The Ultimate Life Form ~ Shadow the Hedgehog for Smash Ultimate! (Maria...)

[TerminatorLOL]

So we know echoes can take moves from more then one character, thanks to Chrome. A lot of us are already thinking Shadow's up B should be a Mewtwo like teleport.

But I'm wondering if we could also change his side B into a projectile like Ness and Lucas, so he can have also have Chaos Spear.

 

[dangeraaron10]

Just passing by again to agree that Shadow's chances are sky high at the moment. Nothing guaranteed, obviously, but he has so much going for him:

1. Richter proved that 3rd Parties can have Echos
2. Dark Samus proved a character can be allowed to look dramatically different though mechanically similar
3. Chrom proved an Echo could borrow a move from a different character than their base character (Roy Echo, Ike Up Special)
4. Shadow's AT missing while Knuckles continuously promoted. They hid Robin's FS from us for so long and Samus's Dark Samus palette was gone as well as Dark Samus AT missing in action. Both Chrom and Dark Samus are in. Patterns point to Shadow.

So yeah, right now everything is pointing in Shadow's favor.

(I also believe Dixie Kong is going to be a possible Echo of Diddy since Diddy's only tail using ability got removed from Ultimate and Echos can use moves from other characters to satisfy her hair twirling thing).

As for borrowed moves, I could definitely see Shadow using Mewtwo's Up Special and have Chaos Control/Blast as a Final Smash. Other moves could also be used in place of Chaos powers as well. The key is that everything mechanically gets borrowed to cut down dev time.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So we know echoes can take moves from more then one character, thanks to Chrome. A lot of us are already thinking Shadow's up B should be a Mewtwo like teleport.

But I'm wondering if we could also change his side B into a projectile like Ness and Lucas, so he can have also have Chaos Spear.

Well, we don't know if he can take any old move. Don't forget that Chrom's two moves are from characters that have the same overall build(Marth and Ike) as Roy and Chrom. This means that the moves might still require using a character with a near identical design. However, I think a teleport would be easy to do anyway, since it's basically "appear in another place after disappearing". This isn't that hard to retool.

The only move I'm iffy on them trying to do is Dixie's Hair Spin, because Spinning Kong won't work if Chrom proves that "the character still needs the same general build to grab a move from" as correct. Spinning Kong is a severely different move and only conceptually similar. If anything, R.O.B.'s spinning moves might be easier to retool an animation from, and I doubt that too. Final Smashes aside, we don't have severely unique animations for any Echo to begin with. So I wouldn't put much stock into Chrom's abilities just yet.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

I do like the fact that Echo Fighters can take moves from multiple characters instead of just "depending" on the one's moveset. It brings a lot more potential and possibilities of who can join now.

.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do like the fact that Echo Fighters can take moves from multiple characters instead of just "depending" on the one's moveset. It brings a lot more potential and possibilities of who can join now.

.

As do I. I'm just not getting my hopes up for the idea it can be "any character can give you a move". But I tend to try to be cautious with my analysis, so...

 

[Louisacommie]

Give shadow witch time down b chaos control.

 

[TerminatorLOL]

It wouldn't really do anything useful for a Trailer in itself. It's not his big signature song people look for. It needs to be one of his songs for the game(whether he gets a new stage or not, who knows. Radical Highway and Westopolis are the best options he has due to recognizability). All Hail Shadow and I Am (All Of Me) are his big ones, to the point they both have full out OST releases. Radical Highway is cool, but don't actually represent Shadow's characterization at all. Songs without lyrics rarely can do this, especially considering signature songs have lyrics in the Dreamcast saga. The only song from Adventure 2 that is close to a signature one is oddly enough none of the stage songs, but his main theme, Throw It All Away(eep, the edge in that song. Yeish), and that doesn't represent what Shadow is anymore. He's an anti-hero. Even Sonic's trailer theme was a lyrical one. And for good reasons. It sets the stage for awesomeness. Radical Highway is instrumental, and again, while good, doesn't really show off his outright characterization.

His theme should match his characterization first, and people remember Shadow now because of his edge(though honestly, there are people who only remember his due to his guns... which while they are notable to his character now, aren't his most iconic abilities. And don't have to be in. Referenced as you noted with the super scope, but hardly a necessity. I'd love them in myself, but they were not all that liked compared to his Chaos moves). The most important part to the trailer itself is how to handle it. All Hail Shadow might not work if Shadow is basically being violent in general. It's his Hero theme. So unless he's killing a villain/antagonist, it would clash a bit. I Am (All Of Me) might work better. The choreography is also an issue. It has to all fit together. Though him killing, say, Bowser Jr., getting the splash screen, then the music starts up works too. I Am (All Of Me) might work better due to the slower start of the song. All Hail Shadow might only work for a trailer with the remix. That small intro makes all the difference.

If you're wondering why the choreography matters to me, I'm a huge fan of presentation and have watched stuff like Power Rangers. Timing is everything. When stuff like the Ultrazord appears, for instance, it works because the music ties into it perfectly. Whether it's a strong riff that tells you stuff is about to happen, or exactly how Titanus rolls in while the music is playing. Even the bad Disney reimagining got this right, which Titanus' name showing up with lightning sound effects without drowning out the music. This matters a lot. I probably care too much about it, but these are cinematic trailers, so obviously they want them to get the most hype.

For a more cinematic introduction your right. I Am & All Hail Shadow would be better for capturing the epic moment. I guess I was just thinking Shadow would get something like what Dark Samus got, when it comes to a trailer.

I was also just kidding about the Super Scope thing. If Shadow does get a cinematic I always saw him jumping in to save Sonic from getting attacked (something like what he did in 06 or like what Richter did), You could even use Mewtwo as the Sliver stand in (who he could then roundhouse kick in the head). Sonic looks up and the guitars at the start of All Hail Shadow kicks in as the camera pans up to Shadow, then 'splash card'

Well, we don't know if he can take any old move. Don't forget that Chrom's two moves are from characters that have the same overall build(Marth and Ike) as Roy and Chrom. This means that the moves might still require using a character with a near identical design. However, I think a teleport would be easy to do anyway, since it's basically "appear in another place after disappearing". This isn't that hard to retool.

The only move I'm iffy on them trying to do is Dixie's Hair Spin, because Spinning Kong won't work if Chrom proves that "the character still needs the same general build to grab a move from" as correct. Spinning Kong is a severely different move and only conceptually similar. If anything, R.O.B.'s spinning moves might be easier to retool an animation from, and I doubt that too. Final Smashes aside, we don't have severely unique animations for any Echo to begin with. So I wouldn't put much stock into Chrom's abilities just yet.

I hear ya. It just every time I suggested the Chaos Spear I pictured it as kind of being similar to PK Fire.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

For a more cinematic introduction your right. I Am & All Hail Shadow would be better for capturing the epic moment. I guess I was just thinking Shadow would get something like what Dark Samus got, when it comes to a trailer.

Yeah, if it's just a random show-off, Radical Highway fits. I was always meaning a CGI trailer. I wasn't clear. My bad.

I was also just kidding about the Super Scope thing. If Shadow does get a cinematic I always saw him jumping in to save Sonic from getting attacked (something like what he did in 06 or like what Richter did), You could even use Mewtwo as the Sliver stand in (who he could then roundhouse kick in the head). Sonic looks up and the guitars at the start of All Hail Shadow kicks in as the camera pans up to Shadow, then 'splash card'

Considering I have zero issues with Shadow with guns...

But yeah, there's a lot they can do.

I hear ya. It just every time I suggested the Chaos Spear I pictured it as kind of being similar to PK Fire.

It's more the base animation model could be used for PK Fire, but it would be different otherwise. I like that idea.

For his Final Smash, one thought is Orbital Laser from the Satellite Gun in Shadow The Hedgehog. I'd rather not having Super Shadow as it's a little boring. It's not a bad move or anything, but it feels like it doesn't show off the other unique potential moves Sonic and Shadow can do.

 

[TerminatorLOL]

Considering I have zero issues with Shadow with guns...

But yeah, there's a lot they can do.

I mean, I wouldn't hate a small nod to the gun thing as long as it's just shots of him using the items already in the game.

I just thought seeing him cocking a toy gun with no pump would be funny.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, I wouldn't hate a small nod to the gun thing as long as it's just shots of him using the items already in the game.

I just thought seeing him cocking a toy gun with no pump would be funny.

There's actual toy guns among the game. Omochao Gun is a very notable one. Besides that, the Shadow Rifle doesn't shoot real bullets. I do think him cocking the AK-47 would be a neat taunt.

But yeah, I get ya. Not everyone likes the guns. I honestly would be more bothered by it if he didn't grow up in a military space base. The only reason he shouldn't have used guns is because Maria was killed by one, which actually has a good logical reason to it. Eggman uses a gun outside of his mech, after all. Hell, the shooting mechs in Adventure 2 are pretty much laser bullets, not just lasers. So it's not like it's something unique to Humans. Then there's Omega, who is clearly using bullet-style lasers too.

 

[Kulty]

Hey guys,

Now that MY BOI KING K ROOL (one of my most requested characters) is now finally in Smash, the other character I want to see is another Sonic representative and Rayman (I doubt him at this point sadly ). As a huge Sonic fan, I am a bit dissapointed about Sonic`s representation in Smash Bros (even in Brawl), as he could have a much better moveset that fits him more as a character. Now that the concept of Echo Fighters and third party representation is made clear and cut throughout the last Direct, I would be very dissapointed and shocked if Shadow does not make it in as he`s the second most popular Sonic character after Sonic himself and the third party franchise that really deserves to have a second rep (I really have a feeling that Sakurai and his team dislikes Sonic apparently ). I hope that if Shadow has a reveal trailer for himself (but I doubt since he`ll most likely be an Echo Fighter for Sonic, but HE REALLY DESERVES BETTER THAN THAT), they recreate the scene back in Green Forest from Sonic Adventure 2 when Sonic and Shadow call out to each other as being fakers. THAT WOULD BE AWESOME. XD

Or they could go with something original which I`m okay for.

If they would make Shadow as an Echo, I expect him to receive the ''Chrom'' treatment with a different side or down-special and not make him have two Spin Dashes like Sonic. Preferable as a semi-clone of Sonic, but I doubt it.

 

[SonicMario]

(I really have a feeling that Sakurai and his team dislikes Sonic apparently ).

Uh... Why do you feel this?

If Sakurai disliked Sonic, he wouldn't have delayed Brawl's release practically just to get him in the game.

He was also in the original project plan for Brawl, but Sega at first said no, but later changed their minds at the last minute. Which is why much of Sonic's content in Brawl may have felt rushed.

Sakurai also put much emphasis back in Smash 4 when they got Megaman, Pac-Man, and Sonic together that in a pic of the day of them together with Mario he said this "This is quite a line-up of characters for the gaming world. I mean, it's amazing enough that Mario can fight Pikachu. I hope you enjoy this truly unique celebration!!" So he still considers Sonic amongst the iconic gaming characters after all.

 

[VioletSmashfan]

If they would make Shadow as an Echo, I expect him to receive the ''Chrom'' treatment with a different side or down-special and not make him have two Spin Dashes like Sonic. Preferable as a semi-clone of Sonic, but I doubt it.

Better yet, why not change his side B to the boosting move from the current Sonic games (but with the exact same effect as the former move, including the ability to do that Spin-Shot (Boost-Shot would be pretty cool to see.)

Likewise combine his old Side-B effect with his Down-B's properties (and renaming Spin Dash Charge while giving it the Fire effect from Burning Spin-Dash), problem solved and he would still be an Echo of Sonic (even giving him Mewtwo's current Up-B teleport via Chaos Control would still classify him as an Echo as long as it has the same properties as Sonic's Spring Jump).

 

[magiciandude]

Hey if wanting Shadow in as an Echo fighter makes me eligible to appear in the support list, please add me! =D BTW, might want to update the OP now that Simon and Richter Belmont are both in Smash Ultimate.

 

[The King of Skulls]

Since the reveal of Richter showing that Third Parties can get multiple reps, I'm going all in:
Shadow the Hedgehog will be in Smash Bros. as a playable fighter.

I will shave my beard if I'm wrong. I'm not a huge proponent of Shadow [despite full 100% clearing Shadow the Hedgehog for the Nintendo Gamecube], but I have a really strong feeling that he's going to be an Echo of Sonic. Probably one of the last fighters revealed overall if I had to reckon.

Also boosting his chances are the different specials from other characters [Chrom] and the different animations [Dark Samus].
Count me as a supporter of Shadow if it means getting rid of his terrible Assist Trophy.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

Shadow has my full support, I've been rooting for him since the reveal of Ultimate

That being said, I will have a hearty chuckle if it turns out Classic shows up as an echo

 

[josh bones]

Shadow has my full support, I've been rooting for him since the reveal of Ultimate

That being said, I will have a hearty chuckle if it turns out Classic shows up as an echo

What if it's Boom Sonic.

 

[SonicMario]

Shadow has my full support, I've been rooting for him since the reveal of Ultimate

That being said, I will have a hearty chuckle if it turns out Classic shows up as an echo

What if it's Boom Sonic.

If we get a 2nd Sonic (As in the actual character, not a 2nd Sonic rep that can be a different character), it's Classic Sonic for sure. Sega is one of those that does reference Retro Sonic since they still have a decent audience that only cares about the Classic Sonic games. (They just also have a big Modern Sonic fanbase as well, and while Generations kinda worked for a short while to bringing both together. That didn't last long however, and now the Modern Sonic fans are tired of Classic Sonic popping up randomly like in Forces. Or some of the particular elitist classic fans are pushing Sega to transition back to only the Classic style and trash everything Modern.)

I'm more of a Modern Sonic fan (Even if leaning on the in-between times of the Adventure era), but I actually wouldn't mind Classic Sonic being an echo. Always kind of wanted Classic Sonic to be an alt. Though the thing in the way of that is the same reason why Classic couldn't be an alt before: Classic Sonic is canonically much smaller then Modern Sonic is. They'd have to make Classic Sonic bigger proportionally then he was in Generations compared to Modern Sonic.

Sakurai doesn't seem to mind the Modern Sonic design though. Pac-Man and Mega Man seem to rely on Classic looks. But he seemed just fine with the Adventure era and beyond design for Sonic. And at this point, Sonic has had the Adventure design longer then he was the Classic Sonic design 1991-1997, 2011, 2017-Present = 9 Years 1998-Present = 20 years. Even less if you don't count the years they've co-existed (Which would just make it 6 years)

 

[xNaz]

I support Shadow getting in. However, how far do you think he would deviate from Sonic's moveset as an echo fighter?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If we get a 2nd Sonic (As in the actual character, not a 2nd Sonic rep that can be a different character), it's Classic Sonic for sure. Sega is one of those that does reference Retro Sonic since they still have a decent audience that only cares about the Classic Sonic games. (They just also have a big Modern Sonic fanbase as well, and while Generations kinda worked for a short while to bringing both together. That didn't last long however, and now the Modern Sonic fans are tired of Classic Sonic popping up randomly like in Forces. Or some of the particular elitist classic fans are pushing Sega to transition back to only the Classic style and trash everything Modern.)

I'm more of a Modern Sonic fan (Even if leaning on the in-between times of the Adventure era), but I actually wouldn't mind Classic Sonic being an echo. Always kind of wanted Classic Sonic to be an alt. Though the thing in the way of that is the same reason why Classic couldn't be an alt before: Classic Sonic is canonically much smaller then Modern Sonic is. They'd have to make Classic Sonic bigger proportionally then he was in Generations compared to Modern Sonic.

Sakurai doesn't seem to mind the Modern Sonic design though. Pac-Man and Mega Man seem to rely on Classic looks. But he seemed just fine with the Adventure era and beyond design for Sonic. And at this point, Sonic has had the Adventure design longer then he was the Classic Sonic design 1991-1997, 2011, 2017-Present = 9 Years 1998-Present = 20 years. Even less if you don't count the years they've co-existed (Which would just make it 6 years)

Sonic's whole design is based upon Classic Sonic with slight modern variations. Like the new Homing Attack from Unleashed(as the original Homing Attack, though using the Adventure 1/2 style, actually originated from Sonic 3D Blast. His Down Air is literally the only real modern move in his arsenal. The rest are from before the modern era started. As weird as it is to called Sonic The Fighters classic, it actually is a classic game. Amy has her look before she got her modern teenager design in Adventure 1).

Modern Sonic doesn't exist in Smash, which is weird when you think about it. Yet still the case. The problem with Sonic's design is despite his moveset being a focus on his classic abilities, his overall physical design is closer to modern. So while Modern Sonic isn't the one in Smash, he takes some notes from it regardless. I don't think we'd ever get a second Sonic, but there's little to choose from. Modern and Classic are already part of the current one, which means the only choices are Boom Sonic or a version not from a game.

 

[MonkeyDLenny]

I've always felt that one mechanic that could set Classic apart from his counterpart is some kind of mechanic involving the three shields from Sonic 3

Like, Down B could spawn a monitor that Classic pops open. Fire Shield gives him an air dash, Electroshield gives him a higher double jump and shoots some sparks, Bubble Shield lets him bounce high, and can potentially bury if you sweet-spot it. Of course, as per the games, getting hit once destroys them

 

[grizby2]

I'll support shadow. I'm dead certain that he's an echo by now!

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Shadow as an Echo would be really cool. They could give him Mewtwo's Up B, and Bayonetta's down B. Also, his neutral be could be a teleport homing strike that works like Sonic's, but has him teleporting to the opponent instead of launching at them.

 

[smashingDoug]

Can Shadow take a move from a character from a different series?

Ike, Roy and Chrome are all from FE

And didn’t the man himself say that Chrome would be a mix or Marth and Ike if he made it into four, he probably made Chrome based off of Roy and Ike, just so it’s not another Marth echo stance and all

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can Shadow take a move from a character from a different series?

Ike, Roy and Chrome are all from FE

And didn’t the man himself say that Chrome would be a mix or Marth and Ike if he made it into four, he probably made Chrome based off of Roy and Ike, just so it’s not another Marth echo stance and all

This is why I don't think it's super simple as people are making it.

He might only be able to retool a move from a character with the same build as Sonic. He might not. Echoes are given a lot more work than 4, so that might not matter. It might deal with "if it's easy enough" at this point.

 

[smashingDoug]

This is why I don't think it's super simple as people are making it.

He might only be able to retool a move from a character with the same build as Sonic. He might not. Echoes are given a lot more work than 4, so that might not matter. It might deal with "if it's easy enough" at this point.

Hey at least we are know different running animations are a thing, that’s a nice thing to note

Tbh I forgot how the Mewtwo Up B animation plays out

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hey at least we are know different running animations are a thing, that’s a nice thing to note

Tbh I forgot how the Mewtwo Up B animation plays out

Well, Bill said those kinds of animations weren't a key to an Echo, and though he seems to be off on what makes an Echo an Echo, he did get that right.

As for Chaos Control, it's not a hard move to outright make. It's the basic coding of appearing/reappearing, but it also requires a new animation for him even then. Considering Invisible is still a mode, I can't see it being too much trouble.

Something like Witch Time being remade might be a far bigger difference compared to a reappear/disappear factor.

 

[UberMadman]

I made a strawpoll to ask what song should accompany Shadow if he is revealed. Please answer! I’m curious as to everyone’s opinions.

http://www.strawpoll.me/16254412

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I made a strawpoll to ask what song should accompany Shadow if he is revealed. Please answer! I’m curious as to everyone’s opinions.

http://www.strawpoll.me/16254412

Not surprised All Hail Shadow is winning. I'm sad that I Am (All Of Me) has such little love...

 

[7NATOR]

I still can't get on the Shadow echo train like you guys

I see him being a semi-clone, but not full fledged echo my guys

you have my support, but i still reckon Shadow is his own character, mark my words

 

[Sølid]

I made a strawpoll to ask what song should accompany Shadow if he is revealed. Please answer! I’m curious as to everyone’s opinions.

http://www.strawpoll.me/16254412

Not surprised All Hail Shadow is winning. I'm sad that I Am (All Of Me) has such little love...

I'm having issues coming to terms with Supporting Me being only third here.

 

[smashingDoug]

Well, Bill said those kinds of animations weren't a key to an Echo, and though he seems to be off on what makes an Echo an Echo, he did get that right.

As for Chaos Control, it's not a hard move to outright make. It's the basic coding of appearing/reappearing, but it also requires a new animation for him even then. Considering Invisible is still a mode, I can't see it being too much trouble.

Something like Witch Time being remade might be a far bigger difference compared to a reappear/disappear factor.

You could revamp his stage into and exit animations from his Time as an assist to work for chaos control no?

 

[Nietona]

Since the reveal of Richter showing that Third Parties can get multiple reps, I'm going all in:
Shadow the Hedgehog will be in Smash Bros. as a playable fighter.

I'm with you here. My jaw will hit the floor if he isn't playable, he's such a lock it's hard to imagine otherwise. Dark Samus proves he could use his hover shoes to dash with different animations, and if he could take something like Witch Time from Bayo as Chaos Control it'd be super fitting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You could revamp his stage into and exit animations from his Time as an assist to work for chaos control no?

It took me a bit to understand that. Weird grammar and all.

The assets from his AT being used for his Chaos Control Up B sounds good, yeah.

 

[Giga Kaiju]

As long as he has some of his Chaos attacks, then its all good.

 

[DarkFoxTeam]

If they were to give Shadow a new running animation, a teleport (Mewtwo's Up-B) and Chaos Control (Bayo's counter) then he'd be one hell of an echo fighter. He might as well be a semi-clone at that point. However, I'm not sure if Sakurai would give him those moves. As it was mentioned, Chrom borrows moves from other FE, so it's hard to say what Sakurai could do.

I can see him with Chaos Control since Bayonetta is also another Sega rep, so that could probably work out fine. I can't say for sure whether that'd be a possibility, but I'll hope for the best. Honestly, Shadow being in the game in any playable form is good enough for me.

 

[smashingDoug]

I could see the (I don’t aura effects) of Chaos when he uses his jab, if it’s like Sonic’s

And the Chaos spear in SA2 always looked like it had some kind of Electrical Dark effects to it, again if his Moves are like Sonic’s, I could see Sonic’s old custom Fire spindash, become Shadow’s new Down or side B and reworded into Chaos Spin-dash, what had some dark electrical effects to the attack

It took me a bit to understand that. Weird grammar and all.

The assets from his AT being used for his Chaos Control Up B sounds good, yeah.

Ya sorry about that. didn’t know a good way to actually word it

 

[Louisacommie]

I'd want eggman as the unique 2nd sonic rep

 

[SonicMario]

I still can't get on the Shadow echo train like you guys

I see him being a semi-clone, but not full fledged echo my guys

you have my support, but i still reckon Shadow is his own character, mark my words

Dude, they made Richter Belmont. The most popular Belmont in Japan, an echo of Simon.

They aren't going make that special of an exception for Shadow.

 

[KingBroly]

Shadow feels like a "When" and not an "If" at this point.