob. a hook-up/expansion for the NES? Not trying to back up what the OP is saying, but I did see some posts saying that Smash has strictly been game characters. I read an old thread here wanting to bring some obscure toy from Nintendo's hayday. Think it was a mother Kangaroo. I think that'd be a much more cool and better inclusion to a fighter that isn't strictly a video-game character.

He's gaming hardware. So, yeah, we can have a playable NES (which I'd be down for) but it's still gaming, just the part most people don't think of when they think of fighters. For context, we're probably not getting a Walkman.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

As for my stance on the 4th party issue, I believe that Smash should be allowed to use 4th parties as long as it was conceived or licensed out by either Nintendo or the respective 3rd parties of Smash. Obviously, I believe content from the Pokemon anime should be fully allowed to use, along with other shows like Kirby Right Back At Ya, Sonic X, Sonic Boom, F-Zero (anime), Castlevania (Netflix), Detective Pikachu (movie), Captain N, Ultra Hand, Mega Man: Fully Charged, Pac-Man and the Ghostly Adventures, Rabbids Invasion, etc.. A lot of Nintendo’s history was made prior to video games, so it’d be nice to see their toys represented outside of R.O.B., plus things like the Pokémon anime are really big pieces in Nintendo history or soon to be, so limiting these gaming franchises to only their game content feels limiting, especially when some characters like Sonic thrives on outside marketing.

I agree. That's a great idea, but as i've aforementioned before, 4th parties liscened by Nintendo or other 3rd parties should be only spirits or assist trophies, nothing else.

I don't think the idea is crazy. There are some 4th party character that I feel are significant to Nintendo's history, this just isn't one of them.

I can't see this likely happening, mostly due to the grey area of her origin, other than that, the only way she would fit in imo, is if she had her Project Mirai Nendroid appearance.

Though I am not the biggest Miku fan, the reactions to her being in the game would be very, very popcorn-worthy. Opossum already fully covered what I am about to say. The fact that a non-videogame fourth party character got in some shape or form (less you count a voice synthesizing software as a videogame) would create wide-spread implications for general representation (and I am not just talking about playable characters).

As I put it, any appearance of a non-videogame character in Smash, whether that character is playable or not, is essentially a step towards Goku.

To get back on topic, I still want to have both Hatsune Miku along with Goku as assist trophies. GeflGabe's reason above seems to justify my statement.

But why would having a 4th party charcater only as an assist trophy or a spirit and not playable trigger an inclusion of Goku or even a pandora's box. Well it would be just like how Sonic's inlusion lead to getting Mega Man and Pac-Man. And in fact, being an assist trophy can be a step for a character to become playable in a sequels. But assist trophies can still be rejected to be playble in the future.

 

[Xelrog]

An assist trophy wouldn't make anyone happy. There's no point adding any new ones. All it will incite is rage that they're deconfirmed. So why bother?

 

[kaithehedgefox]

An assist trophy wouldn't make anyone happy. There's no point adding any new ones. All it will incite is rage that they're deconfirmed. So why bother?

Well the reactions can depend, for example reactions to Kncukles being an assist trophy was "We have another silly assist trophy choice, and he should've been playable.

But if it's someone like Hatsune Miku or Goku, fans will be like "Well thank god he/she isn't a playable character, but least we should still represent their franchises anyway."

 

[wimbearn]

“Your Assist Trophy “suggestions” are so undercooked it made Sora have to hunt for more ingredients!”

 

[osby]

Well the reactions can depend, for example reactions to Kncukles being an assist trophy was "We have another silly assist trophy choice, and he should've been playable.

But if it's someone like Hatsune Miku or Goku, fans will be like "Well thank god he/she isn't a playable character, but least we should still represent their franchises anyway."

That's the point, there's no reason to represent them in any way. Not having Goku won't cause a problem. Why they should represent a non-video game character in a video game crossover?

I like Assist Trophies but they are for video game characters, not manga characters.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Well the reactions can depend, for example reactions to Kncukles being an assist trophy was "We have another silly assist trophy choice, and he should've been playable.

No they weren't. I was fine with Knuckles being an Assist Trophy. You're making things up again. Stop this.

 

[DelugeFGC]

No. No to the assist trophy, no to the character. Smash is for characters with direct origins from video games. Not vocaloids, manga/anime characters (Goku) or anything of the matter.

Just a big no, really, outright. You can say whatever the hell you want to say about what makes a character warranted for Smash, but EVERY pick on the roster came from a video game originally, every damned one. I don't want her as an assist trophy either, because characters such as her literally by definition of what they are do not belong in a video game crossover series.

I also think it is 100% and totally meaningless that a character has APPEARED in a game, because so have real, actual human beings and I wouldn't advocate for them to be in Smash. Smash is for characters FROM, video games. I honestly do not understand how THIS discussion in particular has become so prevalent in the last few years all because of some 3rd party character picks.. there's a BIG difference between 3P characters and characters that aren't from video games period.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

because characters such as her literally by definition of what they are do not belong in a video game crossover series.

This is what some people can't seem to appreciate. The spirit of Smash is a celebration of video games (mainly Nintendo) in the form of a giant crossover. It's different than movies, TV shows, or manga since video games are a completely different media to begin with. Hastune Miku, Goku, Shrek, etc. will never belong in Smash for this reason.

 

[SJMistery]

She ain't fit for a playable character, but it would be fun have her as an assist trophy, she could work similarly to Meloetta.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

also think it is 100% and totally meaningless that a character has APPEARED in a game, because so have real, actual human beings and I wouldn't advocate for them to be in Smash. Smash is for characters FROM, video games. I honestly do not understand how THIS discussion in particular has become so prevalent in the last few years all because of some 3rd party character picks.. there's a BIG difference between 3P characters and characters that aren't from video games period.

No actually, even non-videogame characters have videogames, especially if it's a myriad of them can be major to their franchise.

I see the difference, but it's not as big as you think in my opinion.

She ain't fit for a playable character, but it would be fun have her as an assist trophy, she could work similarly to Meloetta.

I agree, as I've aforementioned, Hatsune Miku and Goku are my 2 of my most wanted assist trophies instead of playable characters. But why do you want her to be an assist trophy instead of playable?

I think Hatsune Miku as an assist trophy would sing and slash opponents with her leek.

This is what some people can't seem to appreciate. The spirit of Smash is a celebration of video games (mainly Nintendo) in the form of a giant crossover. It's different than movies, TV shows, or manga since video games are a completely different media to begin with. Hastune Miku, Goku, Shrek, etc. will never belong in Smash for this reason.

Although I'm fine with having Hatsune Miku and Goku as assist trophies, I don't want Shrek or Spongebob, nor any fancharacters to appear in smash at all. In fact they've all already been deconfirmed for a long time.

 

[Xelrog]

Although I'm fine with having Hatsune Miku and Goku as assist trophies, I don't want Shrek or Spongebob, nor any fancharacters to appear in smash at all. In fact they've all already been deconfirmed for a long time.

But Shrek and SpongeBob have had more video game presence and significance than Miku.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

kaithehedgefox Listen. If a character wants to appear in Smash in any capacity (playable, assist trophy, spirit) they must originate from a video game. It doesn't matter that Goku and Hatsune Miku appear in games, they didn't originate in them, and are thus ineligible to represented in Smash in any form. Until you can come to understand this, discussion here will remain pointless because these characters will never appear in Smash Bros. That's just the way things are, you need to accept that.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

No actually, even non-videogame characters have videogames, especially if it's a myriad of them can be major to their franchise.

I see the difference, but it's not as big as you think in my opinion.

Explain what you mean. This conversation has been going around in circles. Why exactly do you think NVGCs (Non Video Game Characters) can ever qualify as a video game character. You don't seem to understand that if their origin isn't from a video game they will never be recognized as a video game character since that's not the media that created them. Explain to us why you think this "difference" isn't as big as you think.

Also consider the fact that adding Hastune Miku and/or Goku means anyone can possibly be in Smash if they've been in a video game. Under your logic, this would mean characters like Megamind or Shrek or Naruto or literally any Disney character (thanks to Disney Infinity) has just as much of a right to be in the game as your two proposed characters. You say that you wouldn't want any other "fancharacters" but you simply can't do that. Goku and Miku are no different, they're fancharacters as well. You can't just say , "Goku and Miku but no one else." There's no rul or guideline that could possible regulate who gets in that way, as stated before. Once you start adding one NVGS, congratulations, you've opened Pandora's Box. And yes, real life people have appeared in video games, so consider that as well. Now real people who existed would have a shot at being in the game.

You don't seem to understand how this works, do you? If they did not originate from a video game (or related media, ), they will. Never. Be. In. Smash.

Although I'm fine with having Hatsune Miku and Goku as assist trophies, I don't want Shrek or Spongebob, nor any fancharacters to appear in smash at all. In fact they've all already been deconfirmed for a long time.

Wait a minute....hang on....*GASP* Guess what? Miku and Goku have already been deconfirmed for a long time too!

But Shrek and SpongeBob have had more video game presence and significance than Miku.

Damn straight, actually. It makes no sense we're talking about Miku when yes, Shrek and Spongebob technically have more "significance" to video games than her.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

kaithehedgefox Listen. If a character wants to appear in Smash in any capacity (playable, assist trophy, spirit) they must originate from a video game. It doesn't matter that Goku and Hatsune Miku appear in games, they didn't originate in them, and are thus ineligible to represented in Smash in any form. Until you can come to understand this, discussion here will remain pointless because these characters will never appear in Smash Bros. That's just the way things are, you need to accept that.

Thanks! I now understand that only characters who originate in videogames (excluding fancharacters) are legit to appear in Smash in any form.

Explain what you mean. This conversation has been going around in circles. Why exactly do you think NVGCs (Non Video Game Characters) can ever qualify as a video game character. You don't seem to understand that if their origin isn't from a video game they will never be recognized as a video game character since that's not the media that created them. Explain to us why you think this "difference" isn't as big as you think.

You don't seem to understand how this works, do you? If they did not originate from a video game (or related media, ), they will. Never. Be. In. Smash.

Actually, I never considered Non-videogame characters to ever count as videogame characters in any circumstance. I've also understood that their origin isn't from a videogame.

 

[Xelrog]

To be fair, anything is possible at this point.

Obviously many people (myself included) don't think non-video game representatives should be in Smash, and I believe the Smash devs have expressed similar feelings in the eras of past games. It was also said that Villager and Ridley couldn't be in Smash, though. We're in a time when anything could conceivably happen. Smash has become that ubiquitous.

I still don't think it should happen but I'm mentally prepared for the slim possibility that it could happen.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

To be fair, anything is possible at this point.

Obviously many people (myself included) don't think non-video game representatives should be in Smash, and I believe the Smash devs have expressed similar feelings in the eras of past games. It was also said that Villager and Ridley couldn't be in Smash, though. We're in a time when anything could conceivably happen. Smash has become that ubiquitous.

I still don't think it should happen but I'm mentally prepared for the slim possibility that it could happen.

I will admit that the possibility is very slim (not completely impossible), but the series has been around for about 20 years now and if it didn't happen within 20 years, I'm just gonna assume it won't happen at all. Sakurai has recently expressed how much of a licensing nightmare it'd be to include a manga character, and I'm sure it'd be the same with other non-video game characters. The point of the series is to be a massive video game cross-over, and with Sakurai at the helm, I'm sure he both understands and respects that. If Sakurai were to stop being the director, however, that could potentially be a different story...

 

[Xelrog]

I will admit that the possibility is very slim (not completely impossible), but the series has been around for about 20 years now and if it didn't happen within 20 years, I'm just gonna assume it won't happen at all.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I mean Piranha Plant was always a valid candidate because they're a video game character, no matter how much people would've argued against it. We're talking about non-video game characters, that's a whoooole different field with its own set of rules. It'd be nothing like adding a video game character.

 

[Xelrog]

This conversation five years ago:

"I mean Wii Fit Trainer was always a valid candidate because she's got her own game. We're talking about a nameless enemy character. That's a whooole different prospect, it just couldn't happen. It'd be nothing like adding someone who headlines their own Nintendo game."



Eleven years ago:

"Pichu was always a valid candidate because it's a Nintendo character. We're talking about a completely different company with Sonic. That creates a whole bunch of legal issues. It'd be nothing like adding someone actually owned by Nintendo."

 

[TheBeastHimself]

This conversation five years ago:

"I mean Wii Fit Trainer was always a valid candidate because she's got her own game. We're talking about a nameless enemy character. That's a whooole different prospect, it just couldn't happen. It'd be nothing like adding someone who headlines their own Nintendo game."



Eleven years ago:

"Pichu was always a valid candidate because it's a Nintendo character. We're talking about a completely different company with Sonic. That creates a whole bunch of legal issues. It'd be nothing like adding someone actually owned by Nintendo."

Once again, this is different because with those examples we are always talking about video games. Wii Fit Trainer, Piranha Plant, Pichu, Sonic are all video game characters. What you're saying doesn't apply because you are talking about non-video game characters. I get the point you are trying to make: whenever something seems impossible, it always gets proven wrong. But this is completely different because Smash itself is a culmination of strictly video games, so including non-video game characters is just not going to happen. I don't know what more you want to hear, when Sakurai himself stated recently (meaning within the last few months) that non-video game characters would be impossible to include.

Whether you realize it or not, you may be potentially filling kaithehedgefox with false hope and that's not cool.

 

[Xelrog]

I have no agenda, I'm just stating facts. Sakurai himself stated explicitly that Villager wouldn't be in Smash.

 

[Perkilator]

I think this thread just needs to close. It’s going nowhere.

 

[RealPokeFan11]

I think this thread just needs to close. It’s going nowhere.

SHUT IT DOWN!

 

[osby]

I think this thread just needs to close. It’s going nowhere.

I agree, discussion moved away from the original topic.