The Ultimate Life Form ~ Shadow the Hedgehog for Smash Ultimate! (Maria...)

[ThatGuyWhoKnowsNothing]

You want to turn Shadow into a psycho obsessed with killing his counterpart? Wound't that make him a even more unbearable egdelord like the Sonic Boom version of him?

Shadow to me should be like Dragonball Super's Vegeta.
Competitive, serious, and a loner. But also righteous, loyal, and with some funny quirks (like the bike thing I posted earlier)

Woah woah woah, isn't becoming LESS of a villain the point of Shadow's development? Also; Thawne's literally one of DC's most despicable and evil villains (I mean he's cool as hell but that's besides the point) and I feel like making Shadow more like him would be not only a step backwards in his character but also make him more edgy.

Eh, not quite what I meant, I meant something more along the lines of making that some sort of story arc, becoming crazy and trying to screw up Sonic's life, a little bit closer to the Hunter Solomon's making better by tragedy then, Thawne's killing, but then realizing his obsession, and If you really wanted to you could pull something meta like the prime Sonic stuff from the old Archie where everyone is tied to Sonic, and only by breaking that tie can you reach your full power, I honestly apologize for not being clear enough, I have a personal problem with either grossly over or under explaining things, so I really do apologize

 

[Bestmand902]

Eh, not quite what I meant, I meant something more along the lines of making that some sort of story arc, becoming crazy and trying to screw up Sonic's life, a little bit closer to the Hunter Solomon's making better by tragedy then, Thawne's killing, but then realizing his obsession, and If you really wanted to you could pull something meta like the prime Sonic stuff from the old Archie where everyone is tied to Sonic, and only by breaking that tie can you reach your full power, I honestly apologize for not being clear enough, I have a personal problem with either grossly over or under explaining things, so I really do apologize

Oh no don't worry about it, it's fine. I understand what you mean better now! ^_^

 

[zeldasmash]

I would love to see Shadow in this game, as an Echo or his own fighter. I support him as a character inclusion.

As for how he would fight, here's my interpretation:

As an Echo: A simple yet affective change for Shadow here is to have some attacks have the fire effect due to his rocket skates. Final hit of jab, Down Air (especially if the spike hits), Back air, stuff like that. Someone here posted that his Spin Dash should be induced with fire as a reference to the Fire Somersault in Sonic Adventure 2 and I would agree. His Final Smash would be different and I think Chaos Blast would be a good one to go with while he turns into Super Shadow. As for attribute changes, I think his speed would be slower but he would hit harder and would jump slightly higher, similar to how Falco was in Melee (not Falco slow, maybe make him slightly faster then Falcon).

As his own fighter: Most of the cosmetic and attribute changes would apply here but his own moveset. Shadow would focus more on powers then physical attacks at least when it comes to his specials. Echo or not, Shadow gets the wall jump and would have less traction due to the skates.

Normal B: Chaos Spear - This would be a chargeable projectile that varies in strength and size depending on the charge.
Side B 1: Spin Dash - I think this one should remain the same but make it infused with fire as a reference to the Fire Somersault.
Side B 2: Light Speed Dash - Shadow stops for a moment and dashes immediately forward at light speed. Very similar to Fox Illusion.
Up B: Chaos Control - A simple teleport similar to Mewtwo's.
Down B: Black Tornado - Spins fast enough to the point to spawn a tornado. Has some start up and end-lag to keep it from being spammable.

 

[JaylonSonicSpeed]

I disagree with your assessment of his popularity, Shadows popularity was a product of his time, with the whole edge thing. ( I feel the best way to fix shadow for a younger audience is to turn him into Reverse Flash or Eobard Thawne, but that's just me) aside from that, I agree wholeheartedly, please, show us your move set. ( I can't find a way to word that un-condescendingly, so just know I mean it genuinely)

Definitely a fair point, just taking into consideration of Episode Shadow from Sonic Forces where he is the only one of Sonic’s old friends to be playable and him hold down his Assist Trophy role from (at least) Brawl to Sm4sh, he seems to still be relevant. But of course to each his own. Personally I don’t care too much for Shadow, having a “meh” opinion of him.

As far as his moveset goes, I tried to keep what few "rules" we have about Echo Fighters in mind and attempted to not stray too far from Sonic as far as the actual moves go. However, as seen by Daisy, animations are free for altercation. But I feel this moveset would reflect Shadow quite well.

Attributes: Shadow appears more serious and stern than Sonic, being less arrogant and peppy. His neutral face is a serious frown unlike Sonic's smirk, his walk is less hoppy, different Spin Attack trails, etc. Shadow would share many attributes with Sonic like run speed and weight. One big difference both aesthetically and physically are his Air Shoes. Not only does he use them for his running animation, but also in his kicking attacks, giving them a fire effect and a little more knockback. However, these Air Shoe attacks come out a little slower and have a bit more cooldown. This would be a common theme throughout a lot of his attacks in comparison to Sonic, trading some speed for raw power, as true to the actual series.
Neutral Attack: Sonic's PPK except the final kick emits a flames from his Air Shoes.
Forward Tilt: Horse Kick with flame effect.
Up Tilt: A single high kick that has more knockback than Sonic's double high kick. (referencing Shadow Kick from Sonic Battle)
Down Tilt: Leg sweep with flame effect.
Dash Attack: Lunging kick with flame effect.
Forward Smash: A charged up punch enveloped in Chaos energy, giving it a bit more beef. Doesn't wind up in the cartoony fashion like Sonic and just pulls his fist back (referencing Chaos Upper from SB)
Up Smash: Same as Sonic.
Down Smash: Split kick with flame effect.
Neutral Aerial: Same as Sonic.
Forward Aerial: Same as Sonic.
Back Aerial: A hook kick with flame effect.
Up Aerial: Same as Sonic.
Down Aerial: A downwards kick using his Air Shoes to propel himself even faster and harder, spiking throughout the entire move but makes him likely to SD offstage.
Grabs/Pummel: All same as Sonic
Neutral Special: Shadow's Homing Attack works very similarly to Sonic's except that his has no recoil animation, allowing him to attack right after with an aerial (referencing Shadow's Homing Attack in Sonic 06)
Side Special: Sonic's 3rd Custom Down Special Burning Spin Dash.
Up Special: There are a few ideas for this one. Using Chaos Control to teleport in the same or similar trajectory as Sonic's Spring Jump is the ideal Up Special for Shadow. However if this is too "different" for Echo status, I'd suggest Shadow still using Sonic's animation, but instead using his Air Shoes to propel himself upwards, still having the same functionality of Spring Jump minus the Spring and its hitbox and possibly hitbox under his Air Shoes. And if this is too different, I'd suggest Spring Jump with a Yellow Spring with less vertical height.
Down Special: Sonic's 2nd Custom Down Special Auto-Spin Charge. I'd also suggest making it a single strong hit instead of a multi-hit attack.
Final Smash: There are many possibilities for Shadow's Final Smash. If he were to "clone" another Final Smash, I'd suggest Bayonettta's Infernal Climax. I see Shadow using a Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control, slowing down time around the fighters. If enough damage and hits are done, the fighters caught in Shadow's final attack are sent into a cutscene of Shadow transforming into Super Shadow and using Chaos Blast to blast his opponents away. Or of course they could just carbon copy Super Sonic into Super Shadow.

 

[DarkFoxTeam]

Something just hit me. Guys, if Shadow makes it into Smash (Echo or not) this means he would get his own amiibo. I would buy that in a heartbeat!! I already have the Sonic one, but having a Shadow one would make me so happy.

I hope it would become something akin to this:

 

[Altais]

If Shadow did make it in SSBU as an Echo Fighter, I could see his kick-based attacks being stronger than Sonic's, due to the jet shoes. As a price, however, his spin dashes and homing attack could be slightly weaker. As for his up-special, he could simply use a modern spring jump instead of a classic one. Either that, or he could use one of those rings that propel you in the air.

Though I'm personally against having more than one third-party character from the same franchise, in the end we don't whether Shadow is still an Assist Trophy. So anything's possible.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

after thinking about it (And looking at a popular fake leak which had a point) I don't think it's likely shadow will be an echo fighter. Sega's already fussy as balls to harmful levels with how they think sonic should be depicted, which bleeds into smash as well (alt colour schemes). If Shadow is in, I have a feeling sega would end up asking to change things to the point where he's no longer an echo.

And to be honest, shadow is a good opportunity to take sonic and replace some of his blander moves with more interesting ones, so i really do hope semiclone shadow happens

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

I want Shadow more than any other character adding Sonic to Brawl & 4 was the best so we really need Shadow. If he's in Ultimate he will definitely be my main.

If he's in, then I hope he plays like Legacy XP 2.0

Why did it post three messages?!?!

You can definitely count me in as a supporter! He's my favorite Sonic character and I've always wanted to see him in Smash. I've honestly never given him much hope before, but, I think he has a solid chance now as an Echo Fighter. However, If I'm being honest, I don't think being an echo fighter does him justice. He has his own unique moves he can have like Chaos Spear, Blast and teleports. I'd still gladly take him as an echo fighter though. And if he does become an echo fighter then in his trailer (or victory quote) I need him to say "You're not even good enough to be my fake!". I think that'd be pretty funny.

Also, I know this would be unlikely, but I'd like to see Radical Highway make it in as a stage. It's theme on Green Hill Zone would do just fine if they don't though.

That's exactly what I was thinking!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Please do not multi-post. Edit your messages instead.

 

[Mastermiine]

Found this moveset on reddit, source:https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...hadows_moveset_in_sonic_battle_could_work_in/

thoughts?

Once again this is not mine I take no credit for making this.

 

[7NATOR]

I'm glad this Shadow thread has gotten traction...however

I think a name change would be necessary to have a more neutral feel on the whole "Echo or unique" aspect of Shadow. More people every day are starting to realize that Shadow as an echo is not as likely as people put it out to be. Im one of those people, and i have seen the way, ive studied, and ive realized that the fact of Shadow being a 3rd party is more important to him not being an echo than people realize

Sega would not allow Shadow to be an echo most likely, so honestly, the whole "Echo or nothing" thing going on with Shadow is not really that credible.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Yeah, I used to think that he could only be an echo fighter but, now I see at the very least he will be a semi clone like Luigi to Mario.

 

[TerminatorLOL]

Found this moveset on reddit, source:https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...hadows_moveset_in_sonic_battle_could_work_in/

thoughts?

Man, that finger snap move from Sonic Battle looks so cool.

Anyway That move set could work really well, though I think the neutral-B should be his side-b (I'm assuming thats a projectile) and the down-b should be his Final Smash (big area of effect Chaos Blast) so he can keep the homing attack and spin dash for the neutral-B and down-B. Even if he doesn't become a straight up echo of Sonic he would still end up sharing some moves with him.

Oh, and I think he should disappear for his dash attack.

Sega would not allow Shadow to be an echo most likely, so honestly, the whole "Echo or nothing" thing going on with Shadow is not really that credible.

Why do you think Sega would have a problem with Shadow being a Sonic echo?

 

[7NATOR]

Man, that finger snap move from Sonic Battle looks so cool.

Anyway That move set could work really well, though I think the neutral-B should be his side-b (I'm assuming thats a projectile) and the down-b should be his Final Smash (big area of effect Chaos Blast) so he can keep the homing attack and spin dash for the neutral-B and down-B. Even if he doesn't become a straight up echo of Sonic he would still end up sharing some moves with him.

Oh, and I think he should disappear for his dash attack.



Why do you think Sega would have a problem with Shadow being a Sonic echo?

His abilities, while maybe not always in gameplay, are always shown off in pretty much every Sonic game, whether it be in gameplay, cutscene, boss battle

one of Shadow's defining attributes is his Chaos abilities, and i can't see Sega allowing Shadow to get the shaft with TWO Spindashes and a Spring. Hell, i don't even think they would like the concept of one of their characters being a carbon copy of another character.

 

[TerminatorLOL]

His abilities, while maybe not always in gameplay, are always shown off in pretty much every Sonic game, whether it be in gameplay, cutscene, boss battle

one of Shadow's defining attributes is his Chaos abilities, and i can't see Sega allowing Shadow to get the shaft with TWO Spindashes and a Spring. Hell, i don't even think they would like the concept of one of their characters being a carbon copy of another character.

I don't see why Sega would be against Shadow being a copy of Sonic when they are the ones that make him play like one in thier games.

The Chaos powers may be a defining difference between the two, but gameplay wise he only gets to use these as super moves in most of his games (SA2 multiplayer, Shadow the Hedgehog, Heroes, Black Knight). In his latest appearance in Sonic Forces he didn't get anything but a slightly different Homing Attatck.

While he could have a move set based all around these unique powers. Let's be honest, being a clone of Sonic with a different super move (Final Smash) isn't really out of character for him.

 

[7NATOR]

I don't see why Sega would be against Shadow being a copy of Sonic when they are the ones that make him play like one in thier games.

The Chaos powers may be a defining difference between the two, but gameplay wise he only gets to use these as super moves in most of his games (SA2 multiplayer, Shadow the Hedgehog, Heroes, Black Knight). In his latest appearance in Sonic Forces he didn't get anything but a slightly different Homing Attatck.

While he could have a move set based all around these unique powers. Let's be honest, being a clone of Sonic with a different super move (Final Smash) isn't really out of character for him.

it still would be pretty boring, and I think Sega knows this. The only other fighting game Shadow was in he played completely different from Sonic,maybe the reasons the Chaos abilities are usually toned down to Super moves is due to balance reason i guess (Sonic being a platformer)

This is a fighting game, so no such worries here...hmmm

 

[Captain Shades]

I will only support Shadow if he has a move that’s just Bayonetta’s Witch Time, but he shouts chaos control before round-house kicking the opponent at the back of the head. (Sonic 06 style)

I agree that Shadow should be in though. He’s the second most popular character in the franchise according to Sonic Team and Boom. He would also be an easy Echo or Semi-clone, as he takes a lot from Sonic and rarely uses the special powers he has, only bringing them out for a cool cutscene or two.

An echo makes a lot of sense though as Sonic Team has made Shadow pretty much a clone of Sonic in recent years. Whether or not you like Forces, Shadow’s portrayal had him use Chaos control only once, and made him into a straight up Sonic skin for the gameplay sections, so an echo would make sense as Shadow has rarely used his powers in modern titles.

I'm glad this Shadow thread has gotten traction...however

I think a name change would be necessary to have a more neutral feel on the whole "Echo or unique" aspect of Shadow. More people every day are starting to realize that Shadow as an echo is not as likely as people put it out to be. Im one of those people, and i have seen the way, ive studied, and ive realized that the fact of Shadow being a 3rd party is more important to him not being an echo than people realize

Sega would not allow Shadow to be an echo most likely, so honestly, the whole "Echo or nothing" thing going on with Shadow is not really that credible.

Bruh... have you even seen Sega.
This is the company that let LEGO create a huge middle finger to Sonic and rip his franchise to shreds in every cutscene and line of the Dimensions Sonic pack.
They also made Boom and the Sonic Twitter which have done nothing but relentlessly mock Sonic.

At this point, I don’t think Sega cares, just having their characters get any resemblance of good publicity is all that matters, no matter how insulting it is. Sega themselves have already turned Shadow into pretty much an Echo, so why would they care if Sakurai does the same, at least he won’t take the time to make Sonic look as awful as possible.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Happens to me all the time

 

[TerminatorLOL]

it still would be pretty boring, and I think Sega knows this. The only other fighting game Shadow was in he played completely different from Sonic,maybe the reasons the Chaos abilities are usually toned down to Super moves is due to balance reason i guess (Sonic being a platformer)

This is a fighting game, so no such worries here...hmmm

I think you overestimate how much Sega cares about his portrayal. Like Captan Shades said, Sonic Boom and the Sonic Twitter are proof they are not that protective of his image.

Sonic Battle was a Sonic character only fighting game, so of course they used the time and resources to make him different . But Smash is a different context. Especially now with the roster size.

Being a Sonic clone, whether we think it's boring or not, is still a accurate portrayal of how he plays in his primary appearances.

 

[DarkFoxTeam]

If Shadow did make it in SSBU as an Echo Fighter, I could see his kick-based attacks being stronger than Sonic's, due to the jet shoes. As a price, however, his spin dashes and homing attack could be slightly weaker. As for his up-special, he could simply use a modern spring jump instead of a classic one. Either that, or he could use one of those rings that propel you in the air.

Though I'm personally against having more than one third-party character from the same franchise, in the end we don't whether Shadow is still an Assist Trophy. So anything's possible.

I actually really like that idea. It makes sense his kick moves would be stronger because of his jet shoes. I feel like that would give Shadow more killing power than Sonic, but in return he'll probably end up a bit slower than Sonic. As for the spring, someone earlier brought up the amazing idea of having Shadow use his spring from his title game.

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

I actually really like that idea. It makes sense his kick moves would be stronger because of his jet shoes. I feel like that would give Shadow more killing power than Sonic, but in return he'll probably end up a bit slower than Sonic. As for the spring, someone earlier brought up the amazing idea of having Shadow use his spring from his title game.

I personally would rather him weaker than Sonic but faster to make it easier for combos which he is known for.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I had this art done recently by https://twitter.com/Purrdemonium

Those of you who know your DBZ should notice what scene I borrowed this pose from

 

[Dragoncharystary]

Glad this thread exists. I have supported Shadow since the Sm4sh days but I was never really that confident in it happening until now. I hope he gets in this time.

 

[Mastermiine]

Is anyone good at Photo shop? I would love to see some shadow alt costume!

 

[ShadowTheHedgehogZ]

Is anyone good at Photo shop? I would love to see some shadow alt costume!

I'm not but a Jet Set Shadow would look amazing

 

[Captain Shades]

I’ve been reading a forum on the differences between the two characters and I feel I know what can be done to make Shadow different.

Sonic is all about style and adaptability, having less lethal moves as he believes in good.
Shadow is the opposite, wanting to get things done, having a strict mindset and willingness to be more lethal.

Sonic and Shadow can be essentially the same character with significant tweaks that go off this principle.

In the air, Sonic has more control, as he’s flashy and would want more air time. Shadow would drop quicker than Sonic leading into more ground control and combos, unlike Sonic who is more free when it comes to air.

Shadow should also have a reverse Marth and Lucina relationship with Sonic. Certain areas of Shadows moves should do more damage, like the tip of his drop kick. Shadow is about power, so getting the most out of his moves would naturally make more sense, but restrict the freedom that Sonic has to be effective and more adaptable at every angle.

Shadow and Sonic should be different in a way that lends Shadow to be more restrictive and require more calculated movements than Sonic, who is a free and adaptable fighter best suited for newcomers.

 

[DarkFoxTeam]

I had this art done recently by https://twitter.com/Purrdemonium

Those of you who know your DBZ should notice what scene I borrowed this pose from

Gotta love that Vegeta pose from the Android saga.

You did a good job giving it to Shadow. Props!

 

[TerminatorLOL]

So I've been trying to think of what kind of taunts Shadow would have

1. Shadow pulls out a green Chaos emerald and toss it up and down in his hand, saying "there's no time for games"
   Spoiler

   0:57
2. Shadow twists the inhibitor rings on his arms causing them to glow and make a noise, like a metal click or something
   Spoiler

   1:50
3. Shadow uses his shoes to hover off the ground, where he will spin around and warps away, only to warp back in (kinda like )
   Spoiler

   2:24

TCT~Phantom
Updated supporter list.

Spoiler: Supporters

1. TCT~Phantom
2. ThoughtfulWanderer
3. smash puffle
4. Wonks
5. NIckynickReviews
6. Travix Man
7. SonicMario
8. AustarusIV
9. SegaNintendoUbisoft
10. Sean Wheeler
11. dangeraaron10
12. majorasmaskfan
13. slambros
14. SmashChu
15. Geoffrey Druyts
16. Mogu
17. ZTurtle
18. GM_3826
19. KMDP
20. 7NATOR
21. Camc10
22. violetsmashfan
23. 92MilesPrower
24. DarkFoxTeam
25. Tornado_Man
26. hermes
27. Mikegamer0608
28. Chocolatgelato
29. Sirfishe
30. SHSL Jedi
31. GoldenYuiitusin
32. VexTheHex
33. AreJay25
34. putuk
35. TerminatorLOL
36. Pinkanator
37. Klimax
38. BluePikmin11
39. Tikivoy
40. UltraMadman
41. Arthur97
42. IanTheGamer
43. StormC
44. The Legendary Beast
45. Takasmash
46. TMNTSSB4
47. SchAlternate
48. Mikegamer0608
49. Mastermiine
50. P.Kat
51. Erotic&Heretic
52. Dixie Kong
53. Houndstooth
54. Troykv
55. vVv Rapture
56. SEGAGameBoy
57. SuperNintendoKid
58. ZagarTulip
59. zeldasmash
60. ShadowTheHedgehogZ
61. Dragoncharystary

 

[TCT~Phantom]

TerminatorLOL thanks for the updated list.

BTW I am not changing the thread title because I like it.

 

[JesseMcCloud]

Knuckles has always been my favorite Sonic character, but now that he's an assist trophy, I'll gladly take Shadow. Especially if it means he might have more specials than just spin-dashing, lol.
You all have my support.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I guess I forgot to say I totally would love to play as Shadow.

Though I'd prefer a semi-clone, mostly to incorporate his abilities from Battle, his own game, and 06. Plus, instead of Super Shadow, I'd rather have him use the Orbital Laser from his own game.

 

[TerminatorLOL]

I see a couple threads talking about this leak by Vergeben
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76848606

How are people feeling about Shadow's chances if Isabelle gets this promotion from Assist Trophy?

It makes sense to me. Shes pretty popular, got into Mario Kart, and is currently an MIA Assist Trophy that could easily be an echo (Just like Shadow and Dark Samus).

I don't think this hurts anything, more echos are kinda expected since the reveal of the term and the roster size. But it does make me even more hungry for some info on Shadow's status.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I see a couple threads talking about this leak by Vergeben
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76848606

How are people feeling about Shadow's chances if Isabelle gets this promotion from Assist Trophy?

It makes sense to me. Shes pretty popular, got into Mario Kart, and is currently an MIA Assist Trophy that could easily be an echo (Just like Shadow and Dark Samus).

I don't think this hurts anything, more echos are kinda expected since the reveal of the term and the roster size. But it does make me even more hungry for some info on Shadow's status.

Don't really think it means much of anything one way or the other for Shadow but glad to see more Assists getting upgraded to playable regardless.

 

[SonicMario]

Coming up soon is Tails' RTC day. I hope some of you guys can be fair even though Tails probably is Shadow's biggest threat.

The ideal situation (With Knuckles as an Assist now anyway) would be Tails and Shadow are a Sonic DLC pack with Tails as a Semi-Clone that's packaged with a free or discounted price echo fighter Shadow. But as it is now, there's no denial these two will be butting heads for the 2nd Sonic spot.

I've made it no secret that I vastly prefer Tails. But I have also said an echo Shadow is currently more likely. I didn't rate Shadow when he was up (To be honest, I think that was a little quick to getting to all those characters so soon. No offense to TCT~Phantom but I think that easily could have a bit of kneejerk reactions in the first week). But if I were to rate the 2nd Sonic character possibilities now it'd be:

20% (Shadow as an Echo Fighter)
15% (Tails as DLC)
10% (Shadow as DLC [Unique/Semi-Clone])
5% (Dr. Eggman as DLC)

Though to be honest I think if "No new Sonic characters" was up as a conceptual RTC I'd give it a 60%-70%

 

[DarkFoxTeam]

I see a couple threads talking about this leak by Vergeben
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76848606

How are people feeling about Shadow's chances if Isabelle gets this promotion from Assist Trophy?

It makes sense to me. Shes pretty popular, got into Mario Kart, and is currently an MIA Assist Trophy that could easily be an echo (Just like Shadow and Dark Samus).

I don't think this hurts anything, more echos are kinda expected since the reveal of the term and the roster size. But it does make me even more hungry for some info on Shadow's status.

I feel like this could help his chances, but only ever so slightly. If this is true then it could mean we should expect a few more echo fighters. If that's the case then Shadow could seem likely. Unfortunately, we have to continue playing the waiting game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Coming up soon is Tails' RTC day. I hope some of you guys can be fair even though Tails probably is Shadow's biggest threat.

The ideal situation (With Knuckles as an Assist now anyway) would be Tails and Shadow are a Sonic DLC pack with Tails as a Semi-Clone that's packaged with a free or discounted price echo fighter Shadow. But as it is now, there's no denial these two will be butting heads for the 2nd Sonic spot.

I've made it no secret that I vastly prefer Tails. But I have also said an echo Shadow is currently more likely. I didn't rate Shadow when he was up (To be honest, I think that was a little quick to getting to all those characters so soon. No offense to TCT~Phantom but I think that easily could have a bit of kneejerk reactions in the first week). But if I were to rate the 2nd Sonic character possibilities now it'd be:

20% (Shadow as an Echo Fighter)
15% (Tails as DLC)
10% (Shadow as DLC [Unique/Semi-Clone])
5% (Dr. Eggman as DLC)

Though to be honest I think if "No new Sonic characters" was up as a conceptual RTC I'd give it a 60%-70%

Tails is barely a threat when Shadow is extremely popular(the second most popular Sonic character, period) and far easier to make work as an Echo or even as a clone. Or semi-clone. Or mostly unique(using Sonic as a base model, of course, so like Wolf).

Tails is a great character, of course. Being the secondary guy is sweet. But he's also been made unplayable in multiple games despite this, often taking a backseat to Shadow, Knuckles, and sometimes even Silver of all people. This kind of hurts him a bit. He's not deemed nearly as important. Shadow's popularity is a big boon. It also doesn't help that Sega takes too much advice from the audience instead of attempting to make high quality games without catering to the players so much as making things work right. They're so busy trying to please a few fans they forget to make things function. Lost World is an example of this. Not that I dislike the game, but that isn't the point. Hell, Forces kind of does this too. It finally lets you play as Sonic OC's, but it lacks being a really good game in return due to a lot of issues. Besides that, they still have yet to understand that not everybody only wants Classic Sonic. Modern Sonic is popular too and they want a functioning game to return him and make it work right. 06 was the last game to feature the modern design exclusively(due to multiple playable characters) while Colors was the last game to feature Modern Sonic only. With them trying to shoehorn Classic Sonic into every game, it's hard for them to find anything that works. They also won't stop trying to recreate the modern formula. Here's a hint; use the Lost World formula and improve it. You had a decent one going for it. (also, Classic Sonic is just pure 2D Play sometimes, as Lost World doesn't feature the character specifically, though it pretty much is Generations 2.0, while not really standing out on its own and they dropped a good idea with parkour for some reason).

 

[SonicMario]

Tails is barely a threat when Shadow is extremely popular(the second most popular Sonic character, period) and far easier to make work as an Echo or even as a clone. Or semi-clone. Or mostly unique(using Sonic as a base model, of course, so like Wolf).

Tails is a great character, of course. Being the secondary guy is sweet. But he's also been made unplayable in multiple games despite this, often taking a backseat to Shadow, Knuckles, and sometimes even Silver of all people. This kind of hurts him a bit. He's not deemed nearly as important. Shadow's popularity is a big boon. It also doesn't help that Sega takes too much advice from the audience instead of attempting to make high quality games without catering to the players so much as making things work right. They're so busy trying to please a few fans they forget to make things function. Lost World is an example of this. Not that I dislike the game, but that isn't the point. Hell, Forces kind of does this too. It finally lets you play as Sonic OC's, but it lacks being a really good game in return due to a lot of issues. Besides that, they still have yet to understand that not everybody only wants Classic Sonic. Modern Sonic is popular too and they want a functioning game to return him and make it work right. 06 was the last game to feature the modern design exclusively(due to multiple playable characters) while Colors was the last game to feature Modern Sonic only. With them trying to shoehorn Classic Sonic into every game, it's hard for them to find anything that works. They also won't stop trying to recreate the modern formula. Here's a hint; use the Lost World formula and improve it. You had a decent one going for it. (also, Classic Sonic is just pure 2D Play sometimes, as Lost World doesn't feature the character specifically, though it pretty much is Generations 2.0, while not really standing out on its own and they dropped a good idea with parkour for some reason).

I will concede that yeah Shadow is quite popular (Heck I had a friend in High school when I told them Sonic was playable in Brawl the first reaction wasn't excitement for Sonic. It was "Where's Shadow?". Which still kinda puzzles me, but ok). But I don't think Tails is any slouch in that department either, Shadow's fans just feel more vocal. And I have a feeling both Tails and Knuckles at least had decent support in the ballot. (I do think most of the later Mii costumes were influenced by the ballot). Didn't mean enough for Knuckles to get playable of course so I'm not going to say it's a huge point in Tails' favor. But Tails got the gunner role despite never really using a gun except maybe that Sonic Battle arm cannon which isn't used for the Mii costume, instead it seems to be a generic cartoon laser gun. When you could argue Shadow would of made more sense as a gunner since he did use guns in his own game. But Shadow didn't get a Mii costume at all (And it's not like current ATs couldn't get Mii costumes. There was a Waluigi hat, Takamaru, and Isabelle). Again, not a huge believer in Mii costumes being a hint at potential newcomers for Ultimate. But it's still a little noticeable both Tails and Knuckles received mii costumes while other very popular Sonic characters like Shadow and Eggman didn't. Maybe Sega simply signed off/agreed on only those two, but that might arguably make it sound worse that Sega didn't consider a Shadow costume.

Though while Tails was playable in less games after the disaster of 06 much like any other characters that aren't Sonic. Tails at least managed to keep a presence in quite a few games. He appeared in Unleashed, Colors, Generations (2 versions of Tails, I might add), Sonic 4 Episode 2, and Lost World. Most of these are not playable appearances but they had him at least in a supporting role. But he's there, out of all these games Shadow only appeared as a boss in Generations. Shadow was not playable in any games not counting spin-offs (And even if they do count, Tails was often playable in those too) until Sonic Forces post Sonic 06. And out of these group of games Shadow only appeared in Generations, which again was only as a boss and supporting Sonic at the end like the rest of his friends. But let's be honest, Sega overreacted HARD to the reaction to 06 and ended up downgrading everybody who wasn't Sonic for quite a while. And some characters still haven't quite recovered from 06. Every single character besides Sonic and Eggman took a backseat for a while. So if that drags Tails down, it does the same for Shadow. (it's also part of the reason it may be more likely Sonic's alone again in Smash)

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I will concede that yeah Shadow is quite popular (Heck I had a friend in High school when I told them Sonic was playable in Brawl the first reaction wasn't excitement for Sonic. It was "Where's Shadow?". Which still kinda puzzles me, but ok). But I don't think Tails is any slouch in that department either, Shadow's fans just feel more vocal. And I have a feeling both Tails and Knuckles at least had decent support in the ballot. (I do think most of the later Mii costumes were influenced by the ballot). Didn't mean enough for Knuckles to get playable of course so I'm not going to say it's a huge point in Tails' favor. But Tails got the gunner role despite never really using a gun except maybe that Sonic Battle arm cannon which isn't used for the Mii costume, instead it seems to be a generic cartoon laser gun. When you could argue Shadow would of made more sense as a gunner since he did use guns in his own game. But Shadow didn't get a Mii costume at all (And it's not like current ATs couldn't get Mii costumes. There was a Waluigi hat, Takamaru, and Isabelle). Again, not a huge believer in Mii costumes being a hint at potential newcomers for Ultimate. But it's still a little noticeable both Tails and Knuckles received mii costumes while other very popular Sonic characters like Shadow and Eggman didn't. Maybe Sega simply signed off/agreed on only those two, but that might arguably make it sound worse that Sega didn't consider a Shadow costume.

Though while Tails was playable in less games after the disaster of 06 much like any other characters that aren't Sonic. Tails at least managed to keep a presence in quite a few games. He appeared in Unleashed, Colors, Generations (2 versions of Tails, I might add), Sonic 4 Episode 2, and Lost World. Most of these are not playable appearances but they had him at least in a supporting role. But he's there, out of all these games Shadow only appeared as a boss in Generations. Shadow was not playable in any games not counting spin-offs (And even if they do count, Tails was often playable in those too) until Sonic Forces post Sonic 06. And out of these group of games Shadow only appeared in Generations, which again was only as a boss and supporting Sonic at the end like the rest of his friends. But let's be honest, Sega overreacted HARD to the reaction to 06 and ended up downgrading everybody who wasn't Sonic for quite a while. And some characters still haven't quite recovered from 06. Every single character besides Sonic and Eggman took a backseat for a while. So if that drags Tails down, it does the same for Shadow. (it's also part of the reason it may be more likely Sonic's alone again in Smash)

Right. I'm just saying the more popular one and easier to make a moveset for(due to Shadow and Sonic being near identical models and potentially could use the same moveset) gives the hedgehog an edge.

I won't comment much on the other games' qualities(though I will say I liked 06 way more than Unleashed, but then again, Tails wasn't great in it either but at least playable?), but the point was both Tails and Shadow got drowned out. It doesn't much matter if they're spin-offs or not though. They thought have Tails was less important to be playable than Shadow, Knuckles, and Silver for a while. Why, I dunno. But it's what they did regardless. If it helps, Black Knight still had Tails playable via multiplayer, so it still is something.

I agree he's no slouch. He just doesn't have a lot going for him beyond his iconicness at this time. That alone may not be enough. At least when it comes to a second 3rd Party character from an already playable franchise, anyway. On the other hand, Tails has his own separated series(unlike Shadow) so that could help too. Tails Adventure is fully separated outside of the Chaos Emeralds existing. Shadow is pretty much still the same series, just his own limelight. It's like with Wario and Yoshi. Wario is the Tails in this situation. If that makes sense.

 

[SonicMario]

Right. I'm just saying the more popular one and easier to make a moveset for(due to Shadow and Sonic being near identical models and potentially could use the same moveset) gives the hedgehog an edge.

I won't comment much on the other games' qualities(though I will say I liked 06 way more than Unleashed, but then again, Tails wasn't great in it either but at least playable?), but the point was both Tails and Shadow got drowned out. It doesn't much matter if they're spin-offs or not though. They thought have Tails was less important to be playable than Shadow, Knuckles, and Silver for a while. Why, I dunno. But it's what they did regardless. If it helps, Black Knight still had Tails playable via multiplayer, so it still is something.

I agree he's no slouch. He just doesn't have a lot going for him beyond his iconicness at this time. That alone may not be enough. At least when it comes to a second 3rd Party character from an already playable franchise, anyway. On the other hand, Tails has his own separated series(unlike Shadow) so that could help too. Tails Adventure is fully separated outside of the Chaos Emeralds existing. Shadow is pretty much still the same series, just his own limelight. It's like with Wario and Yoshi. Wario is the Tails in this situation. If that makes sense.

Yeah, I agree that both popularity and a natural choice as an Echo does currently make Shadow the frontrunner. If there's a playable 2nd Sonic character in the base game it will be Shadow as an echo no doubt. It's DLC where things may get dicey. It'd be cool if they did the thing I mentioned earlier of character DLC packs with again Tails as a full semi-clone that gets packaged in with a free or discounted price Shadow echo fighter. But that's a dream scenario since I doubt they let Sonic get 3 characters. If it happens it's probably one or the other, though on the bright side for you guys if Shadow's assist trophy is still missing for the base game. That means Shadow has a shot to get in as a non-echo after all since they could put more time into DLC characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, I agree that both popularity and a natural choice as an Echo does currently make Shadow the frontrunner. If there's a playable 2nd Sonic character in the base game it will be Shadow as an echo no doubt. It's DLC where things may get dicey. It'd be cool if they did the thing I mentioned earlier of character DLC packs with again Tails as a full semi-clone that gets packaged in with a free or discounted price Shadow echo fighter. But that's a dream scenario since I doubt they let Sonic get 3 characters. If it happens it's probably one or the other, though on the bright side for you guys if Shadow's assist trophy is still missing for the base game. That means Shadow has a shot to get in as a non-echo after all since they could put more time into DLC characters.

I hope you at least caught the pun earlier.

Nonetheless, I refuse to discount Tails too. Shadow just has the current stuff in his favor at this time from fan perspective. But whatever happens happens.

I'm quite prepared for Sonic to remain a 1-character series. Though like I said before, the idea of Tails representing his own "series" might be enough to give him a push too. Which would make him more fun than just being a Sonic semi-clone even. He's really neat in Tails' Adventure.