Social There are three of us now?! Good thing we are the true Link.

[ShinnyMetal]

https://gyazo.com/e0f94905af0801c563ee67735287ffb9
At least this is interesting. I'm so bummed about bombsliding

 

[Rizen]

The veteran players get it so here's an in depth explanation of why the changes are largely nerfs and change Link's fundamental zoning playstyle for new players:


Link loses CQC to most of the cast so he needs to zone them. BotLink can't detonate bombs near him because the large explosion hits him too, UNLIKE IN SSB4. He's lost one of the best combo starters and zoning moves in any smash game: normal bombs. This is a huge nerf. Remote bombs only operate as a long range nuke attack and suck as C4s because the opponent can pick them up with no risk. They can't combo into attacks nearly as well because Link must pause to detonate them. The lack of a timer means he gets ledge trapped because he can't time a ledge getup or roll to be covered by the explosion. They don't work in CQC without hurting Link too.

Like I said, Link loses CQC to most of the cast. Partially because he doesn't have good angles on his attacks. Compare his sword attacks to Marth's; Link either swings along horizontal z axis lines, Fair, or stabs his sword out, Uair. Marth has nice vertical crescent slashes that don't have dead zones. How Link dealt with this was by mid-range zoning through bombs, Zair and pivots including pivot grab. Now his mid range game lost Zair, which beat Marth's sword range, and bombs 2 of the best zoning moves in the game. With the exception of boomerang Link is no longer a zoner. Unless he gets frame data buffs for sword attacks he'll be terrible.

If opponents can pick up arrows too it means wiffed arrows give characters like Ganon an item to toss at him. So if anything this is a nerf.

Boomerang at least is a strait buff.

Link's grab is a mixed blessing, assuming it's not stupidly slow like Zelda/Greninja's ssb4 grabs. Link actually has a low commitment CQC option to beat shields now. That's great for tomahawking, platform pressure (think SV), and getting critters out of his face. The downside is he loses a mid-range punish option that outranges things like Marcina's sword. Pivot grab was good in ssb4.

Losing Zair, a safe poke the size of Shulk's Bair, really sucks. Link is now much easier to dash>shield grab by characters like DK. He has no aerial mid range answer to bigger swords like Cloud's.
This also makes recoveries more linear, although moving airdodges help everyone, and he can't stall 2 frames like Ike's eruption. Link can't escape by FF airdodging offstage>tethering the ledge. This with losing bombs to cover landings seriously nerfs his landing disadvantage state.

So in the demo, Link is nonviable. He could gets frame data buffs and OP options like ding dong and still be viable in the final game, patches exist. He just won't be a zoner like before.

 

[Tri Knight]

The veteran players get it so here's an in depth explanation of why the changes are largely nerfs and change Link's fundamental zoning playstyle for new players:


Link loses CQC to most of the cast so he needs to zone them. BotLink can't detonate bombs near him because the large explosion hits him too, UNLIKE IN SSB4. He's lost one of the best combo starters and zoning moves in any smash game: normal bombs. This is a huge nerf. Remote bombs only operate as a long range nuke attack and suck as C4s because the opponent can pick them up with no risk. They can't combo into attacks nearly as well because Link must pause to detonate them. The lack of a timer means he gets ledge trapped because he can't time a ledge getup or roll to be covered by the explosion. They don't work in CQC without hurting Link too.

Like I said, Link loses CQC to most of the cast. Partially because he doesn't have good angles on his attacks. Compare his sword attacks to Marth's; Link either swings along horizontal z axis lines, Fair, or stabs his sword out, Uair. Marth has nice vertical crescent slashes that don't have dead zones. How Link dealt with this was by mid-range zoning through bombs, Zair and pivots including pivot grab. Now his mid range game lost Zair, which beat Marth's sword range, and bombs 2 of the best zoning moves in the game. With the exception of boomerang Link is no longer a zoner. Unless he gets frame data buffs for sword attacks he'll be terrible.

If opponents can pick up arrows too it means wiffed arrows give characters like Ganon an item to toss at him. So if anything this is a nerf.

Boomerang at least is a strait buff.

Link's grab is a mixed blessing, assuming it's not stupidly slow like Zelda/Greninja's ssb4 grabs. Link actually has a low commitment CQC option to beat shields now. That's great for tomahawking, platform pressure (think SV), and getting critters out of his face. The downside is he loses a mid-range punish option that outranges things like Marcina's sword. Pivot grab was good in ssb4.

Losing Zair, a safe poke the size of Shulk's Bair, really sucks. Link is now much easier to dash>shield grab by characters like DK. He has no aerial mid range answer to bigger swords like Cloud's.
This also makes recoveries more linear, although moving airdodges help everyone, and he can't stall 2 frames like Ike's eruption. Link can't escape by FF airdodging offstage>tethering the ledge. This with losing bombs to cover landings seriously nerfs his landing disadvantage state.

So in the demo, Link is nonviable. He could gets frame data buffs and OP options like ding dong and still be viable in the final game, patches exist. He just won't be a zoner like before.

Couldn't have said it better. The more we talk the more it makes sense: they've totally pushed Link into a CQC role. He's got much faster jump lag and he seems to run faster as well. His Fair is also better in my opinion, the angle on his Jab3 is a bit better, and he seems to have a slightly longer sword. Which is all fine obviously and I'd love to see Link turn into a sword fighter. But unless his frame data is buffed from the previous game, I can only see him being worse than he was in Smash4, which wasn't even that good to begin with.

But I'm gonna wait and see. Despite the negativity I may show, I am excited to see Link go into more of a sword fighter role... He just needs to do it effectively... and if not, there's always Young Link.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Stay at 0%. Spam sword beam. 8D

 

[Iridium]

Apparently, glide tossing might be back, and if so, this can help Link and make up for no bombsliding! Maybe it is a dash toss though, as some people suggested.

 

[skydogc]

Couldn't have said it better. The more we talk the more it makes sense: they've totally pushed Link into a CQC role. He's got much faster jump lag and he seems to run faster as well. His Fair is also better in my opinion, the angle on his Jab3 is a bit better, and he seems to have a slightly longer sword. Which is all fine obviously and I'd love to see Link turn into a sword fighter. But unless his frame data is buffed from the previous game, I can only see him being worse than he was in Smash4, which wasn't even that good to begin with.

But I'm gonna wait and see. Despite the negativity I may show, I am excited to see Link go into more of a sword fighter role... He just needs to do it effectively... and if not, there's always Young Link.

I'm in a similar boat. I really do have hope and am excited to make the man in green..................er blue do work. No harm in looking with a critical eye beforehand at what we have seen, right?

Also I was looking through reddit and one of the guys at E3 is doing an AMA in general. Found a question or two about Link in there and I'll Link it here :D
:D
:D
:D

Okay bad pun, but still, long story short, apparently when Link pulls out a bomb, he slows down some while running with it. Taking that kinda with a grain of salt because I really haven't noticed it stand out to me yet, but I'm gonna go try to find some videos to confirm or (preferably) deny it. If y'all've noticed, go ahead and correct me.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The veteran players get it so here's an in depth explanation of why the changes are largely nerfs

Excuse me? Leave me out of that one. I'm not passing judgement so easily. Different doesn't mean worse.
And ftr, from what I could tell, Link's grab at this stage is frame 6.

 

[Iridium]

Excuse me? Leave me out of that one. I'm not passing judgement so easily. Different doesn't mean worse.
And ftr, from what I could tell, Link's grab at this stage is frame 6.

Nice! The range on his grab is the most underwhelming part of it to be honest, so that could be buffed a bit, but not too much.

 

[Rizen]

Excuse me? Leave me out of that one. I'm not passing judgement so easily. Different doesn't mean worse.
And ftr, from what I could tell, Link's grab at this stage is frame 6.

I was talking about the people who said something. Not meaning to implicate anyone.

 

[Tri Knight]

See, idk. Again, I kind of see Link's grab as a mixed bag. One of the biggest problems Link has had was his inability to answer to shields without putting himself at massive risk. Ranged grab is good in its own right, but whiffing it was way too punishable. Yes, Zair was a valuable tool at spacing opponents and tether recovery gave Link options off stage, but the biggest answer to shields was unsafe for Link, who was unsafe against shields as is. I mean shoot, I think I remember in Smash 4 Link boards there was discussion about wishing Link did NOT have the tether grab for that very reason. I can't just write the grab off as a nerf.

And speaking of recovery, it seems bomb launches will be MUCH easier to get going with remote bombs. So one of our biggest offstage gimmicks in the past now became an indispensable tool in recovery. Coupled with Link's heavy weight, killing us might be a whole lot harder.

I wouldn't completely write his tools off. He's likely not gonna be the zoner we are all used to. I believe Young Link took on that role. What I'm seeing in Ultimate is a sword fighter with ranged options + gimmicks (personally what I've thought Link always should have been). But like I said before, as long as his frame data is up to par he'll be a force to reckon with I think. It just means he'll have to play differently. His attacks do seem faster to me at this point.

 

[PF9]

With three Links in the game, the main Link, currently patterned after Champion Link, could serve as an older brother figure to Young Link (Hero of Time) and Toon Link in my headcanons.

 

[Iridium]

From what I heard watching Scizor, he learned that apparently, tether recoveries are not possible if said character airdodges before, and the getup is now the same as without a tether, not faster. Makes me wonder how much a nerf will this be to Young and Toon Link. Link no longer has a tether, but if he did, he would deal with this.

 

[Rizen]

I've noticed several characters' attacks have shorter reach. Marth, Cloud, Ivysaur for example, although Marcina started with shorter attacks in SSB4 too and were patched. This could indirectly buff Link.

 

[zeldasmash]

If there is one thing I don't like about Link in this game is that he can't detonate the bombs while the opponent holds them. Granted, the opponent can't do much with them either, but them holding the bomb means Link is basically left without a Down B and if he's recovering, he's screwed.

Other then that, Link looks different and promising. I never thought they would ever make Link more specialized in CQC in Smash. Getting his double jump every time he gets hit out of Spin Attack greatly helps Link recover and the Ancient Bombs have a different set of utilities that can help him with stage control and definitely when it comes to recovery. He also seems to have a lot more range which is great.

I will say it again, Link in this game is basically Snake with a sword, but I really do hope they get rid of the inability to detonate bombs while the opponent holds them as this really screws Link over.

 

[Tri Knight]

If there is one thing I don't like about Link in this game is that he can't detonate the bombs while the opponent holds them.

I don't know if they're actually gonna keep that in the final version though. In BotW, one of the best uses of the bombs was baiting enemies into trying to grab it or get close to it and detonate it on them.

Even if it does stay this way, I would assume detonating the bomb before they grab it will still cause it to explode on them. If they're running towards your bomb, wouldn't you just detonate it on them before they grab/kick it like in BotW?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Keep in mind that holding the bomb means the opponent cannot use many of their other moves. So, it's not a total loss.

 

[Rizen]

If I played vs Link I'd just pick up a bomb and chuck it offstage then proceed to juggle and landing trap him. Or if I had the lead hold it and platform camp Link.

 

[Tri Knight]

Yes but couldn't the Link detonate the bomb before you get the chance to pick it up? Until someone else physically grabs that bomb, Link has total control of it. The blast radius is pretty big.

If you have it on the ground, it's serving as a mine that you can detonate when they get near it. If you throw it, you could detonate it before they get the chance to grab it.

The only thing I'm wondering about is the slight delay on detonation. If someone picks it up right when you detonate it, will it still explode on them?

 

[skydogc]

I'm actually curious if you can detonate it while you're in the middle of another action. If you can commit to other attack animations, we'll probably be able to mix it up more.

 

[Tri Knight]

What does everyone think about BOTW Link? The game is incredible but I was never fond of the Champion Tunic. I always went for the soldier armor set over that tunic. His ponytail is dope though.

I personally favor TP Link. The chainmail underneath the tunic absolutely sold it for me. Made him look like he was ready to take a hit. The Magic Armor especially was aesthetically (and I guess literally) the best armor he's had in the whole series I think.

 

[Iridium]

What does everyone think about BOTW Link? The game is incredible but I was never fond of the Champion Tunic. I always went for the soldier armor set over that tunic. His ponytail is dope though.

I personally favor TP Link. The chainmail underneath the tunic absolutely sold it for me. Made him look like he was ready to take a hit. The Magic Armor especially was aesthetically (and I guess literally) the best armor he's had in the whole series I think.

I actually like the Champion Tunic a lot, but I do wish they included some of his other armor sets in SSBU, like maybe the Zora Armor.

 

[Rizen]

What does everyone think about BOTW Link? The game is incredible but I was never fond of the Champion Tunic. I always went for the soldier armor set over that tunic. His ponytail is dope though.

I personally favor TP Link. The chainmail underneath the tunic absolutely sold it for me. Made him look like he was ready to take a hit. The Magic Armor especially was aesthetically (and I guess literally) the best armor he's had in the whole series I think.

^This. I like my Mario Red and my Link green.

...although the BotW Hylian hoodie was top tier fashion armor.

 

[Tri Knight]

I agree with both you guys. That hood is awesome. I used it with the soldier set to give him a sort of cape until I got the diamond crown.

I always wanted to have the Magic Armor from TP in Smash. Its looks are beyond sheer royalty. Look at my avatar if you don't know what I'm talking about!

The champion tunic just never did it for me. I can see that they were trying to get him out of the ol' green but for a "Champion" of the Master Sword, I was expecting more of a knightly, armored look. It's not necessarily the blue color, it's just the tunic is kind of basic to me.

 

[skydogc]

Really hoping we get the hood as part of an alternate costume. Probably won't not happen, but that'd be awesome. I think I would've liked the Champion's tunic more had I been able to actually dye it different colors.

 

[Rizen]

I just researched the CO Democrat candidates and voted in the primaries (via mail)

On topic, this shows Link's changes:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSBU)

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I just researched the CO Democrat candidates and voted in the primaries (via mail)

On topic, this shows Link's changes:
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSBU)

Link can now reuse his double jump if hit during his spin attack.

Haven't played the game for myself, but I get the feeling this wording is a bit misleading. This just means Link doesn't lose his ability to double jump after a Spin Attack, right?

 

[Iridium]

Haven't played the game for myself, but I get the feeling this wording is a bit misleading. This just means Link doesn't lose his ability to double jump after a Spin Attack, right?

He really does get his double jump back after getting knocked out of Spin Attack! For a lack of a tether, maybe this will come in handy.

 

[Tri Knight]

He really does get his double jump back after getting knocked out of Spin Attack! For a lack of a tether, maybe this will come in handy.

Woah, hold up. So link can double jump, spin attack, then jump again for a 3rd time? That AND Remote Bombs for an extra recovery launch?

We're ****ing unstoppable if that stays in. You'd legit have to blast zone us to kill us easily.

 

[Rizen]

Most characters can only double jump after being hit out of upB if they didn't already spend it. I doubt Link's any different.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Most characters can only double jump after being hit out of upB if they didn't already spend it. I doubt Link's any different.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Unless there's evidence to the contrary, I think the wiki's incorrect there.
On a slightly different note, it's cool that we no longer have to worry about facing some stupid scenario where Link gets hit off-stage in the middle of doing an aerial Up B on-stage and not being able to make it back due to lack of double jump.

 

[skydogc]

Most characters can only double jump after being hit out of upB if they didn't already spend it. I doubt Link's any different.

Most likely. Still, a welcome change. Now this - if we can detonate our bomb below us while mid spin attack, we can knock ourselves out of UpB. Could be interesting if that's the case. Doubt it's the case though.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Most likely. Still, a welcome change. Now this - if we can detonate our bomb below us while mid spin attack, we can knock ourselves out of UpB. Could be interesting if that's the case. Doubt it's the case though.

If Link could drop items while doing attacks, that would be super broken, lol.
More importantly, it doesn't seem like Link can detonate his bomb while doing anything other than standing, moving, or jumping, much like Snake in Brawl. While I'm on that thought, I think the way we'll bomb recover this time around will be similar to how Snake recovers with C4: by dropping the bomb below us and detonating it. Because of that, we'll be able to damage-boost (and wall-tech) much more consistently.

 

[Iridium]

Woah, hold up. So link can double jump, spin attack, then jump again for a 3rd time? That AND Remote Bombs for an extra recovery launch?

We're ****ing unstoppable if that stays in. You'd legit have to blast zone us to kill us easily.

No, that is not what I meant. If Link uses Spin Attack and gets hit during it in an edgeguard, he gets his jump back, and can use Spin Attack again (well, I might need to check the limitations for that, if it is 100% correct). What you said would be pretty nice to see though.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Questioning this again, specifically for those whom actually played Link at the E3 demo; is that gray costume of Link based on his trainee knight outfit in Hyrule Warriors? Because that's what it looks like. Haven't got many answers to this yet. Some claim is the Skyloft gear, but I'd like some answer to this honestly.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Questioning this again, specifically for those whom actually played Link at the E3 demo; is that gray costume of Link based on his trainee knight outfit in Hyrule Warriors? Because that's what it looks like. Haven't got many answers to this yet. Some claim is the Skyloft gear, but I'd like some answer to this honestly.

Check out this video here and go to 1:02:

All the alternate costumes are explained here, as well as for Zelda and Ganondorf, if you keep watching.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Check out this video here and go to 1:02:

All the alternate costumes are explained here, as well as for Zelda and Ganondorf, if you keep watching.

Ah alright it's the Skylof outfit. Which is also fine with me honestly. There's still the Royal Guard armor which is also very knightly, so that's also fine with me.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Ah alright it's the Skylof outfit. Which is also fine with me honestly. There's still the Royal Guard armor which is also very knightly, so that's also fine with me.

The Hylian Armor recolor looks the coolest to me, so I'll probably be using that, Skyloft Link, and the default a lot.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The Hylian Armor recolor looks the coolest to me, so I'll probably be using that, Skyloft Link, and the default a lot.

I really wanna start using Link as well. BotW has been amazing for me so far (freed 3 Divine Beast as of now, only the Goron one left) and I like how he's far more sword based this time. I just am kinda worried he won't rise above the mediocre standard he's been living up to in the past Smash games. The reports so far seem to imply he isn't much better now.

 

[Rizen]

I really wanna start using Link as well. BotW has been amazing for me so far (freed 3 Divine Beast as of now, only the Goron one left) and I like how he's far more sword based this time. I just am kinda worried he won't rise above the mediocre standard he's been living up to in the past Smash games. The reports so far seem to imply he isn't much better now.

Link will get an indirect buff from universal balancing tweaks like Marcina's, Cloud's, Ivysaur's and probably other disjoints being reduced so he doesn't lose in range and the frame 3 universal jumpsquat, if true, is a huge buff. His JS was f7 in ssb4.
But at the same time characters like Ganon got huge buffs. Without bombs and Zair I can actually see Ganon winning the MU for the first time. In ssb4 it was only a +1 advantage for Link and Link walled Ganon harder than anyone.

In terms of Link changes, mobility got buffed a bit and that works great with his non-tether grab. The more I look at remote bombs the more I doubt they'll be worth the trade off from having 2 timed bombs that don't hurt Link when they hit an opponent for combos, zoning, platform camping and landing. Bombs were one of the best moves in SSB4. I think Link will be combo food and take a semi-grappler role like SSB4 Ike, just with a nuke remote bomb for long range. His boomerang will become extremely useful as it's the only projectile that works for setups and zoning. I mean it would be great if arrows comboed but from what I've seen it doesn't look hopeful.
If Link got faster normals it would really help but somehow I doubt he will. A F5 jab and Nair would make all the difference in the world. Link's big problem in SSB4 was he got out-buttoned by everyone in CQC. He still gets "out-angled" by the curving vertical sword swings many swordies like Marcina have. I doubt he'll be faster than them.

As such he definitely could be mid tier, IMO. But he could end up low tier if he gets exploited hard. It really depends on how buffed or nerfed everyone else is. If ladders and ding dongs still exist they'll give Link a lot of trouble.

I frankly think SSB4 Link was the more solid character.
/imo

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Link will get an indirect buff from universal balancing tweaks like Marcina's, Cloud's, Ivysaur's and probably other disjoints being reduced so he doesn't lose in range and the frame 3 universal jumpsquat, if true, is a huge buff. His JS was f7 in ssb4.
But at the same time characters like Ganon got huge buffs. Without bombs and Zair I can actually see Ganon winning the MU for the first time. In ssb4 it was only a +1 advantage for Link and Link walled Ganon harder than anyone.

In terms of Link changes, mobility got buffed a bit and that works great with his non-tether grab. The more I look at remote bombs the more I doubt they'll be worth the trade off from having 2 timed bombs that don't hurt Link when they hit an opponent for combos, zoning, platform camping and landing. Bombs were one of the best moves in SSB4. I think Link will be combo food and take a semi-grappler role like SSB4 Ike, just with a nuke remote bomb for long range. His boomerang will become extremely useful as it's the only projectile that works for setups and zoning. I mean it would be great if arrows comboed but from what I've seen it doesn't look hopeful.
If Link got faster normals it would really help but somehow I doubt he will. A F5 jab and Nair would make all the difference in the world. Link's big problem in SSB4 was he got out-buttoned by everyone in CQC. He still gets "out-angled" by the curving vertical sword swings many swordies like Marcina have. I doubt he'll be faster than them.

As such he definitely could be mid tier, IMO. But he could end up low tier if he gets exploited hard. It really depends on how buffed or nerfed everyone else is. If ladders and ding dongs still exist they'll give Link a lot of trouble.

I frankly think SSB4 Link was the more solid character.
/imo

It's too early to say whether SSBU Link is a nerf of SSB4 Link. The new mechanics in this game promote offensive play much more than Sm4sh did, and word has it that his aerials have significantly less landing lag, making them safer on shield. To me, the changes so far don't make it seem like he has to take a huge gamble with every attack he throws out or have to resort to playing super-safe, which was the case in Sm4sh. This is a very different Link from what we're used to (I mean, look at how long his sword is!), so his meta is going to take a different direction as well. Especially with the new options we have from dashing.
Sure, he might be mid-tier at best, but he'll do a bit better against characters who "out-button" him, like Mario. I HATE that matchup so much.