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The Uniqueness Tier List: Captain Falcon, Robin, Lucina, Shulk, and Meta-Knight

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BluePikmin11

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Alright, so how should we plan retros, will we do one retro a day? Or will we let people do their analysis on any retro for the whole week?

I have a list of retros we could do possibly, but I feel no one will be interested on some of them:
1. Mach Rider
2. Urban Champion
3. Takamaru
4. Bubbles
5. Donbe and Hikari
6. Fighter Hayabusa
7. Mike Jones
8. Sukapon
9. Prince Sable
10. Muddy Mole
11. Lip

If possible, we could include historical characters too:
12. Daitouryou
13. Harry
14. Diskun

I wanna do at least two retros a day for the next week.
 

Louie G.

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Takamaru, Lip, Mach Rider, and Muddy Mole are definites.
We can try to discuss two a day though, that may work really well.
 

BluePikmin11

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Let's try to have a major retro each day, that way everyone is at least analyzing each day.
Here's the plan I guess:
Day 1: Takamaru and Urban Champion
Day 2: Mach Rider and Bubbles
Day 3: Fighter Hayabasa and Duck Hunt Dog
Day 4: Sukapon and Mike Jones
Day 5: Prince Sable and Muddy Mole
Day 6: Lip and Harry
Day 7: Daitouryou and Diskun
If everyone is willing to research and take their time on the analysis, it would be greatly appreciated. :)
 
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Louie G.

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I feel like we should do Takamaru, Mach Rider, Lip, and Muddy Mole within the first four days of analysis.
Since they are the Big 4 Retros in my eyes.
 

BluePikmin11

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I'll agree with that, I just hope no one loses interest easily when we get to retro week.
What do you have planned for the next week after that?
Mario week? (But personally I don't think we should do it since Mario characters are done with 5 characters)
Wanna do Zelda week next?
 

Louie G.

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I'll agree with that, I just hope no one loses interest easily when we get to retro week.
What do you have planned for the next week after that?
Mario week? (But personally I don't think we should do it since Mario characters are done with 5 characters)
Wanna do Zelda week next?
Pokémon week for sure.
Can't wait to hear what people have to say about Zoroark, Genesect, and Meowth.
Hawlucha day could be fun.
 

Cpt.

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Alright I've done some thinking. He could easily be made to be a very unique character, but I think that it is more likely that Sakurai would borrow some ideas from Meta Knight and Charizard so I'll give Ridley a B+.
 

ToothiestAura

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Too late to rate Ridley?
I'll do it anyway.
Ridley gets a B+ form me.
[collapse=Reasoning]
Ridley has the potential to be an aerial Heavy-weight and while that concept is not very unique as we have Charizard and Dedede that are also multi-jump heavyweights and Charizard also has a glide. However, Charizard and Dededearen't monsters in the air. Ridley would be, or rather should be. Ridley also has the potential to be a grapple-based character and could bring the first aerial grab to Smash. He also has the potential to have a good number of projectiles, which wouldn't be terribly unique for a heavyweight (At least, conceptually. K. Rool seems like he would be heavily projectile based). It however, would pair uniquely with an aerial/grapple based character.
[/collapse]
 

Louie G.

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I would personally put Ridley in A-.
The whole fly mechanic and aerial grabs make it hard to imagine a Ridley that isn't unique.
Although I agree he may take some pointers from Meta Knight and Charizard.
 
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FirstBlade

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I give Ridley a B+.

Reasoning: What sets Ridley apart could be command grabs similar to what is seen in Other M and being an aerial-centric heavyweight. Specific emphasis on the aerial centric part. His moveset should literally resolve around his aerial features unlike Peach and Jigglypuff. This is what I think would really make the character unique. I think Ridley should have 2 jumps with the 3rd being a short flying mode of sorts, that lasts for a couple seconds. This would make it easier for the other suggested things like chargeable aerials and aerial grabs to be carried out in easy sequence (in a vein similar to Peach's floating). Unlike a normal heavyweight, he should have very fast air speed but of course should be sluggish on the ground for balancing purposes (and it does fit the character rather well). Tail attacks and plasma balls could also be quite unique but when it comes to body slams and his reflector seen in Other M...meh. This is where Ridley loses some points from me.

EDIT: Darn, ninja'd by Toothiest Aura
 
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Louie G.

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I do think this will be very difficult to do 14 analysis in a week. Do you guys think you are really ready for this? :evil:
If we do happen to run into time constraints, then we can always extend the week.
I disagree with Ridley's current scores. Most people are saying B+ even though they mentioned some really unique abilities.
Take into account Ridley's flight abilities and such, instead of giving him a B+ because he could share one or two moves with Meta Knight or Charizard.
 
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BluePikmin11

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I say we PM certain people to help us with our analyses, like with Arcadenik since I think he has good knowledge of the Duck Hunt Dog.
I think I'll go prepare my analyses for Harry and Prince Sable right now.
 

Louie G.

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I say we PM certain people to help us with our analyses, like with Arcadenik since I think he has good knowledge of the Duck Hunt Dog.
I think I'll go prepare my analyses for Harry and Prince Sable right now.
I was thinking that, but I'll probably start to tag notable members when we're doing a character that they may have interesting opinions on.
I'm probably going to tag Xenoblaze when we do Takamaru, for example. Which is very soon.
 

Bowserlick

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Ridley
(I am using BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Ridley could be an aerial focused heavy-weight with a focus on aerial domination. He might be slow and slightly unwieldy on the ground. In order to balance him and highlight his aerial strengths some people have suggested a Fly mode. I propose Ridley having one jump only and an Up B that shoots him into the air and gives him three more jumps. Ridley would probably have access to projectiles and perhaps a command grab. Chargeable aerials is another suggestion to showcase his strength in the air.
2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
Ridley would be fulfilling an unexplored niche more than adding anything revolutionary in terms of mechanics or specials (unless he does come with a Fly mode).
3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
An aerial dominant super-heavyweight has not been fully explored.

3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own.
Ridley would be adding another super-heavyweight to the roster (at least one is added each game). But he would also be a super-heavy weight not quite done yet. DK is a powerhouse with many spikes at his disposal, Bowser is a tank designed to trade punches with opponents, and King DeDeDe uses long range, a long reaching grab, and a projectile to be a more ranged fighter. So Ridley would fill the super heavyweight quota while adding a different take on the concept.

4. Is the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Flying, shooting balls of plasma and beams, as well as bringing a fierce collection of savage attacks could be very entertaining.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Ridley is very distinct and brings a feral style to the game. Bowser seems to be going in the direction of a wrestler/bully and Wolf while uses an animilistic style has a gentleman air to him.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Ridley does fit well enough, but it would take creativity to balance him fairly.

Rating out of Ten (Uniqueness): 7.5 - 8

Ridley would offer a new style which heavyweights have not claimed yet. He would also bring plasma, a harpoon tail, claws and teeth into the battle. While there would be some overlap with Charizard, his body shape is quite different.
MOVESET
Ridley weighs about as much as King DeDeDe. He is slightly below average on the ground in speed, but has quick dodges. His air speed and air dodge are among the best. This coupled with his specialized Up B make him a force. He also has ways to rack up damage from all areas on the battlefield. But Ridley, without his Flight mode, only has one jump. He really needs to use his wings to take advantage of the air.

Mechanics: Crawl, Glide
Built in Disadvantage: One jump without using Flight Mode

A: Slash with a claw
A,A: Slash with a claw, then the other claw
A,A,A: Slash with a claw, then the other claw, then raises both claws above his head and smashes both into the floor. Rakes them backwards.

Toward A: Lashes out with his pointed tail. Good range, but one must be precise to make the best use of it.
Down A: While crouched, Ridley swipes one extended arm forward with outstretched claws. If sweet-spotted, the attack becomes a grab where upon Ridley will clutch the leg (or hover body in the case of R.O.B) and flip them high into the air.
Up A: Ridley curves his neck backwards while emitting fire in a smoldering arch similar to Samus's Up Smash.

Down Smash: Ridley rotates his body while emitting a stream of plasma fire at the ground. It leaves a circle of fire for a couple seconds that could damage others, but not Ridley (due to his scales we will say).
Up Smash: Fires a plasma sphere into the sky (the size and ascension of the attack depends on the charged power)
Forward Smash: Ridley opens his jaws. The orange buildup of fire in his throat can be seen. He lunges forward with a bite which causes an explosion upon impact.

Dash A: Ridley flaps his wings for a burst of speed and swings both his claws out before delivering a bite.

Aerials

Neutral Aerial: Snaps his jaws in front of him, then behind, then in front again in rapid succession. Made possible by this long neck.
Forward Aerial: Curves his neck back in an S shape, then lunges forward with a bite. Can be charged.
Back Aerial: A whip like attack with his tail. Good range with sweet-spot on tip.
Up Aerial: Slashes both claws upwards. When the claws from either hand clash at the apex, a fountain of sparks shoots upwards.
Down Aerial: Maneuvers his tail like a whip behind him before lashing it straight down, the spine stiffening. Great in the air, but the tail can be lodged in the floor if it connects with the ground.

Specials

B Plasma Shot: Fires a spread burst of three fire balls. No knockback or stun. However, they do slight splash damage when they collide with part of the stage resulting in a little stun and knockback. Angled down if Ridley is in the air and angled in straight cone pattern if on the ground.

B Plasma Beam (charged): Ridley can charge the shot into a beam. However, it cannot be stored. The beam shoots straight if on the ground and diagonal in the air. Does very good damage, but only has knockback and stun around Ridley's mouth (which would knock the victim into the rest of the attack).

Down B WingSpan: Ridley opens his wings. These are the effects.
•If on the ground, anyone that rolls past Ridley with his wings spread, hits the wing, has their momentum canceled and suffers stun.
•In the air, Ridley can use this move to cancel his momentum. Also, sends air dodgers into a helpless state.
•In a glide, Ridley can use this move to cancel his glide and create a shockwave that travels and does knockback depending on the duration of the glide.

Up B Fly Mode: Launches Ridley into the air a good vertical distance with super armor. He then gains three jumps. Cannot be used again until he hits the ground.

Toward B Dive Bomb (On the Ground): Ridley leaps high into the air and then dive bombs in a diagonal fashion either left or right until he smashes into the floor. Good knockback, but has downtime as Ridley as to recuperate from launching himself into the ground.

Toward B Dive Bomb (In the Air): Ridley automatically enters a dive bomb either left or right until he hits the floor.

Throws

Pummel: Ridley bites his victim.
Toward and Back Throw: Ridley jumps up, impales his victim with his tail, and drags them in the direction pressed. This direction can be changed midway in the animation. The opponent pops up and away afterwards. Good damage-racker.
Up Throw: Ridley flies up and off the screen with opponent. He then blocks the camera briefly as he flies toward the stage (in the direction the players are looking at the TV) and slams the victim into the spot he was grabbed.
Down Throw: Leaps on top of the opponent causing them to smash to the ground. Then springs upwards into the air. Does not use a jump.
 
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Louie G.

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Ridley's day has come to a close.
Many said that Ridley deserved a B-B+, but reading the long expatiations that people gave about Ridley I feel that a B rank doesn't do him justice.
So Ridley is getting an A due to the possible fly mechanics and such that he can possess.

Today we will rate the lovable Samurai, Takamaru. He has a lot of unique abilities, but are they enough to cover up the fact that Takamaru wields a sword like many other Smashers?
We will also be discussing Urban Champion, from none other than Urban Champion. Does he have what it takes to get a good ranking? Or are his punches too bland?

Tagging @ FlareHabanero FlareHabanero to talk about Takamaru.
 

BluePikmin11

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Many people say he should he should be a quick attacker whom relies on precision and control to best use Takamaru.
His fireballs and cloak do give him interesting options and way Takamaru can be unpredictable.
 

Depressed Gengar

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Urban Champ could technically wind up as Little Mac, since he could use punches only. Because of this, I'd give him whatever I gave Mac (which I forgot).
Now, going based off of what I know of Takamaru, while I suppose he would be unique, I don't think he offers that much (save his invisibility.) I'd give him a B- or a B.
 

Louie G.

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For Urban Champ, I would give him much less than Mac.
Mac has his star system, and multiple games to take pointers from.
Urban Champion is from a one-shot game where all you do is punch.
I'd give him a C- AT BEST. He brings nothing to the table at all, and the game isn't even that good.
 

Oniric Spriter

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Not really expecting to see Urban Champion any time soon. As for Takamaru I would be glad to see that dude.
 

BluePikmin11

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Urban Champion has manholes, flower pots, and a possible fire hydrant that could be used for a recovery, there are some available options.

Here are some of the possibilities for his moveset:
Neutral-B: Heavy Punch: Urban Champion charges up a big punch to do big damage to the opponent. Unlike DK's Giant Punch, this punch requires you to hold the button to get at full charge.
Side-B: Flower Pot Throw: Urban Champion throws off a simple flower pot., the pot does pretty good knockback overall. The pot also breaks into many broken pieces that can be used to throw at opponents.
Up-B: Fire Hydrant: Urban Champion flicks off the hydrant lid to spout out water that makes the player glide for a few seconds, similar to R.O.B.'s. It also pushes opponents just like Mario's F.L.U.D.D.
Down-B: Manhole: Urban Champion steps on the ground to bring out a man hole to his hand. This can be used as a reflector, and if close to the opponent, you can stun the opponent for a long while so you are able to do the Heavy Punch.

Urban Champion Playstyle:
Urban Champion is basically a pretty slow average middleweight character, but there are advantages to him. Firstly he is accompanied by his manhole that can reflect projectiles and stun opponents if near. His flower pots that break into itty bit projectiles can be used to annoy the opponent, in a similar manner of Diddy Kong. His fire hydrant can also be used to push down opponents of the stage, making it a pretty safe move to have while recovering. Using these special moves can help you track and hit down your opponents real well.
 

Louie G.

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As for Takamaru, he wields a sword, which at first doesn't look like anything new, but we haven't had a samurai yet or someone who can turn invisible.
Personally I've always wanted a Smash character that could turn invisible.
 

Bowserlick

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In Urban Champion, the goal is to push the opponent into an open manhole using a light and heavy punch. In Smash, opponents are hit off the screen after building up a damage percentage. So in some ways Smash has borrowed the style of winning from Urban Champion.

But Urban Champion only punches. Perhaps he could use a flower pot as a weapon; flower pots fall from a building in the game. But this seems like the extent of his potential. Starfox and Captain drew inspiration from their vehicles, but Urban Champion simply does not have much to draw from. The game is very simple.

Uniqueness Rating: 1
 

BluePikmin11

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I would give him a D+, as his moveset is pretty limited, but a street-style fighter would defintely be interesting. I think it could be alot of fun, someone mention that a police car could be his Final Smash, I personally think it would be hilarious. xD
 

FlareHabanero

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My input on the character is that I would like to see the character involve speed. Something along the lines of high dashing speed, high falling speed, and fast attacks. But at the same time I kind of want to see the character have a bit of a learning curve, a character that while has incredibly fatal combo abilities is hard to master. Hence why I think the character would involve an input feature, where attacks involve multiple inputs that can flow into each other that causes a bit of a steep learning curve but at the same time can lead to ruthless onslaughts.
 

FirstBlade

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Takamaru
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Takamaru has potential to be a superfast sword user that can rival Marth with speedy attacks, but with a twist. Takamaru could have attacks that "flow" into each other (courtesy of Xenoblaze) with certain button inputs. This of course would make him hard to master due to the timing and precision needed for this, but extremely rewarding in the combos the player is able to pull off. I can also imagine him being a sort of mixed bag, in which he can attack from afar with projectiles and simply rush in for close combat whenever he feels like. This alone, can make him very unpredictable and tricky to a player giving him potential as one of Smash's only "mixup" archetype. As a samurai, Takamaru should have speedy everything: grabs, aerials and smashes included. For balancing, I think he should be more on the lighter side, so that while fast, he is relatively easy to KO.
2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
The only other superfast sword user is Marth, but there is one crucial difference between Marth and Takamaru. Projectiles.
3. Has the concept of the character been done before?

In a sense. A speedy sword user has been done before.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
The flow mechanic has potential to be very unique considering there would be no other character that requires as much precision and timing as Takamaru. Takamaru also has access to many projectiles and tools besides his katana. These include kunai, shuriken, fireballs, an invisibility cloak, and a powerful electric type move called Inazuma Lightning. Though not entirely canon, it is possible that Sakurai could draw some weapons from Takamaru's Ninja Castle from Nintendoland such as the clay bomb though this is probably not likely. Takamaru's name is also derived from falcon...make of this what you must.
4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
With the learning curve on Takamaru, it might be more frustrating than fun, but like Olimar, once people get the hang of him he could be very fun to play as. In fact, even with the learning curve; shuriken, invisibility and lightning would be very entertaining.
5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Depends. While there is no Japanese or samurai inspired character in the game whether Sakurai uses the Samurai Warriors model or gives him a complete makeover is up in the air. There are many directions that could be taken with a redesign ranging from something more realistic like the Samurai Warriors interpretation to the more classic design to something entirely new, possibly something inspired by Edo period Japanese watercolor art.
6. Does it fit the character well enough?

The fast playstyle and precision needed for attacks just screams samurai. As does the projectiles. Takamaru used invisibility, fire and lightning magic in his own game so whether it is associated with samurais or not, it fits him.

Uniqueness rating: B-. A flow mechanic and mixup type character would certainly be unique for Smash 4 and his projectiles, magic and invisibility can all be quite unique but it seems possible that Takamaru could have some generic sword attacks for his normals and a speedy sword user has technically been done before.
 
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Bowserlick

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Takamaru
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Takamaru's diversity might have to come across in his specials. He would add to the sword-user cast. So his special options should be explored. Shurikens, fireballs, invisibility and sandals that allow him to run across water are items in his inventory. B would probably be a projectile. Side B could use his sandals to walk in air, back and forth for a limited time with the ability to press A for a sword strike. Down B can use the cloak of invisibility to turn him invisible until he performs an attack. Up B can use his Windmill Sword to travel across the stage. Perhaps he can do multiple front flips while spinning his sword in a protective blur around his body with the ability to deflect projectiles. I would also suggest being able to charge his smashes longer than other smashes to take more advantage of his invisibility. Or on the flip side, allowing Takamaru a shorter charge time on Smashes for full power.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Invisibility is the standout move that has not been fully explored. Otherwise, his specials may not be completely
ground-breaking.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
He is a sword character. But one that could rely on various stealth options to approach before laying into an enemy with his blade.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
Relying on stealth for a sword character would be a slightly different take. And tweaks on the sword method of attacking such as longer smashes can help him stand out. The samurai flavor might also be enough for people to perceive a difference even if his sword strikes were similar in look.

4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Invisibility might be entertaining, but it also can be a frustrating or near useless ability.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
Visually, Takamaru has his samurai appearance. In that regard, he is different.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
I expect Sakurai to upgrade his design. So there might be more freedom in fitting abilities to the upgraded Takamaru as done with Pit.

Uniqueness Rating: 5
Besides invisbility I am not sure if Takamaru has enough to break the sword character redundancy problem. His design is his real saving grace in looking different enough. But dig a little deeper and he may seem like a stagnant fighter.
 
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ToothiestAura

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Time to do some rating, I suppose.

Takamaru: C+

From what I've seen here and in the Takamaru topic, he has some unique elements at his command: shuriken, fire & lightning magic, invisibility and some special sword techniques. However, Takamaru is a swordsman and will likely suffer with the same problems his fellow swordsman do: unoriginal/uninspired A moves. While he likely won't be a clone, his moves will have unique properties and visual flair, it may not be enough to truly make him unique. I do feel, on the other hand, that his visual flair has strong potential.


Urban Champion: D

Urban Champion comes from a game that involves only punching. Stretching to the utmost of his utility he can use manholes, manhole covers, flowerpots, fire hydrants and, heaven forbid, kicks. While there is something that can be scrapped together to make a character with unique specials, this character is not likely to have anything in terms of original A moves. This character would likely end up as a clone or a truly uninspired character.

A clone of Mac seems his best bet for getting in the game.
 
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Cpt.

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Takamaru: He is more on the unique side because he is a different type of swordsman than what we already have (I'm thinking on Uchigatana to a Short Sword Dark Souls style). His B moves are also different enough from Link's to separate the two, though I image his fireballs to be like Mario's and his up B sounds like Ike's so he is not so original.

I can see Takamaru going as high as a C+.
 

Louie G.

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I would give Takamaru a B, personally.
He may wield a sword, but he possesses a samurai sword style not yet seen, and powers of invisibility and the like. And @ FlareHabanero FlareHabanero had a great idea about a fast combo heavy character.
 

Cpt.

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I would give Takamaru a B, personally.
He may wield a sword, but he possesses a samurai sword style not yet seen, and powers of invisibility and the like. And @ FlareHabanero FlareHabanero had a great idea about a fast combo heavy character.
Haha I had thought that his invisibility wasn't original, but I just realized that I was thinking of Sheik in Brawl - oops

In that case, I can see him going up to a B tier.
 
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