The true cause of tripping

[kooky]

phanna, in ur video the third mario trips first and then the second trips, then the third trips again. it MIGHT BE (don't kill me, i personally think tripping is random, but i don't want to say there aren't any chances that it's not totally random), that, how you stated in the post above, no two people trip simultaneously. I remember a video where 3 sheiks/zeldas transformed (simultaneously, with the wavebird method), BUT the transformations DID NOT finish the same time. The first character slot finished first, then the second slot, then the third. MAYBE the game can't handle two people tripping the same time too, and therefore, if 2 people would trip simultaneously, only one will trip. This could mean the third slot trips first, because the game handles the third slot with the biggest disadvantage (like in the transformation video). Now why did then the second mario trip the second time and not the third one? Because the third one was still in some getting up animation. I know, this sounds silly, but phanna, could you test tripping with 3 marios and one wavebird a bit more? Maybe get a video where the first slot mario trips und not the third, or 2 marios trip exactly the same time. This would finally statisfy all the people who think tripping is NOT random.

PS: sorry if my english is bad, i hope you can understand what i want to say.

EDIT: I just see that you were the guy with the transition/transform video^^
Ok, it would be really cool if you would test the randomness of tripping a bit more, i really hope you do it.

I'm sorry to quote myself but it seems that my post wasn't recognized at all. It's just basically an explanation for the mario tripping video (it seems to be random, but my post could explain it.) I personally think tripping is RANDOM, but if phanna could upload a video where slot 1 mario trips or slot 2 mario trips without slot 3 mario in standing up animation, then i would be very statisfied.

 

[raptorbaby10]

I don't wanna get flamed or anything, but is tripping really that bad?

 

[Greenpoe]

I don't wanna get flamed or anything, but is tripping really that bad?

Yes...
1.Luck is bad...I wouldn't want to lose my money and the game because I was "unlucky".
2.It's completely unpredictable.
3.It has caused people to lose, ruined combos, etc.

 

[Brainiac_man]

I'm sorry to quote myself but it seems that my post wasn't recognized at all. It's just basically an explanation for the mario tripping video (it seems to be random, but my post could explain it.) I personally think tripping is RANDOM, but if phanna could upload a video where slot 1 mario trips or slot 2 mario trips without slot 3 mario in standing up animation, then i would be very statisfied.

Actually, there is a side theory that the "trip points" that are built up are simply applied to the probability of tripping, therefore, that test would be invalid.

 

[MajinSweet]

How long until the 1337 H4XX0RZ decode the game and seek for the algorithm that causes tripping?

Before you flame, I must tell you bunch of flamethrowers, that that way (thanx to 1337 h4xx0rz) the competitive Pokémon community found about EVs and IVs. When people first heard of them, they were: "ZOMFG ur ******, ther's NO WAH pokémon training can be so complex (...)"

Nowadays, competitive Pokémon training is all about EVs and IVs.

You know, this is probably what we need to do. I realize that tripping probably is random to a certain extent, but I'm convinced that controller input does have some sort of an effect. Me and 3 friends have been playing Brawl almost everyday since it came out in America. One if my friends trips all the time, an almost insane amount. Our matches might last around 3 mins on average, he will probably trip 3 ,4 maybe 5 times each match. Sometimes more, a few times he tripped twice in a row. My other two friends seem to trip a normal amount, like you would see from any match. Maybe 1 trip a match or so, maybe 2 sometimes. I hardly ever trip, I've gone 5 matches in a row without tripping. You may say this is all from "luck" but, its been way to consistent from the amount of time we have played. I personally don't think it matters but, my friend who trips a lot uses a classic controller. The rest of us use GameCube controllers. We can use all the different "trials" we want, but the problem is--they are all subject to error and will never get perfect results. How tripping is produced may be just to complicated to be discovered by random tests. The only true way to know I guess is..."1337 H4XX0RZ".

 

[Cubemario]

It's random, end of story.

 

[LoVer]

It's random, end of story.

And you know this how?

Seems to me that know one will know for sure until we take a look at the code or hear the mechanism from a reliable source. Something tells me that you're not that reliable source.

 

[DragonRider-ofSmashBros]

All of these theories about tripping are looking to be true.... and I don't think its random. There is a little more info (if thats what you want to call it.....) making it look like tripping is not random.

I kind of like kooky's idea about the tripping mario thing, because if you play other games (not just smash) that have some sort of animation to do a certain thing, the whole game slows down, or puts off another persons animation.

Also the fact that trips are recorded even thought they are "random" is also a helpful fact. Why would they record something that's random? That's like recording how many mews per pokeball or kat&annas per assist trophy.

I also believe that certain characters have a better chance of tripping than others. Ive played as Ganon only 5 or 6 times and I've tripped at least once every match as him. When using Pikachu, which I've used over 150 times, I rarely trip at all.

I'm not going to say that there is no chance that its random, I'm just saying more testing needs to be done first before anything can be said, including that it was random.

 

[Greenpoe]

You know, this is probably what we need to do. I realize that tripping probably is random to a certain extent, but I'm convinced that controller input does have some sort of an effect. Me and 3 friends have been playing Brawl almost everyday since it came out in America. One if my friends trips all the time, an almost insane amount. Our matches might last around 3 mins on average, he will probably trip 3 ,4 maybe 5 times each match. Sometimes more, a few times he tripped twice in a row. My other two friends seem to trip a normal amount, like you would see from any match. Maybe 1 trip a match or so, maybe 2 sometimes. I hardly ever trip, I've gone 5 matches in a row without tripping. You may say this is all from "luck" but, its been way to consistent from the amount of time we have played. I personally don't think it matters but, my friend who trips a lot uses a classic controller. The rest of us use GameCube controllers. We can use all the different "trials" we want, but the problem is--they are all subject to error and will never get perfect results. How tripping is produced may be just to complicated to be discovered by random tests. The only true way to know I guess is..."1337 H4XX0RZ".

That DOES make a lot of sense, since with the classic controller, there aren't those little indentations so that you know if the control stick is perfectly straight or not, THUS it would be off MUCH more often and by a larger amount, thus he would trip more often, and he apparently does.

 

[Fluke]

Sounds very logical, it's like in real life if you misplace a step, you don't always fall and hit the ground. There is a "chance" you regain and don't trip at all. So if you never misplace a step (eg perpendicular analog), then there is no misplaced step to trip on.

GREAT FIND. BUT THERE IS NO WAY TO STOP FALCO's SHINE FROM TRIPPING YOU!! MUHAHAHAHAAA (I hope)

 

[Polish Rifle]

Is it possible for Nintendo to patch games through Wii downloads? I know it's possible for Xbox cause there were always Halo updates. But if the news on how dumb tripping is got back to Nintendo, I wonder if they would issue a downloadable patch...

 

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

Sakurai also could have just made it so you were less likely to trip with the Wiimote, ya know because its harder to fight with that POS. That seems like a more logical answer to me.

 

[dingostar29]

Here is a real experience that might answer the fact that tripping is completely random.
Long story short-Playing as Sonic, go to custom stage, running on regular blocks, trip while running perfectly straight.

 

[AAP]

You know, this is probably what we need to do. I realize that tripping probably is random to a certain extent, but I'm convinced that controller input does have some sort of an effect. Me and 3 friends have been playing Brawl almost everyday since it came out in America. One if my friends trips all the time, an almost insane amount. Our matches might last around 3 mins on average, he will probably trip 3 ,4 maybe 5 times each match. Sometimes more, a few times he tripped twice in a row. My other two friends seem to trip a normal amount, like you would see from any match. Maybe 1 trip a match or so, maybe 2 sometimes. I hardly ever trip, I've gone 5 matches in a row without tripping. You may say this is all from "luck" but, its been way to consistent from the amount of time we have played. I personally don't think it matters but, my friend who trips a lot uses a classic controller. The rest of us use GameCube controllers. We can use all the different "trials" we want, but the problem is--they are all subject to error and will never get perfect results. How tripping is produced may be just to complicated to be discovered by random tests. The only true way to know I guess is..."1337 H4XX0RZ".

just a couple questions:

When you guys are playing do you keep consistent characters?

Any significant difference in style amongst the group(campy,agro, hyper)?

there must be reason for some players to be more or less prone to tripping. playstyle would obviously affect it. but there must also be some trends within the game associated with character or terrain.

 

[Greenpoe]

Here is a real experience that might answer the fact that tripping is completely random.
Long story short-Playing as Sonic, go to custom stage, running on regular blocks, trip while running perfectly straight.

It's not about running straight, but how you push the control stick. If you don't push it perfectly perpindicular to the ground, then you're going to have a greater chance of tripping.

 

[Zek]

Needs more testing. The naysayers coming in and shooting everybody down is not helpful.

 

[Joshu]

This could explain why I trip way more often when I'm drunk than when I'm sober…

 

[MajinSweet]

just a couple questions:

When you guys are playing do you keep consistent characters?

Any significant difference in style amongst the group(campy,agro, hyper)?

there must be reason for some players to be more or less prone to tripping. playstyle would obviously affect it. but there must also be some trends within the game associated with character or terrain.

Well, for the most part we have all been trying out a bunch of different characters. But, if I had to narrow it down my friend that trips a lot uses Marth the most. I've probably played as Ike more than anyone else. One of my friends that trips on "average" probably has most of his time to Pit and the final guy--I can't really even pin to a single character. He has been trying everyone.

The problem with the play style part is that my friend that trips a lot, is very aggressive--just like me. Yet I don't trip much at all. My other two friends are probably more balanced, the person I can't pin a main to is probably the closest to "campy". We have been playing pretty much all the stages too--so I'm not sure exactly what causes the differences in tripping.

 

[iros]

Hey all

Tripping is a big problem in Smash Brothers Brawl. A lot of people have come to the conclusion that its a randomly occuring move aimed to punish players that "run" a lot. Nintendo would have been silly to punish players for running, its a basic movement skill! However, I have good news, as I have discovered how to avoid tripping (or at least what causes it). When you smash the analog stick in a direction, you will perform a dash attacks. You have a 45 degree cone on each side of the analog stick to use to perform the smash dash. Now, if you are perpendicular to the ground with the direction of your analog stick, you will NOT fall. However, the more off you analog stick is whenever you start a dash, the greater the risk for tripping, and here is why - EVERY time you dash and you do NOT smash the controller perpendicularly to the ground below your character (be it a sloped surface, flat surface, whatever, but it must be perpendicular) then your character will build up what I call a trip count, adding to the previous trip count how many degrees off your analog stick was from the ground. There is a trip threshold that each character has, which I haven't determined yet, but I'm sure exists from my playtesting. What happens is once your trip count exceeds the characters trip threshold, you fall. I'm going to be doing some playtesting and hopefully coming up with character specific thresholds, but this is the true cause of tripping.

Thanks for the info. but I should add this...in my personal opinion is not to punish characters who run a lot...I think is for punishing this thing...(look at the vid, is some video of a local tourney in my country, and notice how they move side by side quickly, its a "tip" to "confuse" the opponent)

PD.: Either way...I think that it will be veery difficult to do in SSBB, b/c of the frames...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-_SXcDd2k

 

[Masque]

I only finished reading page 2--and perhaps I misunderstood what the OP had meant--but it seems that Yuna was the only person who even implied an understanding that "perpendicular" is most certainly not "straight forward." "Perpendicular" means that one segment/line/vector, etc. forms a right angle with another segment/line/vector, etc. Thus a perpendicular line to the surface across *hinthint* which one is dashing would be a vertical line--which is all well and good, but in the context of these theories about dashing and "trip points," it makes the whole idea kind of...well, wrong.

The word you're looking for is "parallel," meaning that two segments/lines/vectors, etc. point in the same direction; in this case, the two "lines" (if you will)--the segment that serves as the "surface"/stage, and the vector that serves as a character's movement--are in the same direction. While the stage doesn't move, we could take a vector that lies on the line and find that the direction of the two vectors are the same: horizontal.

So the lesson? "Parallel" =/= "perpendicular."

 

[Corigames]

Thus is a cool idea, but I believe the youtube video about how it is random more.

Set multiple wavebird recievers to the same channel and then move about with all of them in the same spot moving at the same time from the same input. They will RANDOMLY fall over.

/discussion

 

[Cookiez]

Sounds very logical, it's like in real life if you misplace a step, you don't always fall and hit the ground. There is a "chance" you regain and don't trip at all. So if you never misplace a step (eg perpendicular analog), then there is no misplaced step to trip on.

Its also logical because, it's like in real life if you misplace a step, you accumilate "trip points".

...

 

[kario_mart]

certainly possible i mean i played a lot yesterday and didnt trip much b/c i was playing melee and i was keeping my analog stick perp to the ground.

possile.

 

[AphoticBankai]

If I understand this correctly, then the argument about the 3 Marios can be debated against.

-If- I get this correctly, each individual character has a certain chance of tripping each time the control stick is not "smashed" perpendicular to the ground. That chance becomes greater and greater each time this happens, and eventually the code generates a 1 instead of a 0 for the tripping factor or something, and your character falls on its ***.

So if 3 marios were controlled by a single controller, every smash done incorrectly would add a percentage to all 3 Marios, but each Mario would still be running an individual algorithm that decides if they fall or not.

Same thing goes for tripping at the start. You've got a small chance, but still a chance.

As for the Wii Mote, well, I'm not sure if there's a certain degree of error that you can press the D pad, or if you can press down and side at the same time but still go to the side or what. So for that seems the most valid argument against this. Chances are though, there's more than one factor involved with tripping.

Still, I'll try testing this myself. Any suggested characters?

 

[Senshuu]

Oh yeah, just had a thought... how about CPU tripping? I've seen them do it as much as I do. In that case, do you think it's just programmed in to make us human players feel better?

 

[Corigames]

I think it is just random and that there should have just been a switch to turn it off. Lastly, I think the only way we'll know for sure is when we get an AR for Brawl or anything like it.

 

[DragonRider-ofSmashBros]

Its also logical because, it's like in real life if you misplace a step, you accumilate "trip points".

...

"trip points" as in maybe balance? or stamina? If you keep tripping in real life, you wont always fall, but after a while you will..... anyways the point he was trying to make is that it IS somewhat life like in the way that if you don't walk straight forward, you have a better chance of falling over then if you did.

 

[Greenpoe]

Oh yeah, just had a thought... how about CPU tripping? I've seen them do it as much as I do. In that case, do you think it's just programmed in to make us human players feel better?

We all agree that there is a chance to trip, but the debate is on if pushing the stick perfectly parrellel will change (lower) the chances of, say, pushing it with a slight tilt upward, or something like that.

Thus is a cool idea, but I believe the youtube video about how it is random more.

Set multiple wavebird recievers to the same channel and then move about with all of them in the same spot moving at the same time from the same input. They will RANDOMLY fall over.

Please read the whole topic before trying to derail it with an old argument. Tripping is still chance either way, but it's about lowering the chances (or rather, not allowing the chance to trip increase) by moving the stick slightly differently.

 

[Zek]

Thus is a cool idea, but I believe the youtube video about how it is random more.

Set multiple wavebird recievers to the same channel and then move about with all of them in the same spot moving at the same time from the same input. They will RANDOMLY fall over.

/discussion

Sorry, but no. Nobody's saying that tripping isn't random. They're saying that the chance to trip only comes into play, or is much higher, when the stick is smashed at an angle instead of straight. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, but it needs to be tested before we know for sure. Nobody hits the stick perfectly every time in actual gameplay.

 

[AznHalfCaucasian]

Man.....Tripping....WHY Sakurai......tell us why you put tripping in for (any reasons).

-Does anybody know or stated, from Sakurai himself, why he put tripping in the game.

Just curious

 

[MookieRah]

Nobody hits the stick perfectly every time in actual gameplay.

Unless of course you are using a wiimote. Then the entire argument goes to crap.

The fact of the matter is this is merely a guess as to why tripping occurs. It's not based by anything factual. It goes against the very nature of the simplification of Brawl. It's also something that when tested is hard to prove either way. Overall, the chance that this has ANYTHING to do with tripping is incredibly small.

 

[Cookiez]

"trip points" as in maybe balance? or stamina? If you keep tripping in real life, you wont always fall, but after a while you will..... anyways the point he was trying to make is that it IS somewhat life like in the way that if you don't walk straight forward, you have a better chance of falling over then if you did.

You're arguing something totally different, if you care to look closesly. "Trip points" accumilate, thus making the possibility of tripping greater each time the possibility arises. (For example, 0.1% the first time, 0.2% the second.)

In your statement, the chance of tripping does not change at all within each individual "possible trip", but the OVERALL pobability of tripping at least once over many possible oppertunities does.

Anyhow, comparing Video Games to RL is epic fail.

 

[Zek]

Unless of course you are using a wiimote. Then the entire argument goes to crap.

The fact of the matter is this is merely a guess as to why tripping occurs. It's not based by anything factual. It goes against the very nature of the simplification of Brawl. It's also something that when tested is hard to prove either way. Overall, the chance that this has ANYTHING to do with tripping is incredibly small.

That doesn't prove anything, the wiimote could just have a uniform chance to trip instead. I don't care how likely it sounds, there are people claiming to have reproduced it and it warrants proper testing. Blindly shooting people down is not contributing at all.

 

[RawkHawk2010]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but I turned two wavebird recievers to the same frequency and played All-star co-op with Ike and Marth. Oddly, both characters tripped simultaneously each time a trip occurred.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 

[Cookiez]

Not sure if this was mentioned yet, but I turned two wavebird recievers to the same frequency and played All-star co-op with Ike and Marth. Oddly, both characters tripped simultaneously each time a trip occurred.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Please provide videos. Im not trying to discredit you, but seeing as there's already been tests with Wavebirds on the same frequency which have shown characters falling at different times I find it highly unlikely.

 

[MookieRah]

That doesn't prove anything, the wiimote could just have a uniform chance to trip instead.

I'm sorry, but your argument gets destroyed by the wiimote. To state that there are different properties to the different control sets is just silly. Also, before you say anything about B-sticking, you don't have to set your controller that way to perform the same effects, it's just infinitely easier to do when set that way.

Don't you guys realize that when you constantly amend the idea with more and more outlandish variables (such as the wiimote having a truly random chance when the others have some trip point system) that the credibility of the theory goes to crap?

Think about it... the OP didn't take into account the wii mote. His entire argument is based on an idea he had and hasn't been backed up by anything. When the wii mote control was brought to light, that pretty much invalidated his idea. So why then do you hold onto this thing so much when there is so little proof of it?

there are people claiming to have reproduced it and it warrants proper testing. Blindly shooting people down is not contributing at all.

There are people who also claim that Mother Teresa was a saint, when in reality she caused a lot of people to suffer and die just so she could feel closer to God. Don't believe me? Look it up. Just because someone has an outlandish idea and a few people come out and say they can see results... which is really just dumb cause tripping is all random and I very much doubt in "testing" this they are doing it purely horizontal and all these stupid complicated variables that they claim... Seriously? Do I have to finish that sentence? Why would you prefer to believe that the tripping system is so incredibly convoluted and dumb when it's pretty obvious that it's just random?

 

[Cheezball]

The reason of tripping is that there are rocks! The ground isn't always flat and perfect. ROCKS4TOPTIER!!1one!!!eleven!!

 

[Zek]

I'm sorry, but your argument gets destroyed by the wiimote. To state that there are different properties to the different control sets is just silly. Also, before you say anything about B-sticking, you don't have to set your controller that way to perform the same effects, it's just infinitely easier to do when set that way.

Don't you guys realize that when you constantly amend the idea with more and more outlandish variables (such as the wiimote having a truly random chance when the others have some trip point system) that the credibility of the theory goes to crap?

Think about it... the OP didn't take into account the wii mote. His entire argument is based on an idea he had and hasn't been backed up by anything. When the wii mote control was brought to light, that pretty much invalidated his idea. So why then do you hold onto this thing so much when there is so little proof of it?

Of course he didn't take into account the wiimote, who plays with a wiimote? I don't see why it's outlandish. You think about it, what would you do if you wanted to implement a tripping system based on the stick angle and had to make it work for the wiimote? Either you'd make the controller immune to tripping or you'd just give it a flat random chance to emulate the effect. It's a perfectly rational explanation. My point is that the way the wiimote works is a natural extension of the OP's idea. It doesn't make it less likely at all, let alone disprove it. I don't deny there's a decent chance he's wrong, but it needs to be tested conclusively, by doing stuff like this:

Interesting.

For the past ten minutes, I've sat here testing this theory.

I'd very carefully tilt the stick exactly properly, and dash. Once the animation ended, I'd do it again. I did this for two minutes straight with no trips. Then, I intentionally missed. I tripped. I did this repeatedly for a while. basically, 4 2-minute tests have shown that this theory is, in fact, plausiable. More testing is needed.

It's possible that this is a nod towards GC users.

What we don't need is people just walking in here dismissing it offhand based on nothing but their own assumptions. I'd test it myself if I had access to the Wii right now.

 

[FeArTeHsMaSh]

I'm sorry, but your argument gets destroyed by the wiimote. To state that there are different properties to the different control sets is just silly. Also, before you say anything about B-sticking, you don't have to set your controller that way to perform the same effects, it's just infinitely easier to do when set that way.

Don't you guys realize that when you constantly amend the idea with more and more outlandish variables (such as the wiimote having a truly random chance when the others have some trip point system) that the credibility of the theory goes to crap?

Think about it... the OP didn't take into account the wii mote. His entire argument is based on an idea he had and hasn't been backed up by anything. When the wii mote control was brought to light, that pretty much invalidated his idea. So why then do you hold onto this thing so much when there is so little proof of it?

At the very least, its plausible that tripping, while containing the factor of randomness, may also be slightly affected by the theories presented in this thread. Yes, his argument might be proven wrong, but they haven't

Instead of being blindly critical, why not test his theory several times with the different controllers and record the outcome, monitoring to what extent the joystick angle has on the character when compared to the wii remote, rather than rely on a two minute youtube video, which at best only demonstrates that tripping is based off of probability. AlmightyPancake has apparently tested the theory several times, with believable results. Even if his results are wrong, as least he tested them, rather than scream "wii remote you phail."

Yes, there are people in this thread who are throwing out random elements to counter criticism of this theory, and that makes them sound less appealing, if not outright outrageous. However, wrong they might be, in terms of the original theory, it might be proven, however unbelievable (and actually, much to my dismay towards Sakurai) that tripping is a combination of both probability and directional influence.

There are people who also claim that Mother Teresa was a saint, when in reality she caused a lot of people to suffer and die just so she could feel closer to God. Don't believe me? Look it up.

Source? I've looked it up, and my conclusion is leaning towards the fact that you found one critical website which over-extended the truth and were gullible enough to believe it. Yet, I'm willing to test this theory, so I'll commend you if I managed to find at least three.

 

[NintenJoe]

videos would be nice proving this theory, but it's a great idea. This would explain why I trip more often on stages like pirate ship...