Social The Zero Suit/Samus in Shorts Social

[Kira~]

From what I have tested, nair to flip kick spike doesn't true combo anymore.

Yeah :/

On the bright side, nair -> regular flip kick combos at higher percents, so it's a more consistent kill.

 

[BatShark]

I think these are appreciable nerfs, but are probably worse on paper than in practice. Our quality of life with things like NAir space, NAir on block (lol 1 frame) and grab active frames is going to go down a bit, but none of those are fundamental nerfs IMO.

Our % windows will change a bit, some in good ways some in bad. I'm not yet panicked about losing any core potential on our BnBs.

I am most interested in the state of our BnB at mid %s and whether or not the KBG change on DThrow puts it out of reach for us reliably at all DIs. Playing yesterday it felt fine, and for the most part the UAir changes felt like an improvement. General comboability felt fine, though the new NAir may make it a bit tougher to do what we want, but NAir -> RAR BAir felt mostly the same to me.

Side B changes maybe give us some new options and it will be interesting to see if it adds anything useful to our neutral.

It seems that our general lethality got toned down at earlier %s and potentially made more reliable at mid-high %s. I'm okay with that tradeoff if it's the case.

Big nerfs to Sheik and helpful nerfs to Bayo make me think that once we're all used to it this patch is a slight net positive for us specifically as ZSS. I think it certainly is for everyone overall because a lot of these balances across the board are on point.

 

[Bowserboy3]

That's what I thought. We still have our combos, and our playstyles haven't differed vastly. I feel like that this nerf wasn't even that bad for us, especially compared to Sheik with shaved disjoints and projectile nerfs, or MK with u-air angle alterations.

I too agree with this. For a ZSS player, it just looks like we (yes, I too play ZSS, though I'm still new to her, currently learning her) have to work a bit harder to rack up the damage. She still has her main tools like safe Nair, Nair/Zair to grabs, Paralyzer and Dsmash are still as good as ever, Dsmash to Flip Kick still works etc. It's not like how Sheik had her combo game nerfed, throw game nerfed, projectile nerfed (in turn, harassment/camping ability aldo nerfed), and virtually all of her kill setups gone. ZSS can still do a lot of the same things as before from what it seems, but she just has to do a couple more moves.

 

[Kira~]

Big nerfs to Sheik and helpful nerfs to Bayo make me think that once we're all used to it this patch is a slight net positive for us specifically as ZSS. I think it certainly is for everyone overall because a lot of these balances across the board are on point.

Yeah nerfs to Bayo and especially Sheik more than balance out our nerfs, which weren't bad to begin with.

 

[J_the_Man]

Yeah :/

On the bright side, nair -> regular flip kick combos at higher percents, so it's a more consistent kill.

I've still managed to get it to true combo. I think you might have to manually alter the flip's trajectory though more often than not. Obviously, percentages are altered. I was still getting it starting around 50%. Also, I'm feeling like the spike was nerfed. I had a training mode 0->death that I'd do on occasion that spiked cpus to death around 40. Now they get back to the ledge.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Since before release, I told myself I would learn to play ZSS but never did. Guess now should be the time.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I've heard some murmurs about using neutral air to down smash more, now that neutral air is weaker. Anyone here look into that?

 

[RebelXII]

I think we can all agree that this patch is 98% bull****. Literally all my mains were nerfed. . God damn it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think we can all agree that this patch is 98% bull****. Literally all my mains were nerfed. . God damn it.

My main wasn't touched...

yey

 

[Trifroze]

It seems like the idea behind these patch changes wasn't to do anything specifically about the bnb, since it almost didn't affect it at all. The window for it now just starts approximately 5% later but ends only 3% later, so it's a bit smaller overall. Guaranteed dthrow to bair and uair at kill percents is no longer a thing, but they both work as 50:50s even with max rage (with no rage it's very lenient, with max rage it's very strict). At least without rage airdodges that are 32 frames or more can also be frametrapped with two uairs. I don't know what the goal behind these changes were, probably just to make ZSS a bit less effective overall since that's what it at least did. Annoying to those used to her old damage values, but nothing that really effects her fundamentally.

I've heard some murmurs about using neutral air to down smash more, now that neutral air is weaker. Anyone here look into that?

I don't think that's going to work any differently, as the problem is the angle. By the time it generates enough hitstun, it's going to work just like before, but any earlier fastfallers can put their shield up on the ground and others can do either that or jump away. The window for nair into stuff seems to have been affected the same way as on bnb (which is kind of good since now nair to bair works at slightly higher percents and is more likely to kill).

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I think we can all agree that this patch is 98% bull****. Literally all my mains were nerfed. . God damn it.

Nah, disagree, since some of my mains & were buffed

 

[pichuthedk]

I've heard some murmurs about using neutral air to down smash more, now that neutral air is weaker. Anyone here look into that?

Well typically depending on the char ,% and possibly the players in ability to react correctly from the first nair hit confirmation. We can get 1-2 nair -> downsmash set ups before we end it with a grab.
Although since they nerfed the down throw damage i have a feeling j might say screw it and just use up throw for the % it does.

Although reading above what Trifroze wrote I am not sure how it'll play out I have to test but I've been salty since I heard about the grab nerf.


I know I know "it hardly matters scrub just git gud", but I've literally had multiple people looking at me play tournament sets and watch me miss a grab, To have a Sheik roll backwards twice before finally punishing me with a dash grab....

 

[Zelbur]

So what specific combos have been entirely removed for ZSS?

 

[J_the_Man]

So what specific combos have been entirely removed for ZSS?

From my testing, none. All that has changed has been percentages moving up before everything starts working.The feel oft the character has definitely changed, though, which has been infuriating to me. Plasma whip now has utility as a move. Probably more emphasis on hitting falling Uairs to combo more.

 

[Trifroze]

Anything involving dthrow, nair or uair got shifted up by about 5%, including nair to grab. Dthrow to uair/bair isn't guaranteed at kill percents anymore, but always a 50:50 (except maybe vs things like flip jump at high rage etc). Bthrow to down b still works as a DI mixup, possibly for longer now (I think the patch notes have got the KBG numbers the wrong way). Side b is still a bad move but there's some incentive to use it in neutral and possibly offstage, the angle it sends people at is pretty bad for edgeguarding or killing though.

 

[Otterz]

Anything involving dthrow, nair or uair got shifted up by about 5%, including nair to grab. Dthrow to uair/bair isn't guaranteed at kill percents anymore, but always a 50:50 (except maybe vs things like flip jump at high rage etc). Bthrow to down b still works as a DI mixup, possibly for longer now (I think the patch notes have got the KBG numbers the wrong way). Side b is still a bad move but there's some incentive to use it in neutral and possibly offstage, the angle it sends people at is pretty bad for edgeguarding or killing though.

I've tested Dthrow > uair and it seems pretty reliable at kill percents (130%) without rage. Got it to combo in training mode with DI away as well as DI in.

As for rage, I tested that with DI, but couldn't test air dodge. Dthrow > Uair at 120% with 50% rage worked as well as 100% with 150% rage. It seemed the same as pre-patch to me, although I'd like to test it with someone spamming air dodge.

Also worth noting that staling Dthrow could make it guaranteed if I'm wrong.

 

[Trifroze]

Training mode counts a combo even if airdodge becomes available, it only stops counting combos once you can attack or jump out (forgot which one, but they both come noticeably later than airdodge). Tested everything already, with rage as well, all while spamming airdodge.

 

[Otterz]

Training mode counts a combo even if airdodge becomes available, it only stops counting combos once you can attack or jump out (forgot which one, but they both come noticeably later than airdodge). Tested everything already, with rage as well, all while spamming airdodge.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess we all need to practice Nair > Bair a lot more.

 

[BatShark]

Honestly the BnB getting shifted upwards in % is good in helping to compensate for the Boost Kick nerf. Since the BK patch I almost never get kills off of it from stage level at the percents where it's true, and it's felt sliiiiightly better in that regard since.

NAir BAir working at higher %s is similarly a plus, in my book.

 

[David Viran]

Honestly the BnB getting shifted upwards in % is good in helping to compensate for the Boost Kick nerf. Since the BK patch I almost never get kills off of it from stage level at the percents where it's true, and it's felt sliiiiightly better in that regard since.

NAir BAir working at higher %s is similarly a plus, in my book.

Also Nair being able to hit any characters crouch hurtbox bar wii fit trainer, although you have to space it so your not too close and space super low as well, but it works.

 

[Trifroze]

Honestly the BnB getting shifted upwards in % is good in helping to compensate for the Boost Kick nerf. Since the BK patch I almost never get kills off of it from stage level at the percents where it's true, and it's felt sliiiiightly better in that regard since.

The window got shifted up by about 5%, but dthrow does 2% less now and the two up airs together do 3% less, so your opponent is going to be at pretty much the exact same percents as before when boost kick connects. Thus, it shouldn't make a difference and you might just be having placebo effect.

 

[BatShark]

The window got shifted up by about 5%, but dthrow does 2% less now and the two up airs together do 3% less, so your opponent is going to be at pretty much the exact same percents as before when boost kick connects. Thus, it shouldn't make a difference and you might just be having placebo effect.

Eh, possibly, or just less than perfect execution on the folks I've played so far. I tend to pay most attention to the % when I get the grab. Moreover, I've been feeling a lot better landing in between UAirs with some platform situation, at the low-mid %s, so that's been kinda nice so far.

 

[pichuthedk]

Well ladies despite the rust on my paralyzer and my inability to "git gud " I think I have finally brought you something to be proud of.
a college was doing an event but 2 days before it happened decided to open to the public smash 4 was there despite it being at 1am I killed time all day till then,

TL:DR
27 man single elim tourney and this happened. my goodness the nerf's to up air and grab's end frames were definitely felt I was up airing a cloud at like 170% on dream land and man wasn't dying I almos got eliminated early.

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

Hi there!
I'm PeachGirl, a dual Peach and ZSS main! I am happy to meet some more ZSS mains! I am VERY new to the competitive scene so please bear with me. I am an indie game developer in real life who does some archery on the side (though I'm not very good )

PeachGirl

 

[RebelXII]

Well ladies despite the rust on my paralyzer and my inability to "git gud " I think I have finally brought you something to be proud of.
a college was doing an event but 2 days before it happened decided to open to the public smash 4 was there despite it being at 1am I killed time all day till then,

TL:DR
27 man single elim tourney and this happened. my goodness the nerf's to up air and grab's end frames were definitely felt I was up airing a cloud at like 170% on dream land and man wasn't dying I almos got eliminated early.

Try not to go for up airs now. Try landing the D-throw to Bair combo more not to mention the fact that you have to play more safe. I believe you go far if you put 100% in to this tournament.

Hi there!
I'm PeachGirl, a dual Peach and ZSS main! I am happy to meet some more ZSS mains! I am VERY new to the competitive scene so please bear with me. I am an indie game developer in real life who does some archery on the side (though I'm not very good )

PeachGirl

welcome. Anything you need just ask me.

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

I am LOVING that pic! Made me crack up.. I have to have to go offline for a little while to finish my graph paper drawings of my levels
Fun Fact: when Nintendo was making the original Super Mario Bros, they drew their levels on graph paper like me. That was mainly due to hardware limits, for me it's a matter of not getting real coding software until my b-day.
Also, does anyone know if Peach has a social thread? I looked but couldn't find one

 

[pichuthedk]

Try not to go for up airs now. Try landing the D-throw to Bair combo more not to mention the fact that you have to play more safe. I believe you go far if you put 100% in to this tournament.

welcome. Anything you need just ask me.

Yeah for real I literally had to rewrite some internal programming when i had been up all day and didn't get to play my first set till 2am. I faced Roy who's neutral game was so gosh darn good that I CP him to duck hunt G5 ( I literally relaxed my guard because I won the Bo2 despite sd at 0% g1 then we found out it was Bo5) and ran/kited him the whole game picking him apart slowly. I Also had to literally relearn the cloud MU especially with the grab nerfs I was not getting nearly as mainly forced to not sit in shield because of his grab mixups. ultimately trying to focus on mobility I guess.

 

[RebelXII]

I am LOVING that pic! Made me crack up.. I have to have to go offline for a little while to finish my graph paper drawings of my levels
Fun Fact: when Nintendo was making the original Super Mario Bros, they drew their levels on graph paper like me. That was mainly due to hardware limits, for me it's a matter of not getting real coding software until my b-day.
Also, does anyone know if Peach has a social thread? I looked but couldn't find one

Some social threads are really small. they don't talk a lot, but here you go http://smashboards.com/threads/mush...nd-find-off-online-matches-here.385681/page-2 I suggest the smash 4 social thread. They have every main there.

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

And I'm back! Quick question, what do you feel are ZSS's best kill moves?

 

[David Viran]

My goodness the nerf's to up air and grab's end frames were definitely felt I was up airing a cloud at like 170% on dream land and man wasn't dying I almost got eliminated early.

That's weird because due to uairs increased kbg it should actually be stronger at that kind of percent. I'm pretty sure that's just cloud being heavy.

 

[RebelXII]

And I'm back! Quick question, what do you feel are ZSS's best kill moves?

Bair Up-B Fair Down-B Up-tilt and Dair in some case's.

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

Thanks! I'm going offline for the night, see you guys later!

 

[pichuthedk]

That's weird because due to uairs increased kbg it should actually be stronger at that kind of percent. I'm pretty sure that's just cloud being heavy.

I was proabaly stalling the hell out of it since I was going for extremely safe up air because this was a player in my region so he's seen me play no doubt while I rarely see him and he was good at fighter's. the pressure to perform was also there though I guess I was the only ranked player there and it was single elim...or as i like to call it laugh you lose...

I actually feel like I should have lost that set because I shielded finishing touch when he had rage. If this was prepatch...I don't know if my shield would have held out.

 

[David Viran]

I was proabaly stalling the hell out of it since I was going for extremely safe up air because this was a player in my region so he's seen me play no doubt while I rarely see him and he was good at fighter's. the pressure to perform was also there though I guess I was the only ranked player there and it was single elim...or as i like to call it laugh you lose...

I actually feel like I should have lost that set because I shielded finishing touch when he had rage. If this was prepatch...I don't know if my shield would have held out.

Shield stun/damage is calculated from damage and clouds finishing touch only does 1% and always has lol. So it wouldn't have made a difference pre patch.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Hey all! Here are some things I've been working on lately. None really make for a good solo post, so here they are!

===============

I did some looking at pre and post patch ladder combo percents. While it was compared in training mode, in both cases I worked until I could no longer get the combo to register on the combo counter.

It's not meant to give a sense of realistic range and reliability (di, stale moves, and rage all change that), but instead give a sense of relative change between patches.

Anyways, the dummy was Cloud with and without limit. And the results are as follows:

No Limit
Per: 38 - 47
Post: 34 - 49

Limit
Pre: 38 - 54
Post: 40 - 56

I think that the combo's maximum viability will extend to later percents on all characters, but whether its minimum viability changes will be based on the gravity of the character in question.

===============

Another small, but not solo post worthy, thing I've worked on are throw FAFs. Since they do not exist on Kurogane Hammer, I estimated them in 1/4 advance mode. All values are subject to a plus or minus 1 frame error. Frame counting starts when the input direction for the throw is given.

Down
Hits on 27, 29, FAF = 44
FAF - last = 15

Up
Hits on 4, 9, FAF = 45
FAF - last = 36

Forward
Hits on 6, 15, FAF = 33
FAF - last = 18

Back
Hits on 9, 15, FAF = 32
FAF - last = 17

===============

A while back we all sussed out a way to hit an outwardly facing flip kick with reduced momentum, making it safer. The method involved hitting the control stick and the c stick on opposite directions.

I think I found a way that halts momentum completely.

If you flip kick to the right, kick inward to the left and immediately move the control stick to the right. Importantly, you must hit the attack button for the inward kick before moving the control stick.

Switch directions fast enough, and you'll have an outwardly facing flip kick that's effectively in place. I like it for making off stage kick attempts. Try it out!

===============

Lastly, I may have worked out a Hype Kick III. It's got some execution barriers and I've never used it in a match. It depends on ledge cancelling, so I'm trying to finally unravel the buffered nair mystery... why do ledge cancelled flip kicks lead to buffered nairs even if you only gave the game one input?

Anyways,

Those are some small thoughts I've had over the last few weeks. I hope it helps people.

Cheers!

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

Am I the only one who didn't really have issues adapting to the nerfs? They were a tad annoying at first but they really didn't bother me all that much. However ZSS vs Peach is pretty much carnage for me as ZSS which is funny considering I main Peach...I am getting a taste of my own medicine and I REALLY don't like it. I kinda feel bad for people I play against now.

 

[Trifroze]

I'd say as far as ZSS' kill moves go:

Bair: strong and it's very safe to just keep throwing it out, can be comboed into from nair and down throw
Boost kick: strong and comes out extremely fast, but should only be used for guaranteed punishes (usually doesn't connect fully in rage though)
Down smash: quite safe and sets up into basically anything such as down b, fsmash, up b and so on, especially good at the ledge
---
Uair: while it's relatively weak, it's fast and combined with ZSS' high jumps you can use it pretty close to the ceiling and net kills at around 120-140%
Fair: I basically only use this for edgeguarding, but it's still good for that and kills at around 100% in those situations
Flip kick: when fading back to the stage with a flip jump after an edgeguard situation for example, you can use this to try to hit the opponent trying to recover to the ledge
---
Utilt: basically for when nothing else works and the opponent keeps jumping and running around you, rage gives this a huge boost
Usmash: a slightly underrated move, traps landings very well and kills at around 140-150%, but as early as 90-100% at max rage

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

Hey,
Quick question, what do you think is ZSS's worst matchup? I seem to have a lot of trouble with Rosaluma but maybe that's just me.

 

[Otterz]

Hey,
Quick question, what do you think is ZSS's worst matchup? I seem to have a lot of trouble with Rosaluma but maybe that's just me.

I've always considered it to be Pikachu, but I've seen Diddy Kong and Fox brought up before. I'm disregarding Sheik right now because its too early to tell IMO.

 

[LegendOfZeldaNut]

Yeah, I agree with those. I've never really had a problem with Diddy Kong though