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The Waffle House (Video Thread)

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
I've been watching tons of Wolf Videos lately and I think most Wolf players don't utilize the character to it's full potential yet (which seems obvious since the game is quite young). What I think is interesting is that because there hasn't been a set metagame developed up to this point every player has s way more unique playstyle then players of the same character have in Melee.
Chillin for example uses a lot more utilt and down air than most people. He also goes for a lot of shine to side b kills at higher percentages.

I feel like most Wolfs so far lack proper use of the Blaster so far. I also feel like Nair is heavily underused, both in combos as a combo extender and as a combo starter (also sets up for dsmash at kill %). I also think that the different hitboxes on fair have great potential in combos and as a finisher. Last of all I feel like people need to use the option to go for DI mixups between Down and Back Throw more. At this point I watched most Wolfs just go for Back Throw techchase or Dash Attack. With DI mixups both Down and Back Throw can lead to Fair or Side B Kills at higher %.

I'm kinda hyped right now and want to advance the Wolf Metagame. So if any of you guys also discovered some things that Wolfs in general not seem to be using please share them.
 

Arctic

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
27
Here's a playlist of me, SmokedSalmon, playing Wolf yesterday. Critiques are greatly appreciated!
Watching the fox video, I think one thing that would greatly improve your combo game is wave shining. Not only can you carry fox across the stage but you can put yourself in the right position to follow up. Also don't be scared to do OOS options, like shield grabbing or Nair out of shield, etc. Otherwise, great use of very disrespectful uptilts
 

Spiffykins

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
547
http://www.twitch.tv/pastimelegends/b/557133293

There's a bit of me playing Wolf in friendlies here starting at about 30 minutes into the video. I did pretty well until one of our better players came and shrekt me with Link.

Also, if you tune into pastime legends next week on Thursday we'll be having a PM local tournament, and I'll probably play mostly Wolf on stream. If I get knocked out early you can all tell me what I did wrong in the chat and if I kick butt then you get to see me kick butt with Wolf so it's a win-win either way.

(might edit this post later to add some critique of yous guys' videos)
 

bountyxhunted

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 18, 2013
Messages
49
Location
larkspur,colorado
Winners Semis match, Wolf vs Marth. I was feeling the pressure these games and I believe I wasn't playing risky enough. Critique very much appreciated
As i was watching i noticed a couple of things. You enjoy dash attacking ALOT! Although wolf's dash attack is really good it's an easy punish, especially when your opponent is dash dancing. As you can tell the marth eventually was expecting it and started shield grabbing which is awful in the match up. Remember adapt to a matchup shine to down air is not a very good option on Marth because he's too light try either up air or nair. Wolf's lazer's are excellent for pressure but not for spacing, remember to play a bit more patiently, try to dash dance bait instead of attempting to go in when your unsure. When you edgegaurd you tend to hesitate, DON'T HESITATE it's the worst thing to do, just do it.

Other than that you're doing fine.
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
288
Location
Greenock, Scotland
NNID
TimeMuffinPhD
As i was watching i noticed a couple of things. You enjoy dash attacking ALOT! Although wolf's dash attack is really good it's an easy punish, especially when your opponent is dash dancing. As you can tell the marth eventually was expecting it and started shield grabbing which is awful in the match up. Remember adapt to a matchup shine to down air is not a very good option on Marth because he's too light try either up air or nair. Wolf's lazer's are excellent for pressure but not for spacing, remember to play a bit more patiently, try to dash dance bait instead of attempting to go in when your unsure. When you edgegaurd you tend to hesitate, DON'T HESITATE it's the worst thing to do, just do it.

Other than that you're doing fine.
Thanks for the advice! Just so you know, a Wolf Skype group has just been created and we're trying to build a foundation. If anyone would like to join add me 'razorzxz' on Skype.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 27, 2008
Messages
26,545
Does @ SinisterB SinisterB have any intentions of updating this or should I be looking for someone to take over this thread?
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Finally got some footage. It's doubles though but oh well. I'd really like some critique.

Game 1 - Chef + Zetsu vs. Trem + SoSwaggie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cxUXV2W6ts&list=PLiKOJrXEYmnV7iOHNxHqbxT4kMcMWhL9u
Game 2 - Chef + Zetsu vs. Jynx + Vash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCediiBhIRs&list=PLiKOJrXEYmnV7iOHNxHqbxT4kMcMWhL9u
Game 3 - Chef + Zetsu vs. Mouse + champrodeo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz9kBvrYupY&list=PLiKOJrXEYmnV7iOHNxHqbxT4kMcMWhL9u

A little background: wasn't planning on entering doubles but did friendlies with this guy Zetsu (nice dude, was in like grade 10 lol) and we didn't have partners so we figured why not have some fun :).

I know game 1 our opponents weren't the best, hence me doing the 2v1 haha. Game 2 was vs. 2 of the top 3 players in our entire region, so we got bopped but it was still a great learning experience. Game 3 was pretty solid, had a clutch 4 piece combo to seal game 1 after the fox almost made a great comeback.

My personal observations are that I need to laser more (I have my laser wavelands down now though, I was still not comfortable with them at this tourney), not aerial after my double jump so much (just get away instead), dash dance some more, avoid shielding at a distance for so long, don't CC for so long in one spot, do some shine->grabs, and generally play more patient.
 
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Mr. PotatoBread

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
27
/watch?v=H8tbxJP3eIE&list=PLbApI5wLrGsJOU3U4FyNfz5taa4Ca81WJ&index=3
- Mr. PotatoBread(Wolf) vs. Mc$(Ganondorf) - Tournament - Pool B Losers' finals
(Smashboards says I can't post links yet)

The video is in a playlist with some of my friendlies during that tournament.

On the tourney match itself:
I get bodied pretty hard on the first match, but I manage to pull myself together for the second.

Watching the videos again, I can definitely see combos which I could've continued but didn't. I also should've asked for a short button check or hand-warmer, since I was playing sheik in the match before this - speaking of which, I opted for wolf rather than sheik since I felt that wolf is harder to chaingrab with Uthrow under platforms, while Dthrow chaingrabs on sheik can happen pretty much anywhere.
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
288
Location
Greenock, Scotland
NNID
TimeMuffinPhD
/watch?v=H8tbxJP3eIE&list=PLbApI5wLrGsJOU3U4FyNfz5taa4Ca81WJ&index=3
- Mr. PotatoBread(Wolf) vs. Mc$(Ganondorf) - Tournament - Pool B Losers' finals
(Smashboards says I can't post links yet)

The video is in a playlist with some of my friendlies during that tournament.

On the tourney match itself:
I get bodied pretty hard on the first match, but I manage to pull myself together for the second.

Watching the videos again, I can definitely see combos which I could've continued but didn't. I also should've asked for a short button check or hand-warmer, since I was playing sheik in the match before this - speaking of which, I opted for wolf rather than sheik since I felt that wolf is harder to chaingrab with Uthrow under platforms, while Dthrow chaingrabs on sheik can happen pretty much anywhere.
Okay so I noticed a lot wrong with this, and that's a really good thing, means you have a lot to improve on. Firstly I want to mention that the best way to play this matchup is really lame Ganon out. You don't have to approach him unless you hit a laser, otherwise keep firing. You also need to work on your laser wavelanding just as an fyi. You can tell you aren't doing it perfectly when you hear Wolf make that noise. The other way you lame him out is by throwing him off-stage and going deep; d-air is the best way to gimp him and then grab ledge. I noticed you opted for a b-throw near the ledge to put him back on stage, f-throw would've been much more optimal. Also I noticed when the Ganon was recovering low you let him recover, it's much better to just grab the ledge and press A when he's about to grab it. Ganon's recovery isn't that good apart from the hitbox, which you can avoid by pressing A (which makes you invincible for a short amount of time). I also noticed that once you did get in on him you sorta hit him once and backed off. Once you get in on Ganon you have to keep going, Wolf zero to deaths Ganon really easily, and Ganon also struggles to deal with pressure up close. Wolf has a b-throw chaingrab on him, and you can DI trap him with D-throw also. If they DI the b-throw just tech chase and predict him, if he doesn't DI just keep chain-grabbing. A really easy combo on Ganon is N-air shine > N-air shine over and over (it even links from b-throw with no DI), pillaring him with D-air shine also works really well. Basically any combo works against Ganon. Overall, practice your tech in general and work on playing against ganon; lame him out if you need too; don't be afraid to combo him for longer; and work on edge-guarding him. Good luck man.
 
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Mr. PotatoBread

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
27
Okay so I noticed a lot wrong with this, and that's a really good thing, means you have a lot to improve on. Firstly I want to mention that the best way to play this matchup is really lame Ganon out. You don't have to approach him unless you hit a laser, otherwise keep firing. You also need to work on your laser wavelanding just as an fyi. You can tell you aren't doing it perfectly when you hear Wolf make that noise. The other way you lame him out is by throwing him off-stage and going deep; d-air is the best way to gimp him and then grab ledge. I noticed you opted for a b-throw near the ledge to put him back on stage, f-throw would've been much more optimal. Also I noticed when the Ganon was recovering low you let him recover, it's much better to just grab the ledge and press A when he's about to grab it. Ganon's recovery isn't that good apart from the hitbox, which you can avoid by pressing A (which makes you invincible for a short amount of time). I also noticed that once you did get in on him you sorta hit him once and backed off. Once you get in on Ganon you have to keep going, Wolf zero to deaths Ganon really easily, and Ganon also struggles to deal with pressure up close. Wolf has a b-throw chaingrab on him, and you can DI trap him with D-throw also. If they DI the b-throw just tech chase and predict him, if he doesn't DI just keep chain-grabbing. A really easy combo on Ganon is N-air shine > N-air shine over and over (it even links from b-throw with no DI), pillaring him with D-air shine also works really well. Basically any combo works against Ganon. Overall, practice your tech in general and work on playing against ganon; lame him out if you need too; don't be afraid to combo him for longer; and work on edge-guarding him. Good luck man.
Thanks for the input man!

I've started working on training my wolf more seriously instead of just playing against CPUs, and these tips on improving my tech really help me out!
 

TimeMuffinPhD

PhD in time travel and muffins.
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
288
Location
Greenock, Scotland
NNID
TimeMuffinPhD
Thanks for the input man!

I've started working on training my wolf more seriously instead of just playing against CPUs, and these tips on improving my tech really help me out!
Np man. Start a convo on smashboards if you wanna ask anything. And if you're interested in the Wolf Skype Group add me 'razorzxz'.
 

Mr. PotatoBread

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
27
Np man. Start a convo on smashboards if you wanna ask anything. And if you're interested in the Wolf Skype Group add me 'razorzxz'.
I already am in the group, I'm the Brazilian from yesterday. It's just that I should be doing work right now and I'm procrastinating really hard so I don't want to log into skype and make my procrastinating worse. :p
 

Chef2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
137
Boys I got some singles footage! Except I get 3-0'd by ike haha (buddy of mine who is 3rd in our region). Starts at 5:02:00
http://youtu.be/8BftQ-9bUv8

Any criticism/comments greatly appreciated! I won't go into huge detail but from what I noticed threw a few bad side b's, didn't always pick the optimal move in combos, my usual abysmal DI, lack of lasers, didn't shine grab.
 

XF_Awkward

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
28
Location
Southern Indiana
Yo I was actually looking for wolf gameplay last night and came across your video before you even posted it here lol. I have some thoughts on it, probably not gonna be organized well but I'll throw down what I think is going on.

Don't be offended on how I word these things, its meant as constructive criticism, not an attack at you.

Game 1
1. You have no dash dance. At all.
2. Your lazer approach is very telegraphed. Every lazer is either followed by a nair or another lazer, both can be dealt with by shielding.
3. You constantly were forced to recover low, which made you choose up-b many times . When you eventually tried to mix up with side b you got punished for not getting the sweet spot. Practice side b recovery, its extremely important as its his fastest way of getting back to the ledge from off stage and you need that mix up.

Honestly biggest thing in this first game was that you consistently lost in neutral, and when you did win in neutral you didn't make big use of your punishes. Lazer spam is great, and as you can go back and see a lot of times you would hit him with many lazers, but you were much too predictable on your follow ups. Look to go for grabs, intentional aerial cross ups, dash dancing (wolfs dash dance is pretty stinkin' good.), things that don't follow the same rhythm of "sh lazer sh lazer sh lazer sh nair shine". It works when it converts, but you need something else in your back pocket. Honestly the Zard didn't do much to earn his punishes, he just waited for you to screw up.

Game 2.
1. At 3:50 you DI in like 4 times in a row and eat the same punish over and over before you DI out and grab ledge. I've got a feeling you're a bit scared to go off stage and will tend to DI for survival a lot more than you should.
2. You tried for side b to ledge a bit more in this game and he called you on it pretty heavily. Gotta gotta gotta mix up your recovery.
3. You clearly are not comfortable in neutral without your lazers. Good players can see through that and work around it. Lazer is great, but it takes forever and is slow as balls. It will not auto win neutral for you, so really start looking to cut down on the frequency of your lazer spam, or at least mix up the waveland direction and times when you choose to lazer.

A huge huge huge part of this game is that you dropped punishes a lot earlier than you should have. It took you til your last stock to finish his first one, despite Zard being close to 100 something before the shine->flash. You were finding openings, but you're dropping your combos. I'm seeing a big commitment to sh up airs, which is great, but sh up airs will keep opponents in the air, and a character who is a bit floatie like Zard can eventually get out of that ****. Find ways of bringing him back down after a few up airs. Personally I look for full hop nairs to drag people closer to the ground and get follow ups that way, or look to finish the up air strings with a more powerful move like flash or fair.

Game 3.
1. Alright 5 seconds in and it just hit me that you're not using lazers to do what they do best.The point of firing a lazer is to generate a response from your opponent (ridiculously over simplified but bear with me). Immediately you drop down to the ground and start firing lazers at sh level, while he is hanging out on the platform above, completely unharmed. He does NOT have to jump in the way of those lazers (even though he does, dumb move on his part), hell he doesn't even have to move and he'll be fine. BECAUSE the projectile is not threatening him whatsoever. Fire the lazers AT him and look to see how he reacts. Some people run away, some people shield, some people jump over, some people fight through them, and good players mix all of those options up. All shooting a lazer into empty space does to you is leave you in a long ass animation and open up the possibility that you'll flub a waveland and be stuck even longer.
2. It doesn't really look like you know what can lead into what and what you should be aiming for. What I'm seeing is that when you get a few lazer confirms, you switch to "combo" mode and are just trying to put out hitboxes wherever he is. That doesn't work for wolf because his moves often times can put him in **** situations and your opponent can easily punish you if you're not picking the right moves. I'm talking about whiffing dash attacks, nair landing right in front of their shield, fsmashing through people etc. I recommend spending some time casually playing against super low level bots and seeing what you can get to connect together. One thing I occasionally do is turn on debug mode and turn on hitboxes/status overlays and see how long I can make a cp orange (stuck in hit stun, unable to act). You'll figure out what stuff ACTUALLY links and what stuff is not so safe.
3. Your recovery once again led to you getting punished super hard. No need to go over that again. HOWEVER, the few times you got Zard off stage, I watched you run back to center stage and just wait to get hit. What da hellz dat about lol? In essence, what you're saying is that even though you're in an advantageous position, you're totally cool with him just getting free stage positioning and his whole stock back no problem. Edge guarding with Wolf is kinda tricky sometimes, but its still pretty damn good. You gotta fail at edge guarding a bit to learn how, but to fail you gotta try.

Those are some of my thoughts on the set, and I've got a ton more of little things but overall those were the big things I wanted to touch on. Let me know if that helps any.
 

Mr. PotatoBread

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
27
Yo I was actually looking for wolf gameplay last night and came across your video before you even posted it here lol. I have some thoughts on it, probably not gonna be organized well but I'll throw down what I think is going on.

Don't be offended on how I word these things, its meant as constructive criticism, not an attack at you.

Game 1
1. You have no dash dance. At all.
2. Your lazer approach is very telegraphed. Every lazer is either followed by a nair or another lazer, both can be dealt with by shielding.
3. You constantly were forced to recover low, which made you choose up-b many times . When you eventually tried to mix up with side b you got punished for not getting the sweet spot. Practice side b recovery, its extremely important as its his fastest way of getting back to the ledge from off stage and you need that mix up.

Honestly biggest thing in this first game was that you consistently lost in neutral, and when you did win in neutral you didn't make big use of your punishes. Lazer spam is great, and as you can go back and see a lot of times you would hit him with many lazers, but you were much too predictable on your follow ups. Look to go for grabs, intentional aerial cross ups, dash dancing (wolfs dash dance is pretty stinkin' good.), things that don't follow the same rhythm of "sh lazer sh lazer sh lazer sh nair shine". It works when it converts, but you need something else in your back pocket. Honestly the Zard didn't do much to earn his punishes, he just waited for you to screw up.

Game 2.
1. At 3:50 you DI in like 4 times in a row and eat the same punish over and over before you DI out and grab ledge. I've got a feeling you're a bit scared to go off stage and will tend to DI for survival a lot more than you should.
2. You tried for side b to ledge a bit more in this game and he called you on it pretty heavily. Gotta gotta gotta mix up your recovery.
3. You clearly are not comfortable in neutral without your lazers. Good players can see through that and work around it. Lazer is great, but it takes forever and is slow as balls. It will not auto win neutral for you, so really start looking to cut down on the frequency of your lazer spam, or at least mix up the waveland direction and times when you choose to lazer.

A huge huge huge part of this game is that you dropped punishes a lot earlier than you should have. It took you til your last stock to finish his first one, despite Zard being close to 100 something before the shine->flash. You were finding openings, but you're dropping your combos. I'm seeing a big commitment to sh up airs, which is great, but sh up airs will keep opponents in the air, and a character who is a bit floatie like Zard can eventually get out of that ****. Find ways of bringing him back down after a few up airs. Personally I look for full hop nairs to drag people closer to the ground and get follow ups that way, or look to finish the up air strings with a more powerful move like flash or fair.

Game 3.
1. Alright 5 seconds in and it just hit me that you're not using lazers to do what they do best.The point of firing a lazer is to generate a response from your opponent (ridiculously over simplified but bear with me). Immediately you drop down to the ground and start firing lazers at sh level, while he is hanging out on the platform above, completely unharmed. He does NOT have to jump in the way of those lazers (even though he does, dumb move on his part), hell he doesn't even have to move and he'll be fine. BECAUSE the projectile is not threatening him whatsoever. Fire the lazers AT him and look to see how he reacts. Some people run away, some people shield, some people jump over, some people fight through them, and good players mix all of those options up. All shooting a lazer into empty space does to you is leave you in a long *** animation and open up the possibility that you'll flub a waveland and be stuck even longer.
2. It doesn't really look like you know what can lead into what and what you should be aiming for. What I'm seeing is that when you get a few lazer confirms, you switch to "combo" mode and are just trying to put out hitboxes wherever he is. That doesn't work for wolf because his moves often times can put him in **** situations and your opponent can easily punish you if you're not picking the right moves. I'm talking about whiffing dash attacks, nair landing right in front of their shield, fsmashing through people etc. I recommend spending some time casually playing against super low level bots and seeing what you can get to connect together. One thing I occasionally do is turn on debug mode and turn on hitboxes/status overlays and see how long I can make a cp orange (stuck in hit stun, unable to act). You'll figure out what stuff ACTUALLY links and what stuff is not so safe.
3. Your recovery once again led to you getting punished super hard. No need to go over that again. HOWEVER, the few times you got Zard off stage, I watched you run back to center stage and just wait to get hit. What da hellz dat about lol? In essence, what you're saying is that even though you're in an advantageous position, you're totally cool with him just getting free stage positioning and his whole stock back no problem. Edge guarding with Wolf is kinda tricky sometimes, but its still pretty damn good. You gotta fail at edge guarding a bit to learn how, but to fail you gotta try.

Those are some of my thoughts on the set, and I've got a ton more of little things but overall those were the big things I wanted to touch on. Let me know if that helps any.
Holy **** I wasn't expecting this much help, thank you very much! I'll get on this ASAP!
 

XF_Awkward

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2014
Messages
28
Location
Southern Indiana
that might be the most autopilot captain falcon I've seen in a long time. I'll try to write up more on what I saw tomorrow, but tldr: dude played mindlessly, you could have stuffed most of his senseless approaches with spaced bairs til he respected your space. Shielding more would have been good because he basically had no idea that Falcon can get teh grabz. Basically he had an obvious "gameplan" in neutral that you really didn't work around but tried to just power through. Honestly, you probably should have lost the first game if he didn't drop multiple stocks himself, but the solutions are simple enough that with some simple prep you really shouldn't have any trouble against this guy again unless he changes his playstyle up.

Game 1:
CF starts out spacing with bair wall, solid falcon tactic, but then switches to just a constant stream of shffl aerials, many of which were not safe options. You get hit with a decent combo after trying to hit with a stray dash attack, that eventually leads to your stock. DA doesn't combo very well at early percents, I don't recommend using it unless you can be certain it will send someone into the air, or else you end up like what happened to you. You lose your stock after shielding a cross up nair that was well spaced and trying to punish it with f-tilt... I don't really know if that was intentional or a flub but 2 things became super obvious to me at that point.

1. You're not comfortable with all your out of shield options.
2. You're trying way too hard to counter attack.

You're being overrun by his approaches and constantly looking for ways to get some kind of hitbox in by jumping at him...We're Wolf man, that **** doesn't really work lol. I really recommend well timed sh retreating bairs, make him come to you and hit him with our best neutral tool, or force him to respect your space long enough to get lazers out to where you can convert to bigger damage.

You lose your second stock because the Falcon SD's, drops off the halo and throws a (surprise surprise) sh knee at you, and you didn't shield it. Don't try to out maneuver him, don't try to do tricks, don't do any of that. Do what works. Hold shield and make him earn his punish.

The rest of game 1 is you just closing out his last stock, and thats fine. But the way you went about playing this game was by trying to outpressure him in neutral/punish game. You don't need to do that. You're putting yourself in risky situations and got punished a fair amount of times. Pay attention to what the other guy is doing, and come up with a plan that beats it. It doesn't have to be technically demanding, it can be super simple and honestly should have been. If Falcon's frame data holds up to Melee's like I believe it does, stomp and nair are both unsafe on shield. Knee and uair can be safe on shield but have to be performed very low to the ground which he was not doing. Space him out with bairs, if that doesn't work shield grab his poor approaches, and then stop up throwing, dthrow or bthrow to put him into a tech chase to lead to dmg and get him offstage.

Will write more tomorrow... practice implementing wd oos into your gameplay as well as formulating strategies in neutral for what you're playing against. It's fun to just freestyle as Wolf and try to come up with crazy combos on the spot, but laying a foundational groundwork is going to do wonders for you man.

(also none of this is really meant to come off as derogatory towards you, just meant to be constructive.)
 

Jake The Preacher

The Amateur Preacher
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
456
Location
Tuscaloosa Alabama
Yeah raw nair shine isn't always the best idea, you got hit a whole lot trying it that first game, but you toned it down so that was very good. Use more lasers, grab more, work on your edgeguards. There were a couple of free edgeguards had, even though edgeguarding Falcon is free itself, but you could've won game two easier if you did so. On characters the weight/falling speed of falcon you should try Bthrow to nair shine, at that percent anything's free. Use more down smash and forward smash, all you gotta do is get Falcon off the stage. And try your best to not recover on stage, since Wolf's got some gross landing lag
 
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Pinnacle

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 20, 2015
Messages
5
Thanks for the replies guys, and don't worry about it. I know I'm not a good player, and that's the reason I'm looking for criticism. As long as the criticism is constructive, I won't take it personally. Thanks for the tips, and I'll try my best to gain a deeper understanding of Wolf.
 
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