This game NEEDS more hype.

[Tom Bombadil]

I like Battlecow's and Nintendude's for this past Apex.

Knowing the community/matchup/culture/history/scene is good and stuff for commentary. A hype + an informant usually works too.

I completely agree. I thought Battlecow added great hype to the matches while also providing some opinions and information (small things about matchups, stages, reasons behind players' decisions, etc.). Nintendude was perfect because as Mario main he was able to provide detailed character specific information about the person I would guess the majority of people were closely following: Isai. I remember him talking specifically about weak uairs, SH dair uair shield breaks, and reverse ledge DI. All things a new player wouldn't know about.

I felt like their commentary would allow a newer player to better appreciate and understand the matches than if there was simply in game sound. I'm not saying that BCow and Nintendude should be the only commentators, but I certainly think they did an excellent job. Maybe we should get someone who mains whichever character Isai is playing to commentate his matches along with a hype commentator this Apex.

For once, I feel qualified to post about my opinion as I am a newer player.

 

[MrMarbles]

I completely agree. I thought Battlecow added great hype to the matches while also providing some opinions and information (small things about matchups, stages, reasons behind players' decisions, etc.). Nintendude was perfect because as Mario main he was able to provide detailed character specific information about the person I would guess the majority of people were closely following: Isai. I remember him talking specifically about weak uairs, SH dair uair shield breaks, and reverse ledge DI. All things a new player wouldn't know about.

I felt like their commentary would allow a newer player to better appreciate and understand the matches than if there was simply in game sound. I'm not saying that BCow and Nintendude should be the only commentators, but I certainly think they did an excellent job. Maybe we should get someone who mains whichever character Isai is playing to commentate his matches along with a hype commentator this Apex.

For once, I feel qualified to post about my opinion as I am a newer player.

agreed i really enjoyed the commentary and it helped me pick up on alot of things that would have otherwise gone over my head

 

[Battlecow]

Most of the hate on Battlecow was him freaking out at and hyping up everything Isai did. Sometimes it was awesome: "This is Isai's last stand!", but other times it was kind of annoying.

someone's SALTY that they didn't get picked

no but for real there are only like 2 random dudes on youtube saying that and the isai bias isn't like an integral part of my commentary style. I was rooting for him and that is something that should be fixed tho.

4x a day random people stop into my kaillera rooms to tell me how much they liked my commentary. Only thing better than that is the one time when a dude from my sosc class came up to me and was like "Oh my god you're battlecow." Ego triiiiiiiiip

Commentary is definitely important, it's not what got me into 64 but it makes watching other fighting games super fun when I don't know what's going on. I don't think any commentary could perform the miracles clubba seems to expect, though.

 

[Han Solo]

Whoa whoa whoa.

I dropped out of the commentary run...after seeing your commentary audition and how good it was.

 

[Nintendude]

Thanks for the compliments guys. Personally though I don't view myself as a good commentator. I'm just good at talking about general things and I think of them as they come up in the match. I'm really not that good at analyzing the match right on the spot.

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't expect miracles really, but I do think the community will grow very, very slowly if at all if it is only through word of mouth. Making videos more likely to be watched by a broader audience sure can't hurt though.

Lol at someone realizing "you're battlecow!" hahahahhaa

 

[MrMarbles]

Thanks for the compliments guys. Personally though I don't view myself as a good commentator. I'm just good at talking about general things and I think of them as they come up in the match. I'm really not that good at analyzing the match right on the spot.

thats what made you and bcow a good team tho. He did the play by play analysis while you provided more in depth info that most people wouldnt know about

 

[SheerMadness]

Haven't been impressed with any 64 commentating. No offense to anyone.

Guess I'm just picky.

 

[yaowa]

I like the commentaries for the most part. Why doesn't anyone stream and commentate? They would rack up on viewers however positive or negative the feedback. Lol

 

[Cobrevolution]

battlecow let's tear at least one match up on cocommentary one day

 

[clubbadubba]

I like the commentaries for the most part. Why doesn't anyone stream and commentate? They would rack up on viewers however positive or negative the feedback. Lol

Once I get my own place I plan on doing a lot of this type of stuff. seems fun to me and I think you're right it would be nice to have regular streams.

 

[Battlecow]

Thanks for the compliments guys. Personally though I don't view myself as a good commentator. I'm just good at talking about general things and I think of them as they come up in the match. I'm really not that good at analyzing the match right on the spot.

I thought you were mad good at apex, you talked yourself down beforehand and I was pleasantly surprised

battlecow let's tear at least one match up on cocommentary one day

Dude absolutely

Also need to do some RECORDED commentary with ballin and tank, they were both pretty great

 

[SheerMadness]

A nightly stream would be cool. Problem is that it's hard to draw anyone outside of regular competitive players. So it usually doesn't do much in helping us expand.

Does anyone have or is friends with anyone who has a high following on twitch or something? Some way we can get exposure to people outside the scene.

Trihex was playing ssb64 on his stream pretty regularly there for a while. If only there was some way we could borrow his stream lol. I doubt he'd ever let that happen though.

 

[Yobolight]

Who is gonna commentate Zenith since BC won't be there?

 

[clubbadubba]

I'll jump on the mic for a bit

 

[Cobrevolution]

i'm definitely doing some commentary

 

[Han Solo]

I am Spartacus.

 

[TANK64]

I started watching brawl because of good commentating. Now I play and enter brawl tournaments regularly. If good commentators helped me get into brawl it can help people get into SSB64.

Also good commentating makes matches more rewatchable.

Would the wombo combo video be as hype if the commentators were muted?

Thissss. I can watch the same set so many times if it has good commentary.

Also, yes... I know a friend who might have watched a set of brawl recently because of the commentary... *runs*

And yea, I watch Marvel and stuff that I don't really keep up with because the commentary is fun. And known top player rivalries are fun and create hype and STUFF.

So yea, this game deserves commentary.

 

[B Link]

Dude TANK for commentator next Apex (no offense to Nintendude, but he admitted he's not that great anyway lol)

 

[banze]

what we need for next apex, Is MORE stream matches !! not only the finals!
That way we can have others commentators during the tourny.

And yes, on our experience, commentary is a good boost for hyping people. Our commentate matches were the ones with more viewers ever. even the boring matches! Our commentator is funny guy as well. That helps

 

[Cobrevolution]

if i remember correctly, the problem with streaming at this apex was something about a company signed a contract and no other streams were allowed and they only found out day of. if i had a recording setup i would have told them to go **** themselves, or smiled and agreed and streamed anyway clandestinely.

 

[breakthrough]

you should locate other players on the map (https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=207052029912080345759.0004d83725abc4a6e1e21&msa=0) and see who's near you. if you can start playing with 2-3 others, i'm sure those in your vicinity would be willing to play at some point.

Woah didn't know this existed. It's unforunate the closest person to me is still an hour away. How would I be able to add myself to the list? West Chester, PA here.

 

[KlausKinski]

IMO Nintendude def made the top matches at Apex 2013 what they were. I learned ****, he was neutral as could be, and it made it more exciting. It explained **** I didn't get (like Isai trying and failing the reverse DI to grab the ledge).

I think it's TOTALLY ok to be as hyped as Battlecow was, BUT not for one side. I mean, going nuts when Isai does something cool and just groaning when Kikoshi does some badass stuff is not good commentary.

I second the opinions that say watch some melee with commentary. The commentary and the crowd hype makes it fun to watch even though Melee sucks

In summary, let's make smash 64 commentary look more like melee commentary. Jokes help, sarcasm is good, banter is totally ok. Get the crowd into it. If anybody has links to vids with killer commentary, post that ****!

 

[asianaussie]

i agree, the best marvel/fightans commentators are very often top players, designers or people with incredible knowledge of the game

two hype commentators sometimes makes for asinine and unfunny commentary, you have to strike a balance to really appeal

that's why i think nintendude was fine, he was being hard on himself

 

[rustyw]

People like commentating and streams because we are social beings and we crave social interaction. Watching these streams with commentary validates the Smash experience for each of us by placing it in a social context. This improves the overall experience because makes us feel like we are active participants in a community by offering us experiences that are separate and separately fulfilling from the experiences we get from solely playing the game. This, I think, is due to two central facts:

1. Commentary and community involvement makes us want to watch the game more (makes us more invested in the game), because we want to belong with the "in-group" that has decided that what we are watching is cool.
2. It validates the experiences we have when we play these games by ourselves. Doubtless everyone who is interested in this game has some personal investment in it. When you have a social group that rallies around that same attachment to the game, it affirms our personal investment in the game. Moreover, this validation becomes aspirational: it encourages us to invest in the game even further.

I don't know about y'all, but I know a good number of people who will put on a stream when they're cleaning around the house or hanging out playing Smash with their buddies. It is fundamentally a less lonely gaming experience this way: it feels like someone else is there with us. When more people become invested in the social dimension of the game, the community grows, and this signaling of the desirability of the game grows stronger too (a feedback loop).

To successfully add the enticing social element to Smash you need a central cast of "leaders" whose job it is to create and maintain this social experience. The best examples of these leaders do two things:

1. They are charismatic enough to present an "authoritative" view of the game's coolness. Good commentators are likable: would you rather have a beer with someone like M2K or with someone like Prog?
2. They are able to talk about the game in a way that is attractive and fulfilling to the largest number of people:
   • by generating "hype", to attract people who crave the emotional experience of watching competitive high-level gaming;
   • by being able to explain the finer aspects of the game to viewers in a way that is edifying to new players and nuanced and thought-provoking to experienced players;
   • by placing the viewing experience in a greater context that encourages further participation in the community

I think that if you want to grow the community you need to work to make it enticing. The Smash 64 cartridge has done all it can to look like fun. Adding a strong social element--which virtually every other popular game community has already done--is what's next. This requires hard work and commitment, but it is singularly rewarding.

 

[Battlecow]

The need for good commentary is obviated by company

watching smash matches with other 64 players and talking is like watching football with your friends in that you just yell over the commentary anyways and its hella fun

that said most people watch smash alone so we still need commentators

 

[Nintendude]

So, the top-6 of Zenith was described by others as anti-hype and extremely painful to watch because of the excessive amount of long campy Pikachu dittos. The streamer pointed out that GFs took longer than an entire 6v6 crew battle which took place on Sunday evening. Thoughts?

 

[SheerMadness]

Agreed. All the northeast tourneys end up as Pikachu dittos it seems. At least the top 3-5 anyway.

Re-watching the archived final day zenith broadcast I found myself skipping through most of the pika/kirby matches just to see the end result of the match. I just don't find pika dittos or pika vs kirby entertaining at all.

This seems especially pronounced in the north east where most of the top players fall back on pikachu when faced with a tough opponent. There's no profound solution though. They're the best characters and most people play to win in tourneys. For example, Boom very likely could have won that tourney with one of his mid/low tiers. But I guess he wanted to play it safe. Smart move by him but less entertaining for the viewers.

If you wanna play to win you can't worry about pleasing the audience. For those of you who are concerned with pleasing the audience learn to how to beat high tiers with someone other than pika or kirby lol.

 

[Nintendude]

Well, the one obvious "solution" here is banning Hyrule, since Hyrule is what made the matches so long. Making something more pleasing for viewers isn't a valid reason to ban Hyrule, but for the sake of our competitive game it might be a good decision.

 

[Karajan]

So, the top-6 of Zenith was described by others as anti-hype and extremely painful to watch because of the excessive amount of long campy Pikachu dittos. The streamer pointed out that GFs took longer than an entire 6v6 crew battle which took place on Sunday evening. Thoughts?

Why didn't we see a Mario Link matchup?

Solution: Make the payouts only for 1st or just 1st and 2nd place.

 

[Nintendude]

A$ said he didn't want to go Link because he thought my Mario would beat him in that case. I don't think adjusting payouts is a solution since I don't think we play for the money (and there isn't much money to begin with). People care more about pride in their placement and who they managed to beat.

 

[Karajan]

How about in a best of 5, the first match should be a random character ditto

 

[Yobolight]

Pikachu dittos are inherently going to be anti-hype because Up-B is just too good for breaking out of combos/gimps. This means that the matches typically take the form of protracted spacing battles which can be fun for the player, but the viewer will most likely tune out. Kirby dittos and Kirby/Pikachu are a little bit better to watch, but still pretty bad.

If you care about having the metagame not dominated by a single character, I think banning Pikachu and Kirby should be seriously considered. Banning Pikachu without banning Kirby just pushes the problem back to the next totally unbalanced character, which is why either both or neither characters should be banned.

Pikachu occupies a place similar to Metaknight in Brawl in that he is by far and away the best character in the game. His match-up spread across the board is in fact the most dominant of any character in any smash game.

The tournament scene in the United States has recently become competitive in the North East, which has served to exacerbate a "play to win" play-style which essentially amounts to play Pikachu or you will lose. At Zenith for example all of members of the top 6 played Pikachu a good deal of the time.

Isai choosing to not play with high tiers in tournament has been a huge blessing to this game's popularity these past years, but without him at the event it has become pretty obvious that the conception of Smash 64 as a balanced game is a myth.

 

[Nintendude]

I still believe that at the tippy top level Pikachu is not a dominant force and every character is viable. However, unlike the other Smash games, we have so few players at that level.

 

[SheerMadness]

Well, the one obvious "solution" here is banning Hyrule, since Hyrule is what made the matches so long.

Obviously campy matches on hyrule are generally longer and less exciting, but it's not like it's fun to watch defensive Pika dittos on dreamland either. Plus we've already been over the hyrule ban thing and a vast majority of the community is against it.

Fortunately the larger the tourney the more diverse it usually is. Like Apex where Mario, Jiggly, Ness, and Yoshi mains all top 10'ed. Ruoka also played a decent amount of Luigi.

 

[Yobolight]

Zenith also increased my appreciation of Battlecow commentary.

Joe/Solo commentary: "Nice Up-air"

BC Commentary: On-screen nerdgasm

 

[TANK64]

Dude TANK for commentator next Apex

<33333

So, the top-6 of Zenith was described by others as anti-hype and extremely painful to watch because of the excessive amount of long campy Pikachu dittos. The streamer pointed out that GFs took longer than an entire 6v6 crew battle which took place on Sunday evening. Thoughts?

I definitly thougtht it made us look horible. I mean, I literally stopped watching the stream and became interested with all the campy Pika Dittos. And Hyrule def lends itself to that style.

That's a horrible sign if I stopped watching Zenith live, and I'm already a member of the community... that is obsessed with this game. For people who are just wanting to start (or interested and checking it out), it's unfortunatly not a good look :/ .

Also sad to see all our top players falling back on Pika too. Northeast is our most active/competetive scene; I just hope this is not a preview to the "future of the metagame." Seems more like we just giving up on beating Pika instead of advancing :/ . But I think Pika would be more dominant on a DL only ruleset...

Did we just switch sides (for all the wrong reasons lol).

Also by tipy-top you mean Isai/Kikoshi/Gerson/Boom right? (I'm not trying to sound like a smart ass lol).

-Also I agree international bring more matchups to the table.

-Also shoutouts to Wizzy and Han for sticking to their guns.

-And yea, I think the money doesn't affect peeps. The pride/placement is a far more powerful motivator.

 

[Nintendude]

Even I stopped watching the top-6 after I got knocked out and I saw Sensei beating A$. And yeah by tippy top that's what I'm referring to. After that tier of players there is a considerable drop-off in skill.

 

[Sedda]

I think it's kinda unfair to compare it to Melee and thinking that the sets were bad because they took so long. If you are going to compare with melee, look at the Armada vs Hbox sets.
Maybe it just so happens that people ended up playing Pikachu THIS TIME and they really wanted to win for various reasons, so it just ended up being lengthy. I really enjoyed the 64 streams. It was cool seeing everyone play and have fun.

If you guys are really worried about this, just make a personal promise not to play Pikachu and try your hardest with whoever you normally use, or have a low tier tournament whenever you have to stream alongside Melee.
Once again though, I enjoyed it. Moar Link next time plz

 

[clubbadubba]

So, the top-6 of Zenith was described by others as anti-hype and extremely painful to watch because of the excessive amount of long campy Pikachu dittos. The streamer pointed out that GFs took longer than an entire 6v6 crew battle which took place on Sunday evening. Thoughts?

The best thing I can think of is go 4 stocks instead of 5. Banning pikachu is over reacting, and I'm not sure banning hyrule solves the problem. Someone should check the length of the matches on hyrule vs dreamland. For pika dittos I'm not sure its a huge difference in match length. Remember when star king did the math for genesis 2 there was very little difference.

Better solution, tournament needs moar falcon. I'm guilty of this because I robbed myself, kero, and anyone who enjoyed the falcon-pika matches between us by ******** out and going pika in the last game of our second set. Don't know what I was thinking. Falcon has a really good matchup vs pikachu, people need to use him more as a counter for pika imo.