The Tunes Official Crew Thread - Legit the best crew in the world.

[JFox]

You are always going to have better counterpick stages than your opponent because matchups differ depending on what stage. If it had been all neutrals Vidjo probably would have taken me to Dreamland 64 instead of Mute City and I probably would have taken him to Poke Stadium instead of Poke Floats. Both stages would just have given us smaller advantages than the stages we actually picked.

EXACTLY. The stages would be less of a game breaker, making the game more dependent on skill. The way the game is played, sometimes it seems like the only important match is the first one, and even that could end up being a counterpick stage against your character if you get an unlucky random stage.

Example- Falco vs. Peach. Falco bans random stage FD. Peach bans Yoshi's Story. First stage turns out to be DL64. Close match, Falco loses to Peach because of a lousy stage. 2nd match- Falco wins on Stadium. 3rd Match- Falco changes ban to Brinstar, Peach goes Mute. OR Falco changes ban to Mute, Peach goes Brinstar. Peach wins in 3rd match.

Now its very possible in this scenario for the Falco to be the better player who would have won had the Peach not been allowed to use Brinstar or Mute City. But because he lost on the first match, and on is 2nd worst stage because of the random rule, he loses the set. Now you can say "well he should have had a 'back up character' for counterpick stages." But even if you do have a back up, lets say you go Pika on Mute, then the opponent can counterpick that character and use sheik on Mute, making it more likely that you won't counterpick a character.

There's really nothing wrong with the 6 neutral stages in my mind, so long as you both are allowed one strike. Perhaps 1 stage gives a character a bad match up, but thats what your ban is for. And the rest typically don't tip the scale too much.

 

[Scar]

EXACTLY. The stages would be less of a game breaker, making the game more dependent on skill. The way the game is played, sometimes it seems like the only important match is the first one, and even that could end up being a counterpick stage against your character if you get an unlucky random stage.

Sorry Spam, I agree with JPeach 100% here. The larger the advantage due to the stage picked, the less the match is a competition about skill. That's a part of why I hate Jiggs so much, she's a gay character already and basically every CP stage makes her gayer. First match vs Jiggs is TOO important.

 

[Teczer0]

Now I know I'm going to eventually see an essay by teh_spammerererererererer

oh well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGc8RRBIHOU

 

[DCScribZ]

Characters like Peach and Jiggs make banning stages a waste of time. One of the reasons my 1st pool at Pound 3 took the longest to finish was because there were 3 Jiggs mains in it, which basically meant each of their sets against everyone was going to 3 games.

This is even worse in pools because these characters can steal games from people they shouldn't be taking games off of. And what is that supposed to prove? That when someone who misses out on getting out of their pool because a Jiggs or Peach main took a game off of everyone in their pool, and you just won matches in the sets you won, to win the same number of sets as him? That's pretty weak.

I'm not saying it eliminates skill completely - it's not like these people never lose any of these corny counterpicks. But it just puts SO much emphasis and importance on the first match. These characters probably wouldn't be as useful if they lost their counterpicking advantage, but I doubt any Peach or Jiggs mains would switch just because they lost their Mutes and Brinstars.

 

[HoMaLoN]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4556153#post4556153
This post puts an END TO MELEE vs BRAWL Drama...HOPEFULLY!!! :-(

 

[Teczer0]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4556153#post4556153
This post puts an END TO MELEE vs BRAWL Drama...HOPEFULLY!!! :-(

I didn't read you post or anything...

But we weren't even debating Brawl vs melee....

not at all.......

 

[HoMaLoN]

o ok.... <crickets cricketing in the background>

 

[Scar]

I read Bum's post, I don't see what it has to do with anything. Nintendo tried to make 2 kiddie games, one's name was Melee and one's name was Brawl. Melee turned out to be more than just a kid's game. With Brawl, well I guess we'll see.

 

[Teczer0]

I read Bum's post, I don't see what it has to do with anything. Nintendo tried to make 2 kiddie games, one's name was Melee and one's name was Brawl. Melee turned out to be more than just a kid's game. With Brawl, well I guess we'll see.

I'm almost surprised you read that block of nearly unreadable text

 

[teh_spamerer]

EXACTLY. The stages would be less of a game breaker, making the game more dependent on skill. The way the game is played, sometimes it seems like the only important match is the first one, and even that could end up being a counterpick stage against your character if you get an unlucky random stage.

More dependent on skill? Sorry JFox, but you're acting like a scrub here so I'm going to have to **** you hard for it.

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill.

Skill IS required on Brinstar, Corneria, Green Greens, Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, Kongo Jungle 64, and Poke Floats. I'm sorry that you absolutely 100% loathe camping with a fiery passion, but the ruleset is NOT tailored to aggressive styles on neutral stages only. Fortunately, the ruleset is fine by only banning stages that make winning 100% impossible unless you're Fox or stages that are ******** like Icicle Mountain.

All you are saying is that playing aggressive should be the only legitimate strategy in the game and the only one that requires skill. In the mind of JFox, any form of excessive camping is "gay" and deserves to be banned. Sorry JFox, the strategies used in this match: http://youtube.com/watch?v=f53aeimv8I0 are not any more skilled than the strategies used in this match: http://youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

Example- Falco vs. Peach. Falco bans random stage FD. Peach bans Yoshi's Story. First stage turns out to be DL64. Close match, Falco loses to Peach because of a lousy stage. 2nd match- Falco wins on Stadium. 3rd Match- Falco changes ban to Brinstar, Peach goes Mute. OR Falco changes ban to Mute, Peach goes Brinstar. Peach wins in 3rd match.

Lousy stage? Wow, now you're hating on even the neutrals. What if Peach goes back to that "lousy stage" Dreamland 64 or goes to another "lousy stage", Fountain of Dreams? I guess that's too unfair as well and Peach should counterpick Pokemon Stadium and switch to Bowser to avoid being "lousy." Your example is awful. If the Falco lost R1 he is at a disadvantage but he can still win the set if he's the better player. Guess who won R1 in the second set of me vs Chu? I did. Guess who won the set? Chu. ggnore

I don't even care if R1 Peach wins at last stock 190% on Dreamland 64 with the Falco SDing at 0% on one stock and Falco loses the set because he gets counterpicked on Mute City or Brinstar. Sucks for the Falco, they weren't consistent in a tournament set and lost because of it.

Now its very possible in this scenario for the Falco to be the better player who would have won had the Peach not been allowed to use Brinstar or Mute City.

Let's suppose in a hypothetical scenario a Falco player wins 55% of his friendlies vs a Peach player. Logically, this suggests that the Falco player would probably win if the two players fought in tournament. Does that mean he will? No, he could very well lose 0-2 even though he's the better player. The more skilled player is already not necessarily going to win in a set and you want to ban stages because they force both the more and less skilled players to adjust their strategies and play differently. That is stupid. No competitive game that isn't dominated by scrubs forces you to play one way only and bans all other forms of playing.

But because he lost on the first match, and on is 2nd worst stage because of the random rule, he loses the set. Now you can say "well he should have had a 'back up character' for counterpick stages." But even if you do have a back up, lets say you go Pika on Mute, then the opponent can counterpick that character and use sheik on Mute, making it more likely that you won't counterpick a character.

You are suggesting that counterpick stages should be banned because using them intelligently is the best strategy.

I'm going to quote Sirlin again.

Banning a tactic simply because it is “the best” isn’t even warranted. That only reduces the game to all the “second best” tactics, which isn’t necessarily any better of a game than the original game. In fact, it’s often worse!

Just go Peach or Jigglypuff if they're so good on Mute City? Don't want to learn them? Then suck it up and stop crying because the only one forcing you to use your main is you.

There's really nothing wrong with the 6 neutral stages in my mind, so long as you both are allowed one strike. Perhaps 1 stage gives a character a bad match up, but thats what your ban is for. And the rest typically don't tip the scale too much.

Let's look at Falco vs Marth. Pokemon Stadium and Dreamland 64 give Falco an advantage. Fountain of Dreams and FD give Marth an advantage. Yoshi's Story and Battlefield are kind of in the gray area as to who gets the advantage. No matter what stage either character bans if both players are equally skilled the match will probably still be decided by stages. Banning Corneria because Falco can run away and camp lasers is stupid. You can't stop Marth from attacking you if all you want to do is camp lasers on Fountain of Dreams. How is it any fairer that stages are banned where Marth has difficulty dealing with Falco camping lasers when stages where Falco has difficulty dealing with Marth if he tries to camp lasers are banned? It isn't.

Characters like Peach and Jiggs make banning stages a waste of time. One of the reasons my 1st pool at Pound 3 took the longest to finish was because there were 3 Jiggs mains in it, which basically meant each of their sets against everyone was going to 3 games.

LMAO fighting Jiggs doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to take a match off of you. I beat Doyoung's Jigglypuff on Brinstar with Fox . You want to know what HE does when I go to Poke Floats? Switch to Fox. Why? Because he's not a scrub and realizes you need to play more than one character in this game regardless if you have more fun playing one character than you do playing multiple characters.

This is even worse in pools because these characters can steal games from people they shouldn't be taking games off of. And what is that supposed to prove? That when someone who misses out on getting out of their pool because a Jiggs or Peach main took a game off of everyone in their pool, and you just 2-0'd to win the same number of sets as him? That's pretty weak.

What's pretty weak is that everyone in that pool lost a match to a Jiggs or Peach main on their counterpick stage. Those people need to STEP IT UP. Watch this match: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ugm21Zr1g8I

Bob$ was going to lose on a stage that gives Fox a massive advantage over Doc. What did he do? Step it up and win anyways. If you don't make it out of your pool because a Jiggs or Peach main takes matches off of everyone then you deserve to not have made it out of pools. That's all there is to it.

 

[Teczer0]

Jeez spamerererer

You multiquote too much >_>.

 

[LOL_Master]

wow, spammerer, you should be called techero, lewlewlewlew

 

[CT Chia]

i dont even see why this is all being debated.

counterpicks are there to give you a slight advantage in a match where you are already at a disadvantage in the set.

dont complain about losing to jiggz and stuff. if you lose, you lose. if your so much better than the jiggz then you should have won anyway.

counterpick stages are normally sorta out there for a reason. theres a reason stages like FD and BF are neutral, and stages like poke floats, mute city, and brinstar are counterpick.

to stop all these character imbalances on stages, the only way would be to find a single stage which benefits every single character in the exact same way, and guess what, that's impossible. unfortunately some characters even have a better time on different neutrals. but w/e, no game is perfect. tourney rules are already made so you can ban a stage, essentially changing the rules so you can protect yourself from a potentially hazardous stage.

 

[LOL_Master]

good post chibobobobobobbobbobbo

 

[Scar]

dont complain about losing to jiggz and stuff. if you lose, you lose. if your so much better than the jiggz then you should have won anyway.

This is the part that's irritating. If I'm better, I shouldn't have to worry about getting gayed by a stage. I shouldn't have to be THAT much better that I can not only beat a gay campy character, but beat her on Mute City. Just look at my set with Darc, that third match wasn't even CLOSE to the first and second.

tourney rules are already made so you can ban a stage, essentially changing the rules so you can protect yourself from a potentially hazardous stage.

Yeah, but what about Jigglypuff, let's take a look. DK64 is gigantic, she will never die off the top. Mute City and Brinstar, LOLZ. Rest is unpunishable if she lands on the tracks or the lava, and on Mute she gays recoveries like it's her job, while other characters don't have such an easy time punishing hers.

Now what am I supposed to ban? I'm going to go to Mute City or Brinstar either way, and the fight is simply not fair. A slight advantage for Jiggs is DL64. That's the biggest advantage she should be getting, honestly.

@Spam: I shouldn't have to step it up that much.
@LOLMaster: wtf are you talking about?

 

[LOL_Master]

so what are you saying bob? that you can never win against a jigglypuff?

 

[Scar]

I hope that everyone besides you knows what I'm saying, but for your sake... I'm saying that contests vs Jigglypuff are decided less by who is a better player due to the amount of counterpick stages that she excels on. The winner of the set depends disproportionately largely on who wins the first match.

In an ideal game it would depend solely on who is the better player, and the rules are supposed to be designed to keep it as close to this as possible. The counterpick rules in Smash are good until the addition of non-neutral stages, which just throw in more factors that shift the focus away from who is actually better.

 

[teh_spamerer]

This is the part that's irritating. If I'm better, I shouldn't have to worry about getting gayed by a stage. I shouldn't have to be THAT much better that I can not only beat a gay campy character, but beat her on Mute City.

I don't see why YOU'RE complaining. Captain Falcon does well on both Mute City AND Brinstar. It's not like his "amazing recovery" gets hurt by the lack of ledges on Mute City and Jigglypuff can't ledgecamp on either stage. She can't on Mute because there are no ledges and she can't on Brinstar because the lava comes up and hits her. After the lava hits her, you knee her in the face and she dies.

Yeah, but what about Jigglypuff, let's take a look. DK64 is gigantic, she will never die off the top. Mute City and Brinstar, LOLZ. Rest is unpunishable if she lands on the tracks or the lava, and on Mute she gays recoveries like it's her job, while other characters don't have such an easy time punishing hers.

DK64 is an AMAZING stage for Falcon. There is so much space to run around freely and frolic. How's Jigglypuff going to catch you if you're running around like a speed demon? She can't, there is simply too much space. So you get to run around and frolic while she busts her *** off trying to hit you and then you can just run in whenever the FAWK you want to and combo her. Rest is unpunishable if she lands on the tracks or the lava? LMAO no, knee her in the face. If I'm Fox it'll be an upsmash or an upair that she eats, which results in her dying at absurdly low %s off the ceiling

Now what am I supposed to ban? I'm going to go to Mute City or Brinstar either way, and the fight is simply not fair. A slight advantage for Jiggs is DL64. That's the biggest advantage she should be getting, honestly.

I'd ban Mute City vs Jigglypuff because Falcon does very well on Brinstar. If she's going to get an edgeguard you can just plummet into the lava and DI towards the other side of the stage. She can't chase you across and then you get back on the stage without some gay gimp. On the other hand, if SHE hits the lava you can run at lightning speed and knee her. It's not a slight advantage for Jiggs on DL64, are you crazy? Dreamland 64 is the land of Falcon's dreams come true. The platforms are set up beautifully and there is lots of space to run around in. Not to mention Jigglypuff loses the matchup and knee still kills at relatively low %s. Use this for inspiration: http://youtube.com/watch?v=MIzUsIPzq1k

@Spam: I shouldn't have to step it up that much.

Come on, STEP IT UP!

 

[Cia]

I just remembered thanks for nothing vanz

You gave everyone that advice to beat me and LK actually took a stock off of me using your blasphemy technique

LMFAO!! what a jerk

 

[LOL_Master]

so what now scar? you should ban 2, 3 stages????

 

[JFox]

spam, you take examples and try to show that they make things true. Who cares if Chu beat you even after losing R1? He's Chu. He would win even if items were set on high. Does that mean items are fair? I can give the same kinds of non-sense arguments as u, and than say "step it up". Thats such a lame attempt at debating. And unlike you, Scar knows how to debate a topic and take his best interests out of focus while debating.

What you gave is just an example of two people that have a wide skill gap. I'm talking about situations where the skill gap is closer.

And like I stated before, you can say that "you should just play a different character on those stages" doesn't really cut it. People can counterpick characters after you pick a character. Ex. Say pika picks rainbow cruise, on a jiggs so they go Ganon. Their opponent can go Falco, so rather than using the stage to their advantage, the stage forces them into a counter matchup.

BTW I have never once said anything about aggro vs campy styles, thats all in your head. Jiggs going Mute on Ganon doesn't make the match any more campy as FD, or any other stage, all it does is make it even harder for Ganon to recover.

Tell me something- what is the point of a set being best of 3/5/7? Are you saying that one match should be all that's necessary to win a set in tourney, regardless of ANYTHING that goes on such as suiciding etc.?

 

[teh_spamerer]

spam, you take examples and try to show that they make things true.

Good examples, you know, help to support your argument. That's why you use them.

Who cares if Chu beat you even after losing R1? He's Chu. He would win even if items were set on high. Does that mean items are fair?

What an awful example. You first said stages like Kongo Jungle 64 should be put into the same category as Hyrule Temple(banned) and now you're saying that stages like Kongo Jungle 64 are as fair as items set to high. Don't even bother posting a response if all you're going to do is spout idiotic nonsense that makes Inui logic look infallible.

I can give the same kinds of non-sense arguments as u, and than say "step it up".

HAHAHAHA that's funny. Your "arguments" are nothing more than you crying and displaying how much of a scrub you are to smashboards. You don't even address my arguments and then you proceed to cry like a baby and say that one match determines everything in a set when it obviously doesn't. I've lost R1 and still won the set on multiple occasions and I've won R1 and still lost the set on multiple occasions. I have seen the same happen to other people. So I, unlike you, have come to the conclusion that the better player will end up winning anyways if they play better and that counterpick stages are fine. You, on the other hand, just cry and moan about all the non neutral stages like a scrub.

Thats such a lame attempt at debating.

You know what the lamest attempt at debating is? Completely ignoring what the other person is saying and mindlessly saying they're wrong.

And unlike you, Scar knows how to debate a topic and take his best interests out of focus while debating.

Right. He's DEFINITELY not complaining that he wants to have a better chance at winning by making it illegal for Jigglypuff to counterpick a stage. You also are doing nothing of the kind .

What you gave is just an example of two people that have a wide skill gap. I'm talking about situations where the skill gap is closer.

Fine, here are examples of PC beating Mango on HIS counterpicks after losing the first set to Mango.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=AkUEgYmnd30
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z_jkf8-91cc

And like I stated before, you can say that "you should just play a different character on those stages" doesn't really cut it. People can counterpick characters after you pick a character. Ex. Say pika picks rainbow cruise, on a jiggs so they go Ganon. Their opponent can go Falco, so rather than using the stage to their advantage, the stage forces them into a counter matchup.

Uhh, Pikachu gets ***** by faaaaaaaar too many characters in the first place. An intelligent Jigglypuff would just have gone Falco in the first place if they play him and ***** whatever crazy person decided to use Pikachu. Please give good examples instead of garbage ones.

BTW I have never once said anything about aggro vs campy styles, thats all in your head.

Really, that's all in my head? Who was the one who said "Spam, that was really upsetting to watch. I don't understand how you can enjoy playing that way. Thats not was smash is about, running a match to the time limit and winning by percent. Thats really lame. I just can't agree with that ****" in response to me linking to me vs Vidjo? That's right, YOU did. Don't lie and say you never said anything about aggro vs campy styles because that statement I just quoted is you crying about me winning by playing a campy style and counterpicking a campy stage instead of winning by whatever made up rules you have in your head about how smash is "supposed" to be played.

Jiggs going Mute on Ganon doesn't make the match any more campy as FD, or any other stage, all it does is make it even harder for Ganon to recover.

...is this supposed to be a joke? You watched Eggm lose to Jigglymaster on Mute City because he spent 90% of the match camping under the stage. Ganon can't recover on any of the neutrals vs Jigglypuff anyways, the lack of ledges hardly changes much in that regard.

Tell me something- what is the point of a set being best of 3/5/7? Are you saying that one match should be all that's necessary to win a set in tourney, regardless of ANYTHING that goes on such as suiciding etc.?

I am saying that if you don't SUCK BALLS at smash you can still win on a counterpick stage. M2K beat Ken on Battlefield. Mango beat PC on Yoshi's Story. Mango beat M2K on Corneria. M2K beat PC Chris on Dreamland 64 in Marth vs Fox. There are PLENTY of examples that show it's not impossible to win on a counterpick stage.

 

[pockyD]

i can't believe i agree with spam, but i do

winning on different stages // in different matchups is a huge part of competitive melee; that's why we even have stage and character counterpicks at all

if you want to cut it down to one single stage only, then I can accept your argument (even though i certainly don't agree with it), but either you want stage variety, or you don't... you can't want stage 'variety' that in reality just favors your character

 

[Scar]

The whole point I'm making is that yes, different stages should be legal and they should give characters advantages, but they shouldn't give characters HUGE advantages. That is all.

Edit: @ spam, I'm not just talking about Jiggs vs Captain Falcon, I'm not just talking about me, I'm talking about Smash as a game and the rules we made for tournament play. I don't think the counterpick stages should be legal, I think that anyone that's better than anyone else can win a best 2/3 on neutral stages only with one stage ban.

A larger advantage due to stage selection shouldn't be necessary unless the player sucks balls.

 

[pockyD]

so really, what stages should be legal (seriously, I'd like to hear a proposed alternate list)?

and how do you distinguish between "bowser sucks on poke floats" and "bowser sucks ." ?

 

[teh_spamerer]

The whole point I'm making is that yes, different stages should be legal and they should give characters advantages, but they shouldn't give characters HUGE advantages. That is all.

They don't give "HUGE advantages" unless you pick characters that are horrifyingly bad on counterpick stages. Inui did exactly the same on his counterpicks of Mute City(2x) and Brinstar the last 3 times he played against me in tourney as he did on the neutral matches. All six matches were last stock and as a matter of fact he did worse on Brinstar than he did on Pokemon Stadium. He almost got 3 stocked on Mute City the last time he counterpicked it vs me but managed to bring it to last stock.

I think that anyone that's better than anyone else can win a best 2/3 on neutral stages only with one stage ban.

And I KNOW that anyone's that better than anyone else can win a best 2/3 with counterpick stages allowed with one stage ban.

I'm talking about Smash as a game and the rules we made for tournament play.

The rules are fine. An example I have used before is Fox vs Marth on Yoshi's Story and Fox vs Marth on Poke Floats. On Yoshi's Story, Fox it is hard to the point of nigh impossible to run away and laser camp Marth. On Poke Floats it is hard to the point of nigh impossible for Marth to stop Fox from running away and laser camping him. If you are saying Poke Floats gives too much of an advantage to Fox because he can run away and laser camp then you can also say Yoshi's Story gives Marth too much of an advantage because Fox can't do that. It's only the way of the scrub to declare that Poke Floats should be illegal because it gives Fox too much of an advantage but Yoshi's Story shouldn't be banned.

A larger advantage due to stage selection shouldn't be necessary unless the player sucks balls.

Anyone who loses on a counterpick stage deserved to lose because they didn't play as good as their opponent or picked a character that sucks there. In both cases it is solely the losing player's fault for losing.

 

[Scar]

I just don't see a problem with having the six neutrals, Fountain, FD, Battlefield, DL64, Yoshi's, and Pokemon Stadium. I don't think it's necessary to include PokeFloats, Mute City, Jungle Japes, or Brinstar. I guess DK64 is neutralish, same with Rainbow Cruise. I just don't see why they should be included.

They don't give "HUGE advantages" unless you pick characters that are horrifyingly bad on counterpick stages. Inui did exactly the same on his counterpicks of Mute City(2x) and Brinstar the last 3 times he played against me in tourney as he did on the neutral matches. All six matches were last stock and as a matter of fact he did worse on Brinstar than he did on Pokemon Stadium. He almost got 3 stocked on Mute City the last time he counterpicked it vs me but managed to bring it to last stock.

Inui blows.

And I KNOW that anyone's that better than anyone else can win a best 2/3 with counterpick stages allowed with one stage ban.

Not necessarily. Hypothesize player A and player B, they are basically even in skill, player A (Fox) is a little bit better than player B (Jiggs). Ban Mute City and Pokemon Stadium. Random picks DL64. Player B wins on DL64 6 times out of 10.

6 times out of 10, player B is going to win this set. On the neutral that the Fox picks (or maybe even Corneria), player A is just better so he's going to win, and of course ALWAYS wins on Corneria because Jiggs dies at like zero. Player B wins more frequently than 50% against a better player. Makes no sense.

The rules are fine. An example I have used before is Fox vs Marth on Yoshi's Story and Fox vs Marth on Poke Floats. On Yoshi's Story, Fox it is hard to the point of nigh impossible to run away and laser camp Marth. On Poke Floats it is hard to the point of nigh impossible for Marth to stop Fox from running away and laser camping him. If you are saying Poke Floats gives too much of an advantage to Fox because he can run away and laser camp then you can also say Yoshi's Story gives Marth too much of an advantage because Fox can't do that. It's only the way of the scrub to declare that Poke Floats should be illegal because it gives Fox too much of an advantage but Yoshi's Story shouldn't be banned.

I very thoroughly disagree. Marth's advantage vs Fox on YS is about the same as Fox's advantage vs Marth on PS. Fox vs Marth on Floats is ****, Fox will win unless he's terrible, honestly.

Anyone who loses on a counterpick stage deserved to lose because they didn't play as good as their opponent or picked a character that sucks there. In both cases it is solely the losing player's fault for losing.

This is just not true, and what I said in my last two hypotheticals about the Marth and the Fox, and the Fox and the Jiggs, is evidence against your claim here.

It's not just because the one player is better or not, it has to do with both player ability and stage selection.

 

[Cia]

daaaaaaaaamn TL:DR TL:DR

 

[Scar]

daaaaaaaaamn TL:DR TL:DR

...honestly.

 

[pockyD]

...but we all know that, for example, yoshi's story favors marth

why would we not then ban that?

To me the problem is judging the 'extent' to which a stage should be allowed to favor a character, and since that is completely subjective (and also, it's impossible to find stages that don't favor anyone, which is the main reason we have stage variety to begin with), justifying banning stages that aren't "clearly" broken (lol i hate this argument) is very difficult

edit: and Rainbow Cruise = neutralish? GET OUT NOW

 

[Scar]

Yeah for ICs it's definitely not neutral, and I'm sure there are other characters who get ***** by a moving stage. I wasn't going to say RC but some tournaments have it on random?? So I figured why not say it's neutralish.

It's definitely not as broken as Floats, Japes, Brinstar or Corneria, Corneria mostly because of lasers, that's like really gay. Mute City isn't THAT bad I guess... all these stages are gay though compared to the neutrals.

 

[CT Chia]

Not necessarily. Hypothesize player A and player B, they are basically even in skill, player A (Fox) is a little bit better than player B (Jiggs). Ban Mute City and Pokemon Stadium. Random picks DL64. Player B wins on DL64 6 times out of 10.

6 times out of 10, player B is going to win this set. On the neutral that the Fox picks (or maybe even Corneria), player A is just better so he's going to win, and of course ALWAYS wins on Corneria because Jiggs dies at like zero. Player B wins more frequently than 50% against a better player. Makes no sense.

You're just throwing all these random numbers out there for which character wins on what stage. Unless you actually have data to prove these statements, it really doesn't mean anything. (Think back to when I said me and GOTM had about an 80% chance of failing Physics 3 and you proved to me why that statement makes no sense, this is essentially the same thing).

Also now, if Jiggz can consistently beat people that aren't as good as her, then (A) wouldn't the Jiggz player be considered better with consistently beating higher ranked opponents, and (B) wouldn't Jiggz be higher than mid on the tier list and be used more often in tournies? Jiggz is barely a threat as it is, theres like Sliq, King, Mango, Will, Magus, and like 2 others lol. characters have different styles of skill. Look at a fox or falco and you'll see crazy tech skill, look at a Samus and you'll see patience and missiles (lolz ), or look at a jiggz and you'll see a pro gimper. if your so worried about jiggz and her "imbalance" on these stages, then switch to marth or someone jiggz sucks against. or hell, go jiggz if you so must on them or someone else. remember, every aspect and every advantage/disadvantage is available to all players. just because you're frustrated that someone else plays jiggz and that they do amazing doesn't mean that you can't be jiggz urself and do amazing stuff.

You're mainly bringing a character matchup into play, Jiggz vs Fox. Sure, on bigger stages like DL64 or weird ones like Brinstar or something. Jiggz may have the advantage. You're acting like this is the only terrible game breaking matchup for a fox. Try a Samus v.s. a Falcon (especially on FD ) or against like a sheik or marth. Or better yet, look at the tough time characters like Bowser or Mewtwo have.

There's no way it will be perfect. Stuff happens.

 

[Scar]

Chibo, no, it's not essentially the same thing, as a matter of fact they aren't the same at all. I'm hypothesizing players and setting one as better than another. Saying someone wins something 60% of the time is NOT AT ALL like saying that someone has an 80% chance of getting grades that will yield an "F" based on the grades they have already received.

What you said made no sense whatsoever, what I'm saying is perfectly legitimate. See the difference?

Edit: Just FYI, I want to disagree with everything that you said, honestly.

Jiggs is barely a threat as it is

Where do you get this from? No one in the world wants to play a Jigglypuff player. Will barely plays Melee and he beats people that you would never even DREAM of beating. There just aren't that many of them out there, but the good ones are a SERIOUS tournament threat to people who play ANY character. Who does Jiggs suck against, honestly? You say Marth but like wtf? Marth sucks on basically every counterpick stage. This is FAR from the point but like your facts are all wrong.

Also now, if the Jigglypuff player can consistently beat people that are better than her, then (A) wouldn't the Jiggz player be considered better with consistently beating higher ranked opponents

First of all, I fixed this to the best of my ability because what you said made no sense. And if this is what you meant to say, then this is the whole point of the debate. If she can consistently beat people that are better than her then yes she should be better than the people in question, but when it comes down to it sometimes the Jiggs player only wins because she has a near-guaranteed win on her counterpick.

The only point I'm trying to make is that Jiggs vs Fox on Brinstar is A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MATCH than Jiggs vs Fox on say FD.

Marth vs Fox on even STADIUM is A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MATCH than Marth vs Fox on PokeFloats. In one case it's fair, in another it really isn't. It's more or less plain to see.

(B) wouldn't Jiggz be higher than mid on the tier list and be used more often in tournies?

Well, you play Samus and she's no higher than Jiggs, Pakman plays Luigi and he's low on the list... aside from PA there aren't that many Samus mains, and there are less Luigi players than Jiggs players. I can't account for where she is on the tier list but the tier list isn't carved into stone, I think it's wrong honestly.

Again this is far from the point, but like no, both your A and B are not necessarily true.

 

[pockyD]

Not necessarily. Hypothesize player A and player B, they are basically even in skill, player A (Fox) is a little bit better than player B (Jiggs). Ban Mute City and Pokemon Stadium. Random picks DL64. Player B wins on DL64 6 times out of 10.

Why didn't player A ban dreamland then?

with the one-ban rule, one should almost always ban a neutral

and thirdly, i could just interpret this as an argument that dreamland is unfair and should be banned along with the rest of them

 

[Scar]

and thirdly, i could just interpret this as an argument that dreamland is unfair and should be banned along with the rest of them

This is a very important point to make. Dreamland gives Jiggs an advantage, but it's fair. I can't give a value to how many times a Jiggs player would win or lose to a Fox player on DL64 vs Mute City or Brinstar, but to be sure it's more times on the counterpick stages than on DL64.

There is a difference between advantageous and unfair, and I think most CP stages at the very least allow for the possibility of an unreasonably unfair or broken matchup. As competitive Smash players our rulesets should minimize these things.

 

[teh_spamerer]

I just don't see a problem with having the six neutrals, Fountain, FD, Battlefield, DL64, Yoshi's, and Pokemon Stadium. I don't think it's necessary to include PokeFloats, Mute City, Jungle Japes, or Brinstar. I guess DK64 is neutralish, same with Rainbow Cruise. I just don't see why they should be included.

Those stages should be included(except Jungle Japes because tournament matches or sets should not be decided by a random event) because they require skill to win on. Random awful Jigglypuff player #905123 isn't going to win by counterpicking Mute City against you. Unless it's impossible to win on a counterpick stage it shouldn't be banned. You can change your character and/or your strategy and win against your opponent's counterpick. If you can't then you need to step it up because better players could have won under the same conditions.

Inui blows.

Completely irrelevant to the point. Even if he does blow he still took me to last stock on the neutrals. If he didn't do any better on his counterpicks, which you are saying give a HUGE advantage, you are obviously incorrect in assuming they give a HUGE advantage.

Not necessarily. Hypothesize player A and player B, they are basically even in skill, player A (Fox) is a little bit better than player B (Jiggs). Ban Mute City and Pokemon Stadium. Random picks DL64. Player B wins on DL64 6 times out of 10.

The Fox player is more than a little bit worse than the Jigglypuff player if he loses 6 out of 10 matches on Dreamland 64 to Jigglypuff. Fox vs Jigglypuff is a highly uneven matchup that greatly favors the Fox player. Dreamland 64 might be a really good Jigglypuff stage but it doesn't make up for the matchup being awful and Fox is good on that stage too.

6 times out of 10, player B is going to win this set. On the neutral that the Fox picks (or maybe even Corneria), player A is just better so he's going to win, and of course ALWAYS wins on Corneria because Jiggs dies at like zero. Player B wins more frequently than 50% against a better player. Makes no sense.

See above.

I very thoroughly disagree. Marth's advantage vs Fox on YS is about the same as Fox's advantage vs Marth on PS. Fox vs Marth on Floats is ****, Fox will win unless he's terrible, honestly.

Fox's advantage on Pokemon Stadium does not come from laser camping. The whole issue was not how big the advantage that either character has when playing with an optimal strategy, the issue was how big the advantage is if Fox plays a certain style. IF Fox tries to run away and laser camp for the majority of the match on Yoshi's Story, he will get ***** as badly as the Marth will trying to stop the Fox from laser camping on Poke Floats assuming the two players are about the same skill level. If someone has an excessively campy style they should be allowed to camp on their counterpick stage. If someone has a highly aggressive style they should be allowed to play aggressive on their counterpick stage. If you are going to ban stages that prevent only one of those two styles from existing, then you are being highly biased and behaving like a scrub.

 

[pockyD]

but we all "know" that for, say, marth vs. peach, marth has an advantage on yoshi's story, while peach has an advantage on dreamland (humor me and assume this is true; if you really don't want to, we can make it Marth/FoD and Falcon/dreamland or something like that). If we are truly aiming for complete "fairness", why would we not just ban these two stages as well? who gets to decide the range of 'advantage' that is fair as opposed to unfair?

 

[Scar]

I didn't read everything yet but I will, but Spam let me show you to my signature. Stop making dumb assumptions about [things] based on such little data. No, it isn't obvious that since Inui took you to last stock on neutrals and you beat him on counterpicks that counterpicks don't give as large an advantage than neutrals.

When you use examples like that it doesn't help prove your point, honestly. That's only in your limited experience. You need to separate your experience from what you perceive to be a general rule for all players on average. You are doing the same thing Inui does, I remember back in Melee vs Brawl I claimed that you used Spam Logic, on par with Inui logic except yours isn't about how you're better than other people, it's about everything else.

You just use your own personal experiences to prove general rules, and it can't be done. That argument is not valid.

Anyways, @ Pocky since his post is small, in an ideal world there would be one perfectly fair stage but there really isn't. FD is gay for cgers, FoD sucks for Falcon and a lot of people just hate it, Dreamland is huge and favors Jiggs/Peach/Luigi/other characters who can easily recover long distances, Yoshi's is awesome for Fox, characters that can walljump, and is great for Marth and G-Dorf, Battlefield... enough said, and Stadium has small blastboxes all around, awful for Peach/Jiggs/Luigi and others.

However if you just allow those six stages and two bans, I think everything would be much more fair. It'll shift the emphasis in sets from stages to players. Don't you think so?

 

[pockyD]

I think more should be said about battlefield; why don't we do battlefield only (aside from the fact that it's boring)?

and I have always been for allowing more stages + giving more bans, I think that is very fair

and finally, I have also always been for having separate bans for "neutrals" and counterpicks (in fact I encourage you guys to try the strikeout rule, it's pretty awesome and very "fair" )

 

[Scar]

and I have always been for allowing more stages + giving more bans, I think that is very fair

YES. I very very strongly agree. Giving more bans and even allowing more stages forces players to learn more about the game, then it doesn't come down to "well everyone knows that Jiggs ***** here so license to kill!"

I might try this at SPOC, I think it's a great idea. I would love to ban FoD as a neutral against Jiggs, then be able to ban BOTH Mute and Brinstar. Ahhhh.

If I had to pick the one stage that would be the most fair to play on for the rest of Melee it would be Battlefield. The platforms are very fair, very standard, the stage isn't too big and the blastboxes are what you would expect. The only problem is that ****ing ledge and getting trapped under it, but that's something that we could all learn. I'm sure it isn't random, it's just glitchy and gay.