Thoughts on non-videogame character deconfirmation.

[kaithehedgefox]

At least 10 years ago, Sakurai stated that only videogame characters will be playable, however he seems to be fine with nonvideogame character NPC appearances/references.

So does this officially deconfirm all non-videogame characters as fighters, even if they have had significant videogame history?

Notes:

Bosses, Spirits, Background elements, characters who appear in other moves (such as toad), mii fighter costumes, do not deconfirm playable characters. However, Assist Trophies (and maybe non-videogame characters, and fancharacters are the only 100% deconfirmations).

 

[GoodGrief741]

So does this officially deconfirm all non-videogame characters as fighters, even if they have had significant videogame history?

It is impossible for manga characters to join (Super Smash Bros.).

Yes.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Yes.

Can non-videogame characters still be assist trophies or spirits? Sakurai doesn' seem to be worried about non videogame character NPC apperances or references.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Can non-videogame characters still be assist trophies or spirits? Sakurai doesn' seem to be worried about non videogame character NPC apperances or references.

Probably not, no. Why would they be?

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Probably not, no. Why would they be?

Actually, they can be assist trophies or spirits, but it's their only place in smash they can be. However, fancharacters, such as Weegee and Jeffy, have no place in smash in any form.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Can non-videogame characters still be assist trophies or spirits? Sakurai doesn' seem to be worried about non videogame character NPC apperances or references.

Sakurai specifically mentioned no non-videogame characters in Smash. He said nothing about that rule only applying to playable characters.

Plus it stands to reason that the rules that apply are the same no matter the category.

Actually, they can be assist trophies or spirits, but it's their only place in smash they can be. However, fancharacters, such as Weegee and Jeffy, have no place in smash in any form.

You keep saying that, but you provide neither evidence nor any logical explanation behind it,

 

[Deleted member]

Yes.

>Question is about all non-video game characters
>Sakurai quote in question specifically mentions manga characters

It may be very unlikely for a guest of non-gaming origin to get in because of licensing issues (which was specifically addressed when James Bond was brought up), but Sakurai never did say all guests had to have originated from a video game.

 

[GoodGrief741]

>Question is about all non-video game characters
>Sakurai quote in question specifically mentions manga characters

It may be very unlikely for a guest of non-gaming origin to get in because of licensing issues (which was specifically addressed when James Bond was brought up), but Sakurai never did say all guests had to have originated from a video game.

Sakurai’s given the same reason for James Bond not being in that he gave for manga characters. I think it’s fair to extrapolate that they’re all in the same bag, and just mentioned manga characters specifically because mentioning Goku by name wouldn’t have flown.

 

[hposter]

Actually, they can be assist trophies or spirits, but it's their only place in smash they can be. However, fancharacters, such as Weegee and Jeffy, have no place in smash in any form.

why are we having this conversation at all

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai’s given the same reason for James Bond not being in that he gave for manga characters. I think it’s fair to extrapolate that they’re all in the same bag, and just mentioned manga characters specifically because mentioning Goku by name wouldn’t have flown.

Except he didn't give any reason for manga characters. He just said they would be "impossible", which just means he's not able to include them.
...which he's also said before about guests in general...and Ridley....

As for what he's said about James Bond:
-Goldeneye 007 for the N64 was a RARE LTD. IP which was a legal hurdle (why do you think the Motion-Sensor Bombs in Melee and the Cloaking Device from Perfect Dark didn't say where they were from?)
-Realistic firearms couldn't be included (this is why Snake uses explosives)
-The actor's likeness is a legal hurdle
-Goldeneye 007 is a game based on a film, so the rights for the character himself don't belong to RARE to begin with; a MAJOR legal hurdle to be even able to obtain the rights for

Only the last part could possibly be attributed to other non-gaming guests (unless they're film characters portrayed by an actor; then the third one applies too), and that honestly varies per character based on who owns that character's/character's franchise's rights.
Like, Goku may have a crapton of companies Sakurai would have to work with, but someone like Scrooge McDuck only has one.

Please don't make any claims when you don't have the facts right.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Actually, they can be assist trophies or spirits, but it's their only place in smash they can be. However, fancharacters, such as Weegee and Jeffy, have no place in smash in any form.

So which assist trophies and spirits in Ultimate arenot from a video game? Please tell me

 

[Deleted member]

So which assist trophies and spirits in Ultimate arenot from a video game? Please tell me

Technically, the ones from games based on japanese folklore like the one for the monkey Goku.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Non-VGC's will never be in Smash bros, as a fighter, assist trophy, or even a spirit. Why is it so damn hard for people to understand this?

I understand there are one or 2 weird Japanese ones as spirits but that's it.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Technically, the ones from games based on japanese folklore like the one for the monkey Goku.

The games called yuyukuri isn’t it? (Pardon my spelling from memory) and it’s a Nintendo game based on a folklore. Like The game Hikari and Donbe are from? So it is a Nintendo game.

 

[Storm0943]

I heavily doubt that Sakurai would add non-video game characters.
Just because there are games like Marvel and Dragonball that are based on other forms of media, doesn't mean they will be in smash.

Non-VGS's will never be in Smash bros, as a fighter, assist trophy, or even a spirit. Why is it so damn hard for people to understand this?

I understand there are one or 2 weird Japanese ones as spirits but that's it.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Basically, this is the one thing Sakurai won't budge on. Especially concerning characters that require actor likenesses, like James Bond.

Public domain characters are fine, but generally those from folklore, myths and legends are included in some form so far.

Sadly, some people like a certain user I won't name deny this heavily.

The games called yuyukuri isn’t it? (Pardon my spelling from memory) and it’s a Nintendo game based on a folklore. Like The game Hikari and Donbe are from? So it is a Nintendo game.

Yuyuki.

Technically, the ones from games based on japanese folklore like the one for the monkey Goku.

Also, Greek myths that the Glory of Heracles and Kid Icarus are based on (that latter one's generally loose, even then), and the elephant in the room: Castlevania.

 

[Ridrool64]

At least, as long as Sakurai is in charge. A new director might not see the problem and give us Goku, or they might agree and continue to gate them away.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Except he didn't give any reason for manga characters. He just said they would be "impossible", which just means he's not able to include them.
...which he's also said before about guests in general...and Ridley....

As for what he's said about James Bond:
-Goldeneye 007 for the N64 was a RARE LTD. IP which was a legal hurdle (why do you think the Motion-Sensor Bombs in Melee and the Cloaking Device from Perfect Dark didn't say where they were from?)
-Realistic firearms couldn't be included (this is why Snake uses explosives)
-The actor's likeness is a legal hurdle
-Goldeneye 007 is a game based on a film, so the rights for the character himself don't belong to RARE to begin with; a MAJOR legal hurdle to be even able to obtain the rights for

Only the last part could possibly be attributed to other non-gaming guests (unless they're film characters portrayed by an actor; then the third one applies too), and that honestly varies per character based on who owns that character's/character's franchise's rights.
Like, Goku may have a crapton of companies Sakurai would have to work with, but someone like Scrooge McDuck only has one.

Please don't make any claims when you don't have the facts right.

It is impossible for manga characters to join (Super Smash Bros.).

While we can accept characters from other companies, we cannot, under any circumstances, take in anything and everything under the sky. That’s because (Super Smash Bros.) is a game that requires everyone’s cooperation.

Given that he mentions that Smash Bros. is a game that requires everyone’s cooperation, I think that might be taken to assume that it means licensing is tough.

If the James Bond IP (owned by a single company, being Eon) was tough to license, any IP would be.

I would also like to call attention to the other statement. ‘We cannot take in anything and everything under the sky’. That, at least to me, suggests Sakurai has a limit as to what he considers Smash-worthy and what he doesn’t. It’s not an anything goes situation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Non-VGC's will never be in Smash bros, as a fighter, assist trophy, or even a spirit. Why is it so damn hard for people to understand this?

I understand there are one or 2 weird Japanese ones as spirits but that's it.

And yet he has no problems mentioning non-game characters at all. It only applies as a Fighter specifically, which is the only context he ever noted non-game characters in. That's the only time they're pretty much disconfirmed.

Let's not pretend Ash is a game character first and foremost. Yet he's part of a trophy description for Pokemon Trainer. The Captain N show is directly referenced(just not by name) in two of Palutena's Guidances(for Simon and MegaMan). He literally uses the anime design for Misty as a trophy in Melee, not her game design. So no, this isn't really a correct rule at all. We know for a fact he has no issue referencing non-game materials. The issue is licensing at best, and always was that. There is no stigma against it and never was. He just knows how difficult it is, hence laughing at the idea of some being remotely possible.

 

[Robertman2]

Honestly I could see a promo pick for Ultimate Alliance 3. I doubt it, but eh

also considering stuff like Tekken, Soul Calibur, and Mortal Kombat have had guests from movies and tv shows and books and the like, I don't think licensing is as problematic as some people say it is

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Honestly I could see a promo pick for Ultimate Alliance 3. I doubt it, but eh

also considering stuff like Tekken, Soul Calibur, and Mortal Kombat have had guests from movies and tv shows and books and the like, I don't think licensing is as problematic as some people say it is

I think Harada and Boon don't even operate on rules to begin with. Though you do have to admit that there needs to be some sort of logic applied when adding guests, otherwise it gets...nonsensical (Gon in Tekken? Darth Vader in Soul Calibur? The Rabbids in TMNT?).

The key thing is general consistency within a given fighting game's motif, otherwise you break the suspension of disbelief for people, as far as that goes for crazy fighting games, anyway. Even within Mortal Kombat the in-universe reasons why the guests are Kombatants are flimsy at best.

Sure, one could add a manga-related character and it'd be neat, but still pretty weird when the point of Smash is about video game characters punching each other. It could also easily lead to a snowballing effect, with people wanting characters from various manga publications, tokusatsu shows, comics and Western cartoons (although I'm sure Fatmanonice would appreciate that last one).

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

So what? Are we now arguing that misty (a Nintendo character!) appearing as a trophy based on her design from a tv show (based on a Nintendo property!) is evidence for adding Goku from Dragonball Z (admit it, that’s who we are talking about) to smash bros?

 

[Storm0943]

So what? Are we now arguing that misty (a Nintendo character!) appearing as a trophy based on her design from a tv show (based on a Nintendo property!) is evidence for adding Goku from Dragonball Z (admit it, that’s who we are talking about) to smash bros?

Soooo true.

Personally, I don't feel like Goku would fit into smash bros.

That's why there is Super Smash Flash 2!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly I could see a promo pick for Ultimate Alliance 3. I doubt it, but eh

also considering stuff like Tekken, Soul Calibur, and Mortal Kombat have had guests from movies and tv shows and books and the like, I don't think licensing is as problematic as some people say it is

Keep in mind Sakurai licenses a ton of characters already. In many cases, those non-game characters have multiple companies to license through. Goku has multiple as well, which is what makes him unfeasible alone. It's not like he wouldn't sell like hotcakes, being a cultural icon and all. But there's things to remember like the original manga creator, the anime ownerships, and more. I think it was around 5 different licenses to go through? I think for Star Wars characters, there might be... 2 at best. George Lucas and Disney now. I could be wrong on how many per, of course. You might notice many 3rd parties have awful costumes, sometimes low amount of music too. Or even not an English voice actor. It's still a lot to license with what he has now. In the case of Final Fantasy, the music isn't even owned by Square, which is why we only have 2 songs(the composer charges a lot, which makes it even hard for Square to get the original songs. They make some of their own for the newer games). But we also have 2 spirits, literally being Cloud and Cloud.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

The only two things against a character, from any origin, getting in are the desire of Sakurai and/or Nintendo and the willingness of an IP holder(s) to license their character to them. There isn't a hard rule against non-game characters, despite whatever fan rule was invented this time.

 

[andree123]

Megami Tensei is a non-videogame franchise because it started as a novel, so...
Are characters from novel franchises are allowed to join in?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Well, something is clearly keeping people like Goku and Luffy out. Hell if I know what it is, exactly.

Although personally speaking, there's probably some unknown limitation set in place, if only so some character wants (like Geno and Isaac) don't become even more ignored in favor of licensed characters.

Megami Tensei is a non-videogame franchise because it started as a novel, so...
Are characters from novel franchises are allowed to join in?

Depends on the novel. Square-Enix has to pay the rights to the author of Parasite Eve every time they use the title, which is why the third game wound up being called The Third Birthday.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

Soooo true.

Personally, I don't feel like Goku would fit into smash bros.

That's why there is Super Smash Flash 2!

Goku would be best as an Assist Trophy because he's not a videogame character. What other non-videogame characters that are deconfirmed as fighters should be assist trophies or spirits?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

Goku would be best as an Assist Trophy because he's not a videogame character. What other non-videogame characters that are deconfirmed as fighters should be assist trophies or spirits?

Batman and the TMNT, because they actually have iconic video game music, at the very least.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

Goku would be best as an Assist Trophy because he's not a videogame character. What other non-videogame characters that are deconfirmed as fighters should be assist trophies or spirits?

What? There shouldn’t be any non video game characters of any kind serving any purpose in a game that’s about combining the characters from video games.
Where is the disconnect?
I’m struggling to see the other side of this argument. Please can anyone explain to me why a dragonball z cartoon character should belong in a lineup next to Donkey Kong, Samus, and Pikachu?

 

[TheCJBrine]

We could probably get Pokemon characters like Jessie & James with Meowth, but otherwise yes except Popeye because Popeye.

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

We could probably get Pokemon characters like Jessie & James with Meowth, but otherwise yes except Popeye because Popeye.

It doesn't hurt that LGP gave them another official video game appearance, regardless of how most people feel about those games.

 

[Lenidem]

And yet he has no problems mentioning non-game characters at all. It only applies as a Fighter specifically, which is the only context he ever noted non-game characters in. That's the only time they're pretty much disconfirmed.

Let's not pretend Ash is a game character first and foremost. Yet he's part of a trophy description for Pokemon Trainer. The Captain N show is directly referenced(just not by name) in two of Palutena's Guidances(for Simon and MegaMan). He literally uses the anime design for Misty as a trophy in Melee, not her game design. So no, this isn't really a correct rule at all. We know for a fact he has no issue referencing non-game materials. The issue is licensing at best, and always was that. There is no stigma against it and never was. He just knows how difficult it is, hence laughing at the idea of some being remotely possible.

Referencing an anime inspired by a video game is not the same as using anime/comic book/manga characters that have appeared in video games... It's the exact opposite.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Referencing an anime inspired by a video game is not the same as using anime/comic book/manga characters that have appeared in video games... It's the exact opposite.

Ash is an exact example of that. He's an anime character entirely. He is not a game character. Nintendo happened to own him, making him easier to license for any game usage. That's the only reason he gets referenced. He also had no canonical game appearances before 4, which is when he gets referenced. Ash-Greninja was also chosen for a Final Smash despite being a strict anime character. No, Lucario doesn't count as he was made for the games. Ash and Ash-Greninja were made strictly for the anime(and Ash is also from the Manga too). They are anime characters. Sakurai has no issues referencing them despite this so-called "manga characters won't join the battle". Oh, wait, that's what his actual rule always was. Join the Battle. He doesn't give a rat's ass whatsoever about cameos as long as they aren't playable, which is actually the rule he made.

You're stretching it if you think Sakurai cares about it that much. You actually think that it being a game first mattered much to reference anime-specific things? No. Because much of the time he has looked at the anime itself to decide characters. In fact, he's based movesets off of them, not the games. He only looks at the anime due to how much of a massive influence it has, including debuting before the games in some countries. Some didn't even know it started as a game series(coincidentally, same issue with Digimon. Except it has a better anime, but still debuted as a game series).

The problem also with that logic is thinking that he ever said anything about characters' origins mattering for anything but playable appearances. That's not what he ever meant and people are stretching the facts to intentionally create a tub of misinformation. Doesn't really matter why they stretch the facts. It's still incorrect and always was. If he actually cared about no anime/manga/etc. stuff he wouldn't allow anything like that to be referenced alone. Ash would not be there. He doesn't care the origin of a character that much at all. He just knows it's a licensing nightmare, and is why he even dismissed Banjo & Kazooie very quickly. The only reason too. When he literally puts James Bond and Banjo & Kazooie equals, it gives you a clear idea his issue is blatantly licensing. People really need to stop looking for something that isn't there. It's still a licensing issue and always will be.

 

[Lenidem]

Ash and Ash-Greninja were made strictly for the anime(and Ash is also from the Manga too). They are anime characters.

Inspired by the video game, that's what I said. By referencing it in Smash, the circle comes full.

You actually think that it being a game first mattered much to reference anime-specific things?

Yes. I do think that characters like Misty, the team Rocket, or even Captain N are totally different than Gokû, Batman, or the Ninja Turtles. Every gamer knows that the two groups have totally different origins.

Now I might be wrong, of course. Maybe one day Shrek and Spider-Man will join the brawl. I hope not, because it would be the day I stop playing Smash.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Inspired by the video game, that's what I said. By referencing it in Smash, the circle comes full.Yes. I do think that characters like Misty, the team Rocket, or even Captain N are totally different than Gokû, Batman, or the Ninja Turtles. Every gamer knows that the two groups have totally different origins.

Now I might be wrong, of course. Maybe one day Shrek and Spider-Man will join the brawl. I hope not, because it would be the day I stop playing Smash.

Team Rocket(the ones in question) are not game characters. Captain N is not a game character in any way nor has had a legitimate game appearance. He is referenced purely by proxy, but it's the show that is referenced in Smash, not the character alone. Wouldn't stop him from getting in if Nintendo says yes to it. It'd even be his first legitimate game appearance. There is no legitimate difference. Misty is actual a game character, it's her design that was strictly from the anime(which they definitely needed permission to use that alone due to separate artists. The actual anime artists are not the same as the game artists. It required additional licensing. Why on earth they used that? Who knows. Might've been easier to render than the Pokemon Stadium models? Actually, she might not have a model in there either. I think her first true model is in HG/SS). They're non-game characters no matter how you stretch it.

Not that I think we'll actually have non-game characters join the brawl(that means playable). Cameos/AT's/Spirits/etc. were always fair game. Which is the point being made. Non-game stuff does get in Smash, just not as playable. He has to license or work with the companies to get these references, so he's going out of his way for stuff like MegaMan and Simon's Guidance. The interesting thing is that Captain N is a pretty despised series(which is solely a comic or cartoon), so the fact the companies like Konami and Capcom Japan agreed to reference it via their characters is crazy in itself. Maybe they don't care about the series like Nintendo does(who pretty much have a hard time treating anything they didn't outright make poorly. Like the CD-i games. There's zero reason to ignore them. They're a part of your character's history. Get over it. Declaring it non-canon is beyond fair, though. They don't fit within the series properly anyway).

 

[Lenidem]

I know all that, and I agree with your last post. To be clear, I just believe that having stickers, trophies, assists, spirits or fighters of anime series inspired by video games (and I think you will agree that Jessie and James are inspired by the Team Rocket NPC from Pokémon Red and Blue), even loosely (Captain is a cross-over celebrating NES games... my God, it's the spiritual ancestor of Smash!! ) is one thing, and that Mario summoning Batman so that he can shoot batarangs at Link is another.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I know all that, and I agree with your last post. To be clear, I just believe that having stickers, trophies, assists, spirits or fighters of anime series inspired by video games (and I think you will agree that Jessie and James are inspired by the Team Rocket NPC from Pokémon Red and Blue), even loosely (Captain is a cross-over celebrating NES games... my God, it's the spiritual ancestor of Smash!! ) is one thing, and that Mario summoning Batman so that he can shoot batarangs at Link is another.

I have a hard time seeing a single difference between one anime character and a comic character, really.

And no, they weren't really based upon the grunts. The grunts exist in the anime too. Jessie and James were their only thing made to be an actual proper threat to Ash, which they did far more than a single generic Rocket Member did. They weren't based upon anyone in particular. The executives didn't exist yet.

 

[HYRULESHERO42]

You’re deciding to be ignorant of obvious similarities just to justify your argument. Jessie and James ARE team rocket grunts. They are just given personalities to give the tv show more character and substance. Rocket Grunts are Nintendo.

Dragonball, TMNT, Batman are NOT Nintendo or Nintendo based.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

They're 100% anime characters and were never grunts to begin with. They are not their equivalent and never were meant to be. They're their own thing. Grunts are actual adapted characters into the anime with no names and just get pushed around like they do in the games. Even using the same Pokemon. Jessie and James are their own thing, enough that they don't replace anyone when they were given appearances in the games. As well as their own unique sprites(including with Meowth).

Even the games are well aware they have a different position in the Team Rocket standings. Pretending they're grunts is actually a lack of knowledge on what the show is. What they are are actual major characters who report directly to Giovanni, while Grunts just report to their current Executive. They're not remotely the same thing. If you'd paid attention to the anime, Team Rocket is quite full of different executives, and levels of command. Including superiors that report directly to Giovanni(which Jessie, James, and Meowth are the only 3 to first speak to Giovanni directly out of any way. They didn't even introduce any of their superiors till the games did, meaning they were definitely different from your generic male and female grunt). They didn't even wear the uniforms until they had to "start over at the bottom". I'd suggest doing research before saying blatantly incorrect information. Cause you seriously have no idea what their role is in the anime if you think the actual main villains of the show(them) are somehow generic nameless grunts(which is actually all the games had besides Giovanni, at least till Jessie and James were created in the anime to introduce actual Team Rocket-related characters instead of generic mooks).