The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[Ghostbone]

Why? Any reasoning behind that statement?

Basically being hit by a move that would of killed you, but being randomly saved by a falling block is my main annoyance with the stage.

Random bomb blocks are also a serious issue.

Also it's worth mentioning since people tend to forget, the cars on Onett have set launching power and thus will never kill you unless you're like right next to the blast zone.

 

[WindMajor]

Why? Any reasoning behind that statement?



Yup yup. That would be great! You could stay at my house for that!

Our current stage list is as it follows:

Neutrals:

• Final Destination
  
• Battlefield
  
• Smashville
  
• Yoshi's Island
  
• Lylat Cruise

Counterpicks:

• Brinstar
  
• Rainbow Cruise
  
• Delfino Plaza
  
• Frigate Orpheon
  
• Green Greens
  
• Jungle Japes
  
• PictoChat

• 
  
  

This list is awesome, but where is Pokemon Stadium?

Basically being hit by a move that would of killed you, but being randomly saved by a falling block is my main annoyance with the stage.

Yoshi's Island bro.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yoshi's Island bro.

Yoshi's Island is terrible too >.>

But Green Greens is worse, the randomness plagues a match much more often.
Just play the stage a lot, quite a high amount of matches will have someone be hit into a block that was off-screen, either saving them or possibly killing them if it was a bomb block.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Has anyone ever tried to find a pattern in the timing and layout of the block?

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Basically being hit by a move that would of killed you, but being randomly saved by a falling block is my main annoyance with the stage.

Random bomb blocks are also a serious issue.

Also it's worth mentioning since people tend to forget, the cars on Onett have set launching power and thus will never kill you unless you're like right next to the blast zone.

1.- It could be "considered skillfull" to DI towards the block, and survive that hit, no? Then, it would NOT be random. It would be just an option taken by a player who had the chance to take it. Which is a completely valid strategy/tactic.

2.- While the blocks spawn randomly, they CAN be avoided. Isn't that the point of a counterpick, fight in a stage that is not good for your character?

3.- But they inflict 30-40% of damage, which is a game changing amount. But again, they're avoidable, and the purpose of a counterpick is to "fight against" the Stage AND your opponent as well.

This list is awesome, but where is Pokemon Stadium?

Oops, I forgot it. My bad!

Edit: Done!

I was currently arguing in the Chilean BBR to have PS2 as a counterpick. However, they don't have any love for PS2

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1.- It could be "considered skillfull" to DI towards the block, and survive that hit, no? Then, it would NOT be random. It would be just an option taken by a player who had the chance to take it.

No, it'd still be random because they were given the chance to survive randomly.

2.- While the blocks spawn randomly, they CAN be avoided. Isn't that the point of a counterpick, fight in a stage that is not good for your character?

3.- But they inflict 30-40% of damage, which is a game changing amount. But again, they're avoidable, and the purpose of a counterpick is to "fight against" the Stage AND your opponent as well.

Randomness =/= Disadvantage, though.

 

[WindMajor]

Not if you're able to react to it.

 

[Krystedez]

Green Greens is fine, people just didn't like the falling bomb blocks. I used to practice on this stage a lot back when I did research on it for the BBR, and after learning and practicing how to interact with the stage, I really couldn't find anything wrong with it. People just need to sit down and learn the stage like I did. The bomb blocks aren't that big of a deal.

I don't like the stage because the bomb blocks ARE a big deal when they fall on you from the sky while you're trying to fight your opponent.

No other stage is like Green Greens, where you're practically fighting the stage, not your opponent.

I would however like it to be on during Doubles. That's tactical and fun because you can do so much with more freedom knowing you won't get infinited or anything silly with your partner there.

Green Greens is terrible imo, like worse than all the other potentially legal stages.

Yes... I would like any stage except Green Greens.

No, it'd still be random because they were given the chance to survive randomly.

Yes... this too...

 

[TSM ZeRo]

No, it'd still be random because they were given the chance to survive randomly.



Randomness =/= Disadvantage, though.

1.- Not randomly. You can perfectly see where the blocks are and DI towards them.

2.- Brinstar has a "wall" (if you hit it, you stop completely all the momentum you had from the attack you received) in the little part you can destroy in the middle of the stage. I have been saved by that "part of the stage" A LOT. However, the stage is still legal in most tournaments. Why not Green Greens?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not if you're expecting the bomb blocks to come, which you should be.

I guess this is as true as YI:B is legal for similar reasons.

Hmmm... What about bomb blocks, though?

 

[Ghostbone]

1.- It could be "considered skillfull" to DI towards the block, and survive that hit, no? Then, it would NOT be random. It would be just an option taken by a player who had the chance to take it. Which is a completely valid strategy/tactic.

2.- While the blocks spawn randomly, they CAN be avoided. Isn't that the point of a counterpick, fight in a stage that is not good for your character?

3.- But they inflict 30-40% of damage, which is a game changing amount. But again, they're avoidable, and the purpose of a counterpick is to "fight against" the Stage AND your opponent as well.

Of course you can DI towards where the blocks might fall, but that's just it, they might fall, or they might not, it's random, and often DIing that way is not optimal.

The blocks aren't a problem once they've stopped falling imo really, it's just when they're falling, and not on screen.

And the point of a counter-pick isn't to fight against the stage, you fight against the stage on every stage. Every match is P+S vs P+S, and any stage where the S portion is significantly random should be bad, as it undermines the P aspect, and randomly favours one player.

 

[Krystedez]

Twinkie, why should I have to play on a stage where I need to expect a hitbox to drop between 3 units of space on me randomly while I'm fighting... That's just silly :_;

Also I agree with what ghostbone, basically what I just said.

 

[popsofctown]

Secretly, I would love Battlefield, Smashville, and no other stages.

 

[Krystedez]

Actually same here pops, it's either all or nothing. I want BF + SV, or every stage except Green Greens.

Spoiler

omg Hanenbow <3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I want Mario Bros. to be legal

 

[WindMajor]

Twinkie, why should I have to play on a stage where I need to expect a hitbox to drop between 3 units of space on me randomly while I'm fighting... That's just silly :_;

Also I agree with what ghostbone, basically what I just said.

You lost me at 3 units of space.

 

[popsofctown]

Actually same here pops, it's either all or nothing. I want BF + SV, or every stage except Green Greens.

Spoiler

omg Hanenbow <3

I totally agree. I want the factory default custom stages too though

 

[Ghostbone]

Secretly, I would love Battlefield, Smashville, and no other stages.

Add FD, PS2 and Delfino to that, and I'd agree.

Anything without Halberd is fine really, hate that stage with a passion

 

[TSM ZeRo]

Of course you can DI towards where the blocks might fall, but that's just it, they might fall, or they might not, it's random, and often DIing that way is not optimal.

The blocks aren't a problem once they've stopped falling imo really, it's just when they're falling, and not on screen.

And the point of a counter-pick isn't to fight against the stage, you fight against the stage on every stage. Every match is P+S vs P+S, and any stage where the S portion is significantly random should be bad, as it undermines the P aspect, and randomly favours one player.

1.- That would be the risk of the player fom choosing that strategy/tactic then.

2.- That would be considered a stage hazard. Just like Brinstar's Lava, or Pictochat's Spikes/different hazards.

3.- You're true with the first line. However, the point of a counterpick is to "Gain advantage in the match up thanks to the Stage", this is why Diddy Kong chooses Final Destination against Meta Knight, because he has the advantage to have more space to maneuver and perform his different combos, and camp more easily which in the end, gives him an advantage against Meta Knight (or any character in which that stage is not good for him/her). Why would King DeDeDe counterpick Donkey Kong to Green Greens? Because he could get an easy Infinite Grab if he grabs Donkey Kong towards any Wall. Which in the end, the stage is giving King DeDeDe an advantage.

The whole point of a counterpick is to gain an advantage over your opponent. Otherwise, we should all agree on 1 stage and only play on that stage, no? That's why we ban a stage, so we don't get "Hard counterpicked", or strike neutrals, in the case of a neutral stage being bad for our character (Yoshi's Island, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, etc).

 

[Krystedez]

Not if you're able to react to it.

You lost me at 3 units of space.

the blocks fall either randomly or uniformly (randomly I bet...) into the space or gap between platforms.

They all fall within that space which is 3 units of space measured by "kirby star blocks"

 

[popsofctown]

Delfino is a cool stage.

They don't let us American kids play on PS2 so I dunno what that's like.


EDIT: As a Kirby enthusiast, I accept "3 units of space" as being a valid distance on a Kirby themed stage.

 

[Krystedez]

I totally agree. I want the factory default custom stages too though

I want factory default and players to come with SD cards holding their special custom stage, that can be submitted to the TO prior to the tournament's day for approval.

In fact, can we discuss that? Approval of custom stages by TO?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Custom stages don't work unless they are revealed long before the tournament takes place, otherwise players can't learn them.

 

[Ghostbone]

1.- That would be the risk of the player fom choosing that strategy/tactic then.

2.- That would be considered a stage hazard. Just like Brinstar's Lava, or Pictochat's Spikes/different hazards.

3.- You're true with the first line. However, the point of a counterpick is to "Gain advantage in the match up thanks to the Stage", this is why Diddy Kong chooses Final Destination against Meta Knight, because he has the advantage to have more space to maneuver and combo, which in the end, gives him an advantage. Why would King DeDeDe counterpick Donkey Kong to Green Greens? Because he could get an easy Infinite Grab if he grabs Donkey Kong towards any Wall. Which in the end, the stage is giving King DeDeDe an advantage.

The whole point of a counterpick is to gain an advantage over your opponent. Otherwise, we should all agree on 1 stage and only play on that stage, no? That's why we ban a stage, so we don't get "Hard counterpicked", or strike neutrals, in the case of a neutral stage being bad for our character (Yoshi's Island, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, etc).

1. I guess it could be considered a risk similar to G&W's hammer or something, but idk I just don't see it as fair at all.

2. Yea but there's a large difference between a random game changing hazard and a predictable game changing hazard.

3. Mmm, counter-picks are supposed to be a stage that allows either your character to better apply their strengths and cover up your weaknesses (like Diddy on FD), or a stage that can be used to exploit your opponent's weaknesses, and nullify their strengths (like counter-picking Snake to Brinstar)
Your analogy with DK and D3 isn't really valid, D3 can infinite DK in a variety of ways anyway, DK would probably be the one counter-picking to Green Greens if anything.
Anyway, I'm fine with a stage providing advantages to certain characters, but I'm not fine with a stage randomly favouring a player. There's a difference.

Edit: The official unit of space in smash is Jigglypuff lengths iirc lol.
So I guess the blocks together would take up a total of 1.5 Jigglypuff lengths or something?

 

[Krystedez]

Oh, but what if the custom stage is uploaded before the tournament starts like 4 weeks in advance?

That way they can be tested and proven if broken or not with video evidence (or obvious, just looking at it, but the obvious factor should be taken care of by the TO)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I still don't like the idea of having to play on a stage without having LOTS of time to practice on it in tournament :/

 

[popsofctown]

I want factory default and players to come with SD cards holding their special custom stage, that can be submitted to the TO prior to the tournament's day for approval.

In fact, can we discuss that? Approval of custom stages by TO?

We should have made tons of official custom stages shortly after the game came out, so we'd have a diverse group of stages with a feel like Smashville, FD, Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium's default transformation, etc. I find it a tragedy that no such thing happened.

Bringing a custom stage no one has gotten a chance to practice on is problematic, unless you're talking about every single person getting their own ninja secret counterpick stage. That sounds neat.

ninja'ed....


12 weeks GT?

 

[Krystedez]

Yea, a secret counterpick stage, but... in an essence, it would be broken to leave it secret to the TO, so thats why I said upload it to the TO's tourney page for approval.

Players can then be stamped with a "custom" badge on the tournament operator pages as to warn people, and the stage's "size" should always be known. like if they used "large" or "medium", or "small"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can't say how long it'd take me to get used to a stage, really.

 

[Krystedez]

I can't say how long it'd take me to get used to a stage, really.

in that case, try some out, make your own, and have friends do the same for you to test.

I will do this with my close circle of friends during break and then submit them to people willing to do this if possible.

I say, if the custom stage feature is in, I am in agreement, we shoulda used it long ago, instead of relying on what the game was already packed with. I mean, it's hard to miss obviously broken custom stages.

 

[Ghostbone]

I say, if the custom stage feature is in, I am in agreement, we shoulda used it long ago, instead of relying on what the game was already packed with. I mean, it's hard to miss obviously broken custom stages.

It's a shame custom stages haven't become the norm, hopefully the smash community can be more prepared for the next smash in terms of rulesets, including things like possible custom stages, stage legality, character legality, match mode (e.g. How many stocks, timer)

 

[TSM ZeRo]

1. I guess it could be considered a risk similar to G&W's hammer or something, but idk I just don't see it as fair at all.

2. Yea but there's a large difference between a random game changing hazard and a predictable game changing hazard.

3. Mmm, counter-picks are supposed to be a stage that allows either your character to better apply their strengths and cover up your weaknesses (like Diddy on FD), or a stage that can be used to exploit your opponent's weaknesses, and nullify their strengths (like counter-picking Snake to Brinstar)
Your analogy with DK and D3 isn't really valid, D3 can infinite DK in a variety of ways anyway, DK would probably be the one counter-picking to Green Greens if anything.
Anyway, I'm fine with a stage providing advantages to certain characters, but I'm not fine with a stage randomly favouring a player. There's a difference.

Edit: The official unit of space in smash is Jigglypuff lengths iirc lol.
So I guess the blocks together would take up a total of 1.5 Jigglypuff lengths or something?

1.- Why? Both things are random, and you can't control them. They're mechanics of the game, that a player can either use, or not use. That's a valid option/tactic from the player.

2.- You can see where the blocks are, or avoid them competely (not jumping when the wall is missing some blocks). So they're an avoidable game changing hazard.

3.- We can agree on the first point. Second point: Not necesarily. Let's say that the "Standing Infinite CG is banned" but not a wall infinite, so it could be a King DeDeDe's counterpick to "abuse that rule hole". But this is completely irrevelant lol.

4.- The stage doesn't randomly favours a player, you can avoid the bomb blocks, or control the middle of the stage to get control of the apples. Both things are not random, and are things that CAN be controlled by the player. While, the chance of a bomb block falling over your head, is in fact, random, the option of not jumping while the wall is missing blocks, is not. So it's competely avoidable, and not random up to some extent.

 

[popsofctown]

in that case, try some out, make your own, and have friends do the same for you to test.

I will do this with my close circle of friends during break and then submit them to people willing to do this if possible.

I say, if the custom stage feature is in, I am in agreement, we shoulda used it long ago, instead of relying on what the game was already packed with. I mean, it's hard to miss obviously broken custom stages.

Doubling the number of neutrals is what would interest me the most.

 

[Krystedez]

Omg yes, pops. I didn't think of this earlier, but I think even OS had made some interesting neutral stages that could have been submitted. (I THINK it was OS)... I wonder what happened to that idea or approval?

 

[popsofctown]

It's a shame custom stages haven't become the norm, hopefully the smash community can be more prepared for the next smash in terms of rulesets, including things like possible custom stages, stage legality, character legality, match mode (e.g. How many stocks, timer)

Definitely.

My optimal vision is that either 6 months or a year is considered "beta testing". Everyone is warned not to get too attached to their characters or stages, all sorts of things are legal, everything is just being tested for constructivist, surgical ruleset changes.

Then after that, a final stage list is picked. No jerking people around anymore. Overpowered and underpowered characters get a handicap %. Those are frozen, they don't change ever again.

I might dream too big though.


EDIT: I'm an outsider, so I don't know. It's quite a shame though.

 

[Ghostbone]

1.- Why? Both things are random, and you can't control them. They're mechanics of the game, that a player can either use, or not use. That's a valid option/tactic from the player.

2.- You can see where the blocks are, or avoid them competely (not jump when the wall is missing some blocks). So they're an avoidable game changing hazard.

3.- We can agree on the first point. Second point: Not necesarily. Let's say that the "Standing Infinite CG is banned" but not a wall infinite, so it could be a King DeDeDe's counterpick. But this is completely irrevelant lol.

4.- The doesn't randomly favours a player, you can avoid the bomb blocks, or control the middle of the stage to get control of the apples. Both things are not random. While, the chance of a bomb block falling over your head, is random, the option of not jumpin while the wall is missing blocks, is not. So it's competely avoidable, and not random up to some extent.

1. I'm going to have to think over that.

2. You often can't see them as they're off-screen, be it either to the left or right, or above.

3. Banning the standing infinite is pointless, D3 can just short-step chain-grab DK, and if you make a rule against that, he can do the dash dance thing, it just becomes to complicated.

4. It does randomly favour a player, you don't know when they'll fall, or if they'll be a regular or bomb block. The apples aren't really a problem, besides for the rare exploding apple (which is entirely random), so I don't really care about them.

The problem isn't necessarily trying to jump over them to attack the opponent, it's when you're hit and a block can randomly get in your way.

 

[WindMajor]

the blocks fall either randomly or uniformly (randomly I bet...) into the space or gap between platforms.

They all fall within that space which is 3 units of space measured by "kirby star blocks"

Oh, lol. Why didn't you just say that then?

Twinkie, why should I have to play on a stage where I need to expect a hitbox to drop between 3 units of space on me randomly while I'm fighting... That's just silly :_;

I don't see how it's silly. It's a hazard. They fall "randomly", but bomb blocks fall at a slow but steady pace, independent of the players (they don't follow you around). Even if the bomb blocks don't fall 100% predictably, they fall within a groove that's not that hard to estimate, and don't move anywhere else other than those 3 horizontal units of space. That means that it's reasonable to expect players to be more careful around certain areas, more than others. They are also very strange for hazards considering that they only attack you on contact if you touch them from below, otherwise, they only attack you when you when attacked. I proved that every character is capable of safely attacking the bombs in that research, which is a good thing, because it means that every character is capable of incorporating a stage hazard into their strategy, instead of having others being left in the dark. Jumping through them safely should be like second nature to someone who is familiar with the stage, as well as fighting around/with them. They'll get in the way of regular combat, yes, but so does every hazard.

 

[Ghostbone]

Definitely.

My optimal vision is that either 6 months or a year is considered "beta testing". Everyone is warned not to get too attached to their characters or stages, all sorts of things are legal, everything is just being tested for constructivist, surgical ruleset changes.

Then after that, a final stage list is picked. No jerking people around anymore. Overpowered and underpowered characters get a handicap %. Those are frozen, they don't change ever again.

I might dream too big though.


EDIT: I'm an outsider, so I don't know. It's quite a shame though.

Handicapping characters seems a bit silly >.>

Basically, after what's happened with Brawl and MK, it's clear the community needs to define before the game comes out what would make a broken character, so we have something we can follow.

With stages, everything should start out legal, and I mean everything. Though I don't see the temple equivalent lasting long.
But I don't want a possible stage like Corneria being banned because it was broken in past games, when it could be fine in the new game's metagame.


With items, if they're found to have random spawn points, that's basically an instant ban there.

The stock count and timer should be flexible, and make sense. (unlike Brawl's current timer, which is 2 2/3 minutes per stock >.>)

Surgical rules should be avoided as much as possible, excluding whatever equivalent of IDC that might show up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This x 10000000000000

 

[TSM ZeRo]

1. I'm going to have to think over that.

2. You often can't see them as they're off-screen, be it either to the left or right, or above.

3. Banning the standing infinite is pointless, D3 can just short-step chain-grab DK, and if you make a rule against that, he can do the dash dance thing, it just becomes to complicated.

4. It does randomly favour a player, you don't know when they'll fall, or if they'll be a regular or bomb block. The apples aren't really a problem, besides for the rare exploding apple (which is entirely random), so I don't really care about them.

The problem isn't necessarily trying to jump over them to attack the opponent, it's when you're hit and a block can randomly get in your way.

1.- Sure.

2.- I just tested this, "not entirely true". If you and your opponent are on diferent sides of the stage (Left end, and right end) you can see the WHOLE stage, and the walls. If both of them are either on the left or the right, the wall on the other side of the stage(left or right) can't be seen.

3.- Yeah, it gets complicated. We should just leave the D3 example alone, since it's not the main topic of the discussion over Green Greens. Shall we?

4.- As I said, you can just be careful of not crossing when the wall is not finished. When you're close to a wall, you can perfectly see above the wall, and avoid the block bombs.

5.- I tested this. If you hit someone and send them towards a Wall, either a bomb block or normal block, nothing happens. The bomb blocks DO not explode.

Note: However, if a bomb block falls over your head on it's way to the wall, it explodes immediatly.

I'm gonna go to sleep now (or very soon), if I don't answer back it's because of that lol.