The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[Leonyx]

But, I can tell what I think it is in my head, but I can't get it out of my head, hence why I suck, and why I can't word it. That's why I still post it

It would be a lot better to just post whatever is in your head. Even if it ends up being some kind of word vomit, there can still be something of value to the post for the analysis of the matchup. Posting a ratio without any context (especially when you keep posting about how you can't tell word it) isn't helpful at all.

I would appreciate it if we could get back to the matchup at hand.

 

[Wintermelon43]

It would be a lot better to just post whatever is in your head. Even if it ends up being some kind of word vomit, there can still be something of value to the post for the analysis of the matchup. Posting a ratio without any context (especially when you keep posting about how you can't tell word it) isn't helpful at all.

I would appreciate it if we could get back to the matchup at hand.

Well, what I mean is that It's in my head but I cannot say or do it for the life of me. It's kinda like some people doing their driving test. They KNOW everything, but they can't actually do it at all. Which also results in me doing bad in this game.......

 

[Leonyx]

Well, what I mean is that It's in my head but I cannot say or do it for the life of me. It's kinda like some people doing their driving test. They KNOW everything, but they can't actually do it at all. Which also results in me doing bad in this game.......

What I'm suggesting you do is post what's in your head despite your lack of confidence to do so. That's much more beneficial to the thread than constantly posting about how you can't do it.

I'd rather not have to reply about this again. Please just post what you can on the topic.

 

[Togii]

Captain Falcon

I'm pretty sure everyone has decent experience in this matchup due to Falcon's popularity. I play a lot against one of the best Falcons in AZ, and handily won against a Falcon in pools last week.

Pros
Really predictable recovery, easy to gimp
We can crouch to avoid a lot of his attacks
He's combo fodder since he's heavy and falls fast

Cons
Tons of KO power and we're already light
Much faster than us on the ground and in the air

Copy Ability
In casual play, this is a god-tier move to style on your opponents. In competitive play, this move is god-awful. If you ever swallow Falcon, get rid of this ability ASAP as your neutral b will almost always be better.

Custom Moves
Jumping Inhale - just adding another tool to Kirby's list of moves that can gimp Falcon for an early kill
Hammer Bash - charging a hammer can result in a huge punish due to Falcon's speed and power
Upper Cutter - it's a kill move, it makes it very difficult for Falcon to spike you offstage, and it's great at stage-spiking Falcon's recovery
Stone(?) - this is pretty much personal preference, although I find it very difficult to use Meteor Stone effectively against Falcon, as he likes to recover very low with Falcon Dive.

Stage Picks
Avoid stages with vertical walls, as Falcon's vertical recovery is amazing if he has access to an easy wall jump. My preferred stages against Falcon are Battlefield (platforms make it more difficult for him to juggle effectively) and Halberd (sharking potential and low ceiling). I try to avoid Delfino Plaza because a lot of the transformations have really close side blast zones, and Falcon can get easy fthrow kills due to his sliding property on his dash-grab.

Additional Notes
Falcon has to play this matchup pretty intelligently to stand a chance.

Most Falcons are used to being able to rely on their dash grab/attack, which we can crouch under. Once they realize this, all the Falcons I've fought will try to wall me out with spaced bairs, since their approach game is pretty much destroyed by our crouch. Be smart, and get in when you can.

Utilt combos are devastating against Falcon, so try to get them when you can. Also, opt for horizonal kill options if possible. Falcon is pretty diffcult to kill vertically, and you can exploit his recovery even if you don't kill horizontally.

Offstage is where this matchup gets really exciting. Kirby's vertical and horizontal air speeds are pretty bad, so most Falcons will try to get either a bair stage spike or a dair on you if you're offstage and recovering low. If you have Upper Cutter, you can use it on reaction to punish this and maybe get a stage spike. If not, just try to air-dodge or have a tech ready. If Falcon is offstage, Kirby has SO MANY ways to kill him. If he recovers high - Jumping Inhale, fair, Upper Cutter, bair, or double-dair. If he recovers low - Falcon can mix up when he uses Falcon Dive, since it snaps to ledge at any point of the move. Try to wait for him to start Falcon Dive or get low enough to where he HAS to use it, then you can gimp him with practically any aerial (dair is preferred). Ledge trumps are also really easy to pull off against Falcon, especially with Upper Cutter - using Upper Cutter against a low-recovering Falcon is practically a guaranteed stage spike or ledge trump if you use it correctly.

Oh, and on the chance that Falcon starts comboing the **** out of you (which will likely happen at least once), returning to the ledge is your best bet. With Kirby's floaty-ness, Falcon can get easy uair juggles on him if you try to recover to mid-stage. If you think you can read what he's going for and airdodge appropriately, though, you can get a really nice dair to whatever you want as a great punish.

Overall Score
This matchup is 60:40 , in my opinion. Falcon has to generally put in a lot more effort than Kirby to get a comparable result, and Kirby absolutely wrecks Falcon offstage.

Note: This is only for customs on. I have no experience with customs off, but I can only assume that it would be cake for Falcon to edgeguard Kirby without Upper Cutter, probably making this matchup even or in Falcon's favor.

 

[Paxadin]

My personal experience against Sonic hasn't been that good, keep in mind I'm basing this off FG.
I had a match against a spin dashing Sonic and I found that I simply couldn't touch him. He would spin dash into up-special and I couldn't follow him. My only option was to trade with the spin dash, which only ended badly for me.

What's the point of the Sonic doing anything else when he can wall you completely with this. (If I'm wrong and someone has tips on how to properly hit a sonic like this, PM me, the help is appreciated)

I feel like this is one of Kirby's most difficult match ups, I would give this a 35:65.

 

[Sparky15]

Are there any viable moves that Kirby has that can at least clash with Sonic's side and/or down special? I heard that jab1 can do that, but it doesn't work all the time. But if we can find something that does, then that would help out with the MU, even though I kind of doubt it...

 

[SmashRacer]

I think Inhale beats out Sonic's Spin Dash

 

[Sparky15]

I think Inhale beats out Sonic's Spin Dash

But it's not like Sonic will always charge at us on the ground. He can adapt in many ways to punish the Inhale. I feel like that's a risky option that shouldn't be used often...

 

[Paxadin]

But it's not like Sonic will always charge at us on the ground. He can adapt in many ways to punish the Inhale. I feel like that's a risky option that shouldn't be used often...

He can just Spin dash into an aerial attack, or up-special to get away.
Which seems to me, Kirby can do nothing about.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

He can just Spin dash into an aerial attack, or up-special to get away.
Which seems to me, Kirby can do nothing about.

I haven't fought too many Sonics against Kirby to even have true MU experience, but maybe try spacing out your Forward Air & Back Air sweetspots or float a little higher and fast fall Down Air. Perhaps your Neutral Air right as Sonic breaks into an aerial.

 

[Sparky15]

I haven't fought too many Sonics against Kirby to even have true MU experience, but maybe try spacing out your Forward Air & Back Air sweetspots or float a little higher and fast fall Down Air. Perhaps your Neutral Air right as Sonic breaks into an aerial.

Forward air is the best option out of those other ones, but that's not saying much. Landing a back air is basically asking to get hit due to Kirby's embarrassing range and might trade if landed. The down aerial is another risky counter to the Spin-shenanigans. It may seem a bit viable once you predict their movement, but I wouldn't consider it. I used to try neutral air, but it never worked for me. I can interrupt Sonic's Spin Charge and Spin Dash, but it's hard in general since he likes to play mindgames and go up and down and all around.

 

[Sp1nda]

Alright, here is my opinion on Sonic. The best Smash 4/Brawl player in my area (Ohio) is a Sonic main, and to be honest, Sonic is a pretty bad matchup for Kirby.
I'm not an expert so please correct me if I'm just spewing BS.
(Due to my lack of knowledge with customs, I won't be including them, sorry! Though I DO feel that Upper Cutter would help kill Sonic off the top.)

Pros:
-Sonic's spindash is easy to clank with.
-Sonic's spindash into an option is easy to shield against
-You can combo Sonic fairly well, just be wary of his options.
-If Sonic is offstage, he is easy to gimp due to his mediocre recovery.

Cons:
-Sonic is fast. (Duh.) That's our main enemy, since a good Sonic player will be running around all over the place, waiting to get in and punish you, then get back out, rinse and repeat.
-We're light, so we're easy to combo and get killed by Sonic's Up-Air, his B-air, F-air, and even his D-air.
-His jab can cancel out a couple of our options to get in and get a good combo on him
-He out plays us in aerials

Copy Ability:
Homing Attack isn't half bad of a move to do some damage against Sonic. It has kill potential at high percents, so I would recommend trying to get it since it can allow more approaches to tack on percent. If you're good at Kirbiciding however, stick with your normal inhale since Sonic doesn't do great against Kirby offstage.

Stages:
Don't. Go. To. Delfino. I can't stress this enough. Don't go to Castle Siege either
Don't go to stages with low ceilings, or blastzones close to the sides because Sonic's Up-air will destroy you, and his back throw and B-air/F-air will also cause utter evisceration. You're gonna want to stick with stages such as Smashville, Town and City, Battlefield, and sometimes Final Destination.
FD is where Kirby might be more neutral, since Sonic can't weave in and out of platforms to attack you, but it will be harder to combo Sonic since platforms are one of Kirby's best friends in his combo game, and Sonic is a generally campy character.

Additional Notes:
Really, you have to play patiently and defensively in this matchup. Sonic is too fast, and out plays us too much in the aerial game. He has many more KO moves, and beats Kirby overall. You are going to want to stay about mid range from Sonic, since he can get an easy jab to grab (or something else) into a combo up close, and far away he can easily run in, spindash in, etc. to close the gap inbetween you. Plus, far away Kirby can't do anything but try to use the projectile from the Final Cutter. Good spacing with B-air and F-air will be your friend in this MU, since you want to poke and get out before Sonic can start something up on you. You can try to get a combo in on Sonic if you see an opportunity, but be aware of his N-air/F-air, which can get him out of these combos.
You'll want go for D-throws a lot in this MU since it gets a nice amount of percent up every time. At higher percents, you can go for a B-throw or F-throw to get him offstage, (At even higher percents, Up-throw to kill) and kill him with a B-air/F-air. Sonic offstage, due to his predictability and okay recovery, is one of the parts in this MU that Kirby excels in.

Overall Score
This matchup isn't impossible, but it's going to be an uphill battle with Sonic's kill potential and speed. Kirby is a tough muffin in his offstage game, so my analysis on this matchup is 40:60 in Sonic's favor.

 

[Sp1nda]

Since I'm the only one who hasn't really played with customs and has never used them in tournaments, I'll give my opinion on Kirby with no against Captain Falcon.
I have played many Falcons online, and I have a friend who isn't half bad at Falcon that I used to play against all the time.

Pros:
-Falcon is a fat (heavy) fastfaller, which means Kirby can get some nasty combos in.
-He has a less than okay recovery, making him easy to gimp
-Crouching underneath a lot of his options
Cons:
-Those muscles are there for a reason. WAY more powerful than Kirby.
-In addition, Kirby is just a marshmallow in his weight, so dying comes earlier in percents.
-Much faster than Kirby in the air/grounded.

Copy Ability:
This might sound crazy, but I would say go for it. I love styling on my opponents, and if you read an airdodge it's a viable move to use, and packs some great kill potential.
If you want to play it safe, stay with your normal inhale to get Falcon offstage and gimp him.

Stages:
I would say avoid Delfino, Halberd, and Castle Siege. Since Falcon's U-Air is one of his best moves even after the nerf, that makes Halberd and other low ceiling stages questionable. The walls also give him a better time when attempting to get back on stage.
Delfino and Castle are self explanatory, getting caught in Falcon's raw power and knockback will kill you even faster in this matchup, and a good F-throw or B-throw will make you gone af.

Additional Notes:
Getting combos in on Falcon may be a little difficult, since a competent Falcon will try to catch you in the air with an aerial to combo YOU instead. I would say approaching with N-air is safer, but try to bait out an attack from Falcon if he does try to catch you, THEN go in for a D-air, U-tilt/Jab combo.
If and when Falcon tries to jump out of your combo, stay on the ground to catch him again with something else, or do a short hop aerial to sneak in another combo.
Since you can crouch under two of Falcon's main combo starters, his grab/dash attack, Falcon will probably try to approach with a N-air, or another aerial. Because Falcon's combo game is amazing, you may find yourself in an U-Air string. Jumping up up and away could be one option, but as the guy above me who also analyzed this MU said, the going to the ledge is probably the best option, since you don't risk getting KO'ed off the top if Falcon reads where you're jumping.

Overall Score:
This MU is all about getting combos for both characters, and there are several difficulties on each side. Falcon has more kill power, but is also more gimpable and has less options due to Kirby's crouch. Kirby has great combos that eat Falcon, but a few slip ups can be curtains for Kirby. Without customs, this matchup is an even 50:50

 

[SapphSabre777]

Thanks for the discussion, guys! Everything is going according to plan here, and we are moving along here (which is great!).

Just remember, if you can provide it, please let loose some replays or video evidence of concepts of the MU or the MU itself, as it can explain other things that might be difficult to describe.

Anyways, I'm thinking about, if activity continues, that I'll end the "week" at 7/29. A good 10 days should be enough, I feel. Feel free to object, if you need to say something. ^^

 

[RedNova]

Captain Falcon
Well, my teammate uses Falcon, so I have some experience.

Pros
-Falcon is a fast faller, so you can chain multiple u-tilts to rack up damage
-You can duck under a lot of Cap's moves
-With his predictable recovery, you can gimp him easily, but watch out for his aerials
Cons
-He has powerful moves, and with Kirby's lightweight, he can be dead at 70%
-His aerials are really fast, so you need to watch out
-He's wicked fast, and Kirby can't really keep up with him
Copy Ability
Falcon Punch is like the ultimate styling move, so get it if that's your coup of tea. Otherwise, keep Inhale for possible gimp

Custom Moves
-Upper Cutter should be staple as of right now
-Also Hammer Bash
-Jumping Inhale is really good for gimping, but because of the nature of Cap's recovery, Ice Breath becames viable in this match-up, excellent for edge guarding
-As always, the stone pick is preference. I always prefer Meteor Stone for the spectacular 10% spikes, bt the other two are also good
Stage Picks
As always, avoid low ceilings. You can try picking Lylat if you're using meteor stone, because it actually hits under the stage.

Additional Notes
You need to always consider the spacing when fighting Falcon. By using down tilts and crouching his dash grab attempts, the neutral becomes a lot easier. Also, be sure to mixup your recovery, so you don't become predictable.

Overall Score
I'd give this a 50:50 because both have a lot of tools to keep each other at the edge. Kirby with his combo potential and Falcon with his amazing aerials. With customs on, I would say it becomes 60:40.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I just realized the day that this week will end is the day the Windows 10 upgrade pops up for me. How quaint. ^^

Anyways, @ Paxadin , do you think you could be able to construct an analysis similar to @ Sp1nda , @ Togii , and @ RedNova ? It would help us know what to look out for. (Pros, Cons, Custom Moves, Stages, Additional Notes, and the like) Don't stress it too much. Knowing Micro$oft, the upgrade for me should take hours on Wednesday. That and my Internet sucks at home.

 

[Paxadin]

I just realized the day that this week will end is the day the Windows 10 upgrade pops up for me. How quaint. ^^

Anyways, @ Paxadin , do you think you could be able to construct an analysis similar to @ Sp1nda , @ Togii , and @ RedNova ? It would help us know what to look out for. (Pros, Cons, Custom Moves, Stages, Additional Notes, and the like) Don't stress it too much. Knowing Micro$oft, the upgrade for me should take hours on Wednesday. That and my Internet sucks at home.

I don't have as much insight as I'd like on the match up, which is why i voiced my opinion, but didn't give a big argument about it, nor give a score.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hi, guys! Sorry for the hold up. Thanks to technical difficulties, I'm going delay the end of the "week" by one day. I'll make sure that this will be addressed tomorrow. Till then, have fun with free discussion. My treat. ^^

 

[EMPEROR Eevee]

Captain Falcon
Well, my teammate uses Falcon, so I have some experience.

Pros
-Falcon is a fast faller, so you can chain multiple u-tilts to rack up damage
-You can duck under a lot of Cap's moves
-With his predictable recovery, you can gimp him easily, but watch out for his aerials
Cons
-He has powerful moves, and with Kirby's lightweight, he can be dead at 70%
-His aerials are really fast, so you need to watch out
-He's wicked fast, and Kirby can't really keep up with him
Copy Ability
Falcon Punch is like the ultimate styling move, so get it if that's your coup of tea. Otherwise, keep Inhale for possible gimp

Custom Moves
-Upper Cutter should be staple as of right now
-Also Hammer Bash
-Jumping Inhale is really good for gimping, but because of the nature of Cap's recovery, Ice Breath becames viable in this match-up, excellent for edge guarding
-As always, the stone pick is preference. I always prefer Meteor Stone for the spectacular 10% spikes, bt the other two are also good
Stage Picks
As always, avoid low ceilings. You can try picking Lylat if you're using meteor stone, because it actually hits under the stage.

Additional Notes
You need to always consider the spacing when fighting Falcon. By using down tilts and crouching his dash grab attempts, the neutral becomes a lot easier. Also, be sure to mixup your recovery, so you don't become predictable.

Overall Score
I'd give this a 50:50 because both have a lot of tools to keep each other at the edge. Kirby with his combo potential and Falcon with his amazing aerials. With customs on, I would say it becomes 60:40.

I agree with this. Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Nice write-up @ RedNova

 

[Sp1nda]

Free discussion huh?
Well, how about the new patch coming out soon? Think Kirby will get nerfed?
If not, who do you guys think WILL get nerfed?
My bet is Greninja probably Yoshi or RosaLuma

 

[Altair357]

Incoming up throw buff pretty please Sakurai

If they do change the character balance, I can't see Sheik not being nerfed. Which could be a good or a bad thing for us, since Luigi and Sonic exist. Then again, they could get nerfed too. Yoshi probably won't get touched, though.

 

[Sp1nda]

Incoming up throw buff pretty please Sakurai

If they do change the character balance, I can't see Sheik not being nerfed. Which could be a good or a bad thing for us, since Luigi and Sonic exist. Then again, they could get nerfed too. Yoshi probably won't get touched, though.

Sheik is the pretty obvious nerf choice, I just hope it won't be as harsh as the Diddy nerf. (Even though Diddy is still really good)
I want Yoshi to be nerfed because he just ha,s these stupidly good moves, and hits that are left out for SOOOO long. Also it's Kirby's worst MU so that's the main reason I want him nerfed LMAO

Also,completely unrelated, I feel like the only one who doesn't have a Kirby profile picture in this thread, minority boyssss

 

[RedNova]

I agree with this. Pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. Nice write-up @ RedNova

Thanks! I'll try to post more often, but I need to find more training partneners

 

[Altair357]

Also,completely unrelated, I feel like the only one who doesn't have a Kirby profile picture in this thread, minority boyssss

What is your justification for not having a Kirby profile picture?!

 

[Sp1nda]

What is your justification for not having a Kirby profile picture?!

Tyler the Creator looks at all of my posts, with a look in his eyes ever so graceful. Nobody is knowing of what he thinks of my posts, but he looks onward to read what comes in the distance.
Maybe... He is even reading into the future?
THE ODD FUTURE
(if you don't get it look up Odd Future)

 

[SapphSabre777]

Since there is a possible patch and what not tomorrow, I'm going to wait a few more days until we go to the next discussion, thanks to the possibility of balance changes that could affect how we perceive possible match-ups. This week is over, and free discussion will continue until further noticed, just to be safe with this.

Although, I don't think any of you would mind some free discussion, from the looks of it.

EDIT: Ended up putting in the scores for the week:
[40:60/40:60*]
[50:50/60:40]

No one reviewed in the Custom Sonic matchup, so I just put in the 40:60 for that as well, just as a placeholder.
The Custom Capt. Falcon matchup went 60:40 thanks to a widespread agreement on this, as well as the implication that some would have voted in the same way, such as @ EMPEROR Eevee . If you have any questions, just let me know. Until then, enjoy freedom!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I don't have a Kirby profile pic. :o

 

[Togii]

@ Mazdamaxsti I'm pretty sure your profile pic is Kirby from the inside.

Anyway, for tomorrow's patch, here's what I think will get changed. I think Sheik will get a massive nerf, similar to what Diddy received. I think Luigi MIGHT get his down throw changed (similar to what happened to Diddy's) but maybe not since Luigi is doing a good job of staying under the radar. Wii Fit might get buffed due to the Nintendo World Champion using her at Evo.

What I want to get changed: tone down Sheik and Luigi's aerial frame data, balance Explosive Baloon Trip, Counter Sapling, and Heavy Skull Bash, buff Final Cutter to let it grab the edge on the way up, and assorted buffs for low tier characters like Wii Fit, Zelda, and Mewtwo.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

@ Mazdamaxsti I'm pretty sure your profile pic is Kirby from the inside.

Anyway, for tomorrow's patch, here's what I think will get changed. I think Sheik will get a massive nerf, similar to what Diddy received. I think Luigi MIGHT get his down throw changed (similar to what happened to Diddy's) but maybe not since Luigi is doing a good job of staying under the radar. Wii Fit might get buffed due to the Nintendo World Champion using her at Evo.

What I want to get changed: tone down Sheik and Luigi's aerial frame data, balance Explosive Baloon Trip, Counter Sapling, and Heavy Skull Bash, buff Final Cutter to let it grab the edge on the way up, and assorted buffs for low tier characters like Wii Fit, Zelda, and Mewtwo.

Kirbys gonna stay unchanged, MK might get needed cuz mr. R getting killed at 50% by an up-b. My thoughts.

 

[Burgundy]

I'm not Kirby either! But I don't really count since I literally never post here or in the social.
I'm sorry I'm such a lurker Kirby mains :v

Also as always, pray for low tier buffs and top tier nerfs.

 

[EMPEROR Eevee]

Thanks! I'll try to post more often, but I need to find more training partneners

Add me bro.

NNID = Senpai-Eevee
Skype = Kirikou_Rung

 

[Sp1nda]

Yo guys this is really important for Kirby!
Kirby got a BUFF!
And now he's an absolute monster!
Forward throw combos into almost any move, Fthrow Uair combos into almost every character!
Inhale is a few frames faster!
Kirby's jab is now more viable/has more knock back
**YOSHI CAN NO LONGER NAIR OUT OF OUR JAB
I'm still looking around and stuff, but Kirby might be a little more viable than he already is!
I'm gonna test some more stuff out, PEACE!! KIRBY BUFF HYPE

 

[Shadow Keebey]

Is there an exact value on the faster Inhale frames (how much faster)? Either way Kirby Birthday hype . Where is the cake? We need to prepare.

 

[Pasty]

Freedom? I've been following the thread and was really hoping Link would be up for discussion this week.

 

[RedNova]

Add me bro.

NNID = Senpai-Eevee
Skype = Kirikou_Rung

Already added you. I haven't isntalled skype yet, but I'll add you there too. Just for the record, I have terrible internet...

 

[SapphSabre777]

I think we should wait a few more days before delving in to another discussion. This patch was huge, much more than I expected...and with Kirby getting heavily buffed, imo, I think we need to hit the lab for a couple of days as well as let the rest of the buffs and nerfs be revealed to us. I really don't want to start another discussion on a newly buffed/nerfed character.

So for now, I think a some more free discussion is at hand. Enjoy Sakurai's blessing, boys and girls!

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, everybody! It's been 3 days since we've looked at our new and improved Kirby. I think it is high-time to start another poll later today! During my trip away, drop by who should be in the Strawpoll when I come back, and drop as many names as you want. I'll look at them, maybe give a little bit of time for those who are late, then make a Strawpoll. Thanks once again!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Pacman
DHD(they are gonna start the Kirby discussion very soon)
Pikachu again?
Game and Watch

Just some in mind.

 

[WispBae]

Hey there puffballs! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU and would love your input!

Click this picture of one of the most underrated games ever to go straight to the thread!

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hey there puffballs! The Doggy boards are discussing this MU and would love your input!

Click this picture of one of the most underrated games ever to go straight to the thread!

Well, that's convenient! Let's do the MU on one end, and we can vote for another character, between Pac Man and Game and Watch above. Here is the link. Have fun!