pockyD
Smash Legend
psh i just want to not have to play on floats or cruise for once in my life
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The Tunes Official Crew Thread - Legit the best crew in the world.
- Thread starter Eggm
- Start date
Scar
#HarveyDent
Actually you know what? It's settled. That's what I'm doing. Next SPOC, the ruleset will be a stage ban on the first stage where you completely eliminate one stage from the random list. In subsequent matches you can ban two counterpick stages from the list, but you cannot ban neutrals.
Is that agreeable Pocky D?
Is that agreeable Pocky D?
Magus420
Smash Master
...such as learning how to use more than just a single character effectively, so that they are able to adapt well to a stage counterpick that the character they used in the 1st match does poorly on, and then possibly null or even turn it into their favor on their opponent's own CP because the other didn't have a strong enough secondary character CP against theirs to make up for the now lost stage advantage?
pockyD
Smash Legend
why can't people ban neutrals for CP?
and you should try the strikeout rule =\
and who cares if i approve or not haha
and you should try the strikeout rule =\
and who cares if i approve or not haha
Scar
#HarveyDent
Magus I was waiting for someone to bring that up, and yeah I guess character variety should be tested but I have never liked the idea of allowing something to make a character worse than it already is. I am against learning new characters and that bias is very much present here.
Why not ban neutrals? Well I guess because it's consistent with my argument, you should be able to pick a stage that gives you an advantage, but not a huge one. Neutrals are designed to not give a huge advantage.
Maybe it should be two stages, but NOT two neutrals.
Why not ban neutrals? Well I guess because it's consistent with my argument, you should be able to pick a stage that gives you an advantage, but not a huge one. Neutrals are designed to not give a huge advantage.
Maybe it should be two stages, but NOT two neutrals.
pockyD
Smash Legend
...because for some matchups, "neutrals" (which is a big misnomer btw) are less fair than existing counterpick stages
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Little data? FAWK you Scar, I'm basing this off of more than my last 3 sets with Inui. Jason beat Ken on Battlefield, PC beat Mango on Dreamland 64 and Kongo Jungle 64, and there are MANY MANY MANY MANY more examples of people losing on their counterpick stages.
Using examples of people better than me and also using examples of myself obviously shows that I am using more than my limited experience.
How dare you!? I am not using anything anywhere remotely near what Inui is talking about. I am talking about how in the YEARS of playing smash that there are MANY instances of people losing on their counterpicks, which means that counterpick != instant win.
Yes, I definitely only mentioned my experiences. I did not say
teh_spamerer said:
teh_spamerer said:
NO, they AREN'T more fair at ALL. By only allowing the neutrals you are giving a MASSIVE bias to certain characters.Scar said:
What does Jigglypuff do against Link with your ruleset? He bans Battlefield so the ledge can't gimp him, and what can she ban? Link ***** on FoD, she dies at like 50% on YS from dair, she can't deal with projectile spam on FD, the platforms on Dreamland 64 allow Link to run away and camp, and Pokemon Stadium has a low ceiling plus it favors camping on all the transformations. She already has trouble edgeguarding him and she already has trouble dealing with his projectiles and priority but now she can't counterpick Mute City or Kongo Jungle 64 to make it possible to edgeguard him but he doesn't get hurt at all by the stage list. In fact it highly benefits him because you made it even easier for him to beat Jigglypuff.
What does Jigglypuff do against Space Animals with your ruleset? She loses in both matchups and they're going to ban Dreamland 64. At least she has a shot of winning on Mute City and Brinstar(though Fox is quite good on Brinstar.) By not allowing those stages you are making the two best characters in the game better.
What's Ganondorf going to do against Marth? On every neutral he gets *****. Now he can't take Marth to Mute City where Marth's recovery gets screwed and Ganondorf can't recover on any stage vs Marth anyways. He can't take Marth to Brinstar where the lava assists his recovery and saves him from gimps.
You want me to name more characters and more matchups? There are a LOT of them I can list.
Don't try it. I'm not coming if you do unless someone pays for my entry fee. It's highly biased towards certain playing styles and certain characters.Scar said:
Magus420
Smash Master
Why the **** would Ganon want to fight Marth on Mute City? In fact, there are few stages that I can think of that could actually be worse, lol. He'd neeeeeeeed to have a grabbable edge there to sweetspot, and preferably a techable one.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
Marth can edgehog Ganon on [insert stage here] and waveland tipper fsmash. Cutting out the wavelanding part makes it easier for him, but if he's going to get a tipper fsmash anyways does it matter? Besides, you want to fight Marth on Mute City so you can get uptilt edgeguards
Magus420
Smash Master
It's a lot easier for him to grab the edge with a DJ or at least edgetech->up-b if you can't get close enough with it and then make it back on than you theorize it. Because of that edge, it's actually hard to get gimped unless you mess up, so he can live for a very long time. Without it, he'd get gimped rather easily anytime he slips off the stage a bit from like a d-tilt or throw or something.
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
/ 2 cents
I liked MLG's stage selection with the reset and the ban of the CP stages.
two bans overall would be awesome too tho. I mean I can see it only making jiggs/peach players upset, but like thats why they have more than 2 gay stages.(brinstar,mute, japes).
I liked MLG's stage selection with the reset and the ban of the CP stages.
two bans overall would be awesome too tho. I mean I can see it only making jiggs/peach players upset, but like thats why they have more than 2 gay stages.(brinstar,mute, japes).
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
How do you get gimped when the road bounces you back up?
SwiftBass
Smash Hero
slikvik
Smash Master
MLG rules sux
also lol at the new rule proposal. lets favor marth and fox some more. random laser camping fox player gets to laser camp me on a neutral that's in his favor because and i can't even counterpick properly. yea, thats fair
edit: i like how players with mains who do best on the "neutral" stages are all for it. theres no bias there at all
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
I'm against it and I would be one of those who benefits the most from it.
Magus420
Smash Master
By getting d-tilted and f-smashed for a minute or 2 until it's at a part where the platform has no road underneath. =P
Does it really matter? With all but the handful of parts of the stage that aren't a narrow ass platform that you can easily get poked off of at any time even with a fresh stock, you're then either taking lots of damage or you're eventually dead after many up-bs and/or attempts to make it past Marth from above after bouncing off the stage to get on the platform, whereas if there was an edge you could just grab it and get on. He gets forced into using an up-b to recover way too easily there against him. The same can't be said for Marth.
Cia
das kwl
I think the MLG counterpick rule is amazing.
if for some odd reason you feel like peach, jiggz, or whoever is a threat on a certain stage, you either
a) ban / strike the stage
-or-
b) select a character that makes you more comfortable on said stage
there are 26 characters, (granted only about 8 - 10 get anywhere) the idea is to be prepared for any situation.
if you choose to be a person like BScar87@aim.com and use ONE character, than you are restricting yourself and shouldn't complain when the stage doesn't always work in your favor. you learn to deal with it.. or you don't
-- this has been another VaNz moment
if for some odd reason you feel like peach, jiggz, or whoever is a threat on a certain stage, you either
a) ban / strike the stage
-or-
b) select a character that makes you more comfortable on said stage
there are 26 characters, (granted only about 8 - 10 get anywhere) the idea is to be prepared for any situation.
if you choose to be a person like BScar87@aim.com and use ONE character, than you are restricting yourself and shouldn't complain when the stage doesn't always work in your favor. you learn to deal with it.. or you don't
-- this has been another VaNz moment
JFox
Smash Hero
Spamerer, I refuse to argue with such a hostile person. This isn't something to fight about. Its not like what we are saying is gonna change things, I just wanted to discuss it. You're kinda being a prick. Learn to separate yourself from an argument. There's nothing to get heated about.
The bottom line in my mind is people often choose a character just so they can use a counterpick stage that gives that character a huge advantage. The fact that they would prefer to play their secondary rather than their main should tell you how much of a difference a counterpick stage can really make in a match. This game has been out 7 years, so of course you can find examples that support either side of the argument. Examples don't make good arguments.
And for the record:
- I play Peach, a character who greatly benefits from CP'ing stages.
- My opinion of spam camping to the time limit has nothing to do with my feelings about counterpicks. I have hated the idea since I started playing this game.
-Vanz, I liked your post.
The bottom line in my mind is people often choose a character just so they can use a counterpick stage that gives that character a huge advantage. The fact that they would prefer to play their secondary rather than their main should tell you how much of a difference a counterpick stage can really make in a match. This game has been out 7 years, so of course you can find examples that support either side of the argument. Examples don't make good arguments.
And for the record:
- I play Peach, a character who greatly benefits from CP'ing stages.
- My opinion of spam camping to the time limit has nothing to do with my feelings about counterpicks. I have hated the idea since I started playing this game.
-Vanz, I liked your post.
trademark0013
Smash Champion
hi tunes ppl *waves*
Ok so there are too many posts for me to read, but I want to put in my two cents.
I like the concept of counterpick stages. I think they add another dimension to the game. Either you find a way to overcome stages difficulties, or you use another character. Otherwise, you lose.
The game isn't character vs character, its player vs player. Its pakman vs scar, not Luigi vs Falcon. Being a Luigi main, I know the pain of crappy counterpicks. I have a variety of secondaries I am comfortable with whom I use for counterpick stages if I am not confident with my main on said stages. At the tournament this weekend I used fox and gannon in tourny because of counterpicks, and won both times.
The purpose of counterpicks is to *gasp* tip the favor towards one person's side. The reason it is fair is because the LOSER gets to pick the stage. Thats what makes winning the first match so important. If you lose your second match, you still get the counterpick last match. Why do you think in most professional sports one team gets possession of the ball when the other team scores? It's to give them the advantage because they were scored upon. Ok hopefully this covers the concept of counter picks, but I want to address the concept of counterpick stages.
Like I said before, its player vs player, not character vs character. First of all neutral stages are not neutral to begin with. Tell me samus, jiggly, peach don't have advantages on dreamland. Tell me marth doesn't have advantages on yoshis. Other characters have advantages on counterpick stages. One of the arguments people have used against counterpick stages are not nuetral because usually they can cause damage, change, or in some way disrupt play in a non trivial way. Tell me shyguys on yoshis, the wind on dreamland, and Stadium's awful changes have never screwed you before.
However, the legal counterpicks are chosen because these factors are mitigated and easily avoidable/managable compared to the banned stages.
This is one point I want to get across: a very important part of the game itself is utilizing UNBALANCE or overcoming it. Not even considering stages, some characters are just better in a matchup. Peach kills ICs. Falcon beats samus. Sheik ***** everyone. Its this unbalance that makes stages important. Limiting stages to only neutrals IMO actually takes away from fairness and balance, because the characters themselves are not balanced.
Summary for tl:dr:
Player vs Player not Character vs Character
Counter pick stages make character variability a more useful skill.
Counter pick stages exist to give favor to the loser of the previous match.
Neutrals are not Neutral. (Fox vs marth on FD and the same match on stadium are completely different)
Characters are not balanced and counterpicks help the disadvantaged characters.
Smash centers around exploiting or overcoming unbalance.
I like the concept of counterpick stages. I think they add another dimension to the game. Either you find a way to overcome stages difficulties, or you use another character. Otherwise, you lose.
The game isn't character vs character, its player vs player. Its pakman vs scar, not Luigi vs Falcon. Being a Luigi main, I know the pain of crappy counterpicks. I have a variety of secondaries I am comfortable with whom I use for counterpick stages if I am not confident with my main on said stages. At the tournament this weekend I used fox and gannon in tourny because of counterpicks, and won both times.
The purpose of counterpicks is to *gasp* tip the favor towards one person's side. The reason it is fair is because the LOSER gets to pick the stage. Thats what makes winning the first match so important. If you lose your second match, you still get the counterpick last match. Why do you think in most professional sports one team gets possession of the ball when the other team scores? It's to give them the advantage because they were scored upon. Ok hopefully this covers the concept of counter picks, but I want to address the concept of counterpick stages.
Like I said before, its player vs player, not character vs character. First of all neutral stages are not neutral to begin with. Tell me samus, jiggly, peach don't have advantages on dreamland. Tell me marth doesn't have advantages on yoshis. Other characters have advantages on counterpick stages. One of the arguments people have used against counterpick stages are not nuetral because usually they can cause damage, change, or in some way disrupt play in a non trivial way. Tell me shyguys on yoshis, the wind on dreamland, and Stadium's awful changes have never screwed you before.
However, the legal counterpicks are chosen because these factors are mitigated and easily avoidable/managable compared to the banned stages.
This is one point I want to get across: a very important part of the game itself is utilizing UNBALANCE or overcoming it. Not even considering stages, some characters are just better in a matchup. Peach kills ICs. Falcon beats samus. Sheik ***** everyone. Its this unbalance that makes stages important. Limiting stages to only neutrals IMO actually takes away from fairness and balance, because the characters themselves are not balanced.
Summary for tl:dr:
Player vs Player not Character vs Character
Counter pick stages make character variability a more useful skill.
Counter pick stages exist to give favor to the loser of the previous match.
Neutrals are not Neutral. (Fox vs marth on FD and the same match on stadium are completely different)
Characters are not balanced and counterpicks help the disadvantaged characters.
Smash centers around exploiting or overcoming unbalance.
Scar
#HarveyDent
Scar has an unfair advantage on Scar's story. Everyone bans that stage vs me. It makes me sad.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
yea th advantage jiggz gets on dreamland (out of the neutrals) is easy to see, but its no more of the extra advantage a falcon can get on yoshi story against a samus instead of a stage like stadium or FoD.
teh_spamerer
Smash Master
...what? Fighting Samus is significantly less painless on Pokemon Stadium than it is on FoD.
Also, Pakman is amazing
.
pockyD
Smash Legend
GANNON BANNED
Eggm
Smash Hero
Lol, I've probably been gayed by CP stages more than anyone and I still think its fair. Although I'm all for NY brawl rules. 2 stage bans and a stage strike for r1. xDDDDD Rofl you wanna know how badly i've been gayed on them? I lost r2 to mathos in pools cause he went jiggs/mute city and he doesnt' even play jiggs and i lost. And i 4 stocked him r1 and r3 in falco dittos, they take no talent, however if thats how you want to win if thats satisfying for you i have no problem with it.
2 stage bans and a stage strike for r1. xDDDDD Rofl you wanna know how badly i've been gayed on them? I lost r2 to mathos in pools cause he went jiggs/mute city and he doesnt' even play jiggs and i lost. And i 4 stocked him r1 and r3 in falco dittos, they take no talent, however if thats how you want to win if thats satisfying for you i have no problem with it.
Scar
#HarveyDent
lmao @ Chibo. Yeah man I really don't think you know what you're talking about beyond your experience vs me.
So yeah I think you're just talking about your limited experience as opposed to, say, a general rule for CF vs Samus.
lol Fixed. I am pretty alright on YS, at Stadium Samus dies at ridiculously low %s, I counterpicked that vs HugS, it's just that your classic missile storm makes you think you have options vs CF. FoD I'm pretty sure you picked just because I hate it more than anything.
So yeah I think you're just talking about your limited experience as opposed to, say, a general rule for CF vs Samus.
pockyD
Smash Legend
yes geez i'm sure that fox and falco have been the most gimped by CP stagesLol, I've probably been gayed by CP stages more than anyone and I still think its fair. Although I'm all for NY brawl rules.
get real eggmaster
and play me in starcraft sometime, doyoung says yer a BEAST
Eggm
Smash Hero
LOL spacies do suck on cp stages I swear .. I also suck at sc despite what do says and my sn however I'll play sometime just im me
pockyD
Smash Legend
get on the HUB
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
banning two stages...that's fine
Mew2King
King of the Mews
wow @ losing to mathos's jiggs on mute city
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
lol yea i guess that was more for the scar matchup, not falcon lol
trademark0013
Smash Champion
i agree with everything pakman said
whats the big deal anyway? i'm getting that ppl dont like the fact that u can ban 2 stages. but arent there like 100 stages anyway?
whats the big deal anyway? i'm getting that ppl dont like the fact that u can ban 2 stages. but arent there like 100 stages anyway?
Eggm
Smash Hero
Yeah, but there might be one neutral you despise as well as one cp stage.. *glares at FoD and japes*
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
you know, if we move towards this new idea...we're eventually gonna use only like 2 or 3 stages...
Eggm
Smash Hero
Whatever, its more important that everyone reads my Georgia thread.
trademark0013
Smash Champion
u mean like japanese smash?
How can you not like FoD?
Its such an amazing stage unlike Yoshi story >.<