The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[Underhill]

Here we go

Rosalina & Luma:

Pros:
- Luma is really easy to be K.O.'d, and most of Kirby's moves have enough knockback to knock Luma off-stage.
- The Copy Ability is useful, giving Kirby an useful projectile, which will combo from a D-air.
- Rosalina's recovery deals no damage, and it's easy to punish.
- Rosalina can be punished more easily without Luma.

Cons:
- Luma can fight Kirby while Rosalina is in a safer spot.
- Kirby's floatiness, aswell as Rosa's, makes it easy for Rosa to hit her Fai, Nair, and Bair easily.
- Rosalina's Uair is really strong, combined with how floaty Kirby is, it can kill him easily.
- Rosalina is really hard to punish when she has Luma, meaning one needs to take Luma out to punish Rosalina reliably.
- Luma is an amazing Edgeguarder, which will give Kirby some trouble if he gets launched horizontally.
- Rosalina's forward and down smashes have Disjointed Hitboxes, making them hard to punish.
- Only Luma Shot can be crouched, but with good spacing, Rosalina can punish Kirby crouching if Luma is above Kirby and uses a Down Smash

Final Score:
35:65 Rosalina has a great advantage over Kirby, with her strongest kill moves not requiring Luma, and beign vertical, which Kirby is vulnerable to.
I gave myself some time to rethink, and since this doesn't seem so credible, i'd change it to 45:55 , i don't really have much competitive experience yet, all i have is For Glory, and the people there can't make me see the actual meta, i guess i just kinda exaggerated.

This may be late, but about the Kirby/Rosalina MU; I think may think the MU is in Rosalina is at 60/40 best, but only because if the Kirby players don't know the match-up since Rosalina can wall out Kirby easily. Don't forget about her forward tile and down tile as well since she can use those to out-space Kirby. I don't think you're exaggerating, it's just that the MU is hard for Kirby in my opinion. Otherwise, the rest of the info above are good so far.
I face a decent Kirby player online with Rosalina, but it still not enough for me to experience the MU since I have For Glory as well. However, I watch a really good competitive Kirby player named MikeKirby, to improve my Kirby and watching him dealing with the MU.

 

[SapphSabre777]

So @ Togii has given me ownership of the thread today. First, thank you for considering me for running the thread and allowing me to do so. I hope that you will be able to do the things that are your primary focus.

Secondly, although I can't give any impact on MUs from my perspective (giving ratios), the least I can do is to make sure this thread and the discussions of such are handled with post-haste and accuracy. With how the other threads nearly finished with their MU threads, we need to pick up our quality and pace. I can make sure of that (considering I have nothing else to do this Summer and such), and I hope I can make this thread what it was aimed to be during the previous ownerships, if not better.

I'll be looking at what we can do with the thread immediately, and I'll let you guys know what we can do, in terms of options. ^^

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

So @ Togii has given me ownership of the thread today. First, thank you for considering me for running the thread and allowing me to do so. I hope that you will be able to do the things that are your primary focus.

Secondly, although I can't give any impact on MUs from my perspective (giving ratios), the least I can do is to make sure this thread and the discussions of such are handled with post-haste and accuracy. With how the other threads nearly finished with their MU threads, we need to pick up our quality and pace. I can make sure of that (considering I have nothing else to do this Summer and such), and I hope I can make this thread what it was aimed to be during the previous ownerships, if not better.

I'll be looking at what we can do with the thread immediately, and I'll let you guys know what we can do, in terms of options. ^^

please for the love of god make a rule that states that you must have the MU experience to post matchups. I'm done with the 70:30s. The only MU that is good enough for that is MAYBE wii fit. thats it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

please for the love of god make a rule that states that you must have the MU experience to post matchups. I'm done with the 70:30s. The only MU that is good enough for that is MAYBE wii fit. thats it.

How much was 70:30 in Melee and Brawl anyway? Hard-Counter?

 

[Togii]

please for the love of god make a rule that states that you must have the MU experience to post matchups. I'm done with the 70:30s. The only MU that is good enough for that is MAYBE wii fit. thats it.

As I've said before, even if you make that a rule, it's impossible to enforce.

How much was 70:30 in Melee and Brawl anyway? Hard-Counter?

Think of matchup ratios as percentages. 70:30 means that, provided the players are of equal skill levels, Kirby would win 7/10 games.

 

[Wintermelon43]

As I've said before, even if you make that a rule, it's impossible to enforce.



Think of matchup ratios as percentages. 70:30 means that, provided the players are of equal skill levels, Kirby would win 7/10 games.

So is that a Hard-Counter or an unwinnable/loseable

 

[Togii]

So is that a Hard-Counter or an unwinnable/loseable

No. The disadvantaged character would still win ~1/3 of the games with that ratio. It's not unwinnable, just difficult.

 

[meda9871]

Right now we are on Rosaluma and DK, yet we are still questioning ZSS. Does anyone else have any input because so far only @Kooby, @ Underhill , and I have put in any info on these matchups so far. I understand the reason for ZSS but we really need to come to a conclusion.

Also, if we include everyone who even gave any matchup rating, it's about 60:40 in Kirby's favor

 

[Togii]

The ZSS matchup discussion is over afaik, I updated the main post around a week ago for her.

I don't have any experience against Rosalina & Luma, and not enough experience against DK to write matchups on them. I feel a lot of people voted for them because they wanted to learn how to fight against them, but nobody really has too much experience against them; we only have 2 legit analyses on each.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I've contacted the boards for Rosa and DK for some input a few hours ago. Hopefully we get some input soon.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've contacted the boards for Rosa and DK for some input a few hours ago. Hopefully we get some input soon.

For Rosalina, you should try to use a differant thread. Their social thread is so popular, your post is already buried

 

[SapphSabre777]

For Rosalina, you should try to use a differant thread. Their social thread is so popular, your post is already buried

I went ahead and posted it under the Q&A Thread...you were right on how popular it is (4 pages buried). Kind of surprising, to be honest, but they had a bunch of MK8 content being posted. Makes me have the urge to play that on my Wii U now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

The ZSS matchup discussion is over afaik, I updated the main post around a week ago for her.

I don't have any experience against Rosalina & Luma, and not enough experience against DK to write matchups on them. I feel a lot of people voted for them because they wanted to learn how to fight against them, but nobody really has too much experience against them; we only have 2 legit analyses on each.

Donkey Kong's one of the rarest characters online, not many people will know his matchup

 

[Togii]

Donkey Kong's one of the rarest characters online, not many people will know his matchup

I'd rather people not analyze the matchup based on FG anyway.

 

[RedNova]

I also like to wait for a MU that I'm familiar with before I post something. I know it's bad to use FG/Online experience but it's the only thing most of us have. Fortunatley, a local scene has started in my area, and they have really good players, so I hope I can contribute a lot more to this thread.

My sparring buddy uses DK (albeit not his main) so I have at least some experience in the matchup


Pros:
-He get's combo very easily, and some of his arials have a slow startup, so it's possible to rack up damage really quickly.
-His gigantic hurtbox helps a lot in the matchup, because we can connnect his moves 90% of the time
-His recovery is extremly gimpable if you time it right, so it must be the priority

Cons:
-Although he get's combo'd for days, with just two moves he can deal as much damage as we do.
-His moves reach out very far, so we need excellent spacing so we don't get caught in his punishes
-Crouching does not help at all, beacuse his moves start close to the ground

Copy Ability:
-Giant punch can be very helpful, because it can be combo'd from a down air, which is very easy to connect. The only problem is finding time to charge it, and it need to be charged to the max to he useful.

Custom Moves:
-Upper Cutter as always
-Meteor Stone if you have godlike aim, because it can meteor Kong Cyclone, which is very very hard to do with down air.
-Jumping Inhale to get him offstage for those early kills

-Kong Cyclone is the bane of edgeguards, because it drags Kirby offstage and can even stage spike unexpectedly. Handle with extreme caution
-Storm Punch is also dangerous, so watch out your jumps and try to recover low (but avoid his spikes!)


Final Score:
50:50 When it comes down to it, the best skill wins. While you can combo DK easily and gimp him early, you can also die at 60% from the top with a well placed up air or even down smash.
With customs on, edguarding becomes a nightmare but it's not completly impossible.

 

[SapphSabre777]

I've been looking back at past results of the previous weeks, and I think it would be best to end the talks this Sunday, 6/28. As much as we need to get more input on these MUs, it has been quite a few weeks, with very little input. I think we need to set up an end and go to a new pair of MUs relatively soon. Plus, we can just go back to the MUs and continue to adjust them, which we will likely need to do later.

For now, make sure you vote HERE for which two characters we should do for "Week 6," and make sure you try and put in that last hurrah on the current two MUs within RosaLuma and DK. Thanks for understanding, and let me know of any conflicts. ^^

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Kirby vs. DK
+ DK is juggled very easily
+ Pretty much every move connects because he's huge
+ He's incredibly gimpable, one footstool or well timed dair will end a stock
+ We can utilize his copy ability pretty well, combos out of DAir, can be used to edgeguard his "recovery"

- We are killed super early from half of his kit
- His moves have a ton of reach
- BAir is pretty fast and can intercept our recovery
- UAir is super fast, so be careful how you use Stone up top
55-45 imo (vanilla)
In this matchup I'd just keep to the air and make use of my multiple jumps in approaching
Bait & Wait
Can't really offer much advice because all the DKs I've played used custom Kong, so lol windboxes
Oy customs
I would try to recover as low as possible, stay far and use Jumping Inhale when he starts that Kong Cyclone bs
Storm Punch comes out pretty quick, so it's better to recover low
Again, he's easily gimped so if you have the go ahead, Meteor Stone that mofo.
He has a side B w/Super Armor which is pretty slow to start up, so as long as you don't throw out moves willynilly, you should be okay
I'm not so sure how to rate this custom MU tbh, all of the custom DKs I've played have tried to get away with that up-b BS only to get jump inhaled. I know the move can be used better so I don't want to say 55-45
Maybe 50-50

So @ Togii has given me ownership of the thread today. First, thank you for considering me for running the thread and allowing me to do so. I hope that you will be able to do the things that are your primary focus.

Secondly, although I can't give any impact on MUs from my perspective (giving ratios), the least I can do is to make sure this thread and the discussions of such are handled with post-haste and accuracy. With how the other threads nearly finished with their MU threads, we need to pick up our quality and pace. I can make sure of that (considering I have nothing else to do this Summer and such), and I hope I can make this thread what it was aimed to be during the previous ownerships, if not better.

I'll be looking at what we can do with the thread immediately, and I'll let you guys know what we can do, in terms of options. ^^

Gratz!
Now let's get stuff started!

 

[Big O]

DK is combo food, so Kirby has an easy time racking up damage with his combo starters. Pretty much any combo that you have will work on DK and he is probably in the top 3 easiest to combo characters in the game.

If Kirby ever lands a footstool or Dair offstage DK loses a stock. I've heard Jumping Inhale vs Kong Cyclone is another instant KO offstage, so Kirby should probably stick with that custom for this MU.

DK can stage spike you with his Cargo throw game, so if you aren't on point with those techs you can get KO'd as early as 50% from a grab next to the ledge. His Side B also breaks shields that are slightly damaged and will lead to a fully charged Fsmash that KO's at like 40%. If Kirby ever gets spiked by DK's Dair or Fair, he's pretty much dead.

DK has a huge range advantage in this MU and Kirby is pretty slow overall (especially in the air), so your spacing needs to be on point or you will get zoned out. Giant Punch in particular is especially brutal and can KO you extremely early if he gets a good read. While Kirby is one of the few characters that likes approaching from above with Dair sometimes, DK can easily beat Dair with Utilt, Hot Slap (fire Down B), or trade with Uair. Those moves also have high knockback and can KO Kirby if he is being reckless.

I've seen more online Kirby players SD with DK's punch than have KO'd me with it. Punching in the air puts you in freefall. If it gets blocked next to an edge you will SD. The first point is probably common knowledge, but not many know about the second point so I figure it's better to just mention both.

DK vs Kirby is pretty evenish customs off. I haven't played against Kirby with customs, so I don't really know how that would end up. If I had to guess, DK has a slight advantage with customs on.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Also, a suggestion, you should put the anylsis's on the main post so people can see it easily if they want it.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Also, a suggestion, you should put the anylsis's on the main post so people can see it easily if they want it.

I've seen a few places on the boards that have the MU description finalized, as well as a few representatives showcasing why the numbers are as they are. Perhaps we could do that as well? It would leave a lot less clutter than linking to stuff everywhere. This is just an idea.

Also, I would like to inform that we do have a tie within the poll for 2nd place, so make sure you vote. It always is a pain to handle ties, and I do plan on keeping up with the 2 characters per "week" sort of thing, unless it would be better to increase it to 3, but that'd get cluttered up really quick, imo.

I digress, just throwing out some ideas since we are a bit behind in presenting MUs in a manner akin to the other character boards.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I've seen a few places on the boards that have the MU description finalized, as well as a few representatives showcasing why the numbers are as they are. Perhaps we could do that as well? It would leave a lot less clutter than linking to stuff everywhere. This is just an idea.

Also, I would like to inform that we do have a tie within the poll for 2nd place, so make sure you vote. It always is a pain to handle ties, and I do plan on keeping up with the 2 characters per "week" sort of thing, unless it would be better to increase it to 3, but that'd get cluttered up really quick, imo.

I digress, just throwing out some ideas since we are a bit behind in presenting MUs in a manner akin to the other character boards.

Yes do that (The first paragraph)

 

[t!MmY]

How are the match-up ratios being determined on the first post? It's just a little bit confusing because, for instance, I looked at Zero Suit Samus and saw it listed as [60:40] but none of the contributors stated those numbers (only 70:30 or 50:50 were given among the five).

If some arbitrary middle ground is being used, such as a median, I feel all it does is give a false indication of what the contributors have to say. Just because one person says 70:30 and other says 50:50 the match-up doesn't magically become 60:40.

Also, I appreciate everyone's input, but I feel like players who go to in-person tournaments should be given the most weight in what they say. When I come in here and read the match-ups it's not going to help me if it's all based on people playing against CPUs, the best player at their Junior High School, and/or their little sister.

People who want to give input who don't go to in-person tournaments should at the least give feedback based on videos of high-level play. And then only bring up objective data such as what moves/strategies were used and how it worked out in the match-up.

Analysis from For Glory play can be brought up, but it should be pretty solid match-up info. It's almost worthless to talk about match-ups from For Glory if all everyone does is roll around and throw out Smash Attacks.

This is just what I had to say in hopes of improving the quality of this thread.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I do 3 online tourneys a week, but the past 2/2 smash 4 tourneys I've signed up for I had to cancel on. I'm going to EXP and maybe Summit, with some weeklies in between in the summer. I watch a lot of Kirby vids too.

I don't know if I'm credible to give MUs, so I don't think I am anymore. I feel like Mike, TripleR, Prince, and the other big Kirby players should compile their own MU thread, then sticky and lock it.

Instead of that, we can make a Skype group for MUs and the big players can give an analysis and all of us give our opinions/ideas and the big players can take that into consideration and change it or not. This might be the most accurate way. @ t!MmY

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I enter the occasionally online tourney and go to some weeklies in NY
Will be going to SKTAR & Apex

I do 3 online tourneys a week, but the past 2/2 smash 4 tourneys I've signed up for I had to cancel on. I'm going to EXP and maybe Summit, with some weeklies in between in the summer. I watch a lot of Kirby vids too.

I don't know if I'm credible to give MUs, so I don't think I am anymore. I feel like Mike, TripleR, Prince, and the other big Kirby players should compile their own MU thread, then sticky and lock it.

Instead of that, we can make a Skype group for MUs and the big players can give an analysis and all of us give our opinions/ideas and the big players can take that into consideration and change it or not. This might be the most accurate way. @ t!MmY

We have a Kirby Skype group
I know Poyo and Mike are in it

 

[RedNova]

I tought the skype group was cancelled because the board activity would fall

 

[SapphSabre777]

How are the match-up ratios being determined on the first post? It's just a little bit confusing because, for instance, I looked at Zero Suit Samus and saw it listed as [60:40] but none of the contributors stated those numbers (only 70:30 or 50:50 were given among the five).

If some arbitrary middle ground is being used, such as a median, I feel all it does is give a false indication of what the contributors have to say. Just because one person says 70:30 and other says 50:50 the match-up doesn't magically become 60:40.

Also, I appreciate everyone's input, but I feel like players who go to in-person tournaments should be given the most weight in what they say. When I come in here and read the match-ups it's not going to help me if it's all based on people playing against CPUs, the best player at their Junior High School, and/or their little sister.

People who want to give input who don't go to in-person tournaments should at the least give feedback based on videos of high-level play. And then only bring up objective data such as what moves/strategies were used and how it worked out in the match-up.

Analysis from For Glory play can be brought up, but it should be pretty solid match-up info. It's almost worthless to talk about match-ups from For Glory if all everyone does is roll around and throw out Smash Attacks.

This is just what I had to say in hopes of improving the quality of this thread.

I can see your point in the first two paragraphs, and I can understand why that might give a false notation of what the MU might be. As such, I have a rough idea of what could be done to change it up:

Spoiler: Idea

Create a Tournament-Caliber Council for MUs: I do agree with T!mmy and having more weight on experienced players. The problem, in a group, is to give representation to all of the willing participants. The idea of a council would be to allow people to state their MUs for a few days, then let a "council" of players determine which MU is most appropriate, or to create another MU ratio to analyze (though granted, assuming the biggest MU is 30:70, odds are one MU matches up in the group). Once a majority or a consensus has been reached, the majority ratio will be used for the first post chart.

If a tie occurs between 2 MUs, a tiebreaker will commence and the council will vote with the MUs. If a tie occurs again with the same MUs, or if all the MUs have equal votes (which may happen if the council is even in numbers), then a notable representative of the opponent in the Kirby MU will be the final tiebreaker (i.e. Skarfelt, a Fox main, being the tiebreaker in the Fox v. Kirby MU).

The big problem will be determining the aforementioned council itself. We can agree that some individuals deserve to identify the MU (i.e. Asdioh, Triple R, etc.), but others may be less known, but have a record. If this idea is agreed upon, we can work on patching the holes.

As an example of how the thread would hypothetically work, assume we look at the Kirby v. Sheik MU.

The people in chat can post their thoughts on the possible ratios, giving points to convince and outline the MU, in their eyes. Of course, what the council thinks and what we think are different, but persuasion is definitely possible. Heck, even the council can persuade and such with the crowd, if they so please.

After an undisclosed time, the ratios will be compiled and the council will vote on the appropriate ratio. If a super-majority is reached with some council members yet to vote (say 3 out of 5 support a 50:50), the ratio will be the majority immediately to save time; otherwise, voting will continue. A vote by a council member cannot be taken back unless there was a typo in writing the error (though very unlikely), meaning the members must choose an MU and stick with it. Further discussion on the MU is allowed, even through the voting phase.

The votes of the council will be sent to someone (I can do it, if that is fine with you) through whatever means you so wish (PMs might be best, though announcing through the thread can work as well).

Pros

• All people can make claims and argue about an MU ratio
• More accuracy thanks to tournament Kirbys
• MU numbers lie in active tournament-goers

Cons

• Election and maintenance of "council" may be time-consuming
• Determining how many ratios are considered too many to analyze

That's all I've got. I am pretty sure I left out an important point or not addressed a flaw, but we can address and patch as we go. As of right now, though...the next MU will carry out as planned tomorrow, and whatever MU-finding method that we will use as an improvement...I will make sure that the "week" after these next MUs, it will be used. However, if you guys feel that determining what to do with MUs is more important than discussing MUs, let me know.

It's getting late for me, and I have church, so I'm going to chill now. Let me know if this idea is fine with you all, and if you have any other comments and questions.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Yes, this is a double-post, but I have updated the first post with the MUs. According to our current method of finding MUs, I've determined Rosa is 45:55 (40:60 and 60:40 cancel out, even though it averages to around 48) and DK is 50:50.

This "week" will be about two things:

1) Mario and Yoshi MUs
2) Discussing Ideas to Find MUs

It seems like a majority agree that our current method of finding match-up ratios is incredibly flawed, and changes will need to be made to give the upmost accuracy parallel to some of the other character boards, if not outright scrapping our current method of finding MUs.

This is what I heavily recommend by the group to make sure we get a move on, as stressful and demanding as it sounds:

1) We will very likely be using the new methods of finding MUs for the Mario and Yoshi week. Therefore, we need to think of or agree upon a new way to find MUs with post-haste. The longer we dwell on this, the more behind we will be compared to the other groups, so I urge you guys to collaborate on ideas or agree with ideas.

2) So that we don't lose time focusing on one thing, we will also be talking about the Mario and Yoshi match-ups this week. Continue on with the discussion of the match-up, regardless of how one's input may be interpreted or used by the new method of finding MUs.

I apologize for any stress in regards to the situation, but I believe that quickly assessing the problem and collaborating to solve it whilst doing normal business will be best for the thread's health and credibility. Again, let me know if there are any questions and such. Thank you, and hopefully I will write back to you all about Holiday World!

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I enter the occasionally online tourney and go to some weeklies in NY
Will be going to SKTAR & Apex

We have a Kirby Skype group
I know Poyo and Mike are in it

Wait what? I was talking about a skype group with either t!mmy or mike or something and they said they wont make one cuz it ill ruin the activity of the kirby boards :o

Now that there is one, can I join it?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I tought the skype group was cancelled because the board activity would fall

Nope it's there anyways LOL

Wait what? I was talking about a skype group with either t!mmy or mike or something and they said they wont make one cuz it ill ruin the activity of the kirby boards :o

Now that there is one, can I join it?

My skype is wolfie9090

 

[Togii]

I like the council idea, but I think it only works in theory. In reality, a "council" of top players having the final say on the matchups are most likely not going to be convinced by randoms posting their thoughts on a board, and likely not by people who go to events but don't place. My fear is that it will devolve quickly into all matchups being decided by the "council", discarding input from lesser players.

I think a better way is to maybe have a list of "tournament players", and for your matchup analysis to be taken seriously, you must be on the list. You would be put on the list by posting a link to the challonge of a tourney you've been in recently, or a VoD of you playing in tournament recently. This keeps the pool from which we draw our matchup ratios wide, but keeps it from being the most elite players exclusively deciding the matchups.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I like the council idea, but I think it only works in theory. In reality, a "council" of top players having the final say on the matchups are most likely not going to be convinced by randoms posting their thoughts on a board, and likely not by people who go to events but don't place. My fear is that it will devolve quickly into all matchups being decided by the "council", discarding input from lesser players.

I think a better way is to maybe have a list of "tournament players", and for your matchup analysis to be taken seriously, you must be on the list. You would be put on the list by posting a link to the challonge of a tourney you've been in recently, or a VoD of you playing in tournament recently. This keeps the pool from which we draw our matchup ratios wide, but keeps it from being the most elite players exclusively deciding the matchups.

I'm up for this.

 

[Altair357]

Anyone can pay the few bucks to enter a tourney and then suddenly be eligible for the council. Doesn't prove anything. It's hard to filter out opinions from the inexperienced players.

Hey, I just thought of a silly idea. You know how the Ganondorf boards have a power ranking, and you can play online against some of their respected players to get an opinion on your skill level, and get placed on the PR? We might see fit to do something like that. Maybe you could play one or more of the better players here and they'd determine how much your opinion matters when it comes to matchup discussion. It goes without saying that online play should be taken with a grain of salt, but it's still possible to get a rough idea of how competent someone is as a player.

An argument I could see against this is that player skill does not translate to experience in specific matchups. While that's true, not every tournament scene will have skilled players of the characters that are being discussed, anyway. Maybe this could work in conjunction with Togii's idea, though, and VoDs would be necessary as well.

Another argument might be that this is too complicated, or that these boards aren't active enough for a lot of people to get opinions from good Kirby players in a reasonable amount of time. I agree with both of these arguments, but hey, I'm just throwing ideas to the wall and seeing what sticks.

Is this a stupid idea, or does it have some merit?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Anyone can pay the few bucks to enter a tourney and then suddenly be eligible for the council. Doesn't prove anything. It's hard to filter out opinions from the inexperienced players.

Hey, I just thought of a silly idea. You know how the Ganondorf boards have a power ranking, and you can play online against some of their respected players to get an opinion on your skill level, and get placed on the PR? We might see fit to do something like that. Maybe you could play one or more of the better players here and they'd determine how much your opinion matters when it comes to matchup discussion. It goes without saying that online play should be taken with a grain of salt, but it's still possible to get a rough idea of how competent someone is as a player.

An argument I could see against this is that player skill does not translate to experience in specific matchups. While that's true, not every tournament scene will have skilled players of the characters that are being discussed, anyway. Maybe this could work in conjunction with Togii's idea, though, and VoDs would be necessary as well.

Another argument might be that this is too complicated, or that these boards aren't active enough for a lot of people to get opinions from good Kirby players in a reasonable amount of time. I agree with both of these arguments, but hey, I'm just throwing ideas to the wall and seeing what sticks.

Is this a stupid idea, or does it have some merit?

I actually really like this idea.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Anyone can pay the few bucks to enter a tourney and then suddenly be eligible for the council. Doesn't prove anything. It's hard to filter out opinions from the inexperienced players.

Hey, I just thought of a silly idea. You know how the Ganondorf boards have a power ranking, and you can play online against some of their respected players to get an opinion on your skill level, and get placed on the PR? We might see fit to do something like that. Maybe you could play one or more of the better players here and they'd determine how much your opinion matters when it comes to matchup discussion. It goes without saying that online play should be taken with a grain of salt, but it's still possible to get a rough idea of how competent someone is as a player.

An argument I could see against this is that player skill does not translate to experience in specific matchups. While that's true, not every tournament scene will have skilled players of the characters that are being discussed, anyway. Maybe this could work in conjunction with Togii's idea, though, and VoDs would be necessary as well.

Another argument might be that this is too complicated, or that these boards aren't active enough for a lot of people to get opinions from good Kirby players in a reasonable amount of time. I agree with both of these arguments, but hey, I'm just throwing ideas to the wall and seeing what sticks.

Is this a stupid idea, or does it have some merit?

Judging by how everyone is liking you and @ Togii 's posts, they seem like good ideas. Heck, one person ended up saying that a combination of the ideas would be great. Much better than my idea by a longshot, honestly.

I just have one question...both to you and @ Togii : You guys mentioned the high "PR" players and such, in conjunction with the low "PR" players. Will there be any difference between high "PR" opinions and low "PR" opinions, such as different weights? Or will they be treated the same and weigh the same in MUs? I'm just curious.

 

[Togii]

Judging by how everyone is liking you and @ Togii 's posts, they seem like good ideas. Heck, one person ended up saying that a combination of the ideas would be great. Much better than my idea by a longshot, honestly.

I just have one question...both to you and @ Togii : You guys mentioned the high "PR" players and such, in conjunction with the low "PR" players. Will there be any difference between high "PR" opinions and low "PR" opinions, such as different weights? Or will they be treated the same and weigh the same in MUs? I'm just curious.

In my plan, only discussion/input from players with tournament evidence would be taken into consideration when updating the main post for the official matchup ratio. @ Altair357 has a pretty good idea, but it seems really complicated; I might just be misunderstanding it. It seems that, in order to have your matchup analysis taken into consideration, you would need to play one of the top ranked Kirbies online in a Bo3 (or whatever is decided on) and have a VoD of you playing in tournament A couple of issues I have with this:

1) Not all tournaments are streamed. Getting tournament VoDs is a pain in the ass if your tourney isn't streamed, and basically impossible if you don't have capture hardware/software available
2) Placing the burden of "auditioning" people on the top Kirby players. They'll get a bunch of requests, and they'll probably tire of Kirby dittos pretty quickly.
3) There isn't any sort of concrete way to know if you passed the "audition", and it will be pretty much subjective analysis on the part of the PR player.
4) All of this sets up a huge barrier to entry to just discuss matchups in the thread. We have probably less than 10 people here who contribute moderately often, and that number will only go down with such harsh requirements; many tournament players probably wouldn't bother.

Anyway, that's my input on the situation. I think a simple VoD and/or challonge bracket is enough to give your analyses merit, provided you don't do terribly in the tournament and/or VoD.

I'm gonna try to write up my Mario matchup when I get home today, as my main training partner mains Mario and is the best Mario I've played. My other training partner mains Yoshi, but I want to get a few more matches in with him before I post on him.

 

[RedNova]

In my plan, only discussion/input from players with tournament evidence would be taken into consideration when updating the main post for the official matchup ratio. @ Altair357 has a pretty good idea, but it seems really complicated; I might just be misunderstanding it. It seems that, in order to have your matchup analysis taken into consideration, you would need to play one of the top ranked Kirbies online in a Bo3 (or whatever is decided on) and have a VoD of you playing in tournament A couple of issues I have with this:

1) Not all tournaments are streamed. Getting tournament VoDs is a pain in the *** if your tourney isn't streamed, and basically impossible if you don't have capture hardware/software available
2) Placing the burden of "auditioning" people on the top Kirby players. They'll get a bunch of requests, and they'll probably tire of Kirby dittos pretty quickly.
3) There isn't any sort of concrete way to know if you passed the "audition", and it will be pretty much subjective analysis on the part of the PR player.
4) All of this sets up a huge barrier to entry to just discuss matchups in the thread. We have probably less than 10 people here who contribute moderately often, and that number will only go down with such harsh requirements; many tournament players probably wouldn't bother.

Anyway, that's my input on the situation. I think a simple VoD and/or challonge bracket is enough to give your analyses merit, provided you don't do terribly in the tournament and/or VoD.

The PR idea sound great imo, but it can be a little tough to pull it off. Why don't we just continue to post analysis for the time being, and when that PR is done, the experienced Kirby players can judge if the analysis are correct, and can even help by giving posting corrections. More activity to the boards.
In the end, the expert players will have the final say in the matchup ratio that is posted on the thread, but it doesn't completley invalidate the other players' opinions.

 

[Altair357]

In my plan, only discussion/input from players with tournament evidence would be taken into consideration when updating the main post for the official matchup ratio. @ Altair357 has a pretty good idea, but it seems really complicated; I might just be misunderstanding it. It seems that, in order to have your matchup analysis taken into consideration, you would need to play one of the top ranked Kirbies online in a Bo3 (or whatever is decided on) and have a VoD of you playing in tournament A couple of issues I have with this:

1) Not all tournaments are streamed. Getting tournament VoDs is a pain in the *** if your tourney isn't streamed, and basically impossible if you don't have capture hardware/software available
2) Placing the burden of "auditioning" people on the top Kirby players. They'll get a bunch of requests, and they'll probably tire of Kirby dittos pretty quickly.
3) There isn't any sort of concrete way to know if you passed the "audition", and it will be pretty much subjective analysis on the part of the PR player.
4) All of this sets up a huge barrier to entry to just discuss matchups in the thread. We have probably less than 10 people here who contribute moderately often, and that number will only go down with such harsh requirements; many tournament players probably wouldn't bother.

Anyway, that's my input on the situation. I think a simple VoD and/or challonge bracket is enough to give your analyses merit, provided you don't do terribly in the tournament and/or VoD.

I'm gonna try to write up my Mario matchup when I get home today, as my main training partner mains Mario and is the best Mario I've played. My other training partner mains Yoshi, but I want to get a few more matches in with him before I post on him.

The PR idea sound great imo, but it can be a little tough to pull it off. Why don't we just continue to post analysis for the time being, and when that PR is done, the experienced Kirby players can judge if the analysis are correct, and can even help by giving posting corrections. More activity to the boards.
In the end, the expert players will have the final say in the matchup ratio that is posted on the thread, but it doesn't completley invalidate the other players' opinions.

Great points all around. The idea is definitely flawed, though admittedly we could also allow people to submit challonge brackets like Togii said.

@ SapphSabre777 Yeah, I didn't really think about the effect a PR would have on the matchup ratios posted. Maybe it'd be better to keep it as a binary system where you're either credible or not credible, but that still sets up a big entry barrier as you'd have to be verified by the top Kirby players.

If most everyone is in agreement, perhaps it'd be best to start with Togii's idea and see if we like it. If it works out, great. If not, we could try my idea or something else. My idea assumes that multiple good Kirby players would even be willing to go through with this, which may not be the case.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Well, things are passing through quite nicely. I think we can definitely use @ Togii 's idea this week, as a test. After the test with the MUs, we can vote on whether to continue or look at other ideas, as well as how to expand the idea...so @ Altair357 , make sure you continue to develop your ideas, as they may be used in the future.

Anyways, another thing that I'd like to add. Outside of tournaments and VoDs, another possible source of credibility would be from using replays sent from the person, as an added emphasis. Not only that, but for some players that cannot attend tournaments, it could be a nice alternative to show their proof-of-concept of the "dos and don'ts" of the MU.

Also, I think it is critical to also explain match-ups WITHOUT customs. With some tournaments not using customs, as well as the growing disdain for them, it would be in our best interest to study MUs with and without customs, akin to the "Marcina" Boards. I'll get to editing the first post in a little bit to include a formatted table of MUs, with and without customs, as well as the difference.

Thanks for all the constructive criticism and such to one another, and I hope the ideas work!

 

[Togii]

Every tournament I've seen in my region for the past 6 months has been customs on, so I will only be discussing the matchups with customs on. I will switch if they get a widespread ban, but I have close to no experience in the no-customs meta.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Every tournament I've seen in my region for the past 6 months has been customs on, so I will only be discussing the matchups with customs on. I will switch if they get a widespread ban, but I have close to no experience in the no-customs meta.

That's OK if you have no experience on the no-customs meta and MUs, because there are others at do. There is one guy I know in the Skype group that is a whiz at the meta, and talks over with MikeKirby and Poyo on some of these things. Whatever contribution you have to any MU, custom or not, is valuable here.

Also, forgive me for fiddling with the first post. I need to remember my CSC stuff. XD