The Ultimate Smash Bros Canon Battle: Day 14: X vs Iggy

[NintenRob]

Welcome to the Ultimate Super Smash Bros Canon battle. This is a series I'll be running between here and Gamefaqs. 128 characters are competing (Mii Costumes were welcomed into the fray as they are semi playable).

Here's the bracket https://challonge.com/gu0py1ng


First the rules.

1. This is NOT a Death Battle. The opponent merely has to incapacitate the opponent. Death is allowed, but you can also by knocking out the opponent or rendering them useless.

2. There will be a strawpoll. But it will only take into account one third of the results. This is about Debate. This isn't meant to be a popularity contest. So which ever side argues the best will determine the results as judged by me, Smashboards winning debate will take be worth one third, and Gamefaqs will take the other third.

3. If it comes up, I've decided the arena will be set in a stadium the size of a baseball field. It's hard to determine what fairest here but I hope this will suffice.


I hope that covers everything.

I'll start the competition officially with the next post.

 

[NintenRob]

And so it begins

Our first competitors are

Young Link vs Pit
https://www.strawpoll.me/20127774

Who do you think is stronger between the two of them? Share your reasons below!

 

[Rizen]

I hate to say it but Pit has killed a god, Hades. That's more than YL has done. If Pit has his special god killer relics it's no contest.

 

[NintenRob]

I hate to say it but Pit has killed a god, Hades. That's more than YL has done. If Pit has his special god killer relics it's no contest.

For the sake of discussion.

Fierce Deity is pretty powerful, it annihilates the final boss Majora's Mask, and that's no push over. Its beams completely by passes any armour it has. Same with Odolwas shield. I could see it destroying Great Sacred Treasure before Pit even gets a chance.

Of course the opposite is also true. But an argument could be made if Pit even gets the Great Sacred Treasure, or if he'd even start inside it if he did. It's more of a vehicle, and you have to ask would, would Fox get the Arwing, Meta Knight the assistance of the Halberd?

Important questions, what do people here think?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I feel like Pit at his strongest could beat Fierce Deity Link.

I think its important to note that we don't have a very clear idea on how powerful Fierce Deity Link truly is. Sure he beat Majora, but... Majora seems a lot less powerful than some of the foes Pit has taken down. I can say with confidence that Pit can take down Majora, especially since he has holy power and the support of multiple gods.

The tricky part comes from limited information on Fierce Deity Link... Just how powerful is he?

I guess I'll just say... Fierce Deity Link could be very powerful but out of the stuff we have seen, I think Pit has more impressive proven feats.

 

[Lenidem]

I don't know anything about Kid Icarus, but although I'm a fan of Majora's Mask, I must say it's counter-intuitive to me to think of "Young Link" with the Fierce Deity Mask, probably just because Smash Bros.'s Young Link doesn't show a lot of Majora's Mask: he uses a fire arrow and a smaller version of regular Link's hookshot, but apart from that, he's mainly taken from Ocarina of Time - saddly. I'm still frustrated that his final smash has not been updated.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I agree with everybody else that Pit's experience battling gods puts him in a league above Young Link in terms of combat and power.

 

[NintenRob]

Argument definitely in Pits favour right now.

I will add though, killing a God, or being a god even, isn't much of a feat. God's capabilities vary from game to game and should be taken into account.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Argument definitely in Pits favour right now.

I will add though, killing a God, or being a god even, isn't much of a feat. God's capabilities vary from game to game and should be taken into account.

Worth noting, gods in KI can be revived and Hades is somehow alive to wish Pit well in the ending of Uprising.

The only god Pit has truly slain in Kid Icarus seems to be Medusa. To his credit, he has done it twice.

 

[Rizen]

The thing about Pit is he battled Hades with a special vehicle made by a god. If you don't count that he's a lot more on YL's level. He can't even fly without Palutena's help. It really depends on if Pit is allowed help from other gods or not.

 

[NintenRob]

Day over, let's see who wins

Spoiler

Pit and Young Link face each from across the field

Pit: You're no match for me!

Young Link: Hmmph

Young Link quickly transforms into Fierce Deity and fires off a barrage of beams.

Pit: ahh! Good thing I this is here, let's see how you compare to the Great Sacred Treasure!

Pit jumps into the Great Sacred Treasure, but the beams continue to fire off and it starts destroy the treasure.

Pit: You're Strong, but not strong enough!

The great sacred treasure starts to transform and zips out of the way of the sword beams, it's too fast for Link.

Pit: Take this!!!

Young Link: Ahhh!!!!

Pit swiftly takes out Young Link.

Pit: You're not the first God I've taken out.

Palutena: Pit, you just killed a kid

Pit: O_o

Pit wins, Both Gamefaqs and Smashboards Agreed Pit was the winner, Although Young Link won the poll. I don't think I'll do the battle write-up again though.

Today is brings a new match-up.

Chrom, The Ylissian Prince

Vs

Bowser, King of the Koopa

https://www.strawpoll.me/20139556

Who is stronger? You decide

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bowser.

Bowser is absurd.

Chrom isn't even a slouch. He's a peak human sword fighter (with some training with other weapons like lances) with a magical sword.

But Bowser is way too powerful. Bowser has survived a black hole. He has immense strength and all sorts of magical attacks, can breath fire, has all sorts of machines at his disposal and he's even athletic enough to compete in a huge variety of sports dispute his awkward body type. He's also a star child, meaning he's blessed with extraordinary power. Depending on the interpretation, that could mean he even has holy magic. I'm only scratching the surface and Bowser already seems like he can beat most characters out there. Heck the only time we've seen Bowser actually die was when he was dipped in lava. Even then it was only for a little while and future games have shown its less of a problem now.

Chrom really only has two ways of winning. If he gets his entire army, maybe he wins, but I don't think that should count, cause then Bowser should get his. That said, I think Chrom's army could beat Bowser's. Chrom's army is full of professional soldiers and mercenaries.

The only other way he can win is if Falchion somehow affects Bowser. Falchion has a powerful magic that makes it super effective against dragons. If Bowser somehow counts as a dragon, Falchion could do some real work but...

Falchion isn't a win button. It's just Chrom's only real hope. It's gonna be a huge uphill battle for Chrom to win.

I'll just page the resident Chrom fan. Opossum

Can Chrom beat Bowser? I'm not convinced he can.

 

[Opossum]

On the contrary, I actually would give this one to Chrom, and handily at that. Allow me to explain.

First, let's discuss Bowser's advantages: his size, his fire breath, his insane durability, and his jump height (and subsequent crash into the ground).

How does Chrom compare?

Let's talk the fire breath first. Bowser's fire is red. Assuming it's the same heat output as a flamethrower, this is about one thousand degrees Celsius. The thing is, Chrom has shown to be resistant to this sort of heat.

Enter Awakening chapter eighteen, Sibling Blades. These are lava tiles, and over time they encroach on Chrom and his army. If they're touched by lava, they take ten damage. Chrom is mandatory to deploy here, so Chrom takes ten damage from boiling lava. This lava is comparable in heat to Bowser's flames, and notably, Bowser himself is NOT immune to lava, as noted by Dry Bowser existing. As a result, lava is hotter than his own flames, seeing as his face doesn't melt when he breathes fire. Chrom was also bathed in Naga's own flames during the Awakening Rite, and came out unscathed. Chrom is super heat resistant, leading to Bowser losing his advantage with the fire breath.

Let's move on to jump height and the Bowser Bomb. How could Chrom avoid such a fast and devastating move? Well, Chrom actually has superhuman reaction speed. Take note of this Awakening cutscene.

Chrom is able to see Grima's lightning strike and react fast enough to push himself and Lucina out of the way.
This is outlandishly good reaction speed. The Bowser Bomb is no longer an advantage. His size is also a non-issue considering Chrom has gone toe to toe with Grima.

Let's move on to Bowser's biggest perceived advantage: his durability, something he's known for in Smash AND in canon.

The thing to remember is that Chrom isn't peak human in strength...he's well above superhuman.

Allow me to share a key set of lines from chapter six of Awakening:


"Marth"
Good evening to you.

Chrom
How did you get in here?

"Marth"
The cleft in the castle wall, behind the maple grove.

Chrom
There? But how would you...? Ugh.

Robin
You know the place, Chrom?

Chrom
Yes. I bashed in part of the wall while training the Shepherds. It's only a small hole, and I'd thought it well concealed, but...

For perspective, here is Ylisse Castle.

According to Lucina, those are maple trees, putting the smallest of these stone castle walls at a height of roughly fifty feet. In medieval times, you would need siege engines to bust down these sorts of walls, with multiple blows.

Chrom, during routine training and not even a life or death battle, busted a human-sized hole in a fifty foot tall stone castle wall. And considering he stopped, obviously, upon noticing it, it was likely in a single blow. This is roughly comparable to the force of a wrecking ball.

And lastly, there's Falchion. Falchion was specifically made from Naga's fangs to pierce the nigh-unpiercable hides of dragons, and going by how Fire Emblem classifies dragons, Bowser CERTAINLY qualifies. The Falchion in Awakening goes as far as being effective against Wyvern Riders due to their mounts when this wasn't the case before it was reforged (ie, past Marth's time). Bowser is known for his nigh impenetrable hide...but so are the dragons Falchion is specifically designed to pierce and kill.


Bowser is one tough cookie. He could kill most of the roster if he wanted to. But Chrom is essentially tailor made to be his counter, while possessing incredible strength of his own.

Chrom is heat resistant, incredibly strong, and has an unbreakable weapon made specifically to kill dragons with strong hides, all while having great reaction time. I give this to Chrom.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Let's talk the fire breath first. Bowser's fire is red. Assuming it's the same heat output as a flamethrower, this is about one thousand degrees Celsius. The thing is, Chrom has shown to be resistant to this sort of heat.

Bowser typically uses red fire, but he can easily spit blue fire as well. Here's a clip of him breathing blue fire in NSMB.

Enter Awakening chapter eighteen, Sibling Blades. These are lava tiles, and over time they encroach on Chrom and his army. If they're touched by lava, they take ten damage. Chrom is mandatory to deploy here, so Chrom takes ten damage from boiling lava. This lava is comparable in heat to Bowser's flames, and

Quick question, does the game actually show Chrom standing in lava, when the camera zooms in?

Bowser himself is NOT immune to lava, as noted by Dry Bowser existing

This is a weakness Bowser has yes, but its now a major one anymore.

Newer games like New Super Mario Bros Wii. and New Super Mario Bros. 2 show him casually standing in lava with no side effects.

Regardless, Chrom can't take advantage of that weakness.

Let's move on to jump height and the Bowser Bomb. How could Chrom avoid such a fast and devastating move? Well, Chrom actually has superhuman reaction speed. Take note of this Awakening cutscene.
Chrom is able to see Grima's lightning strike and react fast enough to push himself and Lucina out of the way.
This is outlandishly good reaction speed. The Bowser Bomb is no longer an advantage. His size is also a non-issue considering Chrom has gone toe to toe with Grima.

Oh please, dodging lightning is something Mario characters do all the time. You want one example?

https://www.mariowiki.com/The_Wastelands

In Super Mario Striker's Charged, lightning strikes the ball on occasion. Not only is Bowser able to dodge this lightning, but he's fast enough that he can potentially play hot potato too.

Chrom, during routine training and not even a life or death battle, busted a human-sized hole in a fifty foot tall stone castle wall. And considering he stopped, obviously, upon noticing it, it was likely in a single blow. This is roughly comparable to the force of a wrecking ball.

Impressive feat. It's a good thing you're underestimating Bowser's durability.

And lastly, there's Falchion. Falchion was specifically made from Mila's fangs to pierce the nigh-unpiercable hides of dragons, and going by how Fire Emblem classifies dragons, Bowser CERTAINLY qualifies. The Falchion in Awakening goes as far as being effective against Wyvern Riders due to their mounts when this wasn't the case before it was reforged (ie, past Marth's time). Bowser is known for his nigh impenetrable hide...but so are the dragons Falchion is specifically designed to pierce and kill.

And yet, Falchion does not one shot kill dragons. It does MORE damage to dragons, dragons can survive several blows if they are strong enough.

Considering Bowser is durable enough to survive a black hole, I'm not so sure the Falchion can do him in. Unless you're saying Falchion can beat something that can survive the destruction of matter with that 15 Might stat.

You are also forgetting Chrom's weakness to magic. He naturally has low (though not pitiable) resistance. Bowser is a fairly accomplished magic user and can use all sorts of offensive and defensive spells. He can shrink people, make himself giant and even turn people into blocks. Bowser can easily exploit Chrom's weaknesses.

All that said... Bowser has even more aces up his sleeves. He can use Mario power ups like stars, double cherries, cat suits and mushrooms (and has even been shown to save some for later). Can Chrom fight an enemy who can become invincible? How about an army of those enemies? What if we gave Bowser the Star Rod, yet another item that makes him invincible?

Bowser's main strength isn't just his raw stats, its also his insane versatility.

Also, why are you treating the Bowser Bomb like its a trump card? It's a run of the mill ground pound.

 

[NintenRob]

What if we gave Bowser the Star Rod, yet another item that makes him invincible?

Ahh some juicy debate, I love it. But I do want to point out Paper Bowser =/= Bowser. Paper Jam establishes them as separate entities.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

But I do want to point out Paper Bowser =/= Bowser. Paper Jam establishes them as separate entities.

Mario Party 5 has the star spirits present in 3D form.

This implies the star rod exists in the 3D world.

Who's to say it wouldn't do the same thing?

 

[NintenRob]

Mario Party 5 has the star spirits present in 3D form.

This implies the star rod exists in the 3D world.

Who's to say it wouldn't do the same thing?

It could, but Bowser has never used it.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

I know little about FE power levels but I can't imagine Chrom winning here. Falchion may be effective against dragons but I doubt those dragons are on Bowser's level. We are comparing realistic looking dragons to the big bad of the wacky Mario universe. This dude can throw a huge cannonball high up into the air, summon meteors able to tag a spaceship, pull piles of minions out of hammerspace and that's not even half of it. Chrom is just a guy with sword in comparison, one who's very skilled and stronger than the average swordsman I'm sure but I don't think he can compete with Bowser's greater power and versatility.

Also, Chrom seems naturally reliant on his weapon to win battles while Bowser doesn't need one. He's got a flame breath, spike shell and those muscles to spare. If Bowser is able to disarm Chrom of his sword, he's toast.

 

[Opossum]

Bowser typically uses red fire, but he can easily spit blue fire as well. Here's a clip of him breathing blue fire in NSMB.

But at the same time, look at the blue fire balls. They're incredibly slow! Chrom's reflexes are much too fast to get hit by it. By using Mario's known height, 5'1", and the in game timer, we can see that the fireball travels at a speed of 6.25 feet per second, or roughly 4.26 miles per hour. This is less than the speed of a light jog. Because this is the only instance of blue fire being used, we must assume it's Bowser's max speed for fire that hot. As such, Chrom, a trained soldier, can easily avoid a projectile that slow.

Quick question, does the game actually show Chrom standing in lava, when the camera zooms in?

Actually, yes.

Oh please, dodging lightning is something Mario characters do all the time. You want one example?

https://www.mariowiki.com/The_Wastelands

In Super Mario Striker's Charged, lightning strikes the ball on occasion. Not only is Bowser able to dodge this lightning, but he's fast enough that he can potentially play hot potato too.

Fair point. We'll come back to this though.

Impressive feat. It's a good thing you're underestimating Bowser's durability.


And yet, Falchion does not one shot kill dragons. It does MORE damage to dragons, dragons can survive several blows if they are strong enough.

Considering Bowser is durable enough to survive a black hole, I'm not so sure the Falchion can do him in. Unless you're saying Falchion can beat something that can survive the destruction of matter with that 15 Might stat.

You are also forgetting Chrom's weakness to magic. He naturally has low (though not pitiable) resistance. Bowser is a fairly accomplished magic user and can use all sorts of offensive and defensive spells. He can shrink people, make himself giant and even turn people into blocks. Bowser can easily exploit Chrom's weaknesses.

All that said... Bowser has even more aces up his sleeves. He can use Mario power ups like stars, double cherries, cat suits and mushrooms (and has even been shown to save some for later). Can Chrom fight an enemy who can become invincible? How about an army of those enemies? What if we gave Bowser the Star Rod, yet another item that makes him invincible?

Bowser's main strength isn't just his raw stats, its also his insane versatility.

Well, this makes it a lot more interesting then.

Should Bowser gain access to any power ups, Chrom, in turn, gains access to the Convoy...which can potentially have unlimited stat boosters. Now we can assume that Chrom's stats, for all intents and purposes, are capped. This also ENTIRELY fixes Chrom's Resistance issue. The problem with Chrom's Res was the growth rate, not the cap. Chrom's stat spread as a fully capped Great Lord is as follows: 80 HP, 44 Strength, 30 Magic, 41 Skill, 42 Speed, 46 Luck, 41 Defense, and 39 Res. By giving Bowser access to power ups, you give Chrom convoy access, allowing for other shenanigans like the use of Beast Killer lances, which would harm Bowser considering he's non-human.

Now we get to talk Skills, the fun part! If Chrom has Limit Breaker, his stats get even better. Rightful King, which Chrom gets as his canon Great Lord promotion, boosts Skill activation by 10%. Chrom also has a fantastic boon in Aether, which has an activation rate based on half his skill stat. With Limit Breaker, Chrom's max Skill stat is 51%, half of which is 25.5%. Rightful King brings this to 35.5%. Aether is a two strike attack that not only heals Chrom for half the damage dealt (increasing survivability when factoring in Bowser's weakness to Falchion), and the second hit activating Luna, which halves the opponent's defense. Bowser's insane durability becomes much less of an issue when you can pierce his defense so easily with a massively strong attack WITH effective damage.

But Bowser can dodge lightning as well, just like Chrom. So now what? Well, Chrom gets access to Hit Rate+20 as a Sniper, increasing his odds of connecting a hit by 20%. This gives him an accuracy edge over Bowser because he will hit hard, connect more often, and deliver more consecutive blows due to his speed.

There is also Aegis, which Chrom gets as a Paladin, which upon activation makes Chrom take half damage from magic, dragon breath, and bows (though this latter bit doesn't apply to Bowser lol).

So with a skillset of Limit Breaker, Aether, Rightful King, Hit Rate+20, and Aegis, Chrom is more than equipped to handle what Bowser can throw at him.

It's also worth noting that Bowser didn't emerge from the Black Hole unscathed...he lost a good amount of mass, to say the least. He has insane durability but he isn't perfect.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

But at the same time, look at the blue fire balls. They're incredibly slow! Chrom's reflexes are much too fast to get hit by it. By using Mario's known height, 5'1", and the in game timer, we can see that the fireball travels at a speed of 6.25 feet per second, or roughly 4.26 miles per hour. This is less than the speed of a light jog. Because this is the only instance of blue fire being used, we must assume it's Bowser's max speed for fire that hot. As such, Chrom, a trained soldier, can easily avoid a projectile that slow.

What the **** is the death battle shenanigans?

That said, the point was that Bowser can do it. Not that he would use it to win necessarily.

Actually, yes.

That does not look like lava.

That looks like ground near lava. There is still rock there. I was under the impression Chrom could stand, feet submerged in lava and live.

I am left disappointed. Bowser can do that now.

Should Bowser gain access to any power ups, Chrom, in turn, gains access to the Convoy...which can potentially have unlimited stat boosters. Now we can assume that Chrom's stats, for all intents and purposes, are capped. This also ENTIRELY fixes Chrom's Resistance issue. The problem with Chrom's Res was the growth rate, not the cap. Chrom's stat spread as a fully capped Great Lord is as follows: 80 HP, 44 Strength, 30 Magic, 41 Skill, 42 Speed, 46 Luck, 41 Defense, and 39 Res. By giving Bowser access to power ups, you give Chrom convoy access, allowing for other shenanigans like the use of Beast Killer lances, which would harm Bowser considering he's non-human.

I acknowledge this and anticipated this response. That said, Beast Killers are a no go.

If Bowser counts as a dragon, then he doesn't count as a beast. Fire Emblem doesn't have any units that count as both. They don't work on manaketes, so they shouldn't work on Bowser. Unless you think he counts more as a beast in which he loses the Falchion vulnerability.

Now we get to talk Skills, the fun part! If Chrom has Limit Breaker, his stats get even better. Rightful King, which Chrom gets as his canon Great Lord promotion, boosts Skill activation by 10%. Chrom also has a fantastic boon in Aether, which has an activation rate based on half his skill stat. With Limit Breaker, Chrom's max Skill stat is 51%, half of which is 25.5%. Rightful King brings this to 35.5%. Aether is a two strike attack that not only heals Chrom for half the damage dealt (increasing survivability when factoring in Bowser's weakness to Falchion), and the second hit activating Luna, which halves the opponent's defense. Bowser's insane durability becomes much less of an issue when you can pierce his defense so easily with a massively strong attack WITH effective damage.

There is one problem with this.

Aether relies on chance. The stars could align for Chrom to win, but its more likely that Aether doesn't activate (My FE runs would know). None of Bowser's abilities rely on chance so by default he's more consistent. Chrom could easily get unlucky and have none of his battle skills activate.

I will admit. Halving defense seems really bad but look at it this way. That's only part of durability. Considering how durable he is, its probably quite a lot at his strongest. To put things into perspective, in Bowser's Inside Story, he starts 75 HP. At his weakest he's almost as durable as Chrom. Near the end of the game he can easily reach 300 and higher. To put it in perspective that's more HP than Grima on Lunatic+ And I'm being nice and using the playable version, if I wanted to use the boss version from the same game, he can get up to 3,000 HP. Oh, if I want to get meaner, I can use Bowser X and say he has 7,000 HP.

Don't even make me bring up Bowser's other stats. They dwarf Chrom's.

But Bowser can dodge lightning as well, just like Chrom. So now what? Well, Chrom gets access to Hit Rate+20 as a Sniper, increasing his odds of connecting a hit by 20%. This gives him an accuracy edge over Bowser because he will hit hard, connect more often, and deliver more consecutive blows due to his speed.

Hold on, if we're saying Bowser and Chrom are roughly the same speed, why does Chrom get to hit twice?

That said, let's look at it this way, Bowser is known for punches right? Those could count as gauntlets meaning they can get up to four hits per turn. If anything I think their speed is tied.

There is also Aegis, which Chrom gets as a Paladin, which upon activation makes Chrom take half damage from magic, dragon breath, and bows (though this latter bit doesn't apply to Bowser lol).

So with a skillset of Limit Breaker, Aether, Rightful King, Hit Rate+20, and Aegis, Chrom is more than equipped to handle what Bowser can throw at him.

Can these skills prevent Chrom from being turned into a brick?

Moreover, these are impressive options, but you still didn't address the power ups.

Invincibility, clones, increases in size (and thus stats) and all sorts of other power I haven't mentioned can be incredible boons.

It's also worth noting that Bowser didn't emerge from the Black Hole unscathed...he lost a good amount of mass, to say the least. He has insane durability but he isn't perfect.

Eh?

No he didn't. Gotta remember he was normal size in Galaxy 1 for the whole thing.

He looks exactly the same size. What mass did he lose?

Still think Bowser wins and now math is on my side!

 

[Perkilator]

Chrom, no question. Even Bowser hasn’t accomplished some of the things Chrom has.

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Whenever I hear about the blackhole feat I usually think about how that's invalid as we aren't actually shown Bowser tanking the thing and that the only reason we see him alive at the end was because of Rosalina's reset shenanigans.

Then I remember the end of Galaxy 2 having one as well, which he legitimately survives on his own. I feel like alot of people might confuse those two feats.

 

[Opossum]

What the **** is the death battle shenanigans?

That said, the point was that Bowser can do it. Not that he would use it to win necessarily.

My point was that because this is the only instance, to my knowledge, of Bowser using blue fire, thus making it an outlier, the speed should be considered his top speed. After all, it should, in theory, take much more effort to make blue fire than red fire.

That does not look like lava.

That looks like ground near lava. There is still rock there. I was under the impression Chrom could stand, feet submerged in lava and live.

I am left disappointed. Bowser can do that now.

It's hardened lava above molten lava, as you can see with it seeping through the cracks. Either way this is an example of extreme heat resistance.

I acknowledge this and anticipated this response. That said, Beast Killers are a no go.

If Bowser counts as a dragon, then he doesn't count as a beast. Fire Emblem doesn't have any units that count as both. They don't work on manaketes, so they shouldn't work on Bowser. Unless you think he counts more as a beast in which he loses the Falchion vulnerability.

Okay this one was my bad lmao. I was looking at the weapon weaknesses of Griffon Riders by accident since I clicked the wrong Wyvern promo.

There is one problem with this.

Aether relies on chance. The stars could align for Chrom to win, but its more likely that Aether doesn't activate (My FE runs would know). None of Bowser's abilities rely on chance so by default he's more consistent. Chrom could easily get unlucky and have none of his battle skills activate.

I will admit. Halving defense seems really bad but look at it this way. That's only part of durability. Considering how durable he is, its probably quite a lot at his strongest. To put things into perspective, in Bowser's Inside Story, he starts 75 HP. At his weakest he's almost as durable as Chrom. Near the end of the game he can easily reach 300 and higher. To put it in perspective that's more HP than Grima on Lunatic+ And I'm being nice and using the playable version, if I wanted to use the boss version from the same game, he can get up to 3,000 HP. Oh, if I want to get meaner, I can use Bowser X and say he has 7,000 HP.

Don't even make me bring up Bowser's other stats. They dwarf Chrom's.

My point here was to showcase that Chrom's Resistance wouldn't be considered a hindrance, as at his peak, his Resistance evens out with the rest of his stats.

As for Skill stats, I mainly brought them up to show activation rates. With the skill loadout I mentioned, Chrom will, on average, proc Aether on one out of every three strikes. In Soaring Slash alone, which Chrom uses in the Two Falchions cutscene, Chrom strikes about four or five times on the descent in quick succession. In theory, Aether could proc on any of these hits and they come out quickly.

Hold on, if we're saying Bowser and Chrom are roughly the same speed, why does Chrom get to hit twice?

That said, let's look at it this way, Bowser is known for punches right? Those could count as gauntlets meaning they can get up to four hits per turn. If anything I think their speed is tied.

As mentioned above, I was mainly counting how Chrom can, on average, perform more attacks in a rapid pace than Bowser can, as he typically uses slower attacks.

Can these skills prevent Chrom from being turned into a brick?

As we've never seen the brick spell be used in game, it's an enigma as to how it works. Does it have a finite range? Can it miss? Must the incantation be spoken, and thus require prep time? We don't know. As such, it feels almost unfit to be used here as there are too many unknowns.

]Moreover, these are impressive options, but you still didn't address the power ups.

Invincibility, clones, increases in size (and thus stats) and all sorts of other power I haven't mentioned can be incredible boons.

Size shifting seems unhelpful here considering Chrom has taken down Grima, who is much larger than Bowser has ever canonically been. Invincibility is finite and as such, can be waited out due to dodge tanking with lightning reflexes.

That's essentially the big thing here. Both Chrom and Bowser have lightning level reflexes. As such, it should be nigh impossible for them to hit each other...however, Chrom can also use Hit+20 for a flat accuracy boost. This means, on average, Chrom will hit more often than Bowser, and with a weapon that is effective vs him, and with limitless durability. Essentially, it's a war of attrition, but due to Chrom's specialized skill set, I believe he'd win in the end.

Eh?

No he didn't. Gotta remember he was normal size in Galaxy 1 for the whole thing.

He looks exactly the same size. What mass did he lose?

Still think Bowser wins and now math is on my side!

I assumed you meant Galaxy 2. In the ending of Galaxy 1, there is no proof Bowser survived the black hole. If anything there's proof of the opposite: that everything save for Mario and Rosalina were wiped out and only came back after the latter remade the universe.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'm going to give it to Chrom. His strength is insane, and Grima appears at least as large as Bowser's biggest size we've seen to date.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's hardened lava above molten lava, as you can see with it seeping through the cracks. Either way this is an example of extreme heat resistance.

Less heat resistance than Bowser though.

My point here was to showcase that Chrom's Resistance wouldn't be considered a hindrance, as at his peak, his Resistance evens out with the rest of his stats.

As for Skill stats, I mainly brought them up to show activation rates. With the skill loadout I mentioned, Chrom will, on average, proc Aether on one out of every three strikes. In Soaring Slash alone, which Chrom uses in the Two Falchions cutscene, Chrom strikes about four or five times on the descent in quick succession. In theory, Aether could proc on any of these hits and they come out quickly.

Still up to chance though.

Regardless, I don't think it'd matter much with that 7000 HP.

As we've never seen the brick spell be used in game, it's an enigma as to how it works. Does it have a finite range? Can it miss? Must the incantation be spoken, and thus require prep time? We don't know. As such, it feels almost unfit to be used here as there are too many unknowns.

It was able to affect an entire kingdom. It's something that could theoretically work on Chrom.

I'll admit there are unknowns.

Size shifting seems unhelpful here considering Chrom has taken down Grima, who is much larger than Bowser has ever canonically been. Invincibility is finite and as such, can be waited out due to dodge tanking with lightning reflexes.

I'm going to give it to Chrom. His strength is insane, and Grima appears at least as large as Bowser's biggest size we've seen to date.

Now hold on here. Chrom only beat Grima due to fighting Grima's avatar who is no bigger than a person.

Chrom never felled the actual dragon. And to be frank, he couldn't.

That's essentially the big thing here. Both Chrom and Bowser have lightning level reflexes. As such, it should be nigh impossible for them to hit each other...however, Chrom can also use Hit+20 for a flat accuracy boost. This means, on average, Chrom will hit more often than Bowser, and with a weapon that is effective vs him, and with limitless durability. Essentially, it's a war of attrition, but due to Chrom's specialized skill set, I believe he'd win in the end.

Can Chrom dodge multiple lightning fast invincible Bowsers?

His strength is insane,

Well, looks like I gotta bring out the max stats here.

Let's go back and look at Bowser.

With Max stats, Bowser has an attack of 768.

Defense of 386.

Speed of 120.

And luck of 122.

If we're going by Chrom's stats, Chrom shouldn't be able to damage Bowser, and dies if Bowser hits him once. Funnily enough, Bowser is also faster and luckier than Chrom, meaning that his skills are actually worthless. Even with the halved defense of Aether, Bowser takes no damage.

How the battle would play out.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Now hold on a sec.

Whilst I believe Bowser could be physically stronger and more defensive than Chrom, both defining physical traits of the Koopa King granted, Bowser is nearly always showcased as being slow as molasses in both the sports titles and the regular Super Mario Bros. games.

If we're pulling random stats from outside the traditional mainline games as we appear to be with Bowser's RPG stats, Chrom's speed stat is 147 in Fire Emblem Warriors.

Honestly if Bowser is considered lightning fast, the likes of Toad, Yoshi and Diddy Kong must be considered able to run at the speed of freaking light...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bowser is nearly always showcased as being slow as molasses in both the sports titles and the regular Super Mario Bros. games.

He's not slow in the mainline Mario games. He can get pretty fast when he wants to.

If we're pulling random stats from outside the traditional mainline games as we appear to be with Bowser's RPG stats, Chrom's speed stat is 147 in Fire Emblem Warriors.

I'm okay with that.

I mean, both can react to lightning anyways.

Honestly if Bowser is considered lightning fast, the likes of Toad, Yoshi and Diddy Kong must be considered able to run at the speed of freaking light...

Sure.

I mean, people have argued Mario is faster than Sonic.

It's not as strange as ya think.

 

[YoshiandToad]

Sure.

I mean, people have argued Mario is faster than Sonic.

It's not as strange as ya think.

Wait, seriously?
I'm genuinely curious now what the argument is.

I thought Sonic being faster than Mario was just a universally agreed upon thing seeing as being fast was Sonic's whole schtick.

 

[NintenRob]

Impressive points on both sides, I'm unsure who I'm leaning towards.

 

[lordvaati]

Bowser is....weird.
His strength(and size) is usually based on how much magic power he has at the moment- too little and he can be killed by lava like in NSMB. A whole lot and he can survive a freaking Supernova like in Galaxy.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wait, seriously?
I'm genuinely curious now what the argument is.

I thought Sonic being faster than Mario was just a universally agreed upon thing seeing as being fast was Sonic's whole schtick.

It has to do with pixels and how fast the screen moves in the classic games.

It's not an argument I buy necessarily, but its an argument that can be made.

 

[Schnee117]

Bowser has this round quite easily and a lot of why has already been covered.

He's just way too far beyond the scope of what Chrom is capable of. The Galaxy games are pretty ridiculous.

Edit: I also don't think FE:W stats should be considered if we're sticking with the regular FE formula

Chrom's max stats are:
HP:999, Str:135, Mag:28, Skl:147, Spd:147, Luk:115, Def:134, Res:99

Already you see the problem. That skill stat heavily affects skill activations. Aegis would always activate and Aether activates around 3/4s of the time.

Those stats are made for an entirely different game that works completely differently to normal. You have to consider how Warriors handles them. But you also have to consider Bowser's stats in this environment too.

 

[Opossum]

I really don't think Bowser's Galaxy feats are THAT ridiculous. Especially considering the arena size mentioned in the OP, his size there would actually be a huge disadvantage, considering he'd have less room to maneuver.

 

[Schnee117]

They're pretty stupid, especially in the context of going against an FE character.

Breaking a sizable hole in a super sturdy castle wall intended to hold under siege is impressive but it's not "can take hits from small asteroids launched by Mario that are outright deflected if they hit the shell" impressive. The black hole in Galaxy 2 is also replicated in Party 9, he's straight up able to resist it until he's weakened enough.

 

[Arthur97]

I like Chrom pretty good, and, yeah, Chrom is ludicrously strong (despite what Heroes might say, I'd say he might at least be around on par with Ike), but Bowser can be insanely durable (and can keep fighting even if his flesh is melted off to the bone). I don't think different types of RPG stats should be used, but I am willing to give Bowser's shell the benefit of the doubt and say it's even stronger than a castle wall. Even with Chrom's skill with a blade, a hit in the fleshy parts probably wouldn't stop him since, you know, dry Bowser. Now, Chrom could very potentially out maneuver him since even when Bowser jumps and stuff, he's not exactly super agile. But, again, that does little good against something you can't hurt.

Now, about the only shot Chrom probably has is if Bowser is somehow considered a dragon by Falchion. I mean...he's a reptile that breaths fire, so...maybe?

Even Mario (who is impressively strong himself) seemingly beats him more often than not by using the environment. So the battlefield might make some difference. It just doesn't seem too good for the prince. Bowser is just too durable. I suppose you might could argue for Chrom breaking Bowser's bones, but, come on. Especially if they're as hard as his shell.

Also, how is Chrom resistant to fire? Yeah, he was in a volcano, but, that's not being spewed with literal fire though it does speak to some impressive endurance. That said, fire might actually be one of Bowser's least threatening aspects since, as covered, it's pretty slow.

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but yes, Grima was, at its peak, much bigger than Bowser. The problem with that though, is that Chrom wasn't fighting the whole dragon, he was fighting a possessed human. Now, granted, said said human was probably incredibly strong, and he may very well have been able to had it been necessary. His predecessor did it potentially without a human target though Grima appeared to keep growing in size and may have been smaller when the first Exalt was around kind of like with another Grima encounter. Either way, it is theoretically possible that after being warped onto Grima's back, he could have felled the dragon simply by plunging it into a weak point in its scales.

 

[NintenRob]

Day Over

There were certainly some good arguments in favour of Chrom, I think if the debate had gone differently, I could see Chrom winning. But in the end I wasn't convinced he could really deal with Bowser impressive Durability and Size, as pointed out by many, Chrom didn't fight the dragon Grima one on one, he led an army on his back to take down the human sized avatar. Both Gamefaqs and Smashboards had very similar arguments, interestingly though, Chrom was able to overtake Bowser in the Poll, despite Bowsers longer time in front.

Bowser wins.

Next up is the Robotic Operating Buddy R.O.B. vs the Luminary Hero, Eleven

I wonder who will win? Today will likely be shorter since I was late today, sorry about that, I wasn't feeling very well.


https://www.strawpoll.me/20150501

 

[waddledeeonredyoshi]

Canon R.O.B is an irl toy, putting R.O.B on a higher plane of existence than the Luminary. Therefore, he wins.

For real tho, Eleven wins. Any person would be able to punt a R.O.B.

 

[Arthur97]

Don't really know much about Eleven (other than they should actually give him a real name), but R.O.B. doesn't have much to go on. Going with Smash, he's probably metal, so that helps. He's also got lasers and can fly, but...magic. I kind of doubt he's going to do well against magic. Though, Eleven is at least vulnerable to normal attacks. Then again, he kind of has an X factor of being the leader (and potentially most advanced) member of a race of ancient machines. Who knows what he can do. Maybe he actually has a way to counter magic, but with nothing to really back him up, it seems like a really one sided fight.

Even a subspace nuke might not be that helpful because of Zoom and the fact that he would be unlikely to use them so long as they still needed sacrifices. Plus, he's kind of out of other R.O.B.s.

Some might end up like this for the opposite reasons since some people just make their characters too insane *cough* Bayonetta *cough*. Then again, hopefully some others like Ness will get a chance to really shine. That, and maybe if they actually look at Palutena's abilities, they'll see how overhyped she may be because of her title.

 

[chikin]

Toy Robot vs Hero who defeated the Lord of Shadows.

Hmmm.......

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Day Over

There were certainly some good arguments in favour of Chrom, I think if the debate had gone differently, I could see Chrom winning. But in the end I wasn't convinced he could really deal with Bowser impressive Durability and Size, as pointed out by many, Chrom didn't fight the dragon Grima one on one, he led an army on his back to take down the human sized avatar. Both Gamefaqs and Smashboards had very similar arguments, interestingly though, Chrom was able to overtake Bowser in the Poll, despite Bowsers longer time in front.

Bowser wins.

Next up is the Robotic Operating Buddy R.O.B. vs the Luminary Hero, Eleven

I wonder who will win? Today will likely be shorter since I was late today, sorry about that, I wasn't feeling very well.


https://www.strawpoll.me/20150501

Is R.O.B. the literal toy or the subspace version?

If he's the subspace version, R.O.B. can then fly, shoot lazers and weaponized gyros and spin. He can also use his jet boosters to burn his opponents.

That said... this sounds a lot like a mob in a Dragon Quest game. R.O.B. has no counter to Eleven's magic and frankly, we don't know how durable R.O.B. is. Then again, that durability doesn't matter, cause Eleven can use Metal Slash and bypass any defenses R.O.B. may have.

That said, R.O.B. could theoretically use a subspace bomb to go down in a kamikaze style move, but considering that means there would be no winners, Eleven wins.

EDIT:

There's only one way R.O.B. can conceivably win.

If R.O.B. is allowed two R.O.B. buddies, R.O.B. could activate the subspace bomb and get Eleven.

But, Eleven has many was to get out of that situation such as destroying the R.O.B. buddies before the bomb goes off, or simply escaping with Zoom and Acceleratle.

R.O.B. only wins if Eleven decides to do literally nothing.