Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Deleted member]

Not just the cartoony bipedal moments, but the duck covering a lot of the normal attacks helped Duck Hunt quite a bit as well.

As for the concept of using both, I will be blunt and honest; it's completely unnecessary.
The concept of switching between the two forms would be much better suited for a Pokémon that is known to do that and it is an important aspect of who they are. The two Lycanroc aren't forms that are interchangeable, and the concept of them working together is not something that is significant to them as it is for like, Plusle & Minun. Rather, they're always portrayed as counterparts; rivals. They don't both need to be shoehorned into a playable Lycanroc because that isn't what Lycanroc is about.

 

[Kirbeh]

Not just the cartoony bipedal moments, but the duck covering a lot of the normal attacks helped Duck Hunt quite a bit as well.

As for the concept of using both, I will be blunt and honest; it's completely unnecessary.
The concept of switching between the two forms would be much better suited for a Pokémon that is known to do that and it is an important aspect of who they are. The two Lycanroc aren't forms that are interchangeable, and the concept of them working together is not something that is significant to them as it is for like, Plusle & Minun. Rather, they're always portrayed as counterparts; rivals. They don't both need to be shoehorned into a playable Lycanroc because that isn't what Lycanroc is about.

Probably not the sort of character that could make it into Smash but Aegislash for example would be a Pokemon that could actually work as the stance change archetype, being that that's even it's ability in the source material. It's ability is even straight up called Stance Change.

 

[Delzethin]

I should clear up some things.

I know full well that a transforming Lycanroc wouldn't be 100% true to character, but I do want to consider that the Smash team might themselves consider such a thing. We've seen them take creative liberties with other characters before: Zelda isn't ever seen using the goddess spells, Ness and Lucas were given PSI moves they don't normally learn, and Lucario's aura mechanic flat out doesn't exist outside of Smash. A Lycanroc that shifts between forms might be another such creative liberty that they think would benefit the concept without misinterpreting the character too much, with the pros outweighing the cons. I'm not hard committing to such a concept, as I think there're also ways a playable Lycanroc could work with just one form--probably whichever one Ash's Rockruff takes--or even as separate semi-clones if such a thing was itself appealing to the Smash team.

If I've come off too strong about this so far, I apologize. That wasn't my intention. After all, one of the reasons I've felt this character is getting overlooked is because of how many ways you can build a viable concept for it.

I also want to explain why I built the shifting!Lycanroc concept the way I did. We saw the developers move away from full moveset transformations in Smash 4, and while I can't seem to find the quote anywhere, I swear I remember Sakurai saying they'd decided they no longer wanted players to have to learn multiple distinct movesets to use one character effectively any more. If you remember, you hardly ever saw people use Zelda and Sheik combined; it was always just one or the other. Worse yet, when they tried to build the Pokémon Trainer around constantly cycling between Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, all it did was drag all three characters down. That's why I'm wary of character transformations in the same style as in Melee or Brawl: because it's something they've moved away from and I do not want to count on them going back to it.

But that's what makes the (currently) two Lycanroc forms so interesting: they aren't as wildly different as Zelda and Sheik, or Samus with and without her Varia Suit. Their stats are very similar, and their learnsets in their home series are mostly identical. I didn't build the shifting!Lycanroc concept to avoid the trappings of previous transforming characters, I did it because I feel like it makes sense for the forms' movesets to be mostly similar. Perhaps not as 1-to-1 as I've been pushing for, but having movesets that are at least reminiscent of each other would not only reference how similar they are in Sun and Moon, it'd also play into their dualistic nature!

Again, though, that's just one of several ways to go about making a character concept for Lycanroc. What other ideas do you guys have? I'm interested to see.

-

In other news, this line just keeps racking up appearances in stuff.

It's part of a new merchandise set coming to Japan later this month, called "Look Upon the Stars" (insert :thinking: here). The poster on the left features Pokémon counterparts for real world constellations, with Midnight filling in for Bootes, the Shepherd.

On a side note, why Arcanine for Leo rather than, y'know, Pyroar or Luxray?

 

[Deleted member]

Guess who has an event going to tie into a TCG release?


Stone Edge/Fire Fang/Sucker Punch/Swords Dance
No Guard
Life Orb


Crimson Werewolf is getting a lot of love lately.
N3ON
Kind of ironic considering you had it in your roster months ago. We very well could be seeing it show up as the Alola Pokémon of choice.

 

[ryuu seika]

Probably not the sort of character that could make it into Smash but Aegislash for example would be a Pokemon that could actually work as the stance change archetype, being that that's even it's ability in the source material. It's ability is even straight up called Stance Change.

I still want to see Honedge make it. Preferably as a character but, at the very least, as an unthrowable item with a poison drawback.

 

[Kirbeh]

I still want to see Honedge make it. Preferably as a character but, at the very least, as an unthrowable item with a poison drawback.

That actually sounds like a neat idea. A Pokeball Pokemon like Bonsly that works more like an item. That said, I think making it throwable should still be an option. Forcing players to keep an item that prevents from using their normal attacks seems like it'd make Honedge more of a nuisance in which case players would end up avoiding it altogether when they summon it. Otherwise, I think making it have a powerful attack with recoil damage each time you use it sounds interesting. Probably better to discuss that in the appropriate thread though.

Going back to Lycanroc, it does seem that Midnight form currently has the (stone) edge when it comes down to it, I'd wager they'd pick it as the sole version of Lycanroc to include in Smash should they decide to make it playable. If that were the case, then I'd still like to see Rockruff make it in as a trophy and Midday Lycanroc could be another Pokeball Pokemon, with Accelrock as it's main attack.

I went with Midday in Sun, and do like it a bit more than Midnight. Plus, I want to see them tackle a quadruped character again, but I suppose there other characters that could fill that role. I'd honestly be fine with either though, so I'd be down for solo Midnight form. It'd probably be easier on the devs as well.

 

[N3ON]

Guess who has an event going to tie into a TCG release?


Stone Edge/Fire Fang/Sucker Punch/Swords Dance
No Guard
Life Orb


Crimson Werewolf is getting a lot of love lately.
N3ON
Kind of ironic considering you had it in your roster months ago. We very well could be seeing it show up as the Alola Pokémon of choice.

I'd be perfectly happy with that. Lycanroc is one of my favourites from the gen.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd be perfectly happy with that. Lycanroc is one of my favourites from the gen.

While I prefer Midday in context of Pokemon because I had Sun (with Midday being one of the main members of my team), I would have no problem with Midnight showing up in Smash.
Hell, when I saw Lycanroc Midnight on your roster, my feeling was "Kind of a random pick, but that'd be cool". Now it's less of a random pick, which I didn't see coming.

Still want Incineroar more, but the rocky loup-garou would be an acceptable alternative.

 

[Delzethin]

Anyone want to take any odds on if we'll get any major news this month? May of last year was when they first revealed Sun & Moon gameplay and the Alola starters, and in May 2014, Hoenn was confirmed! Could this be when we finally get news on Stars/Sinnoh remakes/whatever they've been keeping under wraps all this time?

 

[Deleted member]

"Lycanroc will not miss!"

Sounds kinda sorta like a Smash tagline (not saying it means anything, just making funny observation).
Which brings up an interesting concept idea that I'm unsure if it would go over well.

What if No Guard was part of what sets Lycanroc apart from the other Smash characters?
That Lycanroc can attack through intangibility frames, making sidesteps, spot dodges, and air dodges (mostly) useless against it?

 

[Skyblade12]

Anyone want to take any odds on if we'll get any major news this month? May of last year was when they first revealed Sun & Moon gameplay and the Alola starters, and in May 2014, Hoenn was confirmed! Could this be when we finally get news on Stars/Sinnoh remakes/whatever they've been keeping under wraps all this time?

Honestly, I'm doubting it. The hints have been coming faster and faster, but I think we may have actually reached a point where everything will be saved for E3. Even though Pokémon typically does their own thing, I think the impact that Pokémon Stars could have on the Switch is big enough that Nintendo is going pull them into their largest announcement block of the year.

 

[Delzethin]

You know...based on what we know so far of the anime and Ash's Rockruff, there may be some fairly solid evidence that they're setting up the existence of a third form.

The common thought process so far is that Ash's Rockruff will go Midday, to set up a rivalry with Gladion's Midnight Lycanroc and reflect Kukui's signature 'mon in Sun and Moon. Thing is...the personalities don't line up. Midday Lycanrocs are typically pretty non-confrontational, keeping to themselves in the wild and only fighting if they consider something a threat. That's a pretty big contrast from Ash's Rockruff always looking to fight and get stronger, and according to the Corocoro excerpt, outright wanting to evolve as a means to that.

But then wouldn't that lend toward Midnight instead? Problem is, that doesn't seem very likely either with the current context! Gladion has a Midnight already, and there's a pretty good chance Ash will have an Incineroar eventually. From a design and writing standpoint, you don't have a major character who looks exactly like an antagonist, much less their rival. You also avoid giving two main characters highly similar personalities if at all possible, especially if they're in the same "party" and interact all the time. The anime writers would know this.

At this point, a yet-to-be-revealed third form would solve every problem listed above. Perhaps something that bridges the gap between Midday and Midnight, a form who enjoys combat but does so only for noble reasons or as friendly competition.

Thoughts?

 

[N3ON]

While I prefer Midday in context of Pokemon because I had Sun (with Midday being one of the main members of my team), I would have no problem with Midnight showing up in Smash.
Hell, when I saw Lycanroc Midnight on your roster, my feeling was "Kind of a random pick, but that'd be cool". Now it's less of a random pick, which I didn't see coming.

Still want Incineroar more, but the rocky loup-garou would be an acceptable alternative.

Well I put it on there partially because the line as a group seemed to be getting an above average amount of attention, and partially because of the three I believed the Midnight Lycanroc would translate the best into a Smash character. Plus it's my fav of the triad.

To be clear I'm not expecting it. But it'd be nice.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

"Lycanroc will not miss!"

Sounds kinda sorta like a Smash tagline (not saying it means anything, just making funny observation).
Which brings up an interesting concept idea that I'm unsure if it would go over well.

What if No Guard was part of what sets Lycanroc apart from the other Smash characters?
That Lycanroc can attack through intangibility frames, making sidesteps, spot dodges, and air dodges (mostly) useless against it?

Doesn't have to be a gimmick though.
Lycanroc's moveset can be filled with shield-breaking attacks, command grabs, moves that stay out long enough to hit dodgers and other kinds of block-denying attacks.
Like a reverse of the traditional RPS system of grab -> shield -> attack, though with the same guess work involved (The lingering moves are ineffective at shields, shield breaker and command grabs would be punished by dodges etc.)

 

[Skyblade12]

You know...based on what we know so far of the anime and Ash's Rockruff, there may be some fairly solid evidence that they're setting up the existence of a third form.

The common thought process so far is that Ash's Rockruff will go Midday, to set up a rivalry with Gladion's Midnight Lycanroc and reflect Kukui's signature 'mon in Sun and Moon. Thing is...the personalities don't line up. Midday Lycanrocs are typically pretty non-confrontational, keeping to themselves in the wild and only fighting if they consider something a threat. That's a pretty big contrast from Ash's Rockruff always looking to fight and get stronger, and according to the Corocoro excerpt, outright wanting to evolve as a means to that.

But then wouldn't that lend toward Midnight instead? Problem is, that doesn't seem very likely either with the current context! Gladion has a Midnight already, and there's a pretty good chance Ash will have an Incineroar eventually. From a design and writing standpoint, you don't have a major character who looks exactly like an antagonist, much less their rival. You also avoid giving two main characters highly similar personalities if at all possible, especially if they're in the same "party" and interact all the time. The anime writers would know this.

At this point, a yet-to-be-revealed third form would solve every problem listed above. Perhaps something that bridges the gap between Midday and Midnight, a form who enjoys combat but does so only for noble reasons or as friendly competition.

Thoughts?

That would be a Pokémon Stars exclusive form, I'm guessing?

If we do get a Switch-exclusive version, I could see it happening (would it trade with the others?). However, I am hesitant to base anything off the assumption that the writers of the Pokémon anime have some intelligent design decisions.

 

[Deleted member]

More merchandise with the tiger and wolf. Including something that implies the Legendary Beasts are showing up as well.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Night form seems to be getting pushed a lot. Im surprised. This could very well be another zoroark (hell there are even some similarities in the pokemon themselves and not just their situations) but midnight form is at least on my radar now after previously being a "no-hoper"

 

[Deleted member]

The sheer absence of Marshadow merchandise to go with the film completely baffles me.

Pikachu's had merchandise (naturally).
Ho-Oh's had merchandise.
Lucario and Piplup have merchandise.
Incineroar and Lycanroc have merchandise.
The Beasts now have merchandise, and we don't even know what role they play.
Charizard has merchandise.
Hell, even Butterfree has merchandise.

But Marshadow? Zilch.

 

[Delzethin]

If I'm reading things right, we're just a few hours away from Gladion and Midnight's anime debuts. The events of this episode could hint toward what they have planned for the Rockruff line going forward and how important this rivalry may be. Keep your eyes open and ears to the ground...

...and be ready to spotdodge and punish any blatantly obvious dash attacks, haha.

 

[Delzethin]

So the episode has come and gone, and...well, we don't know any more than we previously did. If anything, Ash's potential rivalry with Gladion and his interest in getting a Rock Z-Crystal are promising.

In the mean time, let's get some discussion going again. What kind of moves would you want to see used as a playable Lycanroc's special (B) attacks?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

So the episode has come and gone, and...well, we don't know any more than we previously did. If anything, Ash's potential rivalry with Gladion and his interest in getting a Rock Z-Crystal are promising.

In the mean time, let's get some discussion going again. What kind of moves would you want to see used as a playable Lycanroc's special (B) attacks?

I had a few ideas for moves, though they're not neccesarily specials.
They tie into a "No Guard" inspired set where Lycanroc plays with the classic grab -> shield -> attack -> grab system by having things like a command grab and a shield breaker.

Here's a shield that negates grabs in the form of a Down Smash, where Lycanroc summons two stone pillars next to him.
Any attack will break it before the move even ends, but grabs get stopped in their tracks.

Alternatively, it could be an Up Smash where Lycanroc lifts himself by summoning a stone pillar beneath him.

 

[Bowserlick]

No Guard could be a counter that allows Lycanroc to input an angle and attack in that direction. Oh wait... two other pokemon have that special.

 

[Bowserlick]

Alright. I solved the problem. Rockruff is playable.

Down B is a one time transformation. Rocks cover the pup and then crumble away revealing either Midday or Midnight form. The form is chosen by inputting B (Midday) or A (Midnight) during the special animation.

The percentage that Rockruff has accumulated before transformation gives buffs to the chosen form. Higher percentage gives a buff to Midday's specials and higher percentage gives a buff to Midnight's A moves.

 

[Deleted member]

Solved what problem exactly?

Because you made the problems that arise in trying to have both Lycanroc featured worse by adding Rockruff to the mix.

 

[Bowserlick]

Nothing gets worse by adding a puppy.

 

[Deleted member]

Except if that puppy adds more work to a concept that already requires more work than its worth. :V

 

[Bowserlick]

Except if that puppy adds more work to a concept that already requires more work than its worth. :V

Fine. Guess we have to burlap sack the poor puppy and throw him in a stream. Too bad it's weak against water.

If I had to pick one out of the two, I would the pick Midday form. Both designs are well done, but to quote a revolutionist pig "four legs good, two legs bad".

 

[Deleted member]

Fine. Guess we have to burlap sack the poor puppy and throw him in a stream. Too bad it's weak against water.

If I had to pick one out of the two, I would the pick Midday form. Both designs are well done, but to quote a revolutionist pig "four legs good, two legs bad".

"Four legs good, two legs better."

-adopts the puppy-
There are better options that either forcing the puppy to fight or drowning it, you know. :V

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I can't figure out why Nintendo's pushing Midnight Lycanroc so hard as of late. Any ideas?

 

[Kirbeh]

I can't figure out why Nintendo's pushing Midnight Lycanroc so hard as of late. Any ideas?

I assume they just had high hopes for the Rockruff line from the start, and since then Midnight has likely become the most popular of the two versions of Lycanroc. Either that or it's tied to the big roles they currently have planned for it, so they want to promote it. Or some combination of the two.

 

[Deleted member]

I assume they just had high hopes for the Rockruff line from the start, and since then Midnight has likely become the most popular of the two versions of Lycanroc. Either that or it's tied to the big roles they currently have planned for it, so they want to promote it. Or some combination of the two.

From what I understand, Midday is the more popular of the two due to being much more competitively viable.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

From what I understand, Midday is the more popular of the two due to being much more competitively viable.

That and actually having a unique move. They tried to push Counter as Midnight's selling point.

My best guess is they'll push midday when Ash's Rockruff evolves.

 

[Delzethin]

Not much to talk about during the wait for E3, is there?

So let's say there does turn out to be a third Lycanroc form. If such a thing were to exist, what would you want it to be like? Anything from design to stats to signature moves to lore.

 

[Deleted member]

Not much to talk about during the wait for E3, is there?

So let's say there does turn out to be a third Lycanroc form. If such a thing were to exist, what would you want it to be like? Anything from design to stats to signature moves to lore.

Well, we got our Garurumon (Midday) and our WereGarurumon (Midnight), so obviously, we need a flying cyborg wolf Lycanroc like MetalGarurumon. :V

 

[ryuu seika]

Or the martial artist KendoGarurumon.

 

[Deleted member]

Or the martial artist KendoGarurumon.

Actually, that's the other flying cyborg wolf.

Lobomon is the marital artist.

(And fun fact, BurningGreymon, KendoGarurumon, MetalKabuterimon, and Korikakumon were renamed as such in the dub to make connections to the iconic Digimon from Adventure. Their names were completely unrelated in the original Japanese.)

 

[ryuu seika]

Sorry, I thought Kendo was the second stage, not the final pre-fusion form. Guess it's been too long since I watched season 4. Never knew that that was dub exclusive though, would explain why champion and rookie forms weren't similarly named.

 

[Delzethin]

So, just a couple hours away from some kind of big news. Our outlook could improve a lot based on what we end up seeing. Who knows, maybe Stars is real like we've all thought, and they'll reveal a third form during the debut trailer to show what's changed or being affected by the presence of Necrozma or someone else?

 

[N3ON]

So I was at the Nintendo World Store today, and the Pokemon section had big pictures of four Gen 7 Pokemon (I'm sure Pikachu was there too but I've just blocked him out at this point) under which lay all the merch. The four in question were Decidueye, Incineroar, Primarina, and midnight Lycanroc. If nothing else it was interesting to see.

 

[Delzethin]

So I was at the Nintendo World Store today, and the Pokemon section had big pictures of four Gen 7 Pokemon (I'm sure Pikachu was there too but I've just blocked him out at this point) under which lay all the merch. The four in question were Decidueye, Incineroar, Primarina, and midnight Lycanroc. If nothing else it was interesting to see.

There does seem to be more of that kind of thing going on as of late. I guess we'll see if anything comes of it.

Speaking of which, looks like we got blindsided again with the other day's reveals. I thought a Switch version of Pokkén was more likely than not, but it seems they really want it to do well this time now that it won't be on a dying system and will have much easier means of doing local multiplayer. We'll have to see if Pokkén DX will have more newcomers--probably, even if post-release--but if so, I think any kind of Lycanroc has a pretty legitimate chance. After all, we're talking about arguably the most prominent Rock types now, and Rock is one of the only types still absent from the roster.

As for Ultra Sun and Moon, their taking place in an alternate universe might lend toward us seeing more forms after all. But what really has me interested is this:

Midday performing some kind of animation we haven't seen before. Considering it seems to take place in a generic mountain area and has the sun directly overhead at midday in a highly symbolic way you'd never get consistently in an overworld cutscene, this seems to be something new that happens in battle. Are we looking at a new signature Z-Move? And if Midday's getting one, so will Midnight and any new forms as well!