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The Uniqueness Tier List: Captain Falcon, Robin, Lucina, Shulk, and Meta-Knight

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ToothiestAura

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Well were rating both of them separately. If that's what you wanted to know.
Yes.

Toon Zelda: D+
While there's no doubt that Toon Zelda could be unique the chances are slim. She gets a plus because she could have the Phantom assist her in her moveset somehow, but it is far more likely she would be a clone of Zelda with different stats.

Tetra: B Tier
Tetra has a lot of potential as the more rowdy side of the princess. Arguably, Toon Zelda could also borrow some of Toon Link's items but Tetra seems like the type to use them more than a Princess does. As a Pirate borrowing Items such as T. Link's Grappling Hook makes sense. She could also use the Skull Hammer given that's the weapon required to take down the Helmroc King (the bird that kidnapped her). She could also use bombs, considering her crew is the source of the bombs T. Link gets in WW. Or to make it more unique, she could use bombchus, which would be like a combination of bombs and Pikachu's Standard Special move (bombs that move along the ground and go up or down walls/ledges). Bombchus were present in Phantom Hourglass, and she was a character present in said game.As a Pirate she could use knives or even have the capacity to steal items. For an FS she could call in her ship. Overall, a lot options for Ttrs that are less usable by Toon Zelda.
 

OctiVick

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I'll do this only for a solo Tetra


Tetra was major character in Zelda Wind Waker and after that made appearances in other Zeldas, even having a sub game of her own.

Tetra is a Pirate which surprisingly is a concept that hasn't been in smash yet. With that in mind you can tell her arsenal can consist of daggers, cannons, bombs, catapults, and even . . . barrels? As you can see in her design her basic weapon is a short dagger which could be used for quick cuts and can be used different than other blades shown in smash so far. As being a pirate explosives are a given and you could give her a special explosive like the bomb chu as seen in PH. As for barrels and catapults she can retrace the scene from forsaken fortress and shoot herself in a barrel for a possible recovery. Borrowing from Toon Link she could use items like the Skull Hammer that can deal heavy damage, the deku leaf that can provide areal mobility, the grapple hook which speaks for itself, and even the spoils bag could be used for theft capabilities.

Tetra is much more adventurous and rowdy than most other Zelda incarnations and you can possible see in in her movements and animations. She is quick and agile when it comes to battle. You can assume by her personality that she's the type that would go down with the ship in the heat of battle meaning she might be a bit more fierce than the other Toon characters. Her body type is nearly identical to Toon Link but with her outfit and overall design you can tell them apart for the most part.

Tetra dose have potential and is fun character, although her possible move-set isn't anything new her personality makes up for it; so her final grade is:
B

 
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n88

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I'd love to see Toon Zelda make her Smash debut, but I've got no delusions about her uniqueness. If Toon Link's still a clone, then Toon Zelda definitely isn't getting a unique moveset [spoiler: Toon Link is a clone]. The only room for divergence is with her Down Special, since I'm not really buying that Toon Sheik will ever be a thing [mostly for practical reasons regarding the length of Toon legs and the abundance of crazy kicking moves in Sheik's moveset].

Supposing her Down Special is a Tetra transformation. . . you could do some cool stuff with Tetra. She doesn't really have a "hook" so to speak, but I could see her working as a scrappy swordsman type and likely drawing on pirate tropes, much like Sheik's specials are based in ninja lore.

To boil it down to bullet points:
Toon Zelda - D. Would be F, but there's some hope of a new Down Special [even just a different transformation] putting the rest of her set in a new context.
Tetra - B-. She doesn't have any obvious mechanical draw, but she would bring a new archetype and its tropes to Smash.
 

andimidna

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Toon Zelda: F
Toon Link is a clone. There's no doubt Toon Zelda would be.
Especially when Toon Link has a large array of abilities, and Toon Zleda only has light arrows. Light Arrow is already Zelda's Final Smash. Both use it the same exact way, so she has 0 unique qualities and deserves to lowest tier.
Plus, Spirit Tracks Zelda's only move, the Phantom, is an assist trophy. She has nothing.

Tetra: D+
With Toon Link being a clone, I'm not confident in her uniqueness either.
A clone of Zelda and Sheik were planned for Brawl. It is possible that "Toon Sheik" was referring to Tetra.
Toon Sheik does not exist. This would be a nonexistant version of a one-time character. So it is unlikely that Sakurai would even make up such a character. I can't imagine a short stubby-legged Sheik running with similar animations and attacks.
It is more likely that this was the "developers' code-name" for the recurring character Toon Zelda actually has an alter ego of, Tetra.
Tetra doesn't really do much, or any fighting. So her moveset would need to be completely made-up if Sakurai wanted her unique.
She has a knife/sword/dagger... but that isn't very unique.
Plenty of characters on the roster have this already.

Overall, these character may be likely, but they are definitely not unique.

EDIT: I missed Ghirahim's day? Aw... Oh well, he's in the right spot.
 
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Tepig2000

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Toon Zelda: F
Toon Link is a clone. There's no doubt Toon Zelda would be.
Especially when Toon Link has a large array of abilities, and Toon Zleda only has light arrows. Light Arrow is already Zelda's Final Smash. Both use it the same exact way, so she has 0 unique qualities and deserves to lowest tier.
Plus, Spirit Tracks Zelda's only move, the Phantom, is an assist trophy. She has nothing.

Tetra: D+
With Toon Link being a clone, I'm not confident in her uniqueness either.
A clone of Zelda and Sheik were planned for Brawl. It is possible that "Toon Sheik" was referring to Tetra.
Toon Sheik does not exist. This would be a nonexistant version of a one-time character. So it is unlikely that Sakurai would even make up such a character. I can't imagine a short stubby-legged Sheik running with similar animations and attacks.
It is more likely that this was the "developers' code-name" for the recurring character Toon Zelda actually has an alter ego of, Tetra.
Tetra doesn't really do much, or any fighting. So her moveset would need to be completely made-up if Sakurai wanted her unique.
She has a knife/sword/dagger... but that isn't very unique.
Plenty of characters on the roster have this already.

Overall, these character may be likely, but they are definitely not unique.

EDIT: I missed Ghirahim's day? Aw... Oh well, he's in the right spot.
I don't think the same way about Tetra. Did you read the video I posted? She has the barrels, catapults, ropes, bombchus, spoils bag, skull hammer and more.
 
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I don't think the same way about Tetra. Did you read the video I posted? She has the barrels, catapults, ropes, bombchus, spoils bag, skull hammer and more.
She may have many props she can use, but there are only so many inputs where those would make sense on a normal moveset. That is to say, it's unlikely Tetra could be Villager who spawns a new item on every input, so she is limited basically to specials, where one has to be a recovery and one may have to be a transformation. That only leaves two moves where things like bombchus, catapults and so on fit well. Standards and aerials are bound to be using the dagger/knife more, while the grab game at best is a grapple hook.

Just look at Toon Link, who uses all these items and more in his game, as well as just normal Link. They have three items on their specials (bomb, bow&arrow, boomerang), a grappling hook on grab, but aside from that it's all melee combat with or without their sword.
 

OctiVick

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Toon Zelda: F
Toon Link is a clone. There's no doubt Toon Zelda would be.
Especially when Toon Link has a large array of abilities, and Toon Zleda only has light arrows. Light Arrow is already Zelda's Final Smash. Both use it the same exact way, so she has 0 unique qualities and deserves to lowest tier.
Plus, Spirit Tracks Zelda's only move, the Phantom, is an assist trophy. She has nothing.

Tetra: D+
With Toon Link being a clone, I'm not confident in her uniqueness either.
A clone of Zelda and Sheik were planned for Brawl. It is possible that "Toon Sheik" was referring to Tetra.
Toon Sheik does not exist. This would be a nonexistant version of a one-time character. So it is unlikely that Sakurai would even make up such a character. I can't imagine a short stubby-legged Sheik running with similar animations and attacks.
It is more likely that this was the "developers' code-name" for the recurring character Toon Zelda actually has an alter ego of, Tetra.
Tetra doesn't really do much, or any fighting. So her moveset would need to be completely made-up if Sakurai wanted her unique.
She has a knife/sword/dagger... but that isn't very unique.
Plenty of characters on the roster have this already.

Overall, these character may be likely, but they are definitely not unique.

EDIT: I missed Ghirahim's day? Aw... Oh well, he's in the right spot.
I do respect your opinion but I would like to mention that just because a character was planed to be a clone originally doesn't mean that in a new development they will make the same choices as before. I can't really say anything about T.Zelda but I can say that it would be pretty hard to make Tetra a clone now due to her possible abilities as a pirate captain and that new characters that were suspected to be clones (Rosalina as Peach clone) have move-sets that nobody expected. Also I would like to point out that daggers are not the same as swords due to the fact that they are more close ranged weapons and must be held/used differently than a sword which is more mid range; the closest thing to a dagger we got in smash is wolf's blaster.

Anyway I still respect your opinion as I hope you do mine.
 

andimidna

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I don't think the same way about Tetra. Did you read the video I posted? She has the barrels, catapults, ropes, bombchus, spoils bag, skull hammer and more.
Since Toon Link can't even use his own unique items, I don't see Tetra using them.
The same reason I think Toon Zelda will be a clone is the reason I think Tetra will be one.
Toon Link and Brawl's data.
 

andimidna

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I do respect your opinion but I would like to mention that just because a character was planed to be a clone originally doesn't mean that in a new development they will make the same choices as before. I can't really say anything about T.Zelda but I can say that it would be pretty hard to make Tetra a clone now due to her possible abilities as a pirate captain and that new characters that were suspected to be clones (Rosalina as Peach clone) have move-sets that nobody expected. Also I would like to point out that daggers are not the same as swords due to the fact that they are more close ranged weapons and must be held/used differently than a sword which is more mid range; the closest thing to a dagger we got in smash is wolf's blaster.

Anyway I still respect your opinion as I hope you do mine.
I've always thought the "Peach-clone-Rosalina" people were dumb, so I can't relate there.
But it is significant that they've had the idea of her as a clone in their minds.
Daggers are extremely similar to swords.


How is the way she holds her sword any different.
It's a small sword with a curve.

But like Sheik, she never uses it. It just stays in it's sheath. Only in her new artwork is she holding it.

 
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OctiVick

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I've always thought the "Peach-clone-Rosalina" people were dumb, so I can't relate there.
But it is significant that they've had the idea of her as a clone in their minds.
Daggers are extremely similar to swords.
How is the way she holds her sword any different.
It's a small sword with a curve.

But like Sheik, she never uses it. It just stays in it's sheath. Only in her new artwork is she holding it.
Well it shown that Tetra hols it in a similar fashion to a sword doesn't mean that she will use it like one. Also doing more research that is a knife and not a dagger but still it's used differently than a sword or a dagger.

"If you hold a dagger vertically, the top half of the blade will be identical to the bottom half. A knife will tend to have only one cutting edge. If it has two, they will offer different degrees of seration, allowing you to cut through different types of material. Also, a dagger will have a point where many knives will have a rounded end. Essentially, a dagger is for stabbing and is a weapon, a knife is primarily for cutting and slicing and while it can be used as a weapon, it isn't normally meant to be one."
Ben Hendy, Southampton UK


Dose make sense because she could use it on the ship for non combat needs only using it for a weapon during battles.


As for the brawl files all we knew is that Tetra had the code name Toon Sheik or Tetra could of possibly never been in. We can't know the ideas or possibilities of a character just from a few code names so we can't say we know what the devs had in mind. Development is new and I don't believe they would make a character a clone just because there was plans for it years back, especially a person like Sakurai that is able create original move-sets for characters who don't even have much to work with like Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, or Pit.
 
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ToothiestAura

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Since Toon Link can't even use his own unique items, I don't see Tetra using them.
The same reason I think Toon Zelda will be a clone is the reason I think Tetra will be one.
Toon Link and Brawl's data.
Considering that what was found on Brawl's disc was "Toon Zelda & Sheik" it seems reasonable to think of her as a Shiek clone. However, we're rating them separately not as a transformation type deal. If we were, I would be more inclined to think that Tetra would be a clone as well.
 

andimidna

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Well it shown that Tetra hols it in a similar fashion to a sword doesn't mean that she will use it like one. Also doing more research that is a knife and not a dagger but still it's used differently than a sword or a dagger.

"If you hold a dagger vertically, the top half of the blade will be identical to the bottom half. A knife will tend to have only one cutting edge. If it has two, they will offer different degrees of seration, allowing you to cut through different types of material. Also, a dagger will have a point where many knives will have a rounded end. Essentially, a dagger is for stabbing and is a weapon, a knife is primarily for cutting and slicing and while it can be used as a weapon, it isn't normally meant to be one."
Ben Hendy, Southampton UK


Dose make sense because she could use it on the ship for non combat needs only using it for a weapon during battles.


As for the brawl files all we knew is that Tetra had the code name Toon Sheik or Tetra could of possibly never been in. We can't know the ideas or possibilities of a character just from a few code names so we can't say we know what the devs had in mind. Development is new and I don't believe they would make a character a clone just because there was plans for it years back, especially a person like Sakurai that is able create original move-sets for characters who don't even have much to work with like Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, or Pit.
Would the hitbox for a sword or dagger actually differ from that of a small sword?
Wouldn't it just be like Toon Link's but smaller?
The serrated edge degree thing seems far too complicated to turn into something notable in a fast moving fighter such as Smash.
She could be made unique, but like I said before, they'd have to make up new moves for her.
Sakurai could make up entirely new moves for every character. So don't over-consider something like this when rating a character on a uniqueness thread.
The same thing could be said for every character every week, even Toon Zelda right now.
Sakurai could make her ride Toon Epona backwards while wielding a staff that can shoot fire and ice if he really wanted to.
But that doesn't mean we should consider it.
Sure, it's possible she could take things from Toon Link, but if she was added, I doubt she'd do that. And I don't see her knife as potential for uniqueness. Therefore I can't find any uniqueness in the character other than would could be given from other characters or be completely made up.
 
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OctiVick

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Would the hitbox for a sword or dagger actually differ from that of a small sword?
Wouldn't it just be like Toon Link's but smaller?
The serrated edge degree thing seems far too complicated to turn into something notable in a fast moving fighter such as Smash.
She could be made unique, but like I said before, they'd have to make up new moves for her.
Sakurai could make up entirely new moves for every character. So don't over-consider something like this when rating a character on a uniqueness thread.
The same thing could be said for every character every week, even Toon Zelda right now.
Sakurai could make her ride Toon Epona backwards while wielding a staff that can shoot fire and ice if he really wanted to.
But that doesn't mean we should consider it.
Sure, it's possible she could take things from Toon Link, but if she was added, I doubt she'd do that. And I don't see her knife as potential for uniqueness. Therefore I can't find any uniqueness in the character other than would could be given from other characters or be completely made up.
> Knives and Swords are different weapons with different ranges so if she dose get it it's the first time we are seeing a weapon like that meaning it's a unique weapon choice even if they are both blades.
> I only used the quote saying that knives where more for slashing biased combat rather than how sword users can use stabs and other techniques.
> I mentioned Sakurai because I want to make note of how he deals with making characters and how it should be brought into consideration.
> Other characters have taken moves/abilities that are not theirs or had original move-sets in general own so I don't see why this would be any different.
> If a custom move-set is needed it would need to fit the character like how CF move-set fits for him although its new and never seen unlike the example you have given.
> A character with a custom/borrowed move-set can still be original/unique as long as it fits the character.
 

BluePikmin11

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Well while I get used to new layout, I'm going to end this day.

Today we are rating the Wind Mage (I think), Vaati. I don't really know much about him other than that.

Remember analyses are recommended. You may give just a grade if you want. :)

Tagging @ Autumn ♫ Autumn ♫ for Vaati.
 

Autumn ♫

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Vaati- A+
Contrary to popular belief, Vaati has much more moveset potential than just using wind in different ways. Vaati also has the ability to throw fire, summon eyes that shoot beams at you, throw spikes, shoot electric balls, cause rocks to fall from the sky(simular to K.Rool's cannon balls in DKC1), the ability to turn people into stone(work best as a grab), teleportation, and transforming into Vaati Reborn. It is also mentioned in Minish Cap that he's a very good swordfighter too. Along with the already said, ability to use wind. With all of this in mind, one could make a very unique moveset with him. Vaati also would be the only Toon character that would have no chance of being a clone, which is a nice plus.

Onto his body shape and size, it's very simular to Toon Link's, however, due to their own unique abilities, they'd play almost nothing alike. Vaati would also be the smallest mage and villain, giving some nice diversity to the roster rather than just tall and big mages and villains.

So overall, I'd give him an A+
 
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BluePikmin11

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Summoning eyes that shoot beams. Ooooh.. I like that part about Vaati. Maybe you can have fiery winds and electric winds since he is a wind mage. Or maybe you can make the electro-balls and fireballs move faster if you use the wind move.
 
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Vaati: A-

@ Autumn ♫ Autumn ♫ covered most of what had to be said. Vaati uses wind magic, but seeing as this was mostly, and correctly skipped over as not the only thing he can do, I will go into my thoughts on the application of this type of magic, just because I find it of interest. Wind magic has not been done before in Smash Bros, the closest thing would be the Mach Tornado (which hardly counts) or Water Gun/FLUDD in terms of effect. Wind magic is invisible and allows for a good amount of mind game potential, as well as fun hitboxes that can be vastly different from other Zelda or Earthbound magic users. Although it may seem counter-intuitive to have "invisible attacks," it would simply be made up for by overly-expressive and telegraphed animations on part of Vaati, all very in-line for the villain. I've seen entire movesets for this character made up of wind magic and it honestly can work, but that is only a small part of what he can do. There are summons, transformations and non-wind elemental magic. All in all, a versatile magician that is easily personalized compared to his competition.
 
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ToothiestAura

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Vaati: A
Vaati has enough abilities to make him unique. He uses wind magic which has yet to be seen in Smash (Zelda's Up Special hardly counts). Wind could create a lot of knockback with low damage, or simply push. He also has access to other magic, I've seen him use fire and electric magic for sure. Summoning eyes to works as a sort of turret could be quite interesting as well. He could cycle through his various forms (or save them for his Final Smash) and I believe he could teleport as well. There is mention of him having skill as a swordsman, but another Zelda Sword user (or another sword user at all) is not what Smash needs. He should stay a Mage. Too bad he's sort of a minor villain, but he's been in more than one game at least.
 

Freduardo

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Vaati: A

A good spellcaster, has three separate bossfights to choose his move sets from, one with three forms. Good mythos, cool design. From an awesome Zelda spinoff that needs a third installment badly. Has movesets on his awesome character thread.

Plus if he's in I definitely get an Ezlo trophy to read about.
 
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andimidna

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Vaati is pretty unique.
A- would probably suit him well.
Characters such as Pikachu, Ness, and Lucas already have electric attacks.
Wind would mostly likely work the same way as Mario,s and Squirtle's water.
However, he has more than one form to work with.
His dark bat eye form could show up somehow.
But I think his Wrath and other form I can't remember would more likely be alternate costumes.
Maybe more of a B+ kind of character, but I don't see him cloning anybody.
 

BluePikmin11

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I see plenty to play with wind, it could complement a new gameplay style.
I see it as the key move with Vaati, to send back projectiles or even controlling for bigger power.
 

Autumn ♫

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I love how I was one of the lowest tier voters for Vaati, and I'm the #1 supporter of him. I love you guys.

I swear, if you guys are April Fooling me...

EDIT: I just noticed that there's an S tier. Going to have to change my vote to an A+
 
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Sobreviviente

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uh i missed tetra :'(

Wind Mage vaaty is the giant eye form (my bet on the character), regular Vaaty is what everyone is talking about.

The mayority of his power in human form comes from the magic cap he use, something OP as ****, without it he only has the power he stole from princess zelda, mainly wind magic, so, he will use zeldas up B because is wind related :p

The abbility to turn people into stones is cool enough, btw
 
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Shorts

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Okay, not bad. I give Vaati a solid B - / C

I could see him playing something like this:
B Cyclone : Vaati Unleashes a small cylone in front of him. When used in the air it dissipates into an attack with many hitboxes, but not much power.

B> Monster Summon: Like King Dedede's waddle dee summon, but its not a throw, just a summon

BV Pecori Slash: Uses a flury of sword slices.

B^ Teleport: Herp derp

FS Monster Form

I
 
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BluePikmin11

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We have pretty good ratings this day, Vaati has gotten an average A- from the users here.

Today we are rating two Sheikahs, Impa and Toon Sheik. Can Impa prove that she has the moves to differentiate from Sheik, and even Toon Sheik?

Remember analyses are recommended. You may give just a grade if you want. :)

Tagging @LaniusShrike @HylianHeroBigBoss and @ Diddy Kong Diddy Kong for their input on Impa's moveset.
 

Jason the Yoshi

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I honestly think Impa would be a clone of Sheik, but her down b move would be something about the Shadow Temple. Final Smash? Eh, idk, I'm gonna tag @pizzadudemanguy to see if he has any suggestions.

Toon Sheik would be a lesser faster clone of Sheik though.
 

Diddy Kong

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Okay so moveset imputs for Impa?

Things she could pull from:

-Her role as Sage of Shadows:
Invisibility, shadow-based attacks (purple fire like Mewtwo and Ganondorf), dark shaman-like magic, Lens of Truth, slowing down time. Also: various ninja weapons OoT Impa has in her official art, and uses in the manga.* And of course, she can also use the Deku Nuts to stun enemies.
*All these attacks are made up, but would make sence for Impa to have similar to say, Fox and Captain Falcon's movesets.

-Her abilities in Skyward Sword:
High jumping, magical orb attacks, time travelling, an extremely powerful barrier attack, has fought monsters of screen. Impa has also fought in the first war against Demise, making her an extremely skilled warrior, resulting in becoming the Godess Hylia's handpicked warrior to protect her mortal form (:zelda:). She can also maybe use some of the weapons in Skyward Sword that Link won't use. Like the Whip for grabs, or others.

It's also highly likely it's Impa who was shown in the Hyrule Warriors trailer. She is carrying a huge longsword in it, and could likely use that in her moveset to create a fighting style nobody else has ever had.

Combine all these features, and tell me again Impa doesn't have all the means to be a completely unique character.

Sure, she could end up similar to Sheik. But if that were to happen, Sheik likely wouldn't be in herself.

Toon Sheik can't be anything else than a Sheik clone. The ****ing character doesn't even excist why is it even being debated? :facepalm:
 
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ToothiestAura

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I'm fairly certain Toon Sheik just meant Tetra.

@ Diddy Kong Diddy Kong Where in the trailer is that? I've seen it a few times but I never noticed an unknown character.
 

Diddy Kong

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Close to where Link fights King Dodongo. You hardly notice her cause she is standing still, with her back only showing, but am quite 97% sure it's her.

 

ToothiestAura

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That's a generic soldier; the scene is full of them. That's also a normal sword, but the sheath does look enormous.
I'd imagine Impa would look like a ninja not a knight.
 

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That's no common soldier. She doesn't move at all during the scene like them. The design she is using is slim, and has the one braid similary to SS Impa, but the armor and hair color match OoT Impa. A perfect mixture of designs. It makes sence she is fighting with the soldiers, as she serves as sort of 'captain' or general of them anyway in OoT.
 

loganhogan

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
816
Impa:
C tier

She's unique in design and a quick and nimble fighter but ultimately not anything the Zelda series hasn't seen. I'd rate her a B if it's the older or Fat Impa though imagine fighting an elderly or fat ninja. :troll:

Toon Sheik:
F tier

Clone material especially if paired with Toon Zelda.
 
D

Deleted member

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Impa: D

Prior to Skyward Sword, all that Impa did for the most part was magical spells that Zelda basically stole from her when she made her appearance in Smash Bros. The fat court magician Impa is a non-entity. Impa doesn't appear in any Zelda game after Ocarina of Time until Skyward Sword, showing off new tricks... although nothing elaborate. She has a few unimpressive fight scenes/a "beam struggle" with Ghirahim. She never actually fights close-range meaning all of the inspiration for her moveset is only applicable for long or medium-range, or using random items. There are spells or techniques to maybe inspire a set of specials, but past that she fits the ninja archetype taken up by Sheik. Same body shape, same basic character. At best it would be a situation akin to Wolf's where Impa has a unique moveset but areas of it follow a common formula created by existing Zelda reps, i.e. Sheik, Zelda.



Toon Sheik: F-

This is an original creation brought on by fan speculation and code in Brawl to suggest it may have existed, I agree that it's likely another term for Toon Zelda or Tetra, simply listed as "Sheik" to highlight that it's a down special transformation. Not only not a character, Toon Sheik is a direct clone of Sheik. There is almost nothing that she could do in this form that isn't outright invented out of thin air, as Sakurai could do for any character ever made to make them unique. One thing I thought was a bit too ridiculous to mention in Toon Zelda, is that the very concept of a "Toon" clone of another character is in of itself already done. Therefore Toon Sheik is as trite as can be imagined. You'd have to get quite creative to find something worse.
 
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