This forums seems to like trying to fit Square Pegs into Round Holes.

[Taleran]

I've noticed this since the tournament stuff went crazy with the last one (Melee), now I know this post won't change anyone crazily into playing 'pro' but theres always hope.


The fundamental flaw I see is that you try to fit smash into the mold used by other fighting game tournaments when Smash is nothing like those games. It'd be much easier and much more constructive and productive for all the fans of the games to instead create a new way of playing tournaments that more focused on all the features of smash.


Your tired of people doing small dmg then running around the map till the time runs out, well then play stock, hell you could even play stock and keep time and the person with the more lives at the end wins and if same number of lives then it'd be whose at lower %

see simple easy workable efficient.


The bigger concern I see is the removal of stages that are random, unpredictable or unfair, well to the stages that are random, they are random to everyone not just 1 person so its random to all that means its completely fair, unpredictable is the same as random, as for the unfair ones, well only cowards would use tactics such as those

and banning stages because certain characters is equally laughable, when you select your character you take into account all their pros and cons, some are faster, some take more dmg etc etc, so their survivability should be part of this.



Maybe I am just crazy but as I see it any game where you need to ban a large portion of the content just to make it able to fit into a specific mode of tournament means that you should either

1. Give Up
or
2. Devise a new way to tournament.




It wouldn't be that hard to come up with something that uses item(fits into the unpredictable bit I mentioned earlier), and all the stages along with all the character.

 

[Fatmanonice]

*starts banging his head on a wall*

Making threads like this is the equivalent of opening Pandora's Box... Threads concerning the debate about what competitive gaming does to gamers never end well.

 

[Taleran]

*starts banging his head on a wall*

Making threads like this is the equivalent of opening Pandora's Box... Threads concerning the debate about what competitive gaming does to gamers never end well.

did you not read my post I said nothing of the sort


I was merely stating it be easier to create another way to run tournaments over taking out most of the stuff that gets left out when people play smash in tournaments

 

[The BSC]

I say let the tourney guys play competitively and let the other people play how they want.

I mean, I play with items and broken characters. So what if some guy wants to put rules up for fair play? That's their game, their prerogative.

 

[Fatmanonice]

did you not read my post I said nothing of the sort


I was merely stating it be easier to create another way to run tournaments over taking out most of the stuff that gets left out when people play smash in tournaments

That's the thing though, you're not supposed to question the fact that most tournaments only use flat stages, don't use items, blah, blah, blah. Just let those people do what they want regardless if they don't feel like changing their old ways.

 

[Taleran]

you're not supposed to question the fact that most tournaments only use flat stages, don't use items, blah, blah, blah.

not question? what fascist country do you live we must ALWAYS QUESTION!

 

[Firestorm88]

I think you need to take a closer look at the rules in Melee.

Stock with Time is already the standard.
Only 12 out of the 38 stages are banned.
The reason some are banned is because it's close to impossible to beat that character on the stage.
The stages that some characters have a very noticeable advantage are called counter-pick stages and are not banned. Please read the standard rules here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=137382

 

[Firestorm88]

That's the thing though, you're not supposed to question the fact that most tournaments only use flat stages, don't use items, blah, blah, blah. Just let those people do what they want regardless if they don't feel like changing their old ways.

Then you should agree with the current rules as they're mostly the same as explained in the first post.

12 stages are banned. Items are off. Those are the only differences in rulesets. Hell, people ban stages in casual play anyway. Who actually likes Flat Zone or Icicle Mountain? >_>

 

[ph00tbag]

Your tired of people doing small dmg then running around the map till the time runs out, well then play stock, hell you could even play stock and keep time and the person with the more lives at the end wins and if same number of lives then it'd be whose at lower %

see simple easy workable efficient.

And this isn't what people do... how?

The bigger concern I see is the removal of stages that are random, unpredictable or unfair, well to the stages that are random, they are random to everyone not just 1 person so its random to all that means its completely fair, unpredictable is the same as random, as for the unfair ones, well only cowards would use tactics such as those

and banning stages because certain characters is equally laughable, when you select your character you take into account all their pros and cons, some are faster, some take more dmg etc etc, so their survivability should be part of this.

It's not that some random even is unexpected. It's because the randomness can randomly reward with a good position despite poor play, or punish someone who is playing well. Thus, it does not reflect the skill level of the players involved, but rather dampens the effect of skill.

And people ban stages because of characters because if they didn't the game would have devolved to no items, Fox only, Hyrule Temple only, and the game would just be a laser spamfest.

The deal is that if you want Smash to be competitive at all, you need to remove a great deal of the random content from consideration, because otherwise it ceases to be competitive. And no. We won't just give up, because competitive smash is still fun for us.

 

[Five]

not question? what fascist country do you live we must ALWAYS QUESTION!

I doubt this site is a democracy

I think the simple existence of Wi-Fi battles is enough to expand tournament play massively. I don't think anyone will have trouble finding a tournament that suits their playing style.

 

[Taleran]

that doesn't make any sense even by the definition of the word 'random'

oh and the other thing I've never heard is a logical reason for the removal of items, anywhere? Anyone?


yeah the Wifi really does open this up to a lot more variety good thing too

 

[shadydentist]

The spirit of competitive play is to allow as many things as possible, so long as the gameplay remains fair. Let me quote something I wrote like two days ago in the tournament forum:

Some items are simply too overpowered, such as heart containers, so those would be banned. Exploding crates and pills further complicate the matter, as an unlucky drop during an attack could kill you, so thats the rationale behind the banning of all items. In the past, there were many tournaments with items on, but those have slowly been phased out due to the above issues.

As a general rule, the stages that have been banned are the ones in which camping is an overpowering strategy. In hyrule, for instance, due to the triangular paths in the stage, a faster character can run away forever. Stages with a large divide in the middle (peach's castle, fourside, venom) also heavily favor a defensive player, and were banned.

The problem with items is that even when just leaving the fair items in, there were random boxes and pills that explode.

Again, the idea is to only ban things that become detrimental to gameplay.

 

[drengist]

You haven't ever taken part to a tournament, have you?

 

[Taleran]

but all the items are fair because they are random and everyone has a chance to get them.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Your tired of people doing small dmg then running around the map till the time runs out, well then play stock, hell you could even play stock and keep time and the person with the more lives at the end wins and if same number of lives then it'd be whose at lower %

We already do play stock with a time limit. This shows that you don't know the current competative rules

The bigger concern I see is the removal of stages that are random, unpredictable or unfair, well to the stages that are random, they are random to everyone not just 1 person so its random to all that means its completely fair.

Random aspects take away from the player's skill. That's because there is no way of preparring for them, and yet they can have major effects on the match. Any random elements should be removed, if at all possible, in a competative game.

unpredictable is the same as random, as for the unfair ones, well only cowards would use tactics such as those

But cowards are not banned from tournaments. And a lot of people would rather be a "coward" that just won $100,000 than a nobleman.

and banning stages because certain characters is equally laughable, when you select your character you take into account all their pros and cons, some are faster, some take more dmg etc etc, so their survivability should be part of this.

So it's completely fair if someone counter picks Hyrule Temple with Fox, shoots a lazer at you, and then runs away for 8 minutes. The only feasable way to counter this is to pick Fox. "But you can just ban Fox." Well, then they pick Shiek, shoot a needle, and do the same thing. Ultimately, the only solution that you ban the stage itself. I repeat, all stages have been tested before being banned.

Maybe I am just crazy but as I see it any game where you need to ban a large portion of the content just to make it able to fit into a specific mode of tournament means that you should either

1. Give Up
or
2. Devise a new way to tournament.

You're just crazy. We've determined that this is the best way to hold competative tournaments. If you don't like it, then all you have to do is convince the majority of competative players otherwise.

It wouldn't be that hard to come up with something that uses item(fits into the unpredictable bit I mentioned earlier), and all the stages along with all the character.

We already tried. It didn't work. Every now and then someone would get killed by an exploding capsule, lose the match, and thus lose a large amount of money with no real reason.

Before complaining about how we run things, you should realize that we've already tried exactly what you're suggesting, and it didn't work.

So I feel that it's right to say

STFU

 

[shadydentist]

but all the items are fair because they are random and everyone has a chance to get them.

Wrong, fair != random. Its completely random when a heart piece spawns next to you, but is it fair? No. You did nothing to earn that heart piece, and it leaves your opponent at a significant disadvantage.

 

[Legendaryhero]

ok im sorry that you don't understand quite how we do things here... there are a few stickied posts in almost all the sections. please read those before posting... also most people aren't going to take ur first post seriously please read and understand whats going on here before u make a thread that is going to get flamed like hell...

 

[Fatmanonice]

Then you should agree with the current rules as they're mostly the same as explained in the first post.

12 stages are banned. Items are off. Those are the only differences in rulesets. Hell, people ban stages in casual play anyway. Who actually likes Flat Zone or Icicle Mountain? >_>

I don't play in tournaments so I really don't care either way. It's just that threads like this usually turn into enormous debates where everyone gets pissed off and a gap gets made between those that go to tournaments and those that don't.

 

[TheDuplexDuo]

OBJECTION!

Pegs ARE NOT round!



and yes, that is indeed a very large picture of many clothes pegs, blame google for it's size.​

 

[dj_pwn1423]

excuse me but why do you care if you dont even go to tournaments?
all stock matches are timed 5-8min already

and also. why should the community play with Items and "unfair" stages when there is money on the line? fame in bigger ones to. or a better question would be: why should they use items if they simply dont like them?

there used to be items in tournaments you know? but it wasnt as pleasant as it is now(well thats just my opinion)

its not like Im not open for it though, but you sould know these rules are accepted because the mayority of the people that actually go to tournaments think thats the best way to go.

 

[Taleran]

I don't play in tournaments so I really don't care either way. It's just that threads like this usually turn into enormous debates where everyone gets pissed off and a gap gets made between those that go to tournaments and those that don't.

yeah I now see what you mean geez, very burn the witch attitude here



neway,
I have played a tournament, me and like 10 friends got a little tipsy all threw in 20 bucks turned items onto medium stock 5 and did 1 round tournament till someone won on random stages it was great.


I heard some things about this board and had some ideas, oh well thanks those that gave informative replies (and the guy with the close pegs) twas good, but I guess this place is just too set in stonce

 

[motsalogeL]

Have you ever actually been to a tournament? Sounds like you haven't.

 

[bluethree]

I don't play in tournaments so I really don't care either way. It's just that threads like this usually turn into enormous debates where everyone gets pissed off and a gap gets made between those that go to tournaments and those that don't.

So why do people who don't go to tournaments try to tell people how tournaments should be run? The only logical reason I can think of is to start a flame war.

 

[Foxy]

WHY ITEMS/STAGES ARE BANNED

A
random player gets a
random advantage at a
random time.

 

[Proven]

Then you should agree with the current rules as they're mostly the same as explained in the first post.

12 stages are banned. Items are off. Those are the only differences in rulesets. Hell, people ban stages in casual play anyway. Who actually likes Flat Zone or Icicle Mountain? >_>

I like those stages! (it's all my friends who don't...)

not question? what fascist country do you live we must ALWAYS QUESTION!

Seriously now, even if you want to go on about what kind of country we live in, most of us live in the United States where it's legal for KKK meetings and parades, as long as nobody is being hurt or offended, at least purposefully.

If you want to do something, and it's not so ethically/morally wrong that we already have a law against it to put you in jail, you can do it. Just don't bother anybody else about what you feel or think about it, whether you want to do it to or find it completely disgusting.

These forums aren't even democracy, as they're owned and therefore can be treated with fascism, but even if it wasn't and democracy prevailed, you still would need to shut your *** up about what other people feel like doing.

I mean, how many other people will play Super Sudden Death with bomb-ombs on high on Icicle Mountain? Do you find that terrible or stupid? Well whatever you like to do there's more than likely someone who feels you're terrible or stupid as well. So, let's just understand this, and get another forum to avoid these problems.

I realize that all of this is happening and it's past 3 now. School's out for most, dammit.

 

[Master Cat]

Ugh, this is why I hate the Smash Brothers community. It's either full of pseudo-philosophical ******* who try to puff up themselves with their "neutrality" and pretending to care about other people's opinions to make themselves look good- and seriously, if you want to make the world a more caring, considerate place, get your *** off the internet and do something worthwhile for the world- or it's full of stuck up "professional" players who develop these advanced techniques for a platformer-based fighting game, but have apparently never learned how to dodge a friggin' crate or capsule, and/or can't hire judges to enforce restarts in case someone one in a "cheap" way. I heartily agree with what this guy is saying and wish something like this could be the norm. There's enough randomness in every aspect of Smash Bros, and that's part of the games appeal. Now, I'll agree that there are certain items and stages that are inherently cheap (namely healing items and possibly the dragoon, and infinite glacier and PokeFloats for stages), but there are ways to dodge each and every last item or avoid every last stage obstacle, and the ability to adapt to these situations should be the key thing that determines a winner, not banning things so that a whiny ***** of an anthropomorphic fox and a transvestite princess can't be exploited.

 

[Overswarm]

Ugh, this is why I hate the Smash Brothers community. It's either full of pseudo-philosophical ******* who try to puff up themselves with their "neutrality" and pretending to care about other people's opinions to make themselves look good- and seriously, if you want to make the world a more caring, considerate place, get your *** off the internet and do something worthwhile for the world- or it's full of stuck up "professional" players who develop these advanced techniques for a platformer-based fighting game, but have apparently never learned how to dodge a friggin' crate or capsule, and/or can't hire judges to enforce restarts in case someone one in a "cheap" way. I heartily agree with what this guy is saying and wish something like this could be the norm. There's enough randomness in every aspect of Smash Bros, and that's part of the games appeal. Now, I'll agree that there are certain items and stages that are inherently cheap (namely healing items and possibly the dragoon, and infinite glacier and PokeFloats for stages), but there are ways to dodge each and every last item or avoid every last stage obstacle, and the ability to adapt to these situations should be the key thing that determines a winner, not banning things so that a whiny ***** of an anthropomorphic fox and a transvestite princess can't be exploited.

Your avy's cute. Number? A/S/L?



Yeah, you might think it is spam but it is just as useful as yours. -_-;;

Don't come in and talk about opinion in a factual environment. Want to say it is more fun to play with items? No one can stop you. Want to say it is more competitive? We've got over a decade of evidence that says otherwise.

 

[darkhamsterlord]

You don't understand.

Imagine, the last round of a tournament, you've won with a star KO. You're going to win alot of money..

Bobomb falls on you, you die, they get the money, when they lost. It just took them too long to die.

This is why the random factor is removed. This sort of thing happens with stages too. (Example: Bomb Blocks in Green Greens)



They're not forcing you to play with tournament rules, so why give a ****?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Green Greens isn't banned.

I personally think it should, but it isn't.

As for the others, there's really just no way to enforce some bans. Let's take Camping on Hyrule for example.

Banned tactic-stalling for time

Perfectly legitamate tactic-forcing a move by playing defensive.

How do you seperate which is which? You could put a time limit on how long a person camps, but then they'll just camp exactly under that amount of time, and then they'll do it again later when the period for which that time is legitamate expires. There's just really no way to enforce it concretely, hence the banning of the stage.

There are a lot of situations like this, and we banned the stages as a last resort. This ban is final and like EPF said, is the result of over almost a decade of testing. Sorry to say

Fact>>>>>>>>>Opinion.

 

[Finesse]

The bigger concern I see is the removal of stages that are random, unpredictable or unfair, well to the stages that are random, they are random to everyone not just 1 person so its random to all that means its completely fair, unpredictable is the same as random, as for the unfair ones, well only cowards would use tactics such as those
[...]
Maybe I am just crazy but as I see it any game where you need to ban a large portion of the content just to make it able to fit into a specific mode of tournament means that you should either

1. Give Up
or
2. Devise a new way to tournament.

It wouldn't be that hard to come up with something that uses item(fits into the unpredictable bit I mentioned earlier), and all the stages along with all the character.

There's no absolute set of preferences when making rules for any given tournament. However, what is beyond specific rules themselves is the underlying paradigm that motivates the structure of any given tournament. Now, this isn't set in stone, but I think it's more than fair to say that MLG rules are constructed such that skill pays off. This clearly goes for most serious video game tournaments. The purpose of my post is just to address the aspect of randomness. I totally agree with you that random elements in Smash are random to everyone. However, the paradigm among the Smash community (or at least the competitive subset) is that luck should be minimized. In the event that we have items and levels that don't seem to have some predictable tempo, the edge a more skilled player has only becomes apparent over a longer period of time. So, the idea is to reward (in a given tournament) the person who is in all probability the most skilled. If random elements to the game are not minimized, we would have a distribution of rewards that would still have the most skilled player being fully compensated, only it would take a longer run of tournaments before this becomes realized. An example of this, of course, would be poker. There is luck contributing to the game, so you don't see professional players winning almost every single time. Point is, there's nothing wrong with aspects of Smash such as items, etc. It's just the current preference among most that the edge obtained from more overall skill (whether it be technical or meta-game) be made apparent over a relatively small number of tournaments, which is directly related to minimizing its variance. In addition, no one is forcing you to play by any given set of rules. You can always start up your own tournament with your own set. I can see how people may be disconcerted by the restrictive nature of what may be seen as "official" rules. But keep in mind that these are by no means "official" in any sense of the word. Only when you enter the tournament do you have to adhere by it, of course. As for levels that are banned due to an unfair advantage taken on by certain characters, this subject's been addressed enough that I'm sure you know what rebuttal to expect.

 

[Zek]

Look, the point of all the rules is that person who plays more skillfully should win. That's the whole purpose of a tournament no matter what game you're playing, it has nothing to do with copying other fighting games. The randomness of items or the extremely unfair advantages in certain stages directly impedes that. That's why they're banned.

 

[Aninymouse]

Ugh, this is why I hate the Smash Brothers community. It's either full of pseudo-philosophical ******* who try to puff up themselves with their "neutrality" and pretending to care about other people's opinions to make themselves look good- and seriously, if you want to make the world a more caring, considerate place, get your *** off the internet and do something worthwhile for the world- or it's full of stuck up "professional" players who develop these advanced techniques for a platformer-based fighting game, but have apparently never learned how to dodge a friggin' crate or capsule, and/or can't hire judges to enforce restarts in case someone one in a "cheap" way. I heartily agree with what this guy is saying and wish something like this could be the norm. There's enough randomness in every aspect of Smash Bros, and that's part of the games appeal. Now, I'll agree that there are certain items and stages that are inherently cheap (namely healing items and possibly the dragoon, and infinite glacier and PokeFloats for stages), but there are ways to dodge each and every last item or avoid every last stage obstacle, and the ability to adapt to these situations should be the key thing that determines a winner, not banning things so that a whiny ***** of an anthropomorphic fox and a transvestite princess can't be exploited.

Everyone has taken great care and patience to explain to you and others why we have the rules we do. On the whole, those defending our rules have kept from resorting to flames and have provided an explanation behind their logic. You, sir or madame, are flaming outright. Perhaps it is you who needs to gain some maturity through some extended absence from internet message boards?

It's been said countless times over, but when you are participating in a tournament with a sizable cash prize (at the very least), the standard rules are the fairest way to gear the metagame to one of SKILL rather than LUCK. The rules we have devised have been play-tested for many years and have been laboriously decided upon through numerous debates. As new information and new play mechanics arise, rules can and should change.


Brawl is a new game, and the Melee standard rule set does not automatically apply until it is proven to be the best course of action to assure a skill-based metagame IN RELATION TO PRIZE TOURNAMENTS AT THE VERY LEAST. You're allowed to play however you like outside that specific environment... in fact, you're encouraged to!

 

[Dark Sonic]

There's no absolute set of preferences when making rules for any given tournament. However, what is beyond specific rules themselves is the underlying paradigm that motivates the structure of any given tournament. Now, this isn't set in stone, but I think it's more than fair to say that MLG rules are constructed such that skill pays off. This clearly goes for most serious video game tournaments. The purpose of my post is just to address the aspect of randomness. I totally agree with you that random elements in Smash are random to everyone. However, the paradigm among the Smash community (or at least the competitive subset) is that luck should be minimized. In the event that we have items and levels that don't seem to have some predictable tempo, the edge a more skilled player has only becomes apparent over a longer period of time. So, the idea is to reward (in a given tournament) the person who is in all probability the most skilled. If random elements to the game are not minimized, we would have a distribution of rewards that would still have the most skilled player being fully compensated, only it would take a longer run of tournaments before this becomes realized. An example of this, of course, would be poker. There is luck contributing to the game, so you don't see professional players winning almost every single time. Point is, there's nothing wrong with aspects of Smash such as items, etc. It's just the current preference among most that the edge obtained from more overall skill (whether it be technical or meta-game) be made apparent over a relatively small number of tournaments, which is directly related to minimizing its variance. In addition, no one is forcing you to play by any given set of rules. You can always start up your own tournament with your own set. I can see how people may be disconcerted by the restrictive nature of what may be seen as "official" rules. But keep in mind that these are by no means "official" in any sense of the word. Only when you enter the tournament do you have to adhere by it, of course. As for levels that are banned due to an unfair advantage taken on by certain characters, this subject's been addressed enough that I'm sure you know what rebuttal to expect.

Yay for smart people joining our site. I'd gladly take 10 completely ignorant members that will probably be banned if it means we get one like you.