Things I Like - The Mafia Game - Game Over

[LaserGuy]

Exactly what I said. You didn't look consider the big picture. The points on fonti individually are fine... I made a lot of similar comments back in D2, as did Sync.

Maybe just to elaborate on one tiny point that has been rolling around in the back of my head. Something that your case reminded me of was your case on jimbob in D3 of Crossover mafia. You basically picked up something that was completely true about him (that jimbob's reads are super solid and he rarely changes his opinions, and that he makes a lot of giant posts that are sometimes hard to read) and sold it as scummy when it is really just something that jimbob does and is NAI for him. At least as far as fonti defending other players is concerned, I think that your point on whether or not she should have defended Sync more might fall into this sort of fonti-as-fonti category rather than fonti-as-scum. Namely that my feeling from fonti is that she defends a player exactly in proportion to the strength of her read on them. Town lean gets a weak defense; town read gets a strong defense; scum lean only gets defended if the points against them are really bad. I don't know that this is necessarily something that is indicative of fonti being scum, but rather just a kind of particular trait of her personality.

 

[Malakandra]

Wam, welcome to team town. Neighborize me tonight and I'll have a warm plate of cookies as a welcome gift.

To be clear your a townlean, but hey, its better thabefore.

 

[osieorb18]

I'm at about 4 pages in as of 45 min ago and I'll get back to it soon. Should speed up eventually.

 

[osieorb18]

Just off SoD1, Frozen and Mala look townie, Boom and Pythag look questionable. The person originally playing my slot was meh. Everyone else could still go either way for me.

 

[fontisian]

Just off SoD1, Frozen and Mala look townie, Boom and Pythag look questionable. The person originally playing my slot was meh. Everyone else could still go either way for me.

Spoiler

Quiet awoo

 

[fontisian]

Maybe just to elaborate on one tiny point that has been rolling around in the back of my head. Something that your case reminded me of was your case on jimbob in D3 of Crossover mafia. You basically picked up something that was completely true about him (that jimbob's reads are super solid and he rarely changes his opinions, and that he makes a lot of giant posts that are sometimes hard to read) and sold it as scummy when it is really just something that jimbob does and is NAI for him. At least as far as fonti defending other players is concerned, I think that your point on whether or not she should have defended Sync more might fall into this sort of fonti-as-fonti category rather than fonti-as-scum. Namely that my feeling from fonti is that she defends a player exactly in proportion to the strength of her read on them. Town lean gets a weak defense; town read gets a strong defense; scum lean only gets defended if the points against them are really bad. I don't know that this is necessarily something that is indicative of fonti being scum, but rather just a kind of particular trait of her personality.

Sidenote, doesn't everyone do this?

 

[LaserGuy]

Sidenote, doesn't everyone do this?

I feel like you are much more systematic about it.

 

[fontisian]

I feel like you are much more systematic about it.

Hmm. Noted.

 

[BoomFrog]

This would be a lot more convincing if you hadn't started backing down so quickly.

Back down from what? The Fonti push? What more was their to gain? Everyone had given their opinion. It's either yeet her or open up discussion again to gather more info. What did you expect me to do?

All his case seemed to do was harden everyone's opinion on fonti being mafia.

This makes no sense with your theory that we are mates as well. Why would I harden everyone on their scum read of my partner?

Exactly what I said. You didn't look consider the big picture. The points on fonti individually are fine... I made a lot of similar comments back in D2, as did Sync.

The bolded is not what you said previously. You said my points were "wishy-washy nonsense". Why the back-peddle?

But I suppose I should entertain the possibility that fonti is Town and it's only you that's scum in this scenario.

Fry, his eyes squinting.

That read doesn't make sense without Fonti on the team. You think I pushed FF all of D1 and repeatedly toDay, and FF has Fonti completely snowed, and FF proposes yeeting scummate!DH instead of letting the Fonti wagon keep going? Your team 100% falls apart without Fonti on it.

 

[LaserGuy]

Back down from what? The Fonti push? What more was their to gain? Everyone had given their opinion. It's either yeet her or open up discussion again to gather more info. What did you expect me to do?

I expected you to show your cards and how fonti connected to the rest of whatever scumteam you thought was most likely. What I did not expect was that the moment that I voted fonti you would immediately start backpedaling and buddying her:

Spoiler

Fonti is right, when I started this case my heart wasn't in it. But Fonti asked me to "don't uncock the gun, shoot it." so I made the case anyway. However, over the course of making the case I'm pretty sure I've convinced myself. Fonti, I really want you to be town and for us to work together here, but you really bungled D2 if you are town. Make your case, but know I am seriously still considering going through with yeeting you.

No. You first. I've proven I could have gotten you yeeted if I wanted to. Prove to me that you are town.

#HBC | Kary #HBC | Kary I know this swerve away from Fonti is going to tilt you. If Fonti is scum, who's the team? Also, btw, why did you not vote for Fonti?

Would you be for a Frozen yeet today and Fonti tomorrow if FF flips scum?

Yo dog, Fonti has a really good point here.

This is so adorable. Like fontisian fontisian , it's so hard to think these little pythag thoughts are coming from scum.

Pythag's claim doesn't clear him, but pythag REALLY believes it does, which is townie. Wam on the other hand is very concerning, with not claiming D1. I think I really want to just go for wam today. fontisian What do you think?

This makes no sense with your theory that we are mates as well. Why would I harden everyone on their scum read of my partner?

Having someone back down from a case often makes the target of their case look townier. Now you're in a position where you can say, 'You know what, fonti has convinced me that she's Town, I think we should go for low-hanging fruit in the D3 scramble' and people will buy it because you were the one who made the strongest push against her and if they've convinced you, it's probably fine. You've already laid the groundwork for this in the posts above.

The bolded is not what you said previously. You said my points were "wishy-washy nonsense". Why the back-peddle?

No, you just aren't reading closely. I said I thought your case on fonti was decent:

I actually think a lot of the points that Boom has made about fonti are, at least to some extent or other, fair.

I said your attempt at a solve is nonsense:

At the end of all of this he comes up with 'I guess it's Frozen/pythag/DH'. But there's no game context. Do these players make any sense together? Is there coordination? Distancing? Bussing? Microscopic tells that might reveal someone's inner thoughts? This is what Boom looks for when he's playing to solve the game. What we have here is... wishy-washy nonsense. This is not something I would ever expect to see from a player of Boom's ability, not if he's playing as Town.

That read doesn't make sense without Fonti on the team. You think I pushed FF all of D1 and repeatedly toDay, and FF has Fonti completely snowed, and FF proposes yeeting scummate!DH instead of letting the Fonti wagon keep going? Your team 100% falls apart without Fonti on it.

If fonti is Town, then there's a decent chance Frozen is too. I don't think Town!fonti implies Town!you.

 

[fontisian]

Laser, I don't see why Boom would do this:

Having someone back down from a case often makes the target of their case look townier. Now you're in a position where you can say, 'You know what, fonti has convinced me that she's Town, I think we should go for low-hanging fruit in the D3 scramble' and people will buy it because you were the one who made the strongest push against her and if they've convinced you, it's probably fine. You've already laid the groundwork for this in the posts above.

As scum. Your scumread on him seems completely dependent on you scumread on me.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I can 100% see scum boom scum font doing what they have done today. This is based on meta for boom and other peoples meta thoughts on font. Not sure in this scenario who the 3rd is though.

....okay, but how likely do you think it is that Boom + fonti is the team?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

But it doesn't matter, because Kary won't even talk to me.

which is funny because you ignored my questions multiple times during Day 2 and I had to chase you to answer things.

my only question for you right now is why you townread Boom here?

 

[fontisian]

which is funny because you ignored my questions multiple times during Day 2 and I had to chase you to answer things.

my only question for you right now is why you townread Boom here?

Laser, I don't see why Boom would do this:

As scum. Your scumread on him seems completely dependent on you scumread on me.

He had the opportunity to bury me and move on, and instead took the time to get reactions and backed off. If he's scum, why would he bother?

Also, I didn't intend to skip over your questions, and I went back to try to answer them when called on it. I am forgetful, I'm not trying to slight you.

 

[LaserGuy]

....okay, but how likely do you think it is that Boom + fonti is the team?

Have you read my #2275?

Laser, I don't see why Boom would do this:

As scum. Your scumread on him seems completely dependent on you scumread on me.

No, the main reason I scumread Boom is for the reasons I outlined in #2275, namely that he does not appear to be actually interested in solving the game and isn't behaving in manner that is conducive to that, which is something that BoomFrog should absolutely be doing at this stage in the game. I think the most likely world is that both of you are mafia. I think there exists a world where Boom is mafia and you are Town, and my interpretation of Boom's agenda today is just incorrect (for example, he may be trying to make himself look townier by giving you lots of time and space to defend yourself, before ultimately yeeting you anyway, or yeeting another townie and then going after you again tomorrow, or buddying you enough that you help him yeet Town tomorrow). I think there may be a world where Boom is Town and you are mafia, but it is somewhat less likely. I don't think there exists a world where you are both Town.

Hmm... I think I'd rather actually yeet Boom as it probably resolves things more clearly than yeeting you does.

Vote: BoomFrog

 

[#HBC | Kary]

He had the opportunity to bury me and move on, and instead took the time to get reactions and backed off. If he's scum, why would he bother?

That's the whole reason?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Idk why but it really, really bothers me how few slots have even cast a single vote today

more and more I re-read people posturing about a me&fonti team the more convinced I am that there is scum voice pushing that narrative because they dont want to have to NK either of us but also don't want to have fonti and me townreading each other in endgame. like I'm being nagged into being more paranoid than is warranted

I really like fonti's proposed solve, I can def see a DH/Laser team, pythag as the third I'm not quite as sold on but it's absolutely plausible. I've been townleaning pythag all game but he could be very smartly playing to snow me by mirroring my reads/sentiments which would have been a smart scum adaptation after seeing how I reacted to fonti townreading me early. Preying on my need for validation

interested to see where osie ends up with all this, a new voice will be a much needed breath of fresh air, he has a lot of rehab work to do tho to make me ok with keeping the slot around, just very seriously too much of a wildcard for my comfort at this stage of the game

 

[Wam]

....okay, but how likely do you think it is that Boom + fonti is the team?

I honestly dont know. Probably 50/50 if I had to guess. if fonti is town it's in pythag, osie, you, ff, with possibly boom or laser. But I think scum font town boon is unlikely from where we are.

 

[BoomFrog]

What I did not expect was that the moment that I voted fonti you would immediately start backpedaling and buddying her

Well it was supposed to be a surprise.

If fonti is Town, then there's a decent chance Frozen is too. I don't think Town!fonti implies Town!you.

So who's the scum team with me if Fonti is town?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Have you read my #2275?

Yeah I'm caught up, not sure I agree with you though.

 

[BoomFrog]

But I think scum font town boon is unlikely from where we are.

Really? What changed your mind so hard on this?

 

[BoomFrog]

if fonti is town it's in pythag, osie, you, ff, with possibly boom or laser

Also, that is a lot of uncertain reads man. You gotta commit somewhere.

 

[fontisian]

That's the whole reason?

No, that's not the whole reason. Look back at the end of Day 2, he was genuinely trying to get me to defend Syn, he kept pushing me towards it and tried to minimize distractions. I absolutely buy that him freaking out when they died and I didn't defend them adequately.

Is me defending him here actually helping? I'm not scum, and boom/me is not the team, but if me calling him town is just making you more certain we're both scum, then I don't really know what to do.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Boom I'm calling that a party foul

 

[fontisian]

Have you read my #2275?



No, the main reason I scumread Boom is for the reasons I outlined in #2275, namely that he does not appear to be actually interested in solving the game and isn't behaving in manner that is conducive to that, which is something that BoomFrog should absolutely be doing at this stage in the game. I think the most likely world is that both of you are mafia. I think there exists a world where Boom is mafia and you are Town, and my interpretation of Boom's agenda today is just incorrect (for example, he may be trying to make himself look townier by giving you lots of time and space to defend yourself, before ultimately yeeting you anyway, or yeeting another townie and then going after you again tomorrow, or buddying you enough that you help him yeet Town tomorrow). I think there may be a world where Boom is Town and you are mafia, but it is somewhat less likely. I don't think there exists a world where you are both Town.

Hmm... I think I'd rather actually yeet Boom as it probably resolves things more clearly than yeeting you does.

Vote: BoomFrog

What do you think he was doing with Syn Yesterday? How does that fit in?

 

[fontisian]

Look, if you think Boom/me is the team, and Boom is scum for his treatment of me, then you should be voting for me. If you ****ing yeet boom, and I end up in lylo with y'all I will be so tilted I will be completely unable to do anything and I'll be the game losing yeet. Do not make that happen.

Better yet, look through DH and Laser and Pythag treatment of each other the entire game. Look at how Pythag tells us his scum motivation as he's doing things. Look at how Laser is always the first person to jump to their defense. Look at how defensive DH is and how sketchy his Somi vote is. And then vote with me.

 

[BoomFrog]

Boom I'm calling that a party foul

I did what now? Stole your questions for wam? Where's that "gotta be faster" gif FF used D1...

 

[Wam]

Really? What changed your mind so hard on this?

I should have been clearer. I think if fonts scum your scum. I think if its scum font town boom you would have backed your case harder. I know I'm not committing on reads I'm going to have a re read tomorrow.

Off topic,
Tomorrow is my last day in my current job so it maybe manic it maybe really quiet!

 

[BoomFrog]

if its scum font town boom you would have backed your case harder.

That's harsh. I'm suposed to use my phycic powers to decern that Fonti is scum? What's the evidence you have Fonti is scum that I missed?

 

[Malakandra]

He had the opportunity to bury me and move on, and instead took the time to get reactions and backed off. If he's scum, why would he bother?

So town ask this question. This isn't that hard to figure out, man.

As scum, any time you do anything, there's a chance some people are going to react to it negatively and a chance some with react to it positively. People in a game will have polar opposite reactions to exact same thing. You can't do nothing, because that will definitely be scumread. There are times where odds matter. When I'm scum, I don't like to bus teammates, because I know my odds of winning early with them are better then my odds of winning late on my own. I tend to avoid things that will be universally scumread, because it can be hard to dig my way out from that. But everything else is up in the air, and I can do superficially scummy things knowing that people who know me will see them as town. Boom's actions have to be judged within the context of his meta, and within the expectations set for him, and with the knowledge that scum!Boom cannot appeal to everyone at once, so he's has to take calculated risks on potentially scummy looking actions.

Weaker scum tend towards no action when faced with choices where any actions will alienate someone, as you did when you did not vote at eod.

You are oversimplifying (this looks scummy, therefore scum wouldn't do it) to the point of absurdity.

Felt like these somewhat fit together.

Rn I think that there is one scum between Laser and Boom, Boom team likely being Fonti Frozen, Laser team likely being DH, Pythag. Working to try to figure out which is which.

 

[LaserGuy]

So who's the scum team with me if Fonti is town?

I'm not sure. My PoE is very tight; I would probably need to re-evaluate the Towncore. My working theory is that it is you/fonti/Frozen.

What do you think he was doing with Syn Yesterday? How does that fit in?

I think he was doing what he knew bessie, Xivii, and I would expect him to do in that scenario. Sync was going to flip Town. It was obvious to me, and it would have been obvious to Town!him. The counterwagon to Sync was wam, who is probably Town, and there were a lot of committed votes on Sync anyway, so even if he steered the yeet away from Sync it wouldn't have really mattered and might have even bought him some credit. I don't think he was taking any major risks. It would have looked much more suspicious for him to just let Sync be yeeted; sitting on his read and not committing to any wagon drama would have been a red flag.

Look, if you think Boom/me is the team, and Boom is scum for his treatment of me, then you should be voting for me. If you ****ing yeet boom, and I end up in lylo with y'all I will be so tilted I will be completely unable to do anything and I'll be the game losing yeet. Do not make that happen.

I think the most likely scenarios are, in order:
Scum Boom + Scum Fonti
Scum Boom + Town Fonti
Town Boom + Scum Fonti
Town Boom + Town Fonti

The most likely scenarios involve scum!Boom so that's where I would rather go today. Your Townread on Boom is completely unjustified.

 

[fontisian]

Felt like these somewhat fit together.

Rn I think that there is one scum between Laser and Boom, Boom team likely being Fonti Frozen, Laser team likely being DH, Pythag. Working to try to figure out which is which.

Fair. I'd point out that it's only me asking the question, and if I get yeeted Today, my opinions don't matter.

 

[fontisian]

I'm not sure. My PoE is very tight; I would probably need to re-evaluate the Towncore. My working theory is that it is you/fonti/Frozen.



I think he was doing what he knew bessie, Xivii, and I would expect him to do in that scenario. Sync was going to flip Town. It was obvious to me, and it would have been obvious to Town!him. The counterwagon to Sync was wam, who is probably Town, and there were a lot of committed votes on Sync anyway, so even if he steered the yeet away from Sync it wouldn't have really mattered and might have even bought him some credit. I don't think he was taking any major risks. It would have looked much more suspicious for him to just let Sync be yeeted; sitting on his read and not committing to any wagon drama would have been a red flag.



I think the most likely scenarios are, in order:
Scum Boom + Scum Fonti
Scum Boom + Town Fonti
Town Boom + Scum Fonti
Town Boom + Town Fonti

The most likely scenarios involve scum!Boom so that's where I would rather go today. Your Townread on Boom is completely unjustified.

Justify your townread on Pythag.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

No, that's not the whole reason. Look back at the end of Day 2, he was genuinely trying to get me to defend Syn, he kept pushing me towards it and tried to minimize distractions. I absolutely buy that him freaking out when they died and I didn't defend them adequately.

Is me defending him here actually helping? I'm not scum, and boom/me is not the team, but if me calling him town is just making you more certain we're both scum, then I don't really know what to do.

Helping who?

I feel like it's pretty unlikely you're both scum at this point, I alluded to this earlier. But I think you're the scummier of the two and a better yeet based on connections.

I just try to put myself in your shoes and I dunno why you have so much confidence in Boom town. For example w.r.t. the bolded, you clearly didn't feel that ways at the start of Day 3, you literally said:

I'm telling you to shoot the gun, not uncock it. The strength of my read on you is dependent on the ammunition.

Really the only reason I can see is that 'scum Boom would have yeeted town fonti already', but I feel like Boom is exactly the person who would be styling on you here, trying to improve his position, before he 'reluctantly' misyeets you.

 

[Malakandra]

Synchronicity - Obviously scummy. Policy yeet D2.

heh

 

[fontisian]

Helping who?

I feel like it's pretty unlikely you're both scum at this point, I alluded to this earlier. But I think you're the scummier of the two and a better yeet based on connections.

I just try to put myself in your shoes and I dunno why you have so much confidence in Boom town. For example w.r.t. the bolded, you clearly didn't feel that ways at the start of Day 3, you literally said:


Really the only reason I can see is that 'scum Boom would have yeeted town fonti already', but I feel like Boom is exactly the person who would be styling on you here, trying to improve his position, before he 'reluctantly' misyeets you.

The case itself got me, if that makes sense. Like, it was wrong, but it understood me and it explained how I would be playing as scum. It's one thing for Boom to /say/ he was seething about me through the Night phase and another thing for him to back it up witha believable case.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

man if DH and Kary are mates I'm gonna laugh my ****ing ass off at how ironic it is that so many slots gave me **** for pointing out that one early interaction they had as potentially coordinated lmaooooo the vindication would be so ****ing good

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Laser your cases hit weird to me man, so weird

I really cant put a finger on it but, idk, everytime I read one of your big posts something just feels off

 

[#HBC | Kary]

The case itself got me, if that makes sense. Like, it was wrong, but it understood me and it explained how I would be playing as scum. It's one thing for Boom to /say/ he was seething about me through the Night phase and another thing for him to back it up with a believable case.

I can understand town-reading Boom if you agree with his case, and feel it's consistent with his other words and actions.
I don't understand how you can agree with a case that says you're mafia, unless you're just mafia.

 

[fontisian]

I can understand town-reading Boom if you agree with his case, and feel it's consistent with his other words and actions.
I don't understand how you can agree with a case that says you're mafia, unless you're just mafia.

You're going to make me break down the good parts of a case against me, huh?

Fine, give me an hour or two.