The Uniqueness Tier List: Captain Falcon, Robin, Lucina, Shulk, and Meta-Knight

[Louie G.]

The way Takamaru USES his sword, and his reliance on projectiles can set him apart from the others.
I can just see him being a really fun character to play as.

 

[Cpt.]

The way Takamaru USES his sword, and his reliance on projectiles can set him apart from the others.
I can just see him being a really fun character to play as.

Yes I agree that his sword style will bring him up higher, but that is why he could be a B and not a C-,D tier fusion clone.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Takamaru: He is more on the unique side because he is a different type of swordsman and wields a type of blade never before seen in Smash (katana). There many other weapons to be used like your average ninja tools, elemental abilities, a magical cloak that makes you invisible, and the power of reflection via sword. One gimmick that could be used would be the reliance of heavy combo execution to reflect his appearance in Samurai Warriors 3, much more advanced than Meta Knight. Either way, he could be a rather basic swordsman with several great options, but not much uniqueness. As the final verdict, He would be a B- at best and that is what's best for him.

 

[FirstBlade]

Urban Champion
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
....not much. There are only 2 archetypes I see that make some sort of sense for this character. The 1st would obviously be rushdown, which frankly Smash has a lot of already. The 2nd, could possibly be a stance change (offensive and defensive) type character, which has potential to be unique but I am not sure Sakurai would be able to pull enough from his games to make the 2 stances unique. It would have to be improvised, in vein similar to Ice Climbers. However, there is a 3rd option that does not fit into any archetype and it has to do with the stamina mechanic present in the original Urban Champion. In the original Urban Champion, you were given a set amount of stamina that would go down with every attack. Maybe, Urban Champion could be a reverse Lucario in a sense, as he is very strong in the beginning of a match but progressively gets weaker with each attack. In my opinion, this sounds like it would make him a godawful character though and unlike PT, there would be no way to fix the situation in battle.
2. Is their moves and abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Not really. Technically, all Urban Champion does is punch: he has 1 light punch and 1 heavy punch. The goal of the game is to punch the other character into a manhole...before the police come (what were they thinking ). I guess one of his attacks could involve punching someone into a manhole? Aside from that, there are other things present in the game like falling flowerpots, confetti and....police cars? A big stretch would be using items based on the buildings in the background of the fights, such as books from a bookstore, snacks from a snack bar, scissors from a barber shop and...whatever comes from a discount store (yeah, this seems highly unlikely).
3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
A stance character in Smash has not been done before but a rushdown character has....countless times.
3a. If the concept of the character has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on its own?
No. Besides the godawful stamina I see no unique way of the rushdown for this character. Stance, on the other hand, as I said above would actually be kind of new (depends on if you count Zelda/Sheik)
4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
No, I see a lot of generic punches bound to happen. Dropping flowerpots on other players and possibly calling a police car to run over players is the only thing that sounds remotely entertaining.
5. How visually different is the character from he rest of the cast?
With most other retros, it depends. If he was to update his original design it would look sorta different. But, a realistic version makeover or something would look even more different.
6. Does it fit the character well enough?
The rushdown archetype fits like a glove but it's not unique. The stamina mechanic sounds flawed at best but I guess that fits too. A stance change from offensive to defensive also fits, as does dropping flowerpots and hitting people into manholes. However, pulling random things based on the buildings in the background does not.

Uniqueness rating: C-. A stance change type playstyle could be unique, and so are flowerpots, police cars, and manholes but it is not enough to save him from generic punching normal moves and a pretty generic character overall. The light punch and heavy punch seem like B move material, and even they are generic and unoriginal. If you didn't get my point with all the generics I put in this analysis, I'll explain simply: he is pretty generic.

 

[BluePikmin11]

So do we have any final ratings from you all? Or are we done for the day?

 

[Golden Icarus]

Takamaru
B+. Of all retros, he's probably one of the most unique ones there is. He might just be a generic sword user to some people, but a samurai fighting style is something that has a lot of possibilities. Aside from just using a katana, and ninja stars, he also has the scrolls and magic abilities which would definitely set him apart from the rest of the cast.

Urban Champion
D-. He's probably the bottom of the barrel in uniqueness. He can punch.

Alright, so how should we plan retros, will we do one retro a day? Or will we let people do their analysis on any retro for the whole week?

I have a list of retros we could do possibly, but I feel no one will be interested on some of them:
1. Mach Rider
2. Urban Champion
3. Takamaru
4. Bubbles
5. Donbe and Hikari
6. Fighter Hayabusa
7. Mike Jones
8. Sukapon
9. Prince Sable
10. Muddy Mole
11. Lip

If possible, we could include historical characters too:
12. Daitouryou
13. Harry
14. Diskun

I wanna do at least two retros a day for the next week.

I'd also add Excitebiker and Duck Hunt Dog to this list. Maybe even Balloon Fighter as well, even if he's deconfirmed, there's still a lot of people who think he'd be unique.

 

[Cpt.]

Takamaru: C+ to a B

Urban Champion: D as he would probably end up some sort of semi/fusion clone.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Almost forgot about them, I did add Duck Hunt Dog earlier in the later list.
Though I'm not to sure about Excite Biker, but we could add him to the list of retros, and replace Sukapon with him, since he's pretty much deconfirmed by being a fighting game character.

 

[Louie G.]

So Takamaru and Urban Champ's day comes to a close.
Takamaru scored pretty well. He may fight with a sword, but @Xenoblaze's interesting combo ideas and the fact that he is a samurai that can turn invisible certainly turned some heads. Because of this, Takamaru made B Tier.
Urban Champ, not so much. His boring moveset potential really put him low on the tiers, all the way down to D!

Today we will discuss Muddy Mole and Prince Sable, the Game Boy retros.
Muddy can dig underground, which no other Smasher can do! (Can't really come up with any counter arguments)
Sable can transform into a frog and a snake, but he DOES hold a sword, and what can separate him from the likes of Pokémon Trainer and Zelda?
Tagging @ Opossum and @ AEMehr for Muddy, and @ BluePikmin11 for Sable.

Discuss.

 

[Opossum]

Be right back; heading to the Muddy thread for my moveset.

 

[3Bismyname]

im gonna say Muddy. just cause a digging feature has yet to be utilized by any other smash characters

 

[Louie G.]

im gonna say Muddy. just cause a digging feature has yet to be utilized by any other smash characters

This isn't a competition between the two characters, it's more of a discussion about how the characters mentioned can be unique compared to the existing Smash cast.

 

[Opossum]

I'm back!

Here are the specials, since they illustrate the playstyle pretty well, I believe. The full set (complete with jab, tilts, aerials, grabs and smashes) can be found in the Muddy thread for those who are interested.

His Neutral B would be the iron ball. Press B once, and it spawns, and stays on the ground in front of you. You can keep it there, and it will act as an unbreakable wall. However, if you press B again when you are close to the ball, you can throw it at your opponent! It will be very slow and not very powerful at first, but if you hold B, Muddy will charge up the throw, increasing the speed, distance, and damage. However, if the opponent hits you during start up, you will drop the ball. The ball will eventually disappear if A.) Too much time passes without you throwing it, or B.) You hit the opponent. Only one Ball can be present at a time per Muddy Mole. It does 15% when pushed forward with no charge, 22% when charged. Going backwards, it does 20% uncharged, and 30% when charged.

His Side B will be the Hole Trap. Muddy would crouch low, dig a small hole, and then be able to leave the scene. The foe wouldn't know where the pitfall spot is, under normal circumstances. When it is stepped on, they fall into a pitfall. Muddy cannot get trapped by this move. So yeah, it's the pitfall item, essentially. Muddy can have up to two of these out on the stage at any given time. 0%

His Up B would be the cabbage jump. After Muddy Mole defeats a boss in his games, he saves one of his children, who pop out of a giant cabbage that falls from the sky, and leap up with a corkscrew-like jump. Muddy would essentially do the same. A giant cabbage would surround him, and he'd pop out using a Wario-like Corkscrew. If used in Midair, the cabbage will fall to the ground, potentially doing damage, and possibly a meteor-smash. When used on land, it disappears after use. I guess you can call it a mix between Wario's and Sonic's. 16% with the corkscrew, 10% if the cabbage hits you.

Muddy Mole's Down B would be Burrow. Going underground was key in Muddy Mole's adventures, so naturally Smash should reflect that. He would dig a hole, and go underground. If used on a passable platform, he'd fall through it. While underground, he can move around very fast, but at the expense of not being able to see where he is. By releasing B, he will pop out of the hole, causing minimal damage. However, you only have a three second time frame to stay underground, otherwise you are forcefully removed from the dirt. This would make up for Muddy's lackluster aerial game.

Finally, his Final Smash would be the Mole Family. When the Smash Ball is obtained, Muddy whistles loudly. His children and wife appear by his side and burrow into the stage. Going with Muddy's theme of stage control, his family makes the entire stage shake with violent tremors. To make matters worse, if the foe gets hit by one of the descending moles, they will be put into a Pitfall state. Every two or so seconds, the tremors cause 6% damage to any foe on the ground. Tripping is also slightly more likely. The effect only lasts for 15 seconds, but Muddy himself is free to move about and perpetuate the foe's agony by keeping them grounded. After 15 seconds, the family emerges. Muddy's wife puts the baby moles in their wagon, and they disappear.​

Basically, Muddy Mole is your trap user to the extreme. Block off certain spots with the Iron Ball, dig underneath it, and hit the foes on the other side is a pretty good tactic. If time is running out on it, throw it for good damage. Being a mole, Muddy is best on the ground, of course. Many of his smashes and throws are powerful. That being said, if you’re playing Muddy in the air for any reason other than recovery, you’re using him wrong. Muddy is just plain bad in the air. Low fall speed, bad aerials, and semi-lightweight an aerial fighter does not make. All in all, Muddy is an interesting character to play as, and will leave the opponents guessing as to which move he’ll use next.

 

[3Bismyname]

This isn't a competition between the two characters, it's more of a discussion about how the characters mentioned can be unique compared to the existing Smash cast.

yeah. thats what i said. i feel Muddy is more unique because he has something to offer that no other character does yet.

 

[BluePikmin11]

THE PRINCE OF SABLE

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Prince Sable's main ability in "Kaeru no Tame ni wa Naru" is to transform into a frog and snake. He also has the ability to create a cloud of dust in which Prince Sable does a rowdy rumble on the opponent in the dust. He also has the abilty to summon a giant robot called Igari-Z (Which would be his FS). Prince Sable relies on his transformations to keep the opponent guessing on what his next move will be for his playstyle. The frog form would be a light character whose jumps ar ehigh and has quick grabs and a tether with his tongue. His snake form is a heavy character whom has weak jumps and is slow, but his strength is incredibly high. Sable would be a balance between the two. Using these forms correctly can lead you to victory.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
Although transformation has been done before (ZSS and Zelda come to mind), Sable's reliance on transformation should make him unique enough to be different from the rest of the Smash cast.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
As said before, it has been done before, but not to the point of using as a tool for battle.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own?
Yes, his dependence on his transformation is unique, something Smash hasn't fully utilized to a potential moveset.

4. Does the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
I think his abilities (and his chibi looks) are charming enough to catch some of the peoples' eye on him.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
He's a prince with with red clothing, he's pretty different from the others with his chibi look. So far, no one in the cast is a prince. (Although there is arguably "Prince" Marth)

6. Does the moves and abilities fit the character well enough?
It absolutely does fit the character very well, it's who he is as a character in For the Frog the Bell Tolls.
Uniqueness Rating: B-

 

[El Fonz0]

If I may ask, what significance do Muddy Mole and Prince Sable have? Compared to, say, Takamaru(slight bit of recency due to Nintendo Land, and part of the "Famicom Four" and Little Mac(famous NES game, appearance in Brawl as AT, reboot for the Wii)
Not trying to come off as these-characters-are-pointless, but I don't see that much discussion of them.

 

[BluePikmin11]

If I may ask, what significance do Muddy Mole and Prince Sable have? Compared to, say, Takamaru(slight bit of recency due to Nintendo Land, and part of the "Famicom Four" and Little Mac(famous NES game, appearance in Brawl as AT, reboot for the Wii)
Not trying to come off as these-characters-are-pointless, but I don't see that much discussion of them.

None of them have much significance, but I think that they are noteworthy for being the only "unique" Nintendo IPs on the Gameboy. And both games are classics in my opinion, but they tend to be faded away in discussions alot.

 

[Opossum]

If I may ask, what significance do Muddy Mole and Prince Sable have? Compared to, say, Takamaru(slight bit of recency due to Nintendo Land, and part of the "Famicom Four" and Little Mac(famous NES game, appearance in Brawl as AT, reboot for the Wii)
Not trying to come off as these-characters-are-pointless, but I don't see that much discussion of them.

Well, for Muddy anyway, a variety of things. He's a Miyamoto creation, albeit a lesser known one, and as such, his game is considered a hidden gem due to its quality. As another interesting note, unlike Sable, Takamaru or Lip, Muddy's an international character. While he's not the most popular, he has arguably the ripest potential for a unique playstyle gimmick. Essentially, he'd get in for the same reasons the Ice Climbers got in. As well, pre-Brawl, it was often said that Sakurai was fond of the character (though the source for this is gone; it was apparently in Sakurai's old journal. Muddy did get a mention, but what was said about him was lost to history, but quite a few places said it was something along the lines of "I'll see what I can do to put him in. Muddy's pretty cool." Take with lots of salt).

 

[BluePikmin11]

Apparently Sable did get a mention to in Sakurai's journal, but it was lost just like Muddy's, he responded to a fan's request to have a Sable and Richard tag-team, he said that Richard doesn't warrant inclusion and that Sable was the better choice. But this isn't really the place to discuss this.

 

[FirstBlade]

I was looking forward to some Bubbles and Mach Rider today. #disappointed

Muddy Mole
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Muddy Mole is an interesting case...he doesn't really fit into any archetype which pretty much means he could be completely unique. The closest achetype to him would probably be trapper. Due to this, it is hard to put a "number" on how many ways he can be taken but I think the most obvious way to take him would be for him to be a character that relies on "hit n' run" or trickster type gameplay. Muddy Mole is probably most known for his digging, so it seems that he should be able to dig underground relatively quickly. This would allow him to attack/combo, then dig underground to evade and surprise the opponent by coming up in another place (say behind them or something). I imagine Muddy would be sort of medium slow and relatively powerful on the ground yet downright terrible in air (slow air speed, bad/laggy aerials). This seems like it could make for a tricky character to learn but a rewarding one when mastered.
2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Digging is something never before seen in Smash. I feel this would probably be Muddy's niche especially if he could zip around the stage doing this. I can see two interesting ways for digging to work. One involves Muddy digging underground. When digging, Muddy would probably be immune to any hit (except for maybe bombs) but probably not be able to stay underground forever. The 2nd, would probably be digging a hole above ground to trap opponents in. Maybe they can even add a puzzle mechanic in like dig a hole in one place, then dig in another, push a character into one hole and watch them pop out of the other. In Mole Mania, Muddy has access to a ball which he can push, pull and throw. This has potential to be unique especially if you can pick any of those 3 things to do with 1 ball, allowing for further unpredictability. I can see it being used in conjunction with his digging to make for some unique attacks (for example push the black ball in one hole for it to pop out of the other and hit a player standing near the other.) Muddy also has access to bombs which would make this puzzle mechanic even more satisfying. Though not entirely canon, I can see him possibly throwing a cabbage at a character and possibly calling on his children to do some work for him. However, because there isn't much else to pull from his game, Muddy can easily have boring claw swipes and other bland attacks for most, if not all of his normal moves.
3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
No, there is currently no trickster or trapper in Smash
4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Trapping an opponent into the ground and watching your friends face as you annoyingly hit them, dig underground and pop-up behind them and surprise them would be priceless.
5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
He's a mole for crying out loud.
6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Yes, he is a mole so digging makes absolute sense and so does the iron ball since it was present in his game. Throwing veggies fits less but still makes sense.

Uniqueness rating: A, The puzzling trickster/trapper type character, digging, and the iron ball would all be very unique but his potential to easily have simple claw attacks and kicks for A moves is not very unique.

 

[OctiVick]

Well time to throw my two cents in

Muddy mole is interesting due to the fact that his game is more puzzle based and combat requires set ups. I could somewhat imagine him having elements from his game and having a moveset that would work better when you prepare set ups before hand. Overall I give him a B.
EDIT: I forgot to mention the fact that Muddy could have unique mechanics biased on digging and underground combat.

Prince Sable could be interesting with his abilities of transformation but Im still wondering how they can implement it. One hand the can have the frog/snake be transformations like Zelda or they could implement them in basic attacks/specials. Other than that combat wise he would be a pretty simple fighter with normal attacks no matter what form he is in (well except maybe the snake form). Overall B just like muddy.

 

[Cpt.]

THE PRINCE OF SABLE

1. How many diverse options does this character have?
Prince Sable's main ability in "Kaeru no Tame ni wa Naru" is to transform into a frog and snake. He also has the ability to create a cloud of dust in which Prince Sable does a rowdy rumble on the opponent in the dust. He also has the abilty to summon a giant robot called Igari-Z (Which would be his FS). Prince Sable relies on his transformations to keep the opponent guessing on what his next move will be for his playstyle. The frog form would be a light character whose jumps ar ehigh and has quick grabs and a tether with his tongue. His snake form is a heavy character whom has weak jumps and is slow, but his strength is incredibly high. Sable would be a balance between the two. Using these forms correctly can lead you to victory.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the Smash cast?
Although transformation has been done before (ZSS and Zelda come to mind), Sable's reliance on transformation should make him unique enough to be different from the rest of the Smash cast.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
As said before, it has been done before, but not to the point of using as a tool for battle.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique on it's own?
Yes, his dependence on his transformation is unique, something Smash hasn't fully utilized to a potential moveset.

4. Does the character's abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
I think his abilities (and his chibi looks) are charming enough to catch some of the peoples' eye on him.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
He's a prince with with red clothing, he's pretty different from the others with his chibi look. So far, no one in the cast is a prince. (Although there is arguably "Prince" Marth)

6. Does the moves and abilities fit the character well enough?
It absolutely does fit the character very well, it's who he is as a character in For the Frog the Bell Tolls.
Uniqueness Rating: B-

Nice stuff. However, I don't agree with your statement on him being similar to ZSS, Pokemon Trainer, Zelda/Sheik. Just because he transforms doesn't mean he is similar to those characters. Every transforming ability can be unique as long as the transformation isn't some sort of clone of another character. The frog one sounds like it could be similar to some of our light weight characters or maybe fox/yoshi, but the snake one sounds like it would be very different.

I think that he is unique enough to get a B (not B+ or A because I feel that his sword state could be similar to Toon Link).

 

[AEMehr]

I'm back!

Here are the specials, since they illustrate the playstyle pretty well, I believe. The full set (complete with jab, tilts, aerials, grabs and smashes) can be found in the Muddy thread for those who are interested.

That moment when your entire unique and awesome Muddy Mole moveset is essentially Opossum's.

Will be posting it anyways though...

 

[FirstBlade]

I'm confused as to why Urban Champion is in D Tier. I thought that was reserved for semi clones. Wouldn't C- be the lowest he can get considering that he has enough potential to not be a clone of someone else (although his potential is very lacking obviously).

Also looking ahead for Pokemon week: Mewtwo, Blaziken, New PT (including N and Team Rocket), Greninja, Zoroark, Hawlucha, Meowth and Victini are the candidates? These are the only Pokemon character suggestions I see with some form of popularity.

Looking even more ahead: What else are we going to do. Are we going to do a Mario week and Zelda week as well to represent the big 3 or should we skip Mario due to Rosalina? Below are some things I came up with.
Mario: Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, Toad, Waluigi....and Daisy?
Zelda: Toon Zelda, Tingle, Ghirahim, Midna, Vaati
Unfinished Buisness (other series): Dixie Kong, Mona, Captain Syrup, Krystal, Porky, Giygas, Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow, new Pikmin captain
Third Party: Pac-man, Bomberman, Simon Belmont, Rayman, new Sonic character, Bayonetta
New Series: Shulk, Isaac, Dillon, Chibi Robo, Rhythm Heaven, Saki, Ray MK, Advance Wars character (Andy, Sami), Mii

What else should we do?

 

[Cpt.]

I'm confused as to why Urban Champion is in D Tier. I thought that was reserved for semi clones. Wouldn't C- be the lowest he can get considering that he has enough potential to not be a clone of someone else (although his potential is very lacking obviously).

Also looking ahead for Pokemon week: Mewtwo, Blaziken, New PT (including N and Team Rocket), Greninja, Zoroark, Hawlucha, Meowth and Victini are the candidates? These are the only Pokemon character suggestions I see with some form of popularity.

Looking even more ahead: What else are we going to do. Are we going to do a Mario week and Zelda week as well to represent the big 3 or should we skip Mario due to Rosalina? Below are some things I came up with.
Mario: Bowser Jr., Paper Mario, Toad, Waluigi....and Daisy?
Zelda: Toon Zelda, Tingle, Ghirahim, Midna, Vaati
Unfinished Buisness (other series): Dixie Kong, Mona, Captain Syrup, Krystal, Porky, Giygas, Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow, new Pikmin captain
Third Party: Pac-man, Bomberman, Simon Belmont, Rayman, new Sonic character, Bayonetta
New Series: Shulk, Isaac, Dillon, Chibi Robo, Rhythm Heaven, Saki, Ray MK, Advance Wars character (Andy, Sami), Mii

What else should we do?

I put semi clones and fusion clones into D tier, fusion clones can get higher if they still feel original IMO.

my definition Fusion Clone - a character who has moves comprised of multiple other pre-existing character's moves.

 

[Bowserlick]

Muddy Mole
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Smash is a game where movement is a big deal. Muddy Mole brings possible different forms of locomotion from digging to rolling on the giant sphere from his game (which he can also throw). A cabbage could be used as a special in some form. Using his claws for swiping, drill attacks, spinning out turrets of dirt and other such activities gives him enough meat to flesh out his A moves.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Digging is a standout move. But also utilizing the large sphere to control space, ride on, and throw could be just as creative. So yes.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
A digging character has not been done before. This along with the sphere can be used to control the ground where a mole should reign king.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
Claw swipes has been factored into Wolf's moveset. But Muddy Mole could spin his hand like a drill for a multiple hitting Smash attack. He can possibly scoop dirt or a rock from the floor for a tilt or Smash projectile.

4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Yes. A ground based character with locomotion focusing on the ground rather than the air is different and entertaining.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
He would be the only mole. And his digging would be intuitive to players because that is what moles do.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Digging fits a mole and the character of a mole. A ground focused moveset would also be incredibly fitting.

Uniqueness Rating: A to A +
Honestly, digging would be unique. Brawl introduced gliding and the ground counterpart in crawling. But gliding is much more useful. A strong movement feature for ground-based combat would be welcomed. Add in the giant sphere, a cabbage, drill attacks involving those claws and Muddy Mole really has a collection of possibilities.

 

[AEMehr]

[collapse="Muddy Mole - A Moveset by AEM"]Muddy Mole is roughly Squirtle's height. Due to his small stature, Muddy can be knocked off stages fairly easy. He's a bit heavier than Mario though, considering his chubby appearance.
Being a mole, naturally the ground is Muddy's greatest ally and this translates into his moveset very well.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL: Iron Ball - Muddy pulls out a giant iron ball out of thin air. This Iron Ball is roughly Muddy's size, if not a bit bigger. The iron ball itself acts as a physical shield. Opponents can attack it all they want, but it will not break. If attacked, the ball move a very tiny distance. Constant damage moves (Falco's combo, Sheik's combo, etc.) makes it move very slowly if it's being hit constantly, but not fast enough for it do damage. The only characters that could really get it moving fast enough to do lots of damage would be the stronger fighters (Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Dedede, etc.). If someone does hit it hard enough and it hits Muddy, he'll take damage as well. However, Muddy can also attack the Iron Ball to cause it to move. It works very well with his Forward Smash (which is him fiercely kicking forward).
Muddy can also grab the ball with the Grab button / Shield+Attack button combination. This allows Muddy to push and pull the ball around. To let go of the Iron Ball, simply press the A button.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL (IN AIR): Iron Ball Drop - Muddy summons a ball out of nowhere again, but it instantly drops down onto the ground. Similar to Villager's Bowling Ball move, but is usable once it lands.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL (NEAR IRON BALL): Iron Ball Throw - Once close to a ball, if the neutral special button is pressed Muddy will grab onto the Iron Ball powerfully.
Now you can do four things:

• Toss it forward for some decent damage at an average range (I'd same a bit more than a battlefield platform?).
• Toss it backward for the same amount of damage with a little less range (about a battlefield platform?).
• Wait for Muddy's to firmly plant his feet and toughen up his stance and...

- Throw the ball forward for a whole lot more damage at around the distance of Battlefield itself.
- Throw the ball backward for the same amount of damage at a little bit less distance of Battlefield's main platform.​

NEUTRAL SPECIAL (IRON BALL ALREADY SUMMONED): Whoops! - If Muddy presses the Neutral Special button away from the Iron Ball he attempts to grab the ball out of thin air but falls over, as the expected weight he was going to carry did not appear.
~ Notes ~
The Iron Ball is based entirely on the main objective of Mole Mania, getting the Iron Ball to white wall to move onward. The Iron Ball is vital to Muddy's stage control game. Moving it around is important to deal real damage to opponents. This is the move that will probably kill opponents the majority of the time.
Other Muddy Moles are able to grab Iron Balls not summoned by them, like how multiple Warios can use one Bike.
Occasionally Muddy will summon a large patch of Cabbage instead.

• Unlike the Iron Ball, this is not completely invulnerable and can only take roughly 50% damage until it explodes into pieces of the once large cabbage patch that are consumable to restore some health.
• Also unlike the Iron Ball, this thing is really light and can be flung around fairly easy by the majority of the cast.​

SIDE SPECIAL: Pitfall Trap - Muddy sticks his claws into the ground in front of him and creates a pitfall. If an opponent walks on top of that area, they get trapped as if they were hit by a Pitfall. Muddy could a few of these lying around the stage. This spikes opponents on ledges.
~ Notes ~
Majorly based on Muddy's ability to dig pretty much anywhere at any time.
UP SPECIAL: Mole Drill - Muddy drills through the air, the duration of this move is fairly small as is the distance it goes. You can choose Muddy's direction midmove. So it is somewhat like Lucario's Extremespeed. Unlike Lucario's Extremespeed, if Muddy comes into contact with any portion of the stage he drills into it and digs his way back to the top of stage's main platform.
~ Notes ~
Muddy sort of drills through the ground so, Mole Drill eh? Considering his horrible air game, I believe a recovery with a unique function like this is suitable for somebody with as much ground control as Muddy right?
DOWN SPECIAL: Burrow - Muddy burrows himself underground to the point where you can only see his head poking out. While he moves at in this state he is completely underground, but you can sort of guess his positioning by the ground moving on the stage. He moves fairly fast underground, as he only has roughly 4 to 5 seconds to go where he wants before he returns above ground. While in the ground Muddy is essentially invulnerable to almost every attack, albeit ones that hit the ground (Dedede's Forward Smash, Bowser's Down Special, Ganondorf's Up Tilt) if hit by one of these, he is shot up into the air.
If Muddy goes near a ledge while being underground, he could fall off the stage if he isn't too careful.
If used on a platform with no real ground for Muddy to hide in, he'll go straight through it. Spiking anybody who touches him during this move (This goes for platforms like the ones on Battlefield and main platforms for the traveling stages [Delfino Plaza, F-Zero Stages, Rainbow Road, Skyloft, etc.).
DOWN SPECIAL (AIR): Mole Drill - Muddy drills again, but downward at a fairly fast rate. If opponents are caught in this move they'll be dragged downward with Muddy. If the button is pressed, Muddy will land on the ground. But if held, Muddy will burrow straight into the ground. A great move for retreating away from enemies.
~ Notes ~
Move is clearly based on Muddy's ability to dig (which is supposed to be his biggest selling point after all).
FINAL SMASH: Mole Mania - Muddy whistles out as if he's calling for something or someone, when suddenly the ground shakes!
All of Muddy's children and his wife pop out onto the stage! The Children are scampering around, causing anybody on the ground to be trapped by pitfalls while Muddy and his wife after the scamps to calm them down and get them back to safety. The two cause tons of knockback and damage if they come in contact with any opponents. Once the 7 children are gathered the two meet up: the Children go into a hole, the Muddy and his wife share a kiss and she jumps into the hole as well. This ends the Final Smash.[/collapse]
A to A+
Also, to those suggesting his claw slashing normals wouldn't make him unique...
Nobody's but Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, Villager, and Mega Man's normals are really unique.

 

[Cpt.]

Muddy Mole
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Smash is a game where movement is a big deal. Muddy Mole brings possible different forms of locomotion from digging to rolling on the giant sphere from his game (which he can also throw). A cabbage could be used as a special in some form. Using his claws for swiping, drill attacks, spinning out turrets of dirt and other such activities gives him enough meat to flesh out his A moves.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
Digging is a standout move. But also utilizing the large sphere to control space, ride on, and throw could be just as creative. So yes.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
A digging character has not been done before. This along with the sphere can be used to control the ground where a mole should reign king.
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
Claw swipes has been factored into Wolf's moveset. But Muddy Mole could spin his hand like a drill for a multiple hitting Smash attack. He can possibly scoop dirt or a rock from the floor for a tilt or Smash projectile.
4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
Yes. A ground based character with locomotion focusing on the ground rather than the air is different and entertaining.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
He would be the only mole. And his digging would be intuitive to players because that is what moles do.
6. Does it fit the character well enough?
Digging fits a mole and the character of a mole. A ground focused moveset would also be incredibly fitting.

Uniqueness Rating: A to A +
Honestly, digging would be unique. Brawl introduced gliding and the ground counterpart in crawling. But gliding is much more useful. A strong movement feature for ground-based combat would be welcomed. Add in the giant sphere, a cabbage, drill attacks involving those claws and Muddy Mole really has a collection of possibilities.

I can see Muddy as very unique with the movesets that everyone is posting, but I can't help, but question how digging would work. Especially in stages like smashville that are supper skinny. None the less if Sakurai can make that work it would be really cool. Probably high enough to get him to Snakes's Tier so:

Muddy Mole A Tier

 

[BluePikmin11]

Prince Sable could be interesting with his abilities of transformation but Im still wondering how they can implement it. One hand the can have the frog/snake be transformations like Zelda or they could implement them in basic attacks/specials. Other than that combat wise he would be a pretty simple fighter with normal attacks no matter what form he is in (well except maybe the snake form). Overall B just like muddy.

Either way, I would be fine if his normal attacks were just transforming into frog and Snake if it's for the sake of saving space.

Nice stuff. However, I don't agree with your statement on him being similar to ZSS, Pokemon Trainer, Zelda/Sheik. Just because he transforms doesn't mean he is similar to those characters. Every transforming ability can be unique as long as the transformation isn't some sort of clone of another character. The frog one sounds like it could be similar to some of our light weight characters or maybe fox/yoshi, but the snake one sounds like it would be very different.

I think that he is unique enough to get a B (not B+ or A because I feel that his sword state could be similar to Toon Link).

You're probably right on that. I think he's different enough from other transformation characters, it's just that sometimes it's brought up alot in discussion that Sable would be a waste of space, so I noted it as a problem. Using transformation as a means of strategy would be unique in my opinion, different enough like Pokemon Trainer.

 

[ToothiestAura]

Rating time, I suppose.

Muddy Mole: A Tier
[collapse=reasoning]
Though Muddy Mole could have some fairly generic A moves, his B moves have the potential to be truly unique. Creating pitfalls, burrowing into the stage and summon an iron ball to use in a variety of ways are all pretty interesting additions to the game. A lot of potential using his unique burrowing mechanic with his pitfalls and/or iron balls.[/collapse]

Prince Sable: B+ Tier
[collapse=reasoning]
Prince Sable has the potential to be a transformation character involving 3 separate characters (much like Pokemon Trainer). The only thing holding him back from A Tier in my opinion is the potential for unexciting specials and potentially uninspired basic moves (specifically in his Prince form).[/collapse]

 

[Cpt.]

You're probably right on that. I think he's different enough from other transformation characters, it's just that sometimes it's brought up alot in discussion that Sable would be a waste of space, so I noted it as a problem. Using transformation as a means of strategy would be unique in my opinion, different enough like Pokemon Trainer.

Yeah that's just an argument that I wouldn't understand. Sure both Zelda and Red have a down B that transforms, but they don't transform into the same thing. That is like saying oh man both Samus and Mario have the same up B because they both go up higher...... -_-

I'm glad you don't see it that way. I think your right about the transforming as a strategy also. They are a few transforming characters, but competitively, no one ever wants to switch during a match.

 

[Bowserlick]

Prince Sable
(BluePikmin11's questions)

1. How many diverse options does the character have?
Prince Sable's main draw is transformations. Into a snake to crawl and into a frog to jump in order to navigate levels. Transformations have been done before. And I do not think Prince Sable offers enough to take up development time for two other forms. But that does not mean that he cannot turn into a snake for his side B or a frog for his Up B for the duration of his move. He also has a unique way of fighting. He tumbles in a fight cloud with the enemy. But I cannot really see this used except for one special or throws.

2. Is their moves or abilities diverse from the rest of the cast?
I am not sure if Prince Sable brings enough to truly diversify him. Transforming for a special attack would be more visual than anything else. And transforming characters has been done twice. Another way to try to shoe-horn in a different transformation style is to have a human form with a sword and a frog form with a sword. Same attacks, but clones of each other with different stats. This would be different enough to be somewhat interesting. But I do not think this strategy fits the character.

3. Has the concept of the character been done before?
Pretty much, yes. Sword character: done. Transformation character: done
3a. If it has been done before, is the character's way of doing it unique?
There are ways to try to do transformation differently, but I am not sure if they really fit the character. The best hope is to go the visual route. Up B and perhaps B (tongue) for a frog attack, down B for a Snake attack, and side B for a command grab involving the fight cloud.

4. Does the characters abilities and moves provide enough to be entertaining?
I honestly feel like he just offers a fairy tale/cartoon vibe and a full on transformation character would be a stretch and waste of roster potential.

5. How visually different is the character in terms of body shape and looks?
His cartoon style may be the best feature going for him.

6. Does it fit the character well enough?
His transformations may be a bit of a stretch. They were primarily used for locomotion so they may only really make sense and be visually noteworthy as special attacks (Up B and side B really underlining the locomotion aspect of the forms).

Uniqueness Rating: C + to B -
He offers a cartoonish look and vibe especially with his dust cloud fighting style. But otherwise, it may be hard to fill all his moveset options and I think ultimately he could fall flat.

 

[FirstBlade]

[collapse="Muddy Mole - A Moveset by AEM"]Muddy Mole is roughly Squirtle's height. Due to his small stature, Muddy can be knocked off stages fairly easy. He's a bit heavier than Mario though, considering his chubby appearance.
Being a mole, naturally the ground is Muddy's greatest ally and this translates into his moveset very well.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL: Iron Ball - Muddy pulls out a giant iron ball out of thin air. This Iron Ball is roughly Muddy's size, if not a bit bigger. The iron ball itself acts as a physical shield. Opponents can attack it all they want, but it will not break. If attacked, the ball move a very tiny distance. Constant damage moves (Falco's combo, Sheik's combo, etc.) makes it move very slowly if it's being hit constantly, but not fast enough for it do damage. The only characters that could really get it moving fast enough to do lots of damage would be the stronger fighters (Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Dedede, etc.). If someone does hit it hard enough and it hits Muddy, he'll take damage as well. However, Muddy can also attack the Iron Ball to cause it to move. It works very well with his Forward Smash (which is him fiercely kicking forward).
Muddy can also grab the ball with the Grab button / Shield+Attack button combination. This allows Muddy to push and pull the ball around. To let go of the Iron Ball, simply press the A button.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL (IN AIR): Iron Ball Drop - Muddy summons a ball out of nowhere again, but it instantly drops down onto the ground. Similar to Villager's Bowling Ball move, but is usable once it lands.
NEUTRAL SPECIAL (NEAR IRON BALL): Iron Ball Throw - Once close to a ball, if the neutral special button is pressed Muddy will grab onto the Iron Ball powerfully.
Now you can do four things:

• Toss it forward for some decent damage at an average range (I'd same a bit more than a battlefield platform?).
• Toss it backward for the same amount of damage with a little less range (about a battlefield platform?).
• Wait for Muddy's to firmly plant his feet and toughen up his stance and...

- Throw the ball forward for a whole lot more damage at around the distance of Battlefield itself.
- Throw the ball backward for the same amount of damage at a little bit less distance of Battlefield's main platform.​

NEUTRAL SPECIAL (IRON BALL ALREADY SUMMONED): Whoops! - If Muddy presses the Neutral Special button away from the Iron Ball he attempts to grab the ball out of thin air but falls over, as the expected weight he was going to carry did not appear.
~ Notes ~
The Iron Ball is based entirely on the main objective of Mole Mania, getting the Iron Ball to white wall to move onward. The Iron Ball is vital to Muddy's stage control game. Moving it around is important to deal real damage to opponents. This is the move that will probably kill opponents the majority of the time.
Other Muddy Moles are able to grab Iron Balls not summoned by them, like how multiple Warios can use one Bike.
Occasionally Muddy will summon a large patch of Cabbage instead.

• Unlike the Iron Ball, this is not completely invulnerable and can only take roughly 50% damage until it explodes into pieces of the once large cabbage patch that are consumable to restore some health.
• Also unlike the Iron Ball, this thing is really light and can be flung around fairly easy by the majority of the cast.​

SIDE SPECIAL: Pitfall Trap - Muddy sticks his claws into the ground in front of him and creates a pitfall. If an opponent walks on top of that area, they get trapped as if they were hit by a Pitfall. Muddy could a few of these lying around the stage. This spikes opponents on ledges.
~ Notes ~
Majorly based on Muddy's ability to dig pretty much anywhere at any time.
UP SPECIAL: Mole Drill - Muddy drills through the air, the duration of this move is fairly small as is the distance it goes. You can choose Muddy's direction midmove. So it is somewhat like Lucario's Extremespeed. Unlike Lucario's Extremespeed, if Muddy comes into contact with any portion of the stage he drills into it and digs his way back to the top of stage's main platform.
~ Notes ~
Muddy sort of drills through the ground so, Mole Drill eh? Considering his horrible air game, I believe a recovery with a unique function like this is suitable for somebody with as much ground control as Muddy right?
DOWN SPECIAL: Burrow - Muddy burrows himself underground to the point where you can only see his head poking out. While he moves at in this state he is completely underground, but you can sort of guess his positioning by the ground moving on the stage. He moves fairly fast underground, as he only has roughly 4 to 5 seconds to go where he wants before he returns above ground. While in the ground Muddy is essentially invulnerable to almost every attack, albeit ones that hit the ground (Dedede's Forward Smash, Bowser's Down Special, Ganondorf's Up Tilt) if hit by one of these, he is shot up into the air.
If Muddy goes near a ledge while being underground, he could fall off the stage if he isn't too careful.
If used on a platform with no real ground for Muddy to hide in, he'll go straight through it. Spiking anybody who touches him during this move (This goes for platforms like the ones on Battlefield and main platforms for the traveling stages [Delfino Plaza, F-Zero Stages, Rainbow Road, Skyloft, etc.).
DOWN SPECIAL (AIR): Mole Drill - Muddy drills again, but downward at a fairly fast rate. If opponents are caught in this move they'll be dragged downward with Muddy. If the button is pressed, Muddy will land on the ground. But if held, Muddy will burrow straight into the ground. A great move for retreating away from enemies.
~ Notes ~
Move is clearly based on Muddy's ability to dig (which is supposed to be his biggest selling point after all).
FINAL SMASH: Mole Mania - Muddy whistles out as if he's calling for something or someone, when suddenly the ground shakes!
All of Muddy's children and his wife pop out onto the stage! The Children are scampering around, causing anybody on the ground to be trapped by pitfalls while Muddy and his wife after the scamps to calm them down and get them back to safety. The two cause tons of knockback and damage if they come in contact with any opponents. Once the 7 children are gathered the two meet up: the Children go into a hole, the Muddy and his wife share a kiss and she jumps into the hole as well. This ends the Final Smash.[/collapse]
A to A+
Also, to those suggesting his claw slashing normals wouldn't make him unique...
Nobody's but Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, Villager, and Mega Man's normals are really unique.

Peach (changing side smash, hearts, slaps), Zelda (magic attacks), and Snake's (planting mines, rocket launchers), Rosalina and Luma (galaxies, Saturnian rings, magic) are also pretty unique, it is just that I see almost all of his A moves being generic. The majority of those who are in A Tier have unique A moves. Considering Kirby is in A Tier though, I guess he does fit there.

EDIT: I changed Muddy's score on my analysis anyways because you did bring up a fine point.

DOUBLE EDIT: Could someone please add the veteran tier and criteria (of tiers) to the OP as well please. It could be in a spoiler box if it needs to be but it could be a lot easier to rank characters with it.

 

[Louie G.]

@ FirstBlade
Urban Champ is D Tier because his game specifically revolves around punching and nothing else. While Punch Out has a lot of substance, Urban Champion does not, and a character who is limited to punches and the occasional weapon is almost certain to be one of the dullest additions to Smash Bros ever.
And you may argue Mac, but Mac punches in many different ways, and he has that nifty Star System to collect stars and power up his uppercut.
And I love your ideas for weeks, they make a lot of sense.
Everyone agrees on Pokémon Week next week? Let's try something new. You guys, after giving an input on the character being discussed, can nominate Pokémon to add to next week.
There are limited slots, so I recommend choosing relevant, popular, and/or important characters like Zoroark and Meowth.

 

[El Fonz0]

@ FirstBlade
Urban Champ is D Tier because his game specifically revolves around punching and nothing else. While Punch Out has a lot of substance, Urban Champion does not, and a character who is limited to punches and the occasional weapon is almost certain to be one of the dullest additions to Smash Bros ever.
And you may argue Mac, but Mac punches in many different ways, and he has that nifty Star System to collect stars and power up his uppercut.
And I love your ideas for weeks, they make a lot of sense.
Everyone agrees on Pokémon Week next week? Let's try something new. You guys, after giving an input on the character being discussed, can nominate Pokémon to add to next week.
There are limited slots, so I recommend choosing relevant, popular, and/or important characters like Zoroark and Meowth.

For next Week, I'd say Zoroark, Genesect, Blaziken, Meowth, Greninja, N, and Cynthia.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Cynthia? Nah, that doesn't seem like a choice Sakurai would pick. I agree with Blaziken.
How bout a Kalos Trainer instead of Greninja.
It's really hard to think a popular noticable Pokemon choice after that though.

 

[Louie G.]

I wouldn't do another Trainer, since Trainer's gimmick is unique and the new Trainer would automatically be low tier due to that.

 

[El Fonz0]

Something I never liked about making a Pokemon be part of a team was that it was forcing other random shlubs to be a part of the character when it could very easily just be unique.
The reason it works for Pokemon Trainer is because his team is comprised of three of the most iconic Pokemon in history: the first games' starters.

 

[BluePikmin11]

What other Pokemon could we rate? There isn't really anyone notable after that.
You wanna extend the week of Retros by a day till Sunday so we can rate Donbe and Hikari and maybe Goku (Famicom Tales)?

 

[Louie G.]

I have a surprise Poke in mind actually...