The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[Wintermelon43]

At first I thought 60:40, but then I realized that my analysis didn't correlate with that ratio so I raised it.
60:40 is probably closer though, yet I haven't fought many kirbys that have given me trouble.

Yeah, but think about Kirby VS. Yoshi. It's really badddd.......... So HOW could VS. Pac-Man be that bad?

 

[Nu~]

What about custom Kirby? Jumping inhale is a really good approach considering the big leap, and it goes like half of the stage, I wish I had more knowledge on PAC, because I'd imagine similar to most Zoners, once we get in, we do a lot of damage, but thats if we can get in.

If we did get your ability, its not one of the simple specials cause. We need to know when to use each fruit.
Out of curiosity, do you use All fruits or just certain ones because I wonder if they all have use.

The charm of bonus fruit is that they all have unique and important uses.

Cherry is fast and keeps the opponent away with its spamability. If you get on in the hand you can set up combos and kill confirms.

Strawberry covers more space depending on the height at which you throw it at. It also covers SH approaches. Like the cherry, it's dangerous when you have it in the hand as an item.

Orange is a fun gimping tool with great horizontal knock back. It's also fairly fast and eats up other projectiles like needles and even mega man's Fsmash (all fruits can do this actually). Helps Pac-Man keep his space when the opponent approaches horizontally.

Apple kills vertically and helps us abuse blind spots since it comes on diagonally.

Melon can be ran in front of to punish any attempts of the opponent punishing our approach. You can also catch it easily and use it to block the ledge, launch hydrants, and a lot of other fun stuff. Much better in the hand than charged because of its slowness.

Galaxian starts kill combos and really big damage. Covers a large area when thrown and usually hits twice when thrown. Low priority and can be beat out by many things, but big reward when landed.

Bells start early kills, combos, and cover aerial approaches. It can raven travel through the stage when thrown into the side of it.

Key kills and beats nearly every projectiles. When Z dropped, stupid high damage can be dealt and it an launch hydrants in one hit.

The key to mastering the fruit is to be creative in their uses.

Jumping inhale isn't a very great approach against Pac-Man because it won't protect you from a flying hydrant and it will get you punished if you swallow a fruit. We can also duck behind a stationary hydrant and wait until you are above us so we can smack you with Inky.

Yeah, but think about Kirby VS. Yoshi. It's really badddd.......... So HOW could VS. Pac-Man be that bad?

Think about it. Pacman has the better zoning tools and frame data in exchange for less range and less mobility.
We have more reliable kill setups than yoshi too while yoshi deals more damage per hit (but fruit combos ignore that)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'm not going to comment on the MU itself because I think MU threads, especially this one, are dumb, but Pac-Man is probably my most experienced MU and customs on it definitely isn't 65:35 lol

also, I think Pac-Man has the potential to counter custom Kirby, but he doesn't counter him (at least, not yet). like, in a couple years, once he's fully developed because he's one of the only characters in Smash 4 with depth.

does Pac-Man have similar frame data to Kirby tho? Kirby has some of the best frame data in the game, isn't Pac-Man just average?

 

[Nu~]

I'm not going to comment on the MU itself because I think MU threads, especially this one, are dumb, but Pac-Man is probably my most experienced MU and customs on it definitely isn't 65:35 lol

also, I think Pac-Man has the potential to counter custom Kirby, but he doesn't counter him (at least, not yet). like, in a couple years, once he's fully developed because he's one of the only characters in Smash 4 with depth.

does Pac-Man have similar frame data to Kirby tho? Kirby has some of the best frame data in the game, isn't Pac-Man just average?

Yeahhh...Probably overrated the current ratio lol.
As for frame data, Pacman doesn't have a single normal that starts up past frame 9. His smashes on the other hand are pretty slow (except for his frame 13 inky)

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The re-discussion is at the Rosa Boards. When we do re-discussions ourselves, we can use those posts for our evaluation. Go to @ Mario & Sonic Guy 's post for the link to the discussion. What we post there can help us.

I should probably point out that unlike with the last time Rosalina analyzed Kirby, the round 2 discussion does not have any time limit; it'll be open, even after Rosalina is no longer focusing on her match-up against Kirby.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Yeahhh...Probably overrated the current ratio lol.
As for frame data, Pacman doesn't have a single normal that starts up past frame 9. His smashes on the other hand are pretty slow (except for his frame 13 inky)

Wait I thought your fastest smash came out on frame 14 or something....does hitting with different ghosts matter?

 

[Nu~]

Wait I thought your fastest smash came out on frame 14 or something....does hitting with different ghosts matter?

Inky (usmash)has two hitboxes with the first one coming out on frame 13. His other smashes come out on frame 18

 

[Neutricity]

Having access to our Fruits is something you'd want. The more understanding you have for the Bonus Fruit then the easier the match-up can be for you. Also, the recent patch has helped you out so the match-up gets a tad easier. This match-up is not free for us

 

[SapphSabre777]

No, I mean, are you accepting new votes for the matchup

Nope, no new votes for the matchup. HOWEVER, next week after this one, there will be the chance to vote and re-discuss two characters we have talked about in the past, seeing a lot of people are coming to me worried about how ratios are inaccurate or forgetting to list some things, Rosalina & Luma included. I'll think more into it when my little brother is moved in to college, and let you guys know how this will all go down.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Double-post, yes...but I'll now say this: Jigglypuff and Ryu are the Week 9 representatives. Discuss!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ryu is too weird for me to talk about.

Jiggs
Pros
We outrange her(oh yea, I said it and its true)
We kill easier
Our grab and throw Game is much better
Our Intangible Usmash and Utilt beat her arielsariels

Cons
She can hit us out of final cutter somewhat easily
Has far superior airspeed, making it difficult to catch her in the air
Not easy to combo
Somewhat difficult(but still possible) to edge guardguard

Copy ability
It's plain awful,don't bother trying to get it.

Customs
Upper cutter is helpful. I think either giant or hammer bash is good. I think Ice breath may be better then then JI mainly cause she has garbage range and her copy ability is near useless.

Others
Not sure what stage would be best to choose, ones with platforms could help with killing with U throw even earlier...
It's best not to stay in one spot, because she can weave in and out with her fantastic air speed and Ariel's.
Some of our normally not good killing moves can kill her(Uair Fair Throws)
Our Utilt has good enough range, speed and intangibility to beat her ariels and our Usmash is the same.
We rack up damage even if she isn't easy to combo, better then she can.
Her ariels are faster besides her bair, but some like her Dair and sometimes Uair aren't so good against us.
Her Nair is enough to easily beat final cutter when recovering, but when she tries to edge guard us it won't be too simple, because we can kinda, but not too well, fight back. Doesn't help much that she has no spike.
Pound doesn't seem to be too bad of a move against us....I mean its seriously long lasting hitboxes could really catch you off guard and force you not to shield.
Typing on this tablet is too annoying so I'm just going to give the ratio..
Without customs 55:45 though a 60:40 is possible.
With customs 60:40 for sure. Maybe even a tad chance for 65:35

 

[HoodedAltair]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XcYFy2wyw4

Here's a awesome tourney set between me and kirbyfan66. You can see how we go back and forth. Niether character has a definitive edge over the other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MPyRpzoxA

Here's a best of 5 friendly set with MyQuestForPower where I actually talk about the matchup in great length. I won't make a write up about it for risk of unnecessarily repeating myself

 

[Dessa]

Mind that kirby can duck ALL of Ryu's specials in every form, his grab, his dash attack, half of his tilts, his jabs, and half of his smash attacks (since he has 6 tilts/6 smashes).

I don't know how this matchup goes in practice, but keep this in mind for aby theorycrafting. Ryu can't rush kirby down from the ground at all, and instead has to rely on aerial approaches, or dmashes/dtilts and well spaced (strong) ftilts. Usmash hits too, but only close-up

 

[HoodedAltair]

Mind that kirby can duck ALL of Ryu's specials in every form, his grab, his dash attack, half of his tilts, his jabs, and half of his smash attacks (since he has 6 tilts/6 smashes).

I don't know how this matchup goes in practice, but keep this in mind for aby theorycrafting. Ryu can't rush kirby down from the ground at all, and instead has to rely on aerial approaches, or dmashes and well spaced (strong) ftilts.

Ehhh it's certainly a good option but also bear in mind that kirby can not move while crouching and he has no projectiles. He's pretty much a sitting duck and the opponent does not have to approach if they don't want to.....that is unless kirby gets Ryu's hadouken power which though a bad projectile and can be jumped over for a punish, is decent for controlling space.

The thing is since kirby can't move while crouched, the Ryu can walk up and dtilt which reaches farther that kirbys, He can also approach from the air with nair to dtilt which leave a short window to shield grab, he can aim a Fair or Dair on sheild both of which have good shield pushback and tiny windows to punish if misspaced. He can also cross up shield with sour spot fair or even tomahawk grab if its expected that the kirby anticipates an aerial. It's a mixup if anything. I do think it is something to note but doesn't shift the MU drastically. Though it does make a Ryu think twice before throwing a hadouken out at mid range or closer

 

[Dessa]

Doesn't kirby's hadouken go under Ryu's? If so, a swallow would give Kirby the advantage in the neutral and force Ryu to approach.

As for how to get that inhale, how does its range compare to Ryu's dtilt? Can kirby inhale against a Ryu playing footsie?

My question regarding Ryu's air approach would be whether he can beat Kirby's utilt. Even from a duck, utilt comes out fast, and pivot utilt is harder to pull off, but no slower.

The technical difficulty of these maneuvers certainly plays a big part in casual matchups, but competetive Kirbys should have the dexterity to pull off tight timings and clean inputs.

 

[PapaJ]

Honestly in this match up it all comes down to damage, spacing, KO moves and Recovery.

Kirby can combo the hell out of characters with his amazing aerials and his Utilt and Down tilt. However these combos usually do about 20% damage. Like Hooded said in his video Ryus moves all do incredible damage, or if they don't they combo into something that does. Basically it comes down to Ryu needs to punish mistakes Kirby does but when we do our punishes can do as much as a full combo from Kirby. So almost anytime Kirby makes a mistake a good ryu will punish with an attack or combo that should do 15-25% damage.

Next is spacing. The only thing Ryu has that is safe on shield is Jab 1. Anything else can be punished even more so due to Kirbys small stature. IF we Fsmash you can duck and Dtilt or duck and Fsmash during the recovery. This means that Ryu needs to be careful on what he throws out. He cannot be obvious otherwise we will be combo-ed or we will eat a smash. Ryu does have a 5 Frame Dsmash that does around 16 damage and weak and strong Dtilt can lead into Tatsu or T.SRK depending on distance. I am not sure what Moves kirby has that are safe but I am assuming that he has more moves that are safe then Ryu meaning you can poke around and we need to be respect that allowing you to try and break neutral. On top of that you can space with aerials better then us due to your better air traction and multiple jumps where as we are very committed to what we do and can't really fade in and out to try and trick you. So due to your moves being safer and a better aerial game this naturally allows you to combo better keeping Ryu in check and racking up the damage.

Now we have the KO moves. Naturally because Kirby is lighter that allows us to KO you at earlier percents however our best KO moves are Bair, Fsmash, and T.SRK. The issues with these KO moves is that Kirby has better aerial mobility allowing you guys to trick us or just get away in general and Fsmash can whiff. T.SRK is commonly combo-ed from the Weak Utilt and Dtilt and only done raw when we are doing a hard read. Strong jab can KO near the ledges at around 100% for Kirby and it comes out on frame 9. While we can spike with Dair but thats only when it spikes. You guys seem to have Dair, Fsmash, Usmash, Bair. and I think Fair?. The difference is you can use your small size to duck under our attacks and punish and combo more reliably due to Kirby having safer moves to poke with and greater rewards for landing combo starters.

Finally we have Recovery. Because Ryu's Tatsu puts him on a horizontal path you can intercept us with Dair and if it doesn't spike us it will gimp us, depending on the distance. Kirby can try to Bair or Fair Ryu and go back to the ledge to retry and hit him out of the air. Essentially you can keep harassing us with the reward being a gimp, Ko, or at the least extra damage. However due to Kirbys amazing recovery we might be able to try something once and then have to go back to the ledge as you can recovery high, mid, low, wait to go to the ledge and go to the ledge immediately. We also have to be mindful of your down b and try not to chase you to hard or leave ourselves open.

Ultimately it comes down to this. Ryu has the advantage on the stage whereas Kirby has the advantage offstage. If you are around 60% you can be KO'd by a T.SRK and at 80~ Bair and Fsmash should be able to kill, depending on the stage and the position of Kirby. Due to us being heavy you're probably not getting a KO move till around 100% but you can gimp us due to your multihit moves breaking Focus attack. Honestly Kirby should be aiming to get Ryu offstage and attempt Gimps unless the Ryu screws up and you can land A KOing hit. As long as Kirby is careful with Ryu it makes landing our moves a pain in general.

Due to how early we can KO Kirby and the ability for us to get gimped in certain situations I'd say this MU is 50/50. It's not hopeless nor is it cake it will simply come down to who is better at playing there characters.

Note: Im writing this while tired so if something doesn't seem right or there is some clarification required let me know and Ill fix it when I can.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If any kirbys want to play and they are on the east coast or mid west of the east coast plz let me know.

 

[NimbusSpark]

A little thing that must be noted though is if Kirby does in fact inhale Pac-Man and get his copy ability - Kirby, compared to Pac-Man, lacks the horizontal mobility to abuse Z-dropping as effectively. Also, a smart Pac against a lesser experienced Kirby would most likely bait the weaker fruits (from Cherry to Melon) into his hydrant just to easily Back Air it back at Kirby.

Yeahhh...Probably overrated the current ratio lol.
As for frame data, Pacman doesn't have a single normal that starts up past frame 9. His smashes on the other hand are pretty slow (except for his frame 13 inky)

And yes, in terms of Frame Data, Pac-Man is rather polarized. At one side, his tilts and aerials are extremely fast (his aerials being equal second with Meta Knight and Ryu on being the fastest in the game, getting beaten by Shiek and Luigi), but on the other side of the spectrum, the speed of his grabs and smashes are rather poor.
And as a few notes -
All of Kirby's ground moves (Titls, Grabs, Smashes) in general are faster compared to Pac-Mans.
Kirby's Frame Data is actually overall faster than Pac's.
Pac-Man has larger range in general, and faster aerials.
If Dash Attack was not considered a normal move, then yes, @ Nu~ is correct about him not having a single normal attack that stars up past Frame 9, as Dash Attack starts at Frame 10, but has ridiculously low endlag, making it harder to punish on the final hit.

 

[Jiggly]

With the Kirby-Puff MU, I think Puff has the advantage. This battle from my experience takes place mostly in the air, where puff rocks the scene. Puff has more priority, and better air speed. Kirby relies on low percent combos and strings, which puff does really we'll against. Fthrow is useless against puff once we hit 15% (using Vectoring of course). Fair strings don't work with vectoring due to our low weight and incredible air speed. Kirby does out range, but we can challenge his aerials with ours, and beat all of his options with our amazing frame 5 DA. Did I mention it's an amazing kill move? If you're kirby at high percent getting jabbed, vector and Di up and away to try to avoid it. Jab-Jab-DA is a true combo no DI. Most smart puffs will only do one jab so you can DI, but if they jab more than once, DI away and jump. But we can beat kirby with his approach options, and Jigglypuff owns neutral. Dair with kirby doesn't work well against puff, because puff always tries to stay 45 degrees above kirby. And if kirby does get it, it's hard to capitalize. If you are a kirby, do your best to not let it go to neutral, as you are then out at a huge disadvantage. Puff forces you to play her game, but kirby can do some great things. PP Utilt is amazing vs puff, as it is a decent anti air. Usmash is an amazing anti air vs us, but of course be careful or you can get punished.

Also, don't ever dash Attack puff. If puff shields =free rest. Same thing with a shielded dair. Be very careful, and make sure not to get spaced out or neutral locked. I believe this MU is 45:55 for kirby due to some issues. I can write more if needed

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I'm hoping more notable jiggs, if there are any, will give some slight knowledge.
@TheReflexWonder I know you may not use Jiggs, but any slight knowledge would be nice
@ Desu~ do you have any knowledge as well? Just 1 more could help even if its not much.
More ratios would be nice.

 

[Jiggly]

Also, just a reminder, don't ever try to stone onstage against a puff lol. Puff will sit and wait by the stone, and Sh rest when you pop out of stone. It's something that I see Kirby's fall for sometimes, and just wanted to point that out.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Also, just a reminder, don't ever try to stone onstage against a puff lol. Puff will sit and wait by the stone, and Sh rest when you pop out of stone. It's something that I see Kirby's fall for sometimes, and just wanted to point that out.

Is your perspective online? I'm positive no good Kirby player would do something like that.

 

[Aquamentii]

I'm a bit more in the middle... I say JiggsXKirby is even, maybe a 55:45 in favor of Jiggs depending on how edge guarding goes. Kirby's Utlit/Usmash and other anti-airs are good, but I don't think that they totally beat out Jigg's spacing tools, which are definitely better then Kirby's spacing tools. His smashes are just fast enough to where I'm unsure how often you will be able to punish with rest unless perfect shielded/spotdodged... DownB and SideB of course are easy rest punishes at any time... Kirby's UpB could be beaten with Nair or at least traded with, a rest could probably punish any upB landings that are onstage... As for grab combos, we can escape those pretty easily past very low %'s, but his grab/throws are much better.

Any low ceilings or platforms would help Kirby because of up throw kills, whereas we don't kill off a throw until like 200% or more. Best to ban FD and counter pick to BF or Halberd.

Edge guarding basically goes like this: if either character can stay above their opponent when recovering, they won't be edgeguarded. Both characters cover horizontal distance well(more so Jiggs) however they are slower in vertical rise, so if you are out of range of Kirby/Jiggs vertically you can avoid most moves and land onstage(Jigg's also falls very slowly, Kirby can fall a little faster so once he passes over her in the air fastfall->airdodges through her range is probably best). If either is recovering low, it becomes difficult because Dair against Jiggs is very good(same with Bair as well) but we can interrupt your upB and take your jumps with Fair,Bair,Nair, etc.

Overall, Kirby has a better ground game but that's just it: Jiggs doesn't stay grounded. She has a slightly better time in neutral, but Kirby has easier times killing and racking % through combos.
Edge guarding is either even or totally nonexistent. Maybe in Jigg's favor, which is why I say the MU is maybe in her favor.

 

[Desu~]

From what I've saw against a Kirby, it's pretty obvious to see that Kirby has far better tilts and killpower than what Jiggs has.
But, as an occuring theme, one great difference seems to make the two of them different (in my opinion, pretty sure I could be wrong there) : Jigglypuff is definitively a stationnary bait & punisher whereas Kirby, with all of his kill potential, opts for a more aggressive style of play.

I don't fully grasp the MU because Im not exactly sure as to what Kirby is capable of against someone that is (almost) exactly the same weight, but it is certain that Jigglypuff needs to keep away from Kirby's smashes as it puts her to a bad situation/death.

My MU is entirely based on weight so it would be 50:50.
That means that if entirely careful while racking up damage, a well placed utilt could potentially kill Kirby around 120% or more if fresh. Or a well placed bair at high damage works fine too.

Another thing is that Kirby can also wall Puff well in the air using bair, and he's not afraid of going out of the stage (cuz 6 jumps too). So if we happen to get caught by a dair, it's not gonna be pretty.

Kirby seems to be an underrated character, because I feel that if there's more development going on in Kirby's meta, I feel like his game would be more footsies-based.

Or Im probably just salty that a well spaced dtilt into tripping motion gives Kirby so much options.

 

[Jiggly]

Is your perspective online? I'm positive no good Kirby player would do something like that.

some people try it for broken shields or finished combos and stuff, not a good option. I'm just saying in this MU a bad option is worse

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Ehhh it's certainly a good option but also bear in mind that kirby can not move while crouching and he has no projectiles. He's pretty much a sitting duck and the opponent does not have to approach if they don't want to.....that is unless kirby gets Ryu's hadouken power which though a bad projectile and can be jumped over for a punish, is decent for controlling space.

The thing is since kirby can't move while crouched, the Ryu can walk up and dtilt which reaches farther that kirbys, He can also approach from the air with nair to dtilt which leave a short window to shield grab, he can aim a Fair or Dair on sheild both of which have good shield pushback and tiny windows to punish if misspaced. He can also cross up shield with sour spot fair or even tomahawk grab if its expected that the kirby anticipates an aerial. It's a mixup if anything. I do think it is something to note but doesn't shift the MU drastically. Though it does make a Ryu think twice before throwing a hadouken out at mid range or closer

hi I don't like MU ratios and I think anybody who tries to decipher Ryu's MU ratios or w/e this early in his release has no idea what they're doing so I'm just here to clear stuff up~

Anybody who's using Kirby's crouch and just sitting in it has no idea how to use it properly. Kirby's crouch is f1, he becomes the shortest character in the game, he keeps all of his options as if he was in idle and can use any of them instantly, his D-Tilt retains his low stature unlike G&W and Jigglypuff, and he can use perfect pivot crouch and D-Tilt to move around while crouching with only one frame that he's actually up during the transition. I guess Kirby's crouch can be re-written as "Kirby's shield that he can instantly act out of with anything and never breaks"... or something, iunno. It's specifically used to dodge anticipated attacks as it allows Kirby to punish with mostly anything he wants. It's also good for things like projectiles as you're avoiding shield stun/damage and the potential to be dash grabbed. Also, ducking under Ryu's Hadouken is a (slightly) meh option when other things exist.

Kirby's Jab clashes the first two variants of Hadouken, so it's usually best to just hold jab is you don't wanna deal with them. Along with that, our Hadouken goes under Ryu's so we can just trade damage whenever he uses one if we feel like it. SH Hadouken beats clashes with all of his variations so we can use that, too. Crouching under Hadouken is mostly reserved (heeh) for the red hadouken thingy, idk what it's name is lol. If we crouch under Hadouken, it's usually best to just let it pass and buffer an action right after, but we can PP crouch into it to slide under it and then chase Ryu. also, F-Throw > Hadouken is a true combo regardless of DI for quite a while, although the damage is really minimal so U-Throw/D-Throw works just as well. also hadouken jab locks so our jab lock stuff is really nice against Ryu, especially when U-Tilt platform setups are involved

I'm just bringing it up once because they're dying but if customs are on we punish everything on shield because we have Dolphin Slash but with a much bigger hitbox yay

Ryu and Kirby can kinda destroy each other when it comes to edgeguarding? Ryu's helicopter roleplaying is really vulnerable to D-Air and the air dash super armor is beat by D-Air because multi-hit. We can D-Air/B-Air his Shoryuken but I'm assuming Ryu is always using TSRK when recovering which iirc has invincibility so it's useless to try and hit him, Kirby will probably just die. TSRK has really crappy horizontal recovery so we need to get you before you get in range. idk if Inhale beats helicopter roleplay, probably not because it's so BIG

Final Cutter has a ton of start-up and your D-Air is like, incredibly fast so if Kirby misplaces Final Cutter at all he's gonna get destroyed. Basically, both of them need to be super smart when recovering or they'll kill each other at like 2%

idk how Ryu does against lightweights for combos so I can't say anything about that but Kirby can combo Ryu really well. It's not Sheik or Fox levels of stupidness, but we can get a ton of damage with our stuff. When it comes to killing our only really good option is to edgeguard you or use PP D-Tilt/turnaround D-Tilt and hope you trip because if we whiff a smash or you shield it we're probably going to die at like 60% so... yeah. If you're at kill percents you're probably not going to be throwing out things we can duck under (so like 90% of your moveset) because if you do we'll get a free kill so you're kinda restricted?

ryu is a cool character in a couple years he'll dethrone sheik and have no challenges

edit: Kirby ducks under all of Ryu's moves except for close ranged U-Smash, D-Tilt, D-Smash, F-Air, N-Air and D-Air. If you hit us with U-Smash out of a crouch, it won't kill until like 140% without DI. D-Smash is literally never gonna kill crouching Kirby.

Inhale beats out Ryu's helicopter role-playing unless it's initiated right outside the windbox. Star Shot prevents Ryu from doing it again if he does the input version, but the regular one can be done forever. It's best used to Star Shot Ryu into the lower corner of the blast zone or just Kirbycide him while he's recovering.

 

[NimbusSpark]

In addition to what was previously said in the Kirby/Pac-Man Matchup, I tested some grab combos, and Kirby can do these agianst Pac-Man with his Bonus Fruit are -

F-Throw > Cherry - 9% Damage, can be done from approx. 0% to 50%.
F-Throw > Strawberry - 10% Damage, can be done from approx. 10% to %, requires a second jump past %.
F-Throw > Orange - 12% Damage, can be done from approx 0% to 40%.
F-Throw > Apple - 14% Damage, can be done from approx. 0% to 30%, can be done after a second jump at 40% to 65%, but is most reliable after 50%.
F-Throw > Melon - 17% Damage, can be done from approx. 0% to 50%, but is most reliable before 40%.
F-Throw > Galaxian - Either 14% or 23% Damage depending on hits, can be done from approx. 0% to 50%.
F-Throw > Bell - 13% Damage, can be done from approx. 0% to 80%, but is most reliable before 60%.
F-Throw > Key - 20% Damage, can be done from approx. 0% to 40%, can be done after a second jump at 55% to 80%. This will not kill Pac-Man at the edge of the stage, therefore is not a kill confirm.

B-Throw > Turnaround Cherry - 12% Damage, can be done from approx 5% to 20%, but is most reliable before 10%.
B-Throw > Turnaround Strawberry - 13% Damage, can be done from approx 0% to 30%, but is most reliable before 15%.
B-Throw > Turnaround Orange - 16% Damage, can be done from approx 0% to 40%, but is most reliable before 15%.
B-Throw > Turnaround Apple - 17% Damage, can be done from approx 0% to 20%.
B-Throw > Turnaround Melon - 20% Damage, can be done from approx 0% to 15% with quick reactions.
B-Throw > Turnaround Galaxian - Either 17% or 26% Damage depending on hits, can be done from approx 0% to 35%, but is most reliable before 20%
B-Throw > Turnaround Key - 23% Damage, can be done from approx 0% to 60%. At percentages as little as 55%, this combo can actually kill Pac-Man at the ledge. Can be done after a second jump at 65% to 85%.

WARNING: All of these values have been tested in Training Mode, therefore DI and Rage could be other potential factors. Not all of these combos are true!

 

[Mo433]

/ MU: I think this MU is 50/50. Kirby can combo Ryu easily, but Ryu has tons of moves that can kill Kirby at 90-100%. Offstage can go either way, since Kirby can easily gimp Ryu, but Ryu still has TSRK that will beat out his aerials.

/ MU: I believe this MU to be 60:40 in Kirby's favor. While Jigglypuff is faster in the air, she doesn't have many moves that can kill you in the air, so Jiggly will have to land on the ground to get the kill, where Kirby is vastly superior. In addition, Kirby has good Smash attacks that will kill Jigglypuff earlier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Gotta get Ryu off the stage to gimp him.

How does Kirby do that?

In neutral risk vs reward favors Ryu so much its near comical.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Gotta get Ryu off the stage to gimp him.

How does Kirby do that?

In neutral risk vs reward favors Ryu so much its near comical.

Haven't been through the MU yet myself, but that risk/reward comparison is hilariously one-sided towards Ryu (thanks based T.Shoryu and such).

Anyways, a couple of things before I actually do my analysis over the Kirby v. Jiggs MU: the Duck Hunt and Pac-Man MUs will end tomorrow, and there will be a poll on which characters to re-evaluate. I'll get to making that later, since college started for me.

Well, without further ado: my analysis on the vs MU without customs.

Pros
+ Kirby has MUCH more knockback, so easier time KOing
+ Kirby has more reward off of a grab than Jigglypuff
+ Kirby outranges Jigglypuff by a fair margin, has better ground game
+ With F-Smash and such, Kirby usually wins trades with SHing aerials from Jiggs
+ The KO confirms Kirby has work wonders thanks to Jigglypuff's hitstun animations

Cons
- Jigglypuff has much more aerial mobility and can chase Kirby down by floating there
- Jigglypuff's lightweight and floatiness allow her to be hard to combo
- Jigglypuff's aerials beat our aerials (unless she's above Kirby, then U-Air > Jigg's D-Air)
- Jigglypuff can pressure us almost seamlessly with SH F-Air and N-Air thanks to their active frames
- Jigglypuff has two mean moves on the ground with Dash Attack and Rest, both of which can punish even the slightest of mistakes and get rid of stocks

Copy Ability
Considering Jigglypuff is an aerial fighter, Rollout is useless. One of the worst Copy Abilities in relation to the MU. Don't do it.

Specials
Hammer Flip does good in outranging the aerials of Jigglypuff, but because of the ending frames on it, it'll likely lead to a Rest, which can equal a lost stock. I suggest only using it if you are confident enough.

Final Cutter is surprisingly useful in this MU. The projectile of the move does cover SHs and because of it, can stuff Jigglypuff from afar. It is also very useful in trying to punish a drop-to-attack approach back onto stage. If Jigglypuff tries to drop-and-attack from off the ledge, you can time it to where you can get the meteor and almost certainly take over a stock if they do not DI inwards and tech, no matter the % since the meteor smash from FC has set KB. Be careful, as using FC too much can lead to getting read and Rested, which pretty much is a stock thanks to Kirby's light weight. Consider FC as an option in some scenarios.

Stone is BAD onstage, as it leads to a free Rest almost every time. Stone offstage is not too good either...so I only use it when I can catch "greed" against Jigglypuff. Use sparingly.

Comments
This is a very weird MU. Our footsies and combo game are really shot down thanks to how aerially mobile and floaty Jigglypuff is. Trying to anti-air Jigglypuff is a dangerous thing for Kirby's part, so the best way to put it, at least from my part, is making the MU a game of trades. Going for trades on her SH F-Airs and N-Airs are better than trying to anti-air. Part of it has to do with how Kirby's moves extend his hurtbox. With how long Jigglypuff's aerials are active, she can simply weave in and out of possibly anti-air attempts and punish Kirby easily. The reason why her aerials stuff ours is this exact reason: Kirby's aerials extend his hurtbox (as well as some of them being faster than our entire aerial set).

Kirby has to stay on the ground at all costs in this MU, as his abilities on the ground are really good, but is aerially outclassed by Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff is not the best ground fighter, but she has a ridiculous DA that can bypass even our smashes and KO us, so knowing when to anticipate that is paramount here. Her grounded moves also have quite a bit of active frames, as well. Catching Jigglypuff with D-Tilt when it trips is amazing in this MU, as Jigglypuff doesn't slide back too much and she is incredibly light, meaning D-Tilt to F-Smash can and will kill her if she gets too sloppy on the brief ground combat.

In terms of the trades, your best bet is to punish with F-Smash angled upwards, which is pretty consistent with trading against Jigglypuff's SH F-Air. Be wary, though, as B-Air can wind up KOing us as well as our F-Smash hitting her. Also, do not be afraid to run at Jigglypuff during her SHs, as you can run under her and punish with U-Smash at times, which can KO very early thanks to being the lightest character. Overall, go for trades or risky anti-airs when she uses SH approaches, and use Kirby's awesome ground abilities when she has (briefly) landed for some ground game.

This MU, imo, is 45:55 in 's favor. Her aerial mobility and long-lasting moves are a pain to someone like Kirby, who has problems approaching; however, his power, ground speed, and range can make the MU into a game of trades, which Kirby can win. It all comes down to who makes the most out of each move, so it is approximately even-ish.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@MikeKirby or @kirbykid have any info to give on either character?
We could use a couple more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Still looking to play any Kirby mains on the East Coast.

I'm always down to level up and learn new match-ups.

 

[Wintermelon43]

==Jigglypuff==

Pros:
*Jigglypuff is kinda wide, which might make it easy to combo her
*Jigglypuff's light weight makes it easier to KO her, espicially with up throw.


Cons:
*Both Jigglypuff and Kirby have good, combo starting up tilts, which makes it harder to use up tilt to combo
*Kirby is kinda wide, which makes him easier than some other characters to rest
*Her jab, tilts, and any other other fast attacks, (Even down and back air) make it hard to grab her. This isn't that bad though, you shoudn't have difficuty grabbing her.


Inhale Ability:
Don't bother inhaling Jigglypuff at all. Jigglypuff's neutral special isn't that good. I mean I guess you could use it to recovery but if you take too long Jigglypuff could punish you, and chances are if you can't recover with your jumps and final cutter, you woudn't be able to with rollout anyway.

Customs:

Neutral special: Ice Breath. Jigglypuff's neutral special is pretty much useless, so it's better to have a move that is sitional than a move that is useless.

Side Special: Use default, you want the ability to charge it, since Jigglypuff may run into you to use back air or pound, and than you can punish her. And if she misses rest, you can use a pretty good amount of charge on your hammer to punish and KO.

Up Special:Third One

Down Special:Meteor Stone. You're gonna be offstage a lot, so being able to meteor smash and KO is useful.
Stage Picks:

A stage with wide side-blastlines is defitenly the best, since then you can survive jigglupuff's air easily. no high-blastline either is good. And don't do Battlefield, you want Jigglypuff to not land so that she has to stop comboing due to losing jumps,
Additional Notes:
If Jigglypuff misses rest, use the best possible amount of charge Hammer you can. Chances are she'll die.

Matchup Ratio:In Between 50:50 and 55:45. If that's not allowed, I pick 55:45

@ SapphSabre777 Ah, that explains it. "This is a very weird matchup" It took a hour for me to think if things about the matchup lol.

 

[Mega-Spider]

How about Link? Something tells me that it's a poor MU for Kirby since Link can space with his projectiles and Link has incredible knockback ability.
Or you could get clowns like these:

 

[Wintermelon43]

How about Link? Something tells me that it's a poor MU for Kirby since Link can space with his projectiles and Link has incredible knockback ability.
Or you could get clowns like these:

Imo Toon Link's 45:55, Idk about normal Link though since most of them are Patrick from Spongebob, but it's defitenly not in our favor or even.

 

[Dessa]

One of my friends is a great link, and he's a major pain in the ass to fight with kirby. He's full of zoning tools and disjointed hitboxes, his Dair will beat your u-anything every time, and he's got all kinds of crap flying everywhere all the time that's hard to deal with. His up-b is surprisingly hard to dair too (you need to get him right in the middle).

In Kirby's favor, he can shoot arrows beneath Link's shield, and link can be sucked into utilt strings for a good while because he is so heavy. Just mind that you dont milk that for too long or he will just dair you.

I don't rate matchups, but this is a tough one for me at least.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Fought a kirby in tourney tonight. 2 stocked him.

7-3 ryus favor les gooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[DanGR]

Still looking to play any Kirby mains on the East Coast.

I'm always down to level up and learn new match-ups.

I can't play tonight, but I can hit you up another night and see how things go.

Do you play with/against customs ever?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah I like customs a lot. Sad that nj has them banned now.

 

[SapphSabre777]

@ Nu~ Just making sure before I "finalize" the week. Considering you mentioned overrating your ratio for the Pac-Man v. Kirby, is the ratio diffferent?

Anyways, for everybody, IT IS TIME!

REDISCUSSION POLL = http://strawpoll.me/5258634/

Top two will be rediscussed, and the results will be in by Thursday night. Happy voting!