The Ultimate Smash 4 Ruleset Poll

[Yikarur]

Why the hell are people always talking about 8 Minute Timer? That doesn't make sense. The only numbers that are justifiable are 9.
2 Stocks should be played with 6 Minutes.
3 Stocks should be played with 9 Minutes.
1 Stock Rematches are played with 3 Minutes.
You'll get the idea: 3 Minutes per Stock.
Everything else has no base at all.

 

[Zamboni]

I like the idea of 3 stock 8 minutes; with another stock, people will be more inclined to try different things and play riskier. It won't eliminate camping by any means but it might help

 

[Ferntendo]

Guys keep in mind that certain stages don't have stage hazards or have no transformations when you have at least 5 players on the screen. all that would have to happen is that 3 players that aren't competing would have to SD. It may be tedious but it means more stages to be legal. so it's worth considering. I just threw that out there when the poll asked for anything else that regarded smash 4 at the end.

 

[Cassio]

@ Cassio

Interesting stuff. However, your message brings up factors that are not relevant to the analysis of this sampling. For one, we shouldn't exactly be concerned about technological exclusion with this sample -- most tournament attending smash players will have a Smashboards account.

Interestingly, the real crux of the bias seems to be missing from your post. Voluntary response sampling yields more skewed results because it biases towards people with strong opinions. If 2-stock support was vocal, and 3-stock support was so-so, you'd get a result that says the community overwhelmingly supports 2-stock matches. This could be the result even if the community was split 50/50 on the issue.

I also wonder how this survey developed the questions they asked. Are these all the factors we need to be considering with respect to ruleset research? If so, who was asked?

This works OK as a preliminary search poll, but I hope @ LiteralGrill understands the statistical pitfalls of this particular polling method. If this is to be used to guide future decisions regarding the preferred ruleset of the smash 4 community, I would recommend a more statistically grounded approach.

Side note - I would wager a guess to say that not everyone knows the ins-and-outs of each stage. Offering links within the poll that lead to an appropriately short summary of that stage's behavior would be useful. Similar to the effects of Mii weight/height, etc.

It was in there, but it was burried under an example

When newsweek or anyone else runs a poll on the Internet, individuals decide themselves whether to participate, so they constitute a voluntary response sample. But the people with strong opinions are more likely to participate, so it is very possible that the responses are not representative of the whole population.

I agree with your post, this was just a quote from a textbook with no context since I was in a rush/lazy, just to get the thought out there. But I can agree with what @ LiteralGrill said about using it to get the ball rolling.

Part of the issue is that this isnt smashboards exclusive, its being posted sporadically on twitter and facebook (in some regional smash groups but not others). If it were smashboards exclusive that might present its own problems since the community has shifted around in the era of esports/social media. Its hard to define the community anymore.

 

[SilverhandX]

Here's something I wrote in the 'extra comments' section that I think could use some extra opinions:
"Due to how common many camping strategies/options are used successfully even against high-level players(See Nairo v ADHD), it may be a good idea to remove the timer altogether. This would remove any incentive to excessively camp, as doing so would simply waste time and not get you any closer to victory due to the fact that you wouldn't be able to win by time. This would require more active pool monitors and would be difficult to manage, but it would also completely remove all hyper-camp strategies from the meta and make the only way to win by elimination of your opponent's stocks, promoting an offensive metagame. Any and all camping strategies would be pointless unless to tack on damage, and even so it wouldn't be very effective or potent as rushing in and getting combos. This theory/idea is a very risky one and would require a large amount of testing at Locals before getting use, though it could potentially drastically change the meta for the better if it ends up working."

I really like this idea, and it's personally how I play friendlies. I've just been pushing for 3 stock 8 mins, because I feel like it's more realistic that these TOs who apparently hate the Sm4sh scene might accept that. I think if people would actually try out 3 stock no timer at tournaments it could work out very well. There's no reason to play very campy if there's no winning by time.

 

[Waymas]

No latin america? ;(

 

[VanillaThunderbolt]

Didn't see in the original post, but how long is this going for? I can't wait to see results.

 

[misterOWAIN33]

When did people begin debating whether or not to replace FD with an Omega stage? Can't we have both?
My personal thought is to make FD/Omega one stage choice.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Oh my goodness... A lot of controversy's gonna be seen in this topic/poll. As the ruleset for this game can be questionable and undecidable (Which it was been like that for the longest time since the game's launch). Hopefully we'll have a ruleset that'll be clear as crystal after this poll reaches the deadline.

 

[iFezZz]

I just wanted to ask why Halberd isn't banned? I just feel like all hazards regardless of dodge ability or damage they do should be banned. because if we start letting some through why not all the stages? Also the roof on that stage is really low and the bottom of that stage is ass.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

It was in there, but it was burried under an example

I agree with your post, this was just a quote from a textbook with no context since I was in a rush/lazy, just to get the thought out there. But I can agree with what @ LiteralGrill said about using it to get the ball rolling.

Part of the issue is that this isnt smashboards exclusive, its being posted sporadically on twitter and facebook (in some regional smash groups but not others). If it were smashboards exclusive that might present its own problems since the community has shifted around in the era of esports/social media. Its hard to define the community anymore.

Fair point there too. With an ill-defined community, it makes trying to do statistics on that population... weird. I suppose one could prioritize people that go to tournaments, but then there'd have to be an arbitrarily set frequency of attendance used as a cutoff.

All in all? Not an easy job. Which is why I'm not trying it. Good luck to @ LiteralGrill though. Hopefully this provides an interesting start.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I really like this idea, and it's personally how I play friendlies. I've just been pushing for 3 stock 8 mins, because I feel like it's more realistic that these TOs who apparently hate the Sm4sh scene might accept that. I think if people would actually try out 3 stock no timer at tournaments it could work out very well. There's no reason to play very campy if there's no winning by time.

It has nothing to do with anyone hating Smash 4 or the scene. This can never work in any smash, and it will actually make camping the dominant playstyle. Many characters will never have any reason to take a risk with no timer, because if you're behind you can just run for as long as you want while never being forced to change your playstyle and try to comeback at high %. A situation where there can never be any need to damage the opponent quickly is a camper's dream.

Characters like Sonic, Pac-man and Rosalina would have a field day with no timer and top tier matchups would become an absolute snoozefest. Spacing and rushdown characters with no projectiles such as Marth and Mac desperately rely on the timer to force an approach when they take the lead. Without the timer these characters would be significantly disadvantaged, as the opponent could just continuously keep camping with projectiles and disjoints even while behind.

This is very, very basic competitive ruleset stuff and the fact that there are people who think the game would be better with no timer kind of proves that an online poll like this is gonna be completely useless without very serious data exclusions.

Edit: Not to mention certain matchups would take so long to actually finish it would destroy the spectator aspect of the game and make tourneys impossible to run in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

Why does nobody think of 2 stock 8 minutes? Jfc.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why does nobody think of 2 stock 8 minutes? Jfc.

That wouldn't fix one problem, 2 stock inherently makes it less of a skill test than 3 stock would.

 

[StabbityJoe]

Twilight Princess

 

[T0MMY]

I think it should be emphasized that a poll given to a general audience is going to be reflecting the general audience's preference for game settings and out-of-game "house rules".
Just looking at the posts here, the majority of them wanted items ON, characters banned/limited, and inclusion of controversial Stages.

The data isn't a problem, but how the data is interpreted and to what end the data is used is the real question. There are a minority of competitive players who spend money traveling and entering tournaments so they can have a fair match ranking them and there are a large majority of people who play casually, many of whom think their 8-man circle of friends & siblings high school event every other month means they have some kind of say on the regionals and nationals other people are sinking time and money into running for their competitive scene.

Anyone interested in what kind of rules this casual majority want to impose on the competitive community, just look at the posts in this thread. Now realize that this is Smashboards, where more competitive players are found and then include the fact that this poll has been shot out through social media to an even more generalized audience which most likely includes people outside Smash (other fighting games) or to people who do not play video games competitively at all.

Not only am I interested in the results like all of you, but I am also very much more interested in what these results will be used for.

 

[JagoTheTiger]

FINALLY some one made a pole for this, I felt like smash 4 was gona die.
There were to many banned things and it felt like only two stages existed. This will help the smash community alot. Thanks whoever made this pole c:

 

[Xanthous]

I've never participated in any Wii U tournaments but have participated in 3DS tournaments. The poll leaves that option out though.

 

[PandaEffect]

You can filter the results to only show tournament goers, don't worry on this one. With proper data mining this stuff could be very useful in the end.

No. It couldn't. It's an online poll without any actual sort of identification. It's no better than a strawpoll, and anyone willing to turn the results to their preferred choice will be able see through the "just a spectator" filter and put in whatever they want so their opinion is more valid in the context we want it to be.

Do this same standardized poll at weeklies / majors only upon registration and I bet I'd be extremely different.

 

[isaiah :)]

Why are people attacking Halberd? its a great map that can give advantage to different characters for a periods of time. The hazards of this map are minimum, the only real way you will an issue with them is if your opponent baits you or throws you in to them, otherwise you shouldn't be getting caught up by them often. If you are getting caught up by the stages basic hazards then you are just bad at avoiding them which is something you should work on and not blame the game. I believe the basic hazards dont obstruct the game play, but provide another way for a player to minipulate the stage to their advatage.

 

[Darklink401]

Walk-off stages:

Coliseum should be legal. There's no chaingrabbing anymore, and I feel any person with common sense would stay away from the edge, where they can die faster.

I don't see why Coliseum shouldn't be a counterpick stage, but I'm open to any reasons anyone might have against it XP

 

[The 0ne]

Gamer's layout changes for the entire game every single match and most (if not all) versions feature a Cave of Life. All can be learned, yes, but when you choose the stage you do not know what you are going to get. Imagine a much smaller version of temple that chooses a random layout every single time, and if you are not behind something, often resulting in being in one of the caves of like, you are in danger of being hit by an obvious but deadly hazard with a range far greater than the claw on Halberd with more kill power and damage. Many of the layouts promote extreme camping and with the caves of life would most likely result in matches going to time thanks to everybody constantly hiding from the hazard and living thanks to the Cave of Life.

Totally cool with Skyloft though. I like Wuhu as well.

I'd love to see it legal just because it's fun as hell. But I must say I dislike Halberd more than I want Gamer.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Going to share a few random facts as they come in on my Twitter mostly for fun. I'll give out all the data to the public in a week, but for now enjoy some graphs.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Darklink401]

I also feel that Pokemon Stadium 2 would be incredibly fun (aside from the Electric stage) to play on.

Makes sliding upsmash a thing~ (cuz of the ice transformation :D)

 

[Pazzo.]

"TIME TO CHANGE FATE!!"
-

 

[Kerpy Derp]

Personnaly I think it doesn't matter how it ends up we can time out at 5 minutes we can time out at 8 minutes rage sheik stops all games in an aggravating way a decent sheik troll can end anyone's good mood how long do you want to watch it.

 

[DrRek]

Guys keep in mind that certain stages don't have stage hazards or have no transformations when you have at least 5 players on the screen. all that would have to happen is that 3 players that aren't competing would have to SD. It may be tedious but it means more stages to be legal. so it's worth considering. I just threw that out there when the poll asked for anything else that regarded smash 4 at the end.

Why not just recreate with standardized custom stages?

 

[Spaghetti Falco]

Oh baby can't wait to fill this out

 

[ZeldaUniverse]

Done, hopefully this poll works out.

 

[SlickJ]

These were my thoughts and reply to last question of this survey:

I am an online Smash Bros. 4 tournament host, this is my chat room: http://us20.chatzy.com/SmashRoom (my username is SlickJ).

I have been hosting online tournaments for 2 years now and I can say with confidence that having a 3 stock 8 minute limit is better than having 2 stocks. Two stocks shortens a match and eliminates the possibility of comebacks and great potential gameplay and it causes people to play more safely and more competitively. Sure some people may want that but I feel 2 stocks is also a less welcoming experience to new people just stepping into the Smash scene as it reduces the length of the match.

I personally don't like or use custom moves and they are heavily dreaded in two chat rooms that I'm an admin of. One of my chat members has actually stated that if he was given the chance to go to EVO, that because of their custom moves it would be a deterrent for him and he would not go. This statement is coming from someone who dropped out of school, he sells everything he possibly can to get carpooled and attend as many Smash tournaments as he can.

 

[NerdThomas3]

Here's an idea: Smash 4 features Omega Stages. These Omega Stages are in the form of Final Destination. A stage that already existed since Smash 64. Some stages in both versions of Smash 4 are loaded with hazards that can sometimes kill you with one hit, don't give you a chance to fight back or even take up over half the stage. I'm looking at you, Yellow Devil. While the Omega Stages removed these hazards, we're forced to only fight on a flat surface as if we're playing on Final Destination.

Now what if, and this is just an idea, we can make the Omegas count as playing on Final Destination? Confused? Here's an example: Let's say me and player 2 agreed to playing on Final Destination. Instead of picking the actual FD stage, I have the option of choosing the Omega forms of the other stages because, once again, they're re-skins of FD themed to Nintendo franchises. I choose the Omega version of say........ Wily's Castle, a stage that which the normal version is banned from tournaments, and we play a match. Once the match is over, we choose the next stage, but this time, since we play on a re-skined Final Destination stage, we cannot go back to it nor pick any other Omega Stage including the real FD unless agreed by both players.

I believe with this idea, we actually have more stages to choose from and, technically speaking, this means that no stage is banned from tournaments (Omega forms anyway) and players can pick a stage from their favorite game/franchise. So...... Good idea..? Bad idea..?

 

[DJ Arson]

Here's an idea: Smash 4 features Omega Stages. These Omega Stages are in the form of Final Destination. A stage that already existed since Smash 64. Some stages in both versions of Smash 4 are loaded with hazards that can sometimes kill you with one hit, don't give you a chance to fight back or even take up over half the stage. I'm looking at you, Yellow Devil. While the Omega Stages removed these hazards, we're forced to only fight on a flat surface as if we're playing on Final Destination.

Now what if, and this is just an idea, we can make the Omegas count as playing on Final Destination? Confused? Here's an example: Let's say me and player 2 agreed to playing on Final Destination. Instead of picking the actual FD stage, I have the option of choosing the Omega forms of the other stages because, once again, they're re-skins of FD themed to Nintendo franchises. I choose the Omega version of say........ Wily's Castle, a stage that which the normal version is banned from tournaments, and we play a match. Once the match is over, we choose the next stage, but this time, since we play on a re-skined Final Destination stage, we cannot go back to it nor pick any other Omega Stage including the real FD unless agreed by both players.

I believe with this idea, we actually have more stages to choose from and, technically speaking, this means that no stage is banned from tournaments (Omega forms anyway) and players can pick a stage from their favorite game/franchise. So...... Good idea..? Bad idea..?

Not all Omegas are the same. Some have no bottom, the ones that do are inconsistent with lips (Battlefield), being able to wall jump (You can on Wily, but not on Kalos Leauge or Pac-Land), and they have different blast zones and cameras reflecting that of the regular (Duck Hunt)

 

[New_Dumal]

3 stocks, 8 minutes.
Smash 4 has been proved faster than Brawl, almost always.

Starters are obvious : FD,BF, Smashville, Town and City and Lylat Cruise.

Counterpicks : Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Duck Hunt, Castle Siege, Wii Fit Studios (Yeah, I think we need ONE walk-off CP) and Wuhu Island (new Delphino).
3 or 4 stage bans. Everyone who hates walk-offs, just ban Wii Fit Studios.That's it, my vote.

Mii's should be only used if in default size.
Customs will be tested, we will decide this after EVO.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

What about 3 stock 6 minutes?

I'm sticking to 3 stock 8 minutes however

 

[•Saıls•]

I just wanted to ask why Halberd isn't banned? I just feel like all hazards regardless of dodge ability or damage they do should be banned. because if we start letting some through why not all the stages? Also the roof on that stage is really low and the bottom of that stage is ***.

I agree, especially with how low the roof is. Makes it easier for people who use characters with really good uairs to kill early.

 

[DJ Arson]

I think the most important part of this poll is the "Reasons Why" at the end of it.

We can talk all the **** we want forever about what we want, but why is the most important part. More people would like 3 stocks and 8 minutes because it makes for a better, more aggressive style of playing that we normally don't see in Smash 4 because you only have 2 stocks. You essentially get one mistake. Smash 4 is faster than Brawl, slower than Melee. 3 stocks is the middle ground it needs.

Everyone gets too salty when you talk about flaws levels have.

Consistent stage hazards are bad
Quick and inconsistent transformations are bad
Pure walk offs are bad

These are the pseudo guidelines used to help determine the legality of levels. We all know what levels fall under these categories and we can properly defend the ones that "loosely" fall into these catagories (Halbred, Castle Siege, the likes)

And this is purely personal opinion: I don't like customs, I think they are unhealthy for competitive play, and distract players from improving on their actual game play.

 

[SlickWylde]

I'm voting for:
Palutena's Temple and Great Cave Offensive as the only legal stages, 5 Stock 20 mins, Bobombs only, Fox and King Dedede banned.

 

[NerdThomas3]

Not all Omegas are the same. Some have no bottom, the ones that do are inconsistent with lips (Battlefield), being able to wall jump (You can on Wily, but not on Kalos Leauge or Pac-Land), and they have different blast zones and cameras reflecting that of the regular (Duck Hunt)

I see your point, but they're not really that big of a deal. Wall jumping is a staple in Smash and is always used by players before. Not being able to wall jump on certain stages shouldn't be a problem. Blast Zones I'll agree are different with each stage, but it shouldn't be a problem. If you could, explain the inconsistent lip thing. I'm not sure I follow that.

 

[Ferntendo]

Why not just recreate with standardized custom stages?

That's actually something we should probably consider too. I never thought of that.

 

[DJ Arson]

I see your point, but they're not really that big of a deal. Wall jumping is a staple in Smash and is always used by players before. Not being able to wall jump on certain stages shouldn't be a problem. Blast Zones I'll agree are different with each stage, but it shouldn't be a problem. If you could, explain the inconsistent lip thing. I'm not sure I follow that.

I should have spaced the terms "bottoms" and "lips". By lips I mean the edge of the stage. I recommend you watch ZeRo's stage guide, where the properties of edges are different for each level. Battlefield's lips allow for spikes, stages spikes, and other hit boxes to "go through them" effectively letting a player do a down smash (or something similar) through the stage and hitting the opponent while "they're underneath the level"