~ The Wolf Matchup Center

[Seagull Joe]

wow taht was an awesome video gull. 6:08 was sick. barracuda drifter worthy

**EDIT**
my god another side b hit

u've come a long way gull. ure actually WOWing me

Thanks JJ .

 

[MegaRobMan]

Yo, can we discuss Peach. I got knocked out of a tournament by a legit peach main and i'm not familiar with that Match Up at all... Can someone enlighten me with knowledge on this?

I'll cover the "What to watch out for against peach" part of this. Do NOT let her get above you or directly above her, especially at 0%, and especially if she's floating slightly above ground and you are juggled above her, you're screwed even with excellent SDI if the peach is good at reading your jolts.

Stay out of these zones (note the above zone is smaller than the under zone)

Edit: The zones I'm trying to show are ****ing ******** so...

Wolf
\/
Peach

Peach
/\
/ \
Wolf

or you will get dair spammed into u-tilt. Jumpshine camping can counter this, but 80% of the time you. Watch out for her jab into dash attack/grab mix up.

 

[ShadowSpear]

I'll cover the "What to watch out for against peach" part of this. Do NOT let her get above you or directly above her, especially at 0%, and especially if she's floating slightly above ground and you are juggled above her, you're screwed even with excellent SDI if the peach is good at reading your jolts.

Stay out of these zones (note the above zone is smaller than the under zone)

Edit: The zones I'm trying to show are ****ing ******** so...

Wolf
\/
Peach

Peach
/\
/ \
Wolf

or you will get dair spammed into u-tilt. Jumpshine camping can counter this, but 80% of the time you. Watch out for her jab into dash attack/grab mix up.

Cool, thanks for the help/info! I guess i just was unfamilar with fighting a good peach in general to begin with... I need way more match up experince. >__>

 

[MegaRobMan]

I've played Sm3esh in my development, who quit to play more melee, and recently I've almost been taking sets off Nicole in tournament, so I think I get the matchup from both angles. Peach is pretty dumb though, her priority is surprising.

Also, F-smash when she picks up turnips. No other character can punish her like Wolf can for plucking, as if you are out of the f-smash zone, you still have a blaster.

 

[Nicole]

namesearched!
60:40 in wolf's favor imo, tho i dont know too many peaches who agree with me. shine out of everything, camp her on the ground with lasers, stuff her aerial approaches with bair, live forever cause you're wolf and she's peach. if you have good spacing and camp hard i dont see how wolf doesnt win this solidly.

 

[ShadowSpear]

I've played Sm3esh in my development, who quit to play more melee, and recently I've almost been taking sets off Nicole in tournament, so I think I get the matchup from both angles. Peach is pretty dumb though, her priority is surprising.

Also, F-smash when she picks up turnips. No other character can punish her like Wolf can for plucking, as if you are out of the f-smash zone, you still have a blaster.

So, basically what you're saying is that Wolf has no problem pressuring the crap out peach when he needs to, right?

Also in your (Or anyones elses) opinion, who do you think has the overall better number of favorable/good Character Match-Ups on the rest of the cast between or ?

I'm just curious, because i main both and

 

[Ishiey]

Well... in general, it looks like Fox does better against characters above them on the tier list and Wolf does better against characters below them. In terms of counters, Wolf does better vs ICs and Sheik, and Fox does a LOT better vs D3 while also doing better vs Wario.

In the end though, you should just stick to whoever you're most comfortable with. You'll find out if you want to pick one or co-main them after a few tournaments I'm sure

 

[ShadowSpear]

Well... in general, it looks like Fox does better against characters above them on the tier list and Wolf does better against characters below them. In terms of counters, Wolf does better vs ICs and Sheik, and Fox does a LOT better vs D3 while also doing better vs Wario.

In the end though, you should just stick to whoever you're most comfortable with. You'll find out if you want to pick one or co-main them after a few tournaments I'm sure

Alright, cool. Thanks for your opinion and Match-up insight!
I appreshiate it, Ish!

 

[Ishiey]

No problem

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Hey I need some shiek adivce I keep losing to billys shiek in tourney so I just go ike

 

[MegaRobMan]

I usually just go Marth, but I know the 2009 Sheik metagame pretty well.

Seagull man says you should hang out around the edge, and I agree with that.

It's the usual don't get f-tilted thing, but there's more going on here. Not letting her get/throw you off stage is key, as she has needles, and those gimp the **** out of us and hit us at weird angles. She may not have a lot of knockback, but her aerials can gimp us at low%'s too, and her nair is really good at punishing air dodges too...though tbh, now that sheiks can all DACUS at will, baiting an AD into a DACUS is a scary mind game. This is one of the "Don't use your 2nd jump unless you have to" characters, that's for sure.

Offensively, blaster and shine combo is great, both for camping and for reflecting. If you can get a fully charged needle reflected back at her, you can Blaster/DACUS/F-smash/(b/f)air her in time depending on where you are at on stage.

 

[Luminoth64]

^along with that, standing on the ledge can also be dangerous/annoying depending on how the Sheik is positioned. If you're on the left side and she hits with you with a bair from the left, you ALWAYS move left and risk falling off the stage.

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Hmmm I see recommend ban stages?

 

[Ojih~Sama]

i would say ban FD

she is good at punishing ur landings

 

[MegaRobMan]

Near impossible matchups:
Terrible matchups:
Almost even but (40-60 and 45-55)...:

I realize that banning brinstar is what IC's want to do, but banning battlefield might be a better idea, that stage is like 75-25 wolf, brinstar is like 60-40 wolf, the rest of the stages are in IC's favor, IMO, that's why I say it's still in IC favor, so it's basically who wins the first match.

All other matchups are either like negligable advantages for them or even or w0flrapecopter.

 

[Laem]

Almost even but (40-60 and 45-55)...:

Those are all harder than sheik imo

 

[~ Gheb ~]

> > / / >

Imo

 

[Ishiey]

Who wants to work on making a tier list for our MUs? It'll probably be really tough, but could turn out pretty interesting.

As for my general opinion on our disadvantages, > > > (I really think he's harder at top levels of MU knowledge) > / (don't have much experience with this one) > / /

 

[Deleted member]

A MU tier list?

I always liked that idea.

 

[Ishiey]

I can try setting it up in a similar fashion to the way the Brawl tier list was made, it'll be a lot of voting lol. Maybe after MU chart v2 is out we can try it? :3

Honestly, I've always liked the concept, since an issue with MU charts is that one side finds a MU to be in line with their 0s where another find it to be more in line with their +1s, it's all so subjective :/

EDIT: holy crap my avatar looks tiny next to yours lol

 

[Seagull Joe]

is even with //and possibly .

>>>>> (I only included the 6 bad matchups we have).

 

[Ishiey]

I feel like ICs are so hard to rate, in theory they should beat us but in practice I think it's on the same level as Falco/Diddy, just a very slight disadvantage. And idk about Snake, sometimes I think it's with Falco and Diddy, other times I just ragequit and claim it's our worst non-CG MU or some **** lol. And Sheik is a wild card, really wish I could get some experience with that MU :/

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Joe, you've never beaten a Snake / Diddy player who's good vs Wolf. No Wolf player has.


[collapse="My tier list"]Top Tier:

S:
A:

High Tier:

B:
C:

Mid Tier:

D:
E:
F:

Low Tier:

G:
H:
I: [/collapse]

Edit: If we're going by theory I'd say Wolf beats ICs handily 0_0

 

[Ishiey]

@___@ Elaborate on this theory for ICs? Or are we waiting until the MU comes up lol

[collapse=My (rough) tier list]S:
A:

B:

C:

D:
E:
F:
G:

H:
I:
J:

I kinda quit ordering around I tier lol, too lazy atm[/collapse]

 

[MegaRobMan]

Anyone that doesn't have Wario as S tier is a fool, like I was before I played Reflex's Wario, now I think it's even with D3. That matchup is so dumb, Wario has better air speed, godly grab range and stupid kill moves and never dies and has like 93 jumps. Oh, and if he grabs you once you're dead, he's IC's.

Also, Sheik sucks more than Falco, imo. I understand maybe Snake and MK being more difficult for various reasons. I dunno, I've always just gone Marth vs Sheik so I'm not sure if I know what to do in that matchup as well.

 

[Ishiey]

But why are you on the ground when the opponent can CG you? And we beat him in the air horizontally, idk, it's definitely still bad but I feel like it's more manageable than D3. Reflex thinks it's only a +/-2 iirc.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think a lot of people still aren't very good vs ICs in general [even though I think they're too low on the tier list] ... punishing their side-B, playing max-level efficiency when they're separated, camping/stalling them hard-core, going for the time-out vs Sopo, ... a lot of these things aren't exploited and Wolf technically excels at all of these things.

Anyone that doesn't have Wario as S tier is a fool, like I was before I played Reflex's Wario, now I think it's even with D3. That matchup is so dumb, Wario has better air speed, godly grab range and stupid kill moves and never dies and has like 93 jumps. Oh, and if he grabs you once you're dead, he's IC's.

Been saying this for a year now ... Wario is easily as bad as DDD.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Joe, you've never beaten a Snake / Diddy player who's good vs Wolf. No Wolf player has.


[collapse="My tier list"]Top Tier:

S:
A:

High Tier:

B:
C:

Mid Tier:

D:
E:
F:

Low Tier:

G:
H:
I: [/collapse]

Edit: If we're going by theory I'd say Wolf beats ICs handily 0_0

Takeover and Player-1/Esoj. Barely lost to Mvd 1-2.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's far from impressive.

Edit: Especially compared to our losses against these characters 0_0

 

[Deleted member]

@Wario complaints: Welp, I guess I'm a fool, then.

I'll post a list when I'm not mobile.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Who do you consider impressive other then Ally, Razer, and Fatal for and Adhd and Gnes for ?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Who do you consider impressive other then Ally, Razer, and Fatal for and Adhd and Gnes for ?

"Impressive" is relative. For your level: if you beat MVD's / Havok's Snake or Lp's Diddy you can color me impressed. Wins over Bizkit, AlphaZealot or other players on a similar level wouldn't hurt either.

 

[Deleted member]

Beating AZ would be pretty good. He beat Kain, and overall I think AZ is a really solid player.

Spoiler

...when he's not drinking...

 

[Luminoth64]

There's no way Sheik is easier than Falco. I still think that Falco/Wolf is incredibly close to even.

 

[Deleted member]

If you have ANY experience at all vs. Lucas, I want to see you guys posting in here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13557849#post13557849

Thanks to Ish and Joe who have been contributing.

 

[DUB]

Seagull has Pika > Wario and Ishy has Wario > Pika. Is this just because Warios in these regions don't/can't realiably do the D-throw CG?

I've seen Kain play Kryz and no CG. Blue Rogue play Seagull and no CG. I havent seen Reflex play a Wolf but I've seen him CG Falcos perfectly and it's my understanding that is the hardest one to do. Just curious because I personally think Pika is a little tougher then Wario.

EDIT: For sake of voting for next discussion mine goes to/

 

[castorpollux]

"Impressive" is relative. For your level: if you beat MVD's / Havok's Snake or Lp's Diddy you can color me impressed. Wins over Bizkit, AlphaZealot or other players on a similar level wouldn't hurt either.

i have wins over bizkit O_O

 

[Ishiey]

I had Wario over Pika?... Whoops lol. Idk, that's not what I think anymore xD Anyways, I know Warios that can do the CG pretty consistently, it's really not that difficult to buffer two inputs :x The reason I think Pika is harder is because imo Wario is easier to zone out with bair, as well as Wario not having a free kill out of his CG.

The new MU chart will release in a day or two btw. I'll put up Wolf's new spread, which is ordered by difficulty within each category according to votes between Gheb, Seagull, Kain, and myself. From there, I'm thinking that I suck and need to stop being lazy so it'll be best to just crap out exports in order on a weekly basis after APEX

EDIT @ JJ: Play competitvely again!

Spoiler

Also, come to APEX

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Who do you consider impressive other then Ally, Razer, and Fatal for and Adhd and Gnes for ?

Player 1 for diddy and you know why I say this

 

[Seagull Joe]

Player 1 for diddy and you know why I say this

I beat Player 1.