Thought experiment: What if there was no ledge intangibility?

[Necro'lic]

This is a spur of the moment idea of me trying to see how to theoretically make edgeguarding more than just waiting for someone to get back on stage basically. I have many more ideas on how to go about it, but this particular idea could have many more ramifications.

So, how would the game of Smash Bros Ultimate be if ledge intangibility was just gone in all forms. As in, hanging on the ledge gives no intangibility. You can still get it from regular ledge getup, ledge roll, and ledge attack, but not while hanging or grabbing onto it.

The 2 frame vulnerability would not matter, because they are vulnerable the entire time they are hanging on. That's a big one I can think of, but would this potentially make edgeguarding more interesting? That is the goal of these ideas I have in mind after all.

 

[Orlando BCN]

Sounds good. Helps to fight off people who like retreating.

 

[Leaf_It]

With no intangibility going off the stage would be a suicide wish. In any given match, I or my opponent would just instantly win the second the other touches the ledge, because I would hit them with a smash attack, while they're grabbing animation is preventing them from doing anything about it. The intangibility is an absolute necessity to making recovering possible. Rushing down characters, and command grab characters would instantly be bumped up 2 tiers. If any were A tier they would be S tier, if any were S tier, they would create SS tier.

 

[Marmotbro]

Stocks would go much quicker. The meta would be way more focused on characters who can control the stage and edge guard effectively. So sword characters and spacers would reign supreme as they can get a combo on you, push you off the ledge and you die trying to get back. People with really bad recoveries would have no place in the meta. so characters like would be **** on more then usual, and characters like would be the only ones played.

 

[Necro'lic]

Marmotbro and Leaf_It

Okay, this is good feedback I think. So one of you mentioned the ability to just attack them on the ledge. I think this particular flaw is kinda brushing past the fact that the 2 frame vulnerability makes this already possible, just much more difficult. However, the other says people with bad recoveries would be far worse off, and yeah, they would be, definitely. However, Marmotbro , I think you specifically might be a bit hyperbolic in your assumptions considering this wouldn't change full offstage play really.

This leads into a second idea to MAYBE counteract both of these. Two parts.

1: Give everyone better recoveries overall, albeit with more vulnerability

This was another way to counteract this idea. It's a bit difficult, but there was one universal mechanic idea I had in the form of an air dash that could be done in all directions. It was basically like a directional airdodge in Ultimate where you had only one in the air, except you can attack during it BUT can be body blocked during it too unlike airdodge. With every character having both a directional airdodge and an air dash to work with, offstage could potentially be far less punishing for even low recovery characters, but when you remember that the enemy also has an air dash to attack out of, well... it's not easy, but it's not hopeless. However, that's a REALLY out there proposition.

2: Remove ledge grab timer

Right now there is a wait time between grabbing the ledge and being able to do anything. It is brief but it is there. What if that was gone too, so grabbing the ledge means a quick getup option that actually does have intangibility. A downside that works against the enemy is if the other player ledge trumps right before they grab the ledge, they will be trumped off of it. Thus allowing the onstage player to bypass this quick getup attempt, putting them back in disadvantage. After all, the ledge should still be disadvantageous to the recovering player.

 

[Marmotbro]

even if those two things were in place someone like with large disjoints could just spam Fairs and dtilt at ledge and you would not come back unless you were someone hard to contest in the air like or. God, it would be impossible to come back against unless you could go high, you might as well put down the controller at that point.

Air dodge would be cool, but a lot of aerials have long or lingering hitboxes, meaning they could cover it if it is your only or one of your only options. Stuff like upair could cover both a airdash and airdodge.

Ledge timer wouldn't help against someone dtilting at the ledge, they could just stuff you until you die or try to go over the ledge, and right into their aerials.

For the characters I main it would be fun as **** for me however.

 

[Necro'lic]

even if those two things were in place someone like with large disjoints could just spam Fairs and dtilt at ledge and you would not come back unless you were someone hard to contest in the air like or. God, it would be impossible to come back against unless you could go high, you might as well put down the controller at that point.

Air dodge would be cool, but a lot of aerials have long or lingering hitboxes, meaning they could cover it if it is your only or one of your only options. Stuff like upair could cover both a airdash and airdodge.

Ledge timer wouldn't help against someone dtilting at the ledge, they could just stuff you until you die or try to go over the ledge, and right into their aerials.

For the characters I main it would be fun as **** for me however.

Well again, it would be instant ledge getup. It would just force a ledge get up option immediately, but it's not like that's too crazy, considering all but two options have intangibility to combat those repeated attacks. And if you couldn't combat them, then most likely you couldn't combat them presently because they would most likely be 2-frames. Plus, you have an instant drop down fair to combat them back on if you don't count those intangibility options.

I don't think it would be as bad as you say. Even with the Snake example with maybe a C4 or Grenade at the edge, the other player can simply getup and shield if the Snake player tries to detonate immediately, or just ledge roll away. Or drop down and just land on stage after the detonation. There should be plenty of ways to get around it.

 

[Marmotbro]

Well again, it would be instant ledge getup. It would just force a ledge get up option immediately, but it's not like that's too crazy, considering all but two options have intangibility to combat those repeated attacks. And if you couldn't combat them, then most likely you couldn't combat them presently because they would most likely be 2-frames. Plus, you have an instant drop down fair to combat them back on if you don't count those intangibility options.

Nah. someone who can spam a dtilt over the ledge would be able to hit you before or right as you snap to the ledge. even if you do get to ledge you have to immediately get up, get up attack or roll, all of which are unsafe, unless you are someone like villager who can jump fair. It might not be as bad as I'm saying, but I'm just prepared for the worst.

I don't think it would be as bad as you say. Even with the Snake example with maybe a C4 or Grenade at the edge, the other player can simply getup and shield if the Snake player tries to detonate immediately, or just ledge roll away. Or drop down and just land on stage after the detonation. There should be plenty of ways to get around it.

You underestimate the power of snake. Often times the only thing saving them from the salvo is they have the option to hang at the ledge for a little bit. 2 Grenades, a C4, a charged upsmash and or a nikita all at good spots means you are not coming back. And it is easy to get those out in time on a good hit. If i didn't have to worry about them waiting out the grenades and upsmash I could completely cut off the ledge unless they want to eat high ordinance.

 

[NightKev]

This is a spur of the moment idea of me trying to see how to theoretically make edgeguarding more than just waiting for someone to get back on stage basically.

It sounds like you (and/or your main) are just bad at edge guarding. It's so obviously not "just waiting for someone to get back on stage basically" unless your opponent's character has a top tier recovery (and they're very good at making full use of it) and your character has little ability to contest it (and you're bad at using what tools you do have).

 

[RepStar]

Then id drop this game like a oven pan with no mitts. That would be legit bull****. Ness would be gimped into oblivion.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

if there was not ledge intangibility, then players would try to cheese each other at the edge of the stage, because now the ledge is the worst position to be in the game, every single option to use on the ledge is slower that using on stage, this would actually make edgeguard more boring, because if i am marth and i fighting somebody with bad recovery i -an spam D-tilt until they die because even if they touch the ledge my D-tilt would still hit them, hell imagine this in melee it would make falco vs marth a living hell to the bird.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Stocks would go much quicker. The meta would be way more focused on characters who can control the stage and edge guard effectively. So sword characters and spacers would reign supreme as they can get a combo on you, push you off the ledge and you die trying to get back. People with really bad recoveries would have no place in the meta. so characters like would be **** on more then usual, and characters like would be the only ones played.

would have LOL tier just for him.

Then id drop this game like a oven pan with no mitts. That would be legit bull****. Ness would be gimped into oblivion.

would gatekeep 3/4 of the cast with his Yo-Yo.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

There are already enough mechanics in place to prevent ledge camping. This would just turn it into some Melee style form of edgeguarding where your opponent is at there most vulnerable near the edge.