"Thinner character, bigger appeal!" Paper Mario for SSB4; Thread migration soon!

[Deleted member]

It's not that he has a lack of abilities, as he already has 3 games to work with to be unique.

It's that even though he has them available, it doesn't mean he can't be cloned/semi-cloned.

Take Ganondorf for example. He had plenty of abilities from OoT, and even more so come Brawl's time with WW and TP in his resume, but was still a semi-clone in Brawl.

 

[Ghirahilda]

It's that even though he has them available, it doesn't mean he can't be cloned/semi-cloned.

Take Ganondorf for example. He had plenty of abilities from OoT, and even more so come Brawl's time with WW and TP in his resume, but was still a semi-clone in Brawl.

Oh no! Don't remind me of the cloned Ganon! That's why I don't like him. He was the most nonsense clone, since him and Capt. Falco doens't have nothing in similiarities in their franchises. That proves that even different chacacters can be cloned. This is argument is really a good one! It can proves that various chacacters can be cloned, like Lucario/Zoroark, Ridley/Charizard, Samus/Dark Samus, Ike/Krom etc.

LOL!

But lets continue with our Paper Mario discussion, before someone comes here and say that this is not the right place to discuss this.

 

[Deleted member]

Err, not so much Lucario and Zoroark.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I posted this in the general Mario newcomer thread, but it fits better here:

"I made a Paper Mario moveset and more a while ago. I figure I might as well post it.

Notes: Many of these animations will only be understood if you’ve played the games. I’m not going to try to create an entire moveset for him, just the major animations, attacks, etc. I may expand it later on, but for now, that’s what it is. I may update my moveset after I’ve played Paper Mario 3D quite a bit, but not now.

[COLLAPSE="Specials"]B - Hammer: Nothing fancy. Just uses the hammer. It would function sort of like G&W’s Judgement attack, but with a 12% chance of sticking the opponent into the ground, like DK’s B>.

B> - Koops/Kooper: Jumps on a Koopa shell, sending it forward for a bit before it comes back. It acts like a regular other Koopa Shell in the series, otherwise. It would switch between Koops and Kooper. I don’t really like this one as much. I’m trying to think of a better one. I was thinking TTYD’s Tube Mode could work, but it’d be too much like Yoshi’s egg, Jigglypuff’s Rollout, Sonic’s Spin Dash, etc.

B^ - Plane Mode: Turns into a paper plane (TTYD’s Plane Mode) and flies around. It would act a lot like PK Thunder, except you ARE the object flying around. Obviously, after a short while, you’ll return to normal and become immobile until you land/die

Bv - Ground Pound: He does a ground pound, much like Yoshi and Bowser. Pretty self-explanatory. Of course, he’d do the Paper Mario ground pound animation.

Final Smash - Sweet Treat: Acts much like the Sweet Treat ability did. Instead of +1HP targets, there would be -5% and -10%. And instead of +1FP, the falling tiles will have pictures of the faces of all the fighters on the field (including yourself). Shooting a character’s tile essentially does the same to that fighter as if they were hit by one of the missiles from Snake’s FS. It would be neat if the character tiles had Paper Mario styled pictures of their faces. When using Sweet Treat, Paper Mario would stay on the field, but all players would freeze. Paper Mario would have his arms raised, and the screen would darken a bit, just like in the games. After being hit, the players would obviously go flying and eventually fall, but their controllers would still do nothing.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Animations"]Swimming: Goes into TTYD’s Boat Mode. When he’s drowning, the boat could get darker and soggy.

Rolling Dodge: Same animation as if you press Z to dash in the Paper Mario games
Stationary Dodge: TTYD’s Paper Mode

Shield: Could either be a regular SSB shield, with a certain animation, looking sort of like this (http://tinyurl.com/3vop9g9), but with an arm raised to make it look a bit more defensive. It could also be Paper Mario using Barry, from SPM, or it could just be a regular shield with his action command block animation.

Taunt 1: Wags his finger and nods his head, like after he’s won a Battle in Paper Mario 1&2

Taunt 2: Does a Tornado Jump

Taunt 3: Twink flies out from behind him (much like Link’s fairy in Brawl) and winks at Paper Mario, who nods happily just before Twink goes back to Paper Mario’s pocket, or where the hell they go.[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Miscellaneous"]Sounds effects for various moves would have a 50% chance of their regular sound, while the remaining 50% would be split up between the various SFX Badges’ sounds.

Victory Theme: An orchestrated, probably slightly longer version of the victory theme from the original Paper Mario.

Snake Codec: Snake tried to call Otacon, only to find that his channel has been hacked by Paper Mario, who’s in the midst of a conversation with Goombario/Goombella/Tippi (Chosen at random). It wouldn’t be voiced, but rather PM-styled text on the screen to read. They use their Tattle ability (each character saying something different about Snake for their different personalities), while Paper Mario makes his classic “mhm” sounds and nods. All the while, Snake’s trying to interrupt, saying things like, “Hey! What are you guys doing? What’s going on here?” But the two don’t seem to notice him.

Icon: http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4411/mario0.png. The real one would obviously look much better, this is pretty rough.[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Music for the Glitz Pit stage"]1) TTYD Main Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BiJafjeZ7E
2) Toad Town: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebWmhBaFdPY
3) Flipside: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xFPpemupBY
4) Koopa Bros. Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNZq_0kvtxk
5) Rawk Hawk Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvoaVFLwOgs
6) Francis' Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC029718CcQ
7) Lineland Road: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0Xs2VkuiIg

8) Rogueport Medley:
- Rogueport: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npBr340yjNU
- Rogueport Sewers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaJ1WdrBvRwa

9) Glitzville Medley. In no particular order:
- Glitzville: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUHl_ctUSjI
- Chubba's Theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N69kQt2RPzQ
- Glitz Pit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fjFAtQ9JpE
- Mystery of the Glitz Pit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H95vyr-0-Fw

10) Battle Medley. In no particular order:
- Regular (PM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh5Lh2gTwpg
- Jr. Troopa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWi67T9mNXM
- Miniboss (PM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oESlnJtSfP0
- Regular (TTYD): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwA1lMIAmsY
- Miniboss (TTYD): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmekqwH6cc0
- Magnus Von Grapple: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItOY9_p5GY

11) Character Theme Medley. In no particular order:
- Professor Frankly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxIVDen7A6I
- Ms. Mowz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iIfHAIj2RQ
- Punies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRCljq4xCjE
- Shadow Sirens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVXGQYiBoio
- TEC / Peach: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYLFe9bX6So
- Bowser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ApeT7K-Eg
- Mr. L: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ryLkTFuRrU
- Count Bleck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3r7AC2Pf3c[/COLLAPSE]

What do you think?"

That is the best Paper Mario moveset ever! It could use some Sticker Star references, though the game isn't out yet. Props to you, good sir.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Toon Link had really short legs compared to Link and was still a clone, but only didn't copy kicking attacks. So you can't rule out Paper Mario being a clone solely because of his lack of legs.

Not saying he will be one, but you can't say he can't.

This is true. I believe a better argument would be that Paper Mario games are totally different than Super Mario games. In this case, if Paper Mario is made into a Mario clone, that would be incredibly outrageous. They have plenty of stuff to work with for a moveset just by borrowing things from the Paper Mario games.

And btw, that realistic Paper Mario is freaking awesome. i love it

 

[Robotic Wind]

I just wanna say I wanted Paper Mario in Brawl and Paper Mario is my second most wanted fighter in Brawl. Second only to balloon fighter. I'll post my one moveset once I get it together. Mine will come from the first 2 games...

PAPER MARIO FOR SSB4!!!

 

[Ember Reaper]

R.O.B. that moveset is amazing! That's so good!

 

[pokémoneinstein]

That is the best Paper Mario moveset ever! It could use some Sticker Star references, though the game isn't out yet. Props to you, good sir.

Thanks! I was thinking that the Bv move (Koops/Kooper) could be a sticker, instead. I'm not fond of the idea of having partners assist him, anyway. I made that moveset when we knew next to nothing about the new Paper Mario, but now that we know all about the stickers etc, it works as a good replacement.

I'm also really hoping that if he's included, TTYD is the game that gets most of the credit. Sticker Star looks pretty lackluster in comparison to the first two games, so far. I think TTYD is the most memorable by far. Of course, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Vyzor]

Paper Mario would be a very nice character addition. After playing all the PM games I can see that he would have a completely original moveset as well.

But honestly, I would rather him not be put in. Having the same character twice is almost a waste of a character space and lazy. Dr. Mario was silly and so was Young Link. Toon Link made more sense but still felt like a cop-out. I think they could pick a better character to be a representation of the Paper Mario series. Possibly one from the new Paper Mario coming out.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Paper Mario would be a very nice character addition. After playing all the PM games I can see that he would have a completely original moveset as well.

But honestly, I would rather him not be put in. Having the same character twice is almost a waste of a character space and lazy. Dr. Mario was silly and so was Young Link. Toon Link made more sense but still felt like a cop-out. I think they could pick a better character to be a representation of the Paper Mario series. Possibly one from the new Paper Mario coming out.

The difference is though that Paper Mario is completely different from regular Mario in ways that Toon Link isnt different from Regular Link. His moves would be completely different, and honestly he could rep his own series. And its better then including Waluigi, a character that would represent the spin off games that all four of the other characters represent already

 

[Vyzor]

Yea, ya know what, I'd like him in. I can't really think of any other paper mario rep that would work. I would be even more fine if PM was in if they excluded Toon Link.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Paper Mario has been a character i have supported since Brawl.

So i say yes to the epic paper plumber.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

same here. also considering he is about to be more relevant than Bowser Jr. and Toad shortly. The only appearances i've seen Toad in are the Toad houses or spin offs, which would basically put him in the same boat as Daisy and Waluigi. Bowser Jr and Paper Mario are in my opinion the front runners. Obviously fan support has to be there, but they also have to be quite relevant.

and honestly, its already almost Mario Party along with every other Nintendo character as it is. Adding Daisy or Waluigi would drive me nuts. As much as i love Mario games

 

[Deleted member]

>Bowser Jr. appears in the new Paper Mario.
>Paper Mario is somehow more "relevant".

/logic.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Paper Mario is the star of the game, and with it being his 4th, he will likely get more spotlight from it. Even if Bowser Jr is in the game, he is usually in other games as a villain as well, however he hasnt been there as of late.

Paper Mario is also a title that is released less often than other Mario titles that Bowser Jr appears in, which makes the game more notable for Paper Mario as a character. Does it help Bowser Jr? Sure, but it helps Paper Mario more because its HIS game. And we don't even know how major Bowser Jrs role is in the game

I'm not sure that my logic is all that outrageous or anything, so you may have to elaborate. and it could be that im just finishing off a day filled with a lot of frustration but if you had an issue with what i said, instead of inferring i make no sense, simply responding less critically would have sufficed. Sorry, i just havent had an entirely great day

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't get why people refer to Paper Mario as if he was a seperate entity; it's Mario.

EDIT: Not trying to pick a fight, but it just irks me when people refer to "Paper" Mario as if the Paper Mario spin-offs were set in some parallel universe to the main series, and act as though "Paper" Mario is the star of said spin-offs, when it's literally Mario, but in a paper art style. He's not even referred to as "Paper Mario" within the series.
At least Dr. Mario had an excuse to not be simply known as "Mario", as he's a doctor.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Gonna go ahead and restate my disdain for Paper Mario again. Not here to make waves, just to see if anyone can convince me to stop hating this idea.

Woo hoo, another Mario. Another Mario whose only real differentiating characteristics are items from battle. Oh and he's flat.

Don't get me wrong, the Paper Mario games are very dear to me. I grew up playing the original on the 64, so it isn't like I don't appreciate the series. Having multiple forms of characters playable, though, is a waste. I can see why there are two Links, considering the way every Link is a different person. But even still, the double character thing is DUUUUMB-AH.

It's great that he could use a hammer and whatever, but he's very low priority for me. The only way I'd even feel slightly positive about his inclusion is if he were incorporated into Mario's existing slot. Basically a costume change with its own moveset.

But differentiating Paper Mario from Mario by giving the former his own slot on the roster would make me cringe.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

if you look at it that way, then Toon Link should be treated as Link. Or Dr. Mario should be considered Mario also. Paper Mario is essentially the same character, but the games, and the types of things Paper Mario does are completely different. The only thing that makes Paper Mario the same as Mario are the characters involved, and the clothes he wears. The gameplay is completely different, which would make one assume that the probability of him being a clone or extremely similar to Mario very slim. (though not entirely impossible)

take this idea and apply it to Toon Link. Toon Link looks totally different from Link, and he isnt referred to as "Toon" Link in the games. Sure, its a different Link, but he is technically the same character. The gameplay between the Zelda games isn't that much different either, so Toon Link and Link are more similar to each other than Mario and Paper Mario are.

I see what you're saying, but i dont see the issue of Paper Mario being included as long as he is different from the original Mario, especially when there are two versions of Link already in Smash Bros

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Link and Toon Link are literally different people. They aren't "technically the same character." They're different characters.

And Dr. Mario is Mario (as far as I'm concerned; I don't care what some Wiki says). Same goes for Paper Mario.

Double characters are bad and should be limited to the Links, just because a second Link has been around since Melee.

But hey, to each his or her own.

 

[Deleted member]

@Scoloiosis: Except, as I said, "Dr. Mario" is excused because he's a doctor. You wouldn't refer to a doctor's name without the proper title, would you? Also unlike Paper Mario, he's actually referred to as "Dr. Mario" in the Dr. Mario spin-off series.

You have a point though, with Toon Link. Although, he is not technically the same character. They are literally just two characters that share the same style and name (although, said name is customizable, if that means anything).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

think of it this way. in the game, they are pretty much the same character. doesnt really matter that they are literally different people. They share the soul/spirit of the hero of time, who is brought back to fight the reincarnation of the king of evil, and they both share the same purpose as the protagonist of the game, only being different from one another because of the art style and size. The size is what really makes the movesets different in Smash Bros

When referring to Dr. Mario, when people argue for him to be brought back, then the argument should be the same for Paper Mario as well. "Why should Dr.Mario be in if he is literally Mario in a doctors coat?" is the same as "Why should Paper Mario be in if he is a paper version of Mario?"

The difference can be seen in what makes them a good choice for Smash Bros. from the eye of the beholder. But that is for each person to speculate, i will not judge someone elses opinion based on my own. Simply discuss, and supply counter arguments is all i will do when it comes to Mario characters

And for the record, i like Toon Link, and i liked Dr. Mario as well

EDIT: I suppose you have a point for Dr.Mario Golden, but i will still consider him Mario with a doctors coat. Until i at least see proof of a legitimate PhD from him that is

 

[Deleted member]

Don't you know? He got his degree by watching House, Scrubs, and E.R.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

The only way I'd even feel slightly positive about his inclusion is if he were incorporated into Mario's existing slot. Basically a costume change with its own moveset.

...That's called a different character...

@Scoloiosis: Except, as I said, "Dr. Mario" is excused because he's a doctor. You wouldn't refer to a doctor's name without the proper title, would you? Also unlike Paper Mario, he's actually referred to as "Dr. Mario" in the Dr. Mario spin-off series.

You have a point though, with Toon Link. Although, he is not technically the same character. They are literally just two characters that share the same style and name (although, said name is customizable, if that means anything).

That's pretty poor reasoning. Dr. Mario is still Mario just as much as Paper Mario is still Mario, despite any special titles they might have. There would be nothing wrong with referring to Paper Mario as Paper Mario. It was done in his Smash trophies by Sakurai anyway. Plus, Paper Mario does WAY more to differentiate himself from Mario than Dr. Mario does. Dr. Mario is basically Mario in a white coat with pills. Paper Mario has vast amounts of moveset potential and still looks different from the main Mario, too.

I'm not arguing for Paper Mario's inclusion, however. I'm only stating why the idea of him playable isn't so ridiculous. In truth, Paper Mario has to compete with Toad and Bowser Jr., which won't be easy.

What really annoys me when it comes to Paper Mario is when people act
actually think that he will get his own series to represent (the Paper Mario series). Now THAT is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

i wish they could include Bowser Jr and Paper Mario, especially if Paper Mario was his own series. But like you said, it probably wont happen

 

[jigglover]

Paper mario reminds me of the super mario RPG in a paper art form. Anyone else? Besides, Nintendo has probably got it down to Toad and Bowser junior already, since you'd think Mario would be the priority for them...

 

[Xhampi]

Paper mario reminds me of the super mario RPG in a paper art form. Anyone else? Besides, Nintendo has probably got it down to Toad and Bowser junior already, since you'd think Mario would be the priority for them...

That's because the first Paper Mario was supposed to be a sequel to Super Mario RPG.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

...That's called a different character...

I... didn't... say... otherwise.... (Ellipses are fun.)

I said that Paper Mario is the same character, as in PERSON, as Mario. With what I described, they would be different playable characters, but not different people. As in, different movesets.

Here's my preference:

No Paper Mario > Paper Mario with unique moveset but incorporated into Mario's slot > Anything Else

What I was trying to say is that I don't want multiple "Mario" slots. It looks stupid. I'm not against the idea of a unique Paper Mario moveset, I'm against the idea of opening the door to a roster full of "Adjective" Characters like Dark Whoever, or Paper Blah. My rationale leads me to believe that having PM incorporated into Mario's existing slot would get across the idea that he's still Mario

Ideally, there would be no Paper Mario in Smash for a loooong time. People complain all the time that there are no new IPs to give playable slots to, but somehow Paper Mario should get one? No thank you.

I'd take Dillon (even though the Rolling Western series has only had one eShop game) over any character who is a variation of an already existing one. Or just about any other character from a new series, for that matter.

It's redundant. And no me gusta redundancy. Sure whatever, he could have a unique moveset. So could anyone.

That having been said, I'm not here to poop on anyone's party. Just my thoughts. You guys support PM all you want. It's a matter of taste.

 

[pokémoneinstein]

Funny you should mention your preferences. Mine are:

Paper Mario with unique, partner-less moveset > No Paper Mario > Anything else > Paper Mario with a partner/pixl/sticker-based moveset

 

[Holder of the Heel]

Implying if we get Paper Mario that the roster will be a "roster full of "Adjective" Characters", which fortunately doesn't follow.

At any rate, what most people demand from a new character is a new appearance, new move set, and a new franchise, and he has all three. The only con is that he has the word "Mario" in his name.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Well the more vehement of P. Mario fans certainly throw the whole "YEAH WELL YOUNG/TOON LINK" thing in my face when I try to explain my distaste for "Adjective Characters."

Then Paper Mario, and Dark Samus, and Dark Matter Kirby, and Shiny Pikachu, and Poltergust Luigi, and Dark Pit and Classic Sonic, and ew. I'm not saying it absolutely will happen, but it certainly makes the case for adding a bunch of dang existing characters with words attached to the front of their names a bit more relevant.

And judging by the requests of lots of people here and elsewhere, nobody is prioritizing "new franchise" as something they want to see in a new character. Most are happy to fill the roster with characters from existing series, which is fine, as long as we aren't reaching to point where every Tom, RICHARD*, and Harry from every franchise is put into Smash. Not to say that Paper Mario isn't its own series. Let's just get some original CHARACTERS (as in, in-game entities) that are more prominent before we start adding what I see as an auxiliary character.

I would be fine with a Paper Mario character that's not Mario himself/another character that's already in Smash Bros. Hell, I'd be fine with just about any random Partner. Kooper is my biased choice. Maybe a villain? Count Bleck? Maybe Dimentio or Rawk Hawk or someone else? No double Mario, please.

*Richard because the filter is dumb and won't let me say ****, even if it's a name in an expression.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Comparing Paper Mario to characters like a "shiny Pikachu" ,Dark Pit, and Dark Matter Kirby, is a bit different. A shiny pikachu would pretty much be a costume change because it is LITERALLY the same thing, and Dark Pit is pretty much just an evil Pit. I have also never heard of Dark Matter Kirby, nor would i see them adding him ever.

I agree, Paper Mario is simply Mario, but besides the name and appearance, he is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IN GAMEPLAY. This is where he beats Toon Link and Link. They may look different, but they play almost the same, making them a worse case of "adjective" character. Seeing as though Sakurai likes having two links, then im okay with that. But all i'm saying is, that redundant characters don't have much going against them if they can be different in moveset and style other than being a different version of another character. And no, they will not include a side character from the series if they don't have the main character in there already. That's like saying they would include Ridley first instead of Samus, and then add her later.

I understand the distaste of having two similar characters, but i dont see a problem with it if they are different from one another. Its not like it totally drags down the roster. And like Holder of the Heel said, Paper Mario has all of the important things going for him.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

What I was saying about existing franchises is that we should focus more on new IPs with original characters rather than go about adding characters that are the same person, even if the new IPs are young, and even if the double characters are unique in moveset. I'm saying that folks (unfortunately) don't care about representing new series as much as they do about filling up old ones. I think there was a misunderstanding there.

But I think you've got a bit of a double standard here. Shiny Pikachu was a bit sarcastic, but Dark Pit and Dark Samus could be made just as different from their counterparts as you believe P. Mario could from Mario. Toon Link could be different from link in terms of movesets, but Sakurai has some backwards ways of looking at certain things (that being one of them). You can't just say that "Yeah, well Dark Blah would likely be a clone of Regular Blah because their gameplay is similar." You don't know Paper Mario won't be a clone just because he's an RPG character. Tink and Link may play similarly in their respective games, but nobody knows who's going to play like whom in Smash Bros., because that's up to the team, and more prominently, Sakurai.

The problem with having two characters that share a name is that you're elevating variations of characters over original ones. (if said original characters are shunned in favor of the double characters). I honestly can't think of a single character whom P. Mario takes precedence over for me personally. For me, variations of characters should be something considered after all original options from existing franchises and new franchises are exhausted.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a Paper Mario moveset. But, as much as people might like to say otherwise, character inclusion is as much about representing significant parts of Nintendo's library as it is about introducing new styles of play. That's what adding characters is about.

Paper Mario could (possibly, depending on how he's handled) fulfill one of those. Paper Mario isn't an insignificant franchise, but adding a variation of an existing character over a character from a fledgling series is not something I would do. The fact that he's *technically* representing a new franchise is a plus, but the fact he's already in the game in another form pretty much neutralizes it for me. Like I said, I'd be more excited about a non-Mario Paper Mario character.

But it's whatevs. Everybody love everybody.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

I'm not saying new franchise is a criteria of what everyone wants for a newcomer, I was perhaps a bit vague, I meant that what differentiates characters from another is that criteria and the other two, and that if we were to ask for a completely new character that is not elsewhere on the roster at all, it would be one with a unique appearance, moveset, and franchise. These are things that are a bit more objective, and follow what Sakurai said he looks for. He brings something new to the game, that doesn't change because he is "Mario" of a kind. I know you said you hate this, but Sakurai doesn't entirely value the unique "in-game entities", or at least, not to the extent that would exclude a character that practically speaking, is entirely different. Sakurai could get caught up in the theoretical aspect of it, but it doesn't seem probable given what he has done and said, and wouldn't be wise development in general. Smash Brothers is a collection of characters and games that make up Nintendo, Paper Mario's inclusion doesn't betray that. And even if we were to permit that Paper Mario inherently has less value than characters who are entirely different "in-game entities", we also must permit that he still is a viable choice considering now that the roster is getting so large, our standards are not as extreme.

But because I hate that two people are kind of ganging up on your opinion here, I will admit that I have sympathy where you are coming from, and I do have a preference and taste that would be displeased if SSB4 has characters that didn't flesh out the Nintendo experience, I just think Paper Mario can indeed do that. Though I think there are no issues with him, if he were not to be put in, and someone with a unique in-game entity was put in his place from a different franchise, I wouldn't bemoan at the stupidity and loss of it. At any rate, if we get a Paper Mario rep, there is no way it wouldn't be Paper Mario hahah, and I think most would frown at the concept.


Addressing your new post, I'm going to repeat like I have so many times before, Paper Mario literally CANNOT be a Mario clone. He is utterly incapable of replicating Mario's moves, special and not. Moving on, Dark Pit and Dark Samus aren't good parallels to Paper Mario because the former two don't have their own franchise, haven't appeared more than once, and even though they could be unique, the juxtaposition between Mario to Paper Mario compared to Pit to Dark Pit and Samus to Dark Samus is a juxtaposition in and of itself.

But anyways, it is really a question of values, no one can really be right or wrong here, the only thing we can do is try and liken our values to the ones that we know Sakurai has from history and what he has said. Would Sakurai grant a fledgling character right over Paper Mario despite his disinterest in a lot of the new franchises that have come out and may not bring as much to the table as Paper Mario in terms of gameplay (which he said is what he looks for), or would he grant Paper Mario precedence. One may argue that Paper Mario might not fulfill the "makes people want to play the game" criteria because of this "distaste" (be it right or wrong or neither) in comparison to another character who is a unique in-game entity. Bah, I need to go back to stepping away from character debates, how useless haha.

 

[Deleted member]

Paper Mario cannot "literally not be a clone".
Can he shoot Fireballs? As of Sticker Star, yes.
Can he use something to reflect like how Mario uses his cape? I don't see why he can't.
Can he jump punch? Yes.
Can he use a "Paper F.L.U.D.D."? While he's never done so, it's not farfetched; afterall, Dr. Mario was given something similar to a cape, which he's never had before. Alternatively, can he spin around for Mario's old Down Special? Yes.

Seriously; it's like people saying Krystal can't be a clone/semi-cloned just because of her staff.
He can just as easily be a clone as he can be a non-clone.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

I'm gonna wind down myself. Character debates are exhausting and usually useless considering it's one big opinion fest.

But I will say that I think many are overstating the prominence of the Paper Mario series. It's had four games. And this is not coming from someone who doesn't love Paper Mario.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Paper Mario cannot "literally not be a clone".
Can he shoot Fireballs? As of Sticker Star, yes.
Can he use something to reflect like how Mario uses his cape? I don't see why he can't.
Can he jump punch? Yes.
Can he use a "Paper F.L.U.D.D."? While he's never done so, it's not farfetched; afterall, Dr. Mario was given something similar to a cape, which he's never had before. Alternatively, can he spin around for Mario's old Down Special? Yes.

Seriously; it's like people saying Krystal can't be a clone/semi-cloned just because of her staff.
He can just as easily be a clone as he can be a non-clone.

I agree that the possibility for him to be a clone is there. But i don't think the possibility of him being one is equal to him not being one because of the differences. But like you said, there is no 100% guarantee.

I mean hey, if he's going to be a clone, then i would rather him just be a costume swap for Mario. And i will also add that other original characters should definitely be considered over a variation of another. But i dont totally think that hurts his chances either.

To further the conversation in a different direction, what ideas do we have for a final smash? I was thinking something along the lines of Art Attack from TTYD. Or probably something from Sticker Star

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

just be a costume swap for Mario.

Nah it wouldn't make sense for him to shoot fireballs

Spoiler

yes I know he does it in Sticker Star

 

[Deleted member]

@Scoliosis: I didn't say the chance of him being a clone was equal to the chance of him not being one.
I only said it's just as easy to make him a clone as it is to make him different.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

ah i see. i agree with that as well. hopefully they will see the reasons to not make him a clone before they decide to add the third marioesque character (I see Luigi as his own character, but he is still similar to Mario)

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Found something interesting. Not really SSB related, but still pretty cool IMO.