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This game NEEDS more hype.

Yobolight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
1,126
I mean people don't play Falcon unless they want to handicap themselves because Pikachu has a better matchup against the entire cast. Pikachu is way better against Kirby than Falcon, Pikachu is better against Fox than Falcon, Pikachu is way better against Mario than Falcon, etc...

I mean you could main Pikachu and use Falcon as a secondary against Pikachu, but that seems like a lot of extra work when you could just play Pikachu and have a distinct advantage against the entire cast and have an even MU against Pika.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
Those are all stage dependent matchups. I prefer falcon v fox on anywhere not named dreamland. I prefer falcon v mario anywhere.
 

Yobolight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
1,126
I mean I don't think that you actually believe that the Falcon/Mario matchup is better than the Pika/Mario matchup.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
I totally do. Falcon's speed is especially useful against the relatively slow speed of mario. Mario's hitboxes aren't great so a lot of the hits end up being trades, and since falcon is so fast he can turn trades into combos. Mario does a whole lot of sh fireball or sh dair-uair, both of which are EXTREMELY vulnerable to usmash. Again, even if the usmash trades with mario's dair, you will get the combo. Pikachu does far better at recovering vs mario, but falcon dominates the stage so much more that I think it makes it better for falcon. I've noticed a lot of people saying that pika is far better vs mario than falcon is ever since bcow made some comment about it a while back... I don't think its a coincidence. Don't wanna get into a matchup discussion in this thread though.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
I'm not sure why I insisted on Pika dittoing A$ instead of using Falcon. My Falcon was on fire whenever I used him that weekend. Whoops.

btw, 4 stocks might be a reasonable change. I think that 5-stocks might just be an outdated convention, even though it was shot down the last time this was brought up. Everyone is saying our game takes too long though especially due to no timer so it's a discussion worth revisiting.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
You should have gone falcon, its A$'s weakness (secrets revealed!)

The thing about match length though is that I don't think hardly any of our games are over the 8 minute mark, which is the max time for melee/brawl matches. So yea our average match length is probably longer, but its not like we are having these crazy insanely long games that other games don't have. I think pika dittos just seem to take forever because they are very repetitive. Watch a pika ditto for 1 stock and you've seen about all you need to see for the match. I would have no problem watch 10 minutes of pika v falcon.

4 stock falcon dittos sound so rough though lol. Falcon dittos should be like 7 stock, everything else can be 4 stock.
 

banze

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
315
Location
São Paulo - Brazil
I actually enjoyed the matches and the commentaries!
Really, good job having more matches recorded with good quality setups, and with different commentators to! it made the experience of watching those matches so much funnier.
And it is nice to see friendly faces again !

I really liked Jimmyjoe and Han commentating, very intelligent and knowledge overall! Needs a little more hype though.

I thought what the matches really need to get more hyped is audience. You could heard people cheering for melee all the time but couldn't see nobody watching 64.
 

DMoogle

A$
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
2,366
Location
Northern VA, USA
Well, the one obvious "solution" here is banning Hyrule, since Hyrule is what made the matches so long. Making something more pleasing for viewers isn't a valid reason to ban Hyrule, but for the sake of our competitive game it might be a good decision.
FWIW I don't think any of the matches were unreasonable length. I would be very surprised if any of my matches extended beyond 6 minutes. Most were quite a bit shorter. People groaned at Pika dittos, and they groaned more when Hyrule was chosen. However, I think the latter is more of a factor of people EXPECTING the match to take forever, even though they really didn't.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
Yeah maybe we should just let this whole thing be, though I still would not be opposed at all to having 4-stock games. The northeast just happens to be very Pikachu heavy compared to other regions, and it was compounded by the fact that both boom and I used Pikachu which we typically do not do.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
one could probably reasonably argue it would have the inverse effect. the fewer lives you have to win, the more defensive/campy the match will turn out to be.
 

Yobolight

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
1,126
one could probably reasonably argue it would have the inverse effect. the fewer lives you have to win, the more defensive/campy the match will turn out to be.
The players who attend tournaments should already be good enough to not play recklessly regardless of their stock count. I am in favor of 4 stock matches.
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 6, 2012
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2,005
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Isle of ゆぅ
Not only is it Pika centered, but it is also 4 top characters centered.

I guess general feeling is you can't say no to the play to win style, so there isn't an easy way out.

And banning stuff won't help.
4 stocks is always interesting in itself.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
I'd like to stay at 5 stocks.

I have a legit shot at beating anyone in North America outside of Boom and Isai with a mid tier. Because I worked my ass off to learn all the match ups. You guys can do it too.

Nangoku came to Apex, having to deal with a nerfed Ness and stages his community literally has no experience on, and still got top 8.

People just like to go the easy route me thinks.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
You are right people do love the easy route. I mean your pikachu was about on par with your yoshi after a few days of practice imo. I know you would disagree with me on that, but they are at least decently close. I had a friend who came to zenith who was one stock away from making it out of pools, and he hadn't played real smash in like 5 years. He just went kirby and was able to put up a really good fight. Pikachu and kirby are just super easy mode, its pretty ridiculous. There just isn't a whole lot of incentive for any new players to pick up one of the not top 4 characters other than "it would be cool to be good with X" when they could instead pick up a top 4 character and be better faster. Its sad though, I wish there were more diversity in tournaments too.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
4 characters is one third of the cast.That's really not any different from the other smash games. In fact in Brawl I'd say the percentage of commonly used characters is smaller.
 

Ceasar

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
110
I'm not sure how it feels to use high-tier characters like Pikachu in tournaments (I've yet to do so), but competing in tournaments with characters like Mario and Luigi has always brought to me a lot of appreciation for this game. I don't only do it for winning, but, more importantly, I also want to show these characters are more than capable of competing in high-level play. Plus, it adds more of a challenge for me, which makes the competitive scene more exciting, regardless if I lose or not. I'll only get better at the match-ups as I keep at it. =)
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
Yea it just blows because our cast is so small to begin with that a third of the cast means that only 10 matchups are important. And kirby/falcon is avoided at all costs usually so really only 9 come into play regularly. And then for watchability the kirby/kirby, pika/pika, kirby/pika matchups aren't very entertaining. So there are about 6 entertaining matchups that occur regularly in tournies, and that gets old quick for spectators. Sigh, I just want more characters lol.

We should definitely have some sort of low tier side event, or even better a random character selection side event. That would be fun
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
from the index

Ness
  • Less lag after landing with PK Thunder 2
  • PK Thunder 2's hitbox lasts longer and is 5% stronger
  • U-Tilt is 1% stronger but has lower knockback
  • U-Air is 2% stronger
  • PK Fire is 9% weaker total
  • All smash attacks are 2% stronger at all points
 

B-Town

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
112
Location
Montreal, QC
Since Boom played pikachu and kirby it kinda made GF pretty boring. Plays smash all day and johns about not being able to warm up for falcon... I also think Nintendude has a solid shot with Mario because of the players at this tournament were clearly familiar with their pika/kirby matchups.

Smash is interesting when it is an art, but pika/pika pika/kirby and kirby/kirby matchups are played like a science.

Once again the commentary was great, from all the commentators I've heard these are my ten cents:
LD & Boomfan: Most entertaining
Han and Jimmyjoe: Well rounded commentary, entertaining, good info about gameplay and about players (something many commentators don't do well)
Nintendude & Battlecow: Hype and lots of good info (I basically learned competitive play from Isai vs Kikoushi) Noticed a lot of times they would explain things they obviously both knew but the audience didn't.

Even Sensei & Dogysamich were good at Apex 2012. The merits of having melee commentators are that they are very experienced and since they have lower knowledge of the game they get their co-commentator talking a lot too.
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
One thing that was mentioned to me is that our commentators don't have the same presence as the known Melee commentators. They don't really command your attention when you are watching. They are just sort of talking there in the background. I can see where people are getting that impression from. A lot of it just comes down to one's charisma and quality of voice.

Overall though I think what we saw at Zenith is that we have a handful of players capable of coherent commentary. I'd like to see you guys try to develop the skill more at locals.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
i haven't really gotten ignorant on commentary and i want to...maybe at the next summer tourney. also, can't wait for knitephox's videos to go up. i think me and boom did live commentary for our own match. it wasn't fun to get 4 stocked but it was hilarious playing like that.

also: whose recording setup was on the first set of tables when you walked in, to the left? it was in between two other televisions...going to a silver mac laptop...
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
i haven't really gotten ignorant on commentary and i want to...maybe at the next summer tourney. also, can't wait for knitephox's videos to go up. i think me and boom did live commentary for our own match. it wasn't fun to get 4 stocked but it was hilarious playing like that.

also: whose recording setup was on the first set of tables when you walked in, to the left? it was in between two other televisions...going to a silver mac laptop...

I believe that was han solo's. I played a tourney match with him on it and he said he would upload it right away so I'm pretty sure its his.

Yea with regards to commentary, it definitely takes practice to get good at. I tried for the first time this weekend and it wasn't that great. After listening to some of it so far, it isn't horrible, but it definitely needs some refining. Its also kind of tough to get hype for pool matches that end in 4 or 5 stocks lol.
 

Kefit

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 2, 2003
Messages
357
Location
Bellevue, WA
Pika vs Pika on Dreamland is a really intense and pure test of the neutral game skills of the players. At Apex 2013 I must have spent 8+ hours playing this matchup against players like Banze, Boom, and Sensei without getting bored. Good spacing and neutral gameplay is endlessly fascinating whether I'm watching it or executing it myself. Really, this aspect of the game is the most important part of high level competitive play. Isai is so good primarily because he beats everyone else at the neutral game; his combos are but an entertaining bonus in the face of his prodigious spacing and prediction skills. I know everyone loves the combos, but there's a lot more to this game than that. Besides, what exactly is interesting about Falcon's random free dash dance/hit confirm -> grab -> death combo strings once you've seen them a few times? Also, remember that Boom vs Isai at Genesis 2011 were longggggg matches on Dreamland despite *gasp* neither player using Pikachu!

Spacing intensive matches where the players try to grind out an advantage on Dreamland are fine. They typically only take 5-6 minutes at most because neither player can just break off and run away whenever he wants (unlike Hyrule). SSB combos are great fun when they happen (for both players and spectators), but the sky isn't falling if a match doesn't contain three death combos/gimps from each player.

I do understand the desire to see more characters used at the high end in tournaments, but the SSB64 tournament scene has always been heavy on Pika/Kirby/Falcon/Fox. The only difference at Zenith is that we saw a lot of Pikachus instead of a lot of Falcons and Foxes. Big whoop. It's awesome that good Yoshi players are coming out of the woodwork, and it would be awesome if some DK lords appeared too. DK can wreck **** on Dreamland, and I think it would be hella hype if Isai goes DK at Apex 2014, for example. But we can't exactly force players to play these more esoteric characters if they don't want to. Picking Pika isn't exactly a panacea either - for instance, Nintendude totally should have stuck with Mario, his Pika has good movement and spacing fundamentals but had a lot of weird aerial move choices.

As far as commentators go:
- Nintendude + Battlecow at Apex 2013 were excellent. Nintendude knows the game very well and Battlecow gets on the hype. I'm sure the pro-Isai bias will be worked on a bit.
- Boom was excellent at Zenith. He knows the game inside and out and is able to articulate good insights into the match being played out. I had a hell of a time discussing Apex 2013 GFs with him as they played out, and he brought that same quality to his commentary. No one else seems to be hype for his commentary though, perhaps he comes off as less approachable than I think or I simply jive well with his commentary? I dunno.
- Honestly wasn't feeling the other Zenith commentators much and found myself disagreeing with their statements and conclusions a fair amount of the time.
 

asianaussie

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,337
Location
Sayonara Memories
the typical person (stream monster, if you will) regards anything that doesn't involve hype hitconfirms, low tiers beating high tiers or clutch, dangerous approaches as ****-boring

why was brawl so hype at apex? why is m2k's mewtwo so hype? why is marlinpie so hype?

you won't replicate that sort of hype by encouraging pika dittos, no matter how fascinating they are to the informed player
 

Han Solo

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 9, 2011
Messages
1,277
Location
Midwest Corellia
i haven't really gotten ignorant on commentary and i want to...maybe at the next summer tourney. also, can't wait for knitephox's videos to go up. i think me and boom did live commentary for our own match. it wasn't fun to get 4 stocked but it was hilarious playing like that.

also: whose recording setup was on the first set of tables when you walked in, to the left? it was in between two other televisions...going to a silver mac laptop...
Not a mac, but it's my setup. I'll probably upload everything I have this weekend. I'm kind of busy for the next couple days.
 

Cobrevolution

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
3,178
Location
nj
i don't believe i played anything on that setup, i was merely curious. all my other recorded matches are on knite's. but cool, i look forward to seeing the matches i missed!
 

Nintendude

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
5,024
Location
San Francisco
nintendude doesn't like mario v pika which is why he didn't go mario
At BHB I was stubborn and stayed Mario vs Pikachus that were beating me so I wanted to try something different this time. In the future I think I'd just rather master Falcon for the matchup though.
 
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