The True Arena - Kirby MU Discussion "Weeks" 10/11: Ness, Meta Knight, Lucario and Lucas

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Fox MU 55:45 in our favor Pika 40:60 in his favor (its really not as bad as you think, well from how I played online)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Fox MU 55:45 in our favor Pika 40:60 in his favor (its really not as bad as you think, well from how I played online)

Online, don't determine match-ups from For Glory and stuff. I have beat plenty of Pikachu's on FG, but I still think its a bad MU.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Well I doubt its that bad anyways

 

[Thor]

Pikachu definitely wins vs Kirby. I haven't played Triple R with my Pikachu unfortunately [the best Kirby I know] as that was a while back when the game was new and I was still unsure of my main, but I can tell just from briefly messing around with Kirby that Pikachu is going to win the MU.

People can feel free to disagree with me [or just tell me off, as it's very well possible ESAM or timmy or whomever might], as I might be overlooking something important. However, I'll post a nice wall of text since I have the time and it might be useful to someone.

Spoiler: Offstage

First things first, neither character is easy to gimp, but Kirby is surprisingly *slightly* more gimpable [a rarity in most of his MUs]. If you knock out Pikachu's double jump, things reverse quickly, but Quick Attack [hereafter QA, noting this in case people here aren't familiar with the abbreviation] is very difficult to edgeguard if Pikachu has a jump, and even QA alone is tricky to actually gimp [there is ALWAYS the basic mixup of "Do I go angle 1 angle 2 or angle 2 angle 1, OR do I just do angle 1 to the ledge or angle 2 angle 3 to the ledge OR angle 4 angle 5 onstage" which can often let Pikachu avoid determined edgeguarders... plus it's just so fast and Pikachu can fall really really far before doing it, especially if he's near the wall since he has a walljump]. This, combined with Pikachu's not-that-bad airspeed (it's not high but there's worse) and Thunder being better than ever offstage, means that while you certainly can get dair or bair gimps [that's what I use as Kirby at least], it's not easy.

Meanwhile, Kirby's default up+B doesn't autosweetspot the ledge [or else I'm doing it horribly wrong -__-], so misspacing by even a little is a nice fsmash for us [although I think most would use upper cutter (dolphin slash custom), so I think this problem goes away], and Pikachu's neutral B (hereafter t-jolts) and all offstage aerials sans uair provide fantastic offstage coverage due to Kirby's relatively low airspeed. Our dair and bair can also eat airdodges alive if we time them well. My GUESS is that you should recover about ledge height and hopefully sweetspot with the double jump - recovering low is not easy due to t-jolt, bair, and maybe thunder shenanigans [Kirby's recovery ability is probably enough that these aren't worth doing, especially since inhale is an easy reversal tool], while recovering high leaves you vulnerable to a thunderspike and likely makes landing onstage difficult [fsmash and heavy skull bash [hereafter HSB] are both strong with mild-moderate startup and good range, while Pikachu's high ground speed allows Pikachu just to regrab you and possibly just throw you offstage again]. Pikachu's bthrow is a perfect tool to quickly knock anyone offstage (poor Little Mac), so if you are struggling to recover this MU can quickly become a nightmare.

That said, edgeguards to KOs shouldn't be frequent unless there is a skill gap [as far as I can tell... maybe ESAM is a god at it or whatever but I'd think even he wouldn't be able to efficiently beat Kirby offstage], and it may occur that neither of you even really attempts to do much offstage - applying pressure at the ledge is obviously safe and low risk, but they are both strong offstage and if you are consistently ahead vs a Pikachu it might be best not to push your luck, lest a reversal happen [which I think both characters are very capable of in this MU].

Spoiler: Grabs

Both characters also get a nice chunk of damage off grabs - I know Pikachu has strong throw followups off dthrow and fthrow [I think fthrow dash attack works at 0% and is 21% if we land the sweetspot, 16% otherwise, while dthrow can often lead to uair nair and more if we read the landing or have a platform], while Kirby at least has bthrow bair [I don't understand how Kirby players follow up on fthrow, I just know it happens and it looks cool]. So grabs are probably the most punishing option in this MU at low percents [besides our fully charged HSB and your fully charged hammer, but those shouldn't be happening unless there is a shield break, which I'm pretty sure shouldn't happen unless y'all have secret shield break tech I'm unaware of]. At mid-percents however, I think Kirby's options tend to fall off outside of pummels and the buffed dthrow [was very happy to see that buff... new dthrow just made me sad inside], while Pikachu still has a good pummel of its own and uair followups off mid-percent dthrow [and the ability to kick you offstage with bthrow on a whim].

At really high percents we each can KO with uthrow [it's my last resort, usually KOing Sheiks around 175% as Pikachu... I think Kirby's is like 20% earlier?], but be forewarned - if you miss the DI on a uthrow and we guess that [or godlike reactions?], anywhere from about 70% - 110% depending on rage and whatnot, we can thunder, and it will spike you into the ground hitbox. Combined with fresh uthrow, this amazing combo does 25%, with decent KO power to boot. IF you miss the DI on uthrow but react in time to Thunder, try to see which side of Pikachu you end up on and hold toward the stage to avoid death - or depending on your percent, hold no direction at all [I see people die to this early because they hold toward a direction, which (from videos I've seen) ends up raising their knockback in that direction and KOing them early...]. At higher percentages, we have to jump for this to work, but it's a potent option nonetheless.

IMPORTANT: You can DI uthrow. IF you choose to DI behind Pikachu AND we guess this and dthrow, you still pop straight up and can easily be hit without moving. If you DI in front of us, we just have to chase you, BUT we are more likely to do that anyway because we often pocket the dthrow mixup for the end. I recommend either always DIing forward and just trying to airdodge, OR always DIing behind until you really need it, then DIing forward [this may cost you early stocks, but if it's a long set and you need to condition someone, always DIing forward game 4 or 5 [or 9 or 10] could frustrate them tremendously if they're not understanding that you were playing along the whole time].

Spoiler: Neutral

Ok, we've gone over why each character wants grabs. That said, both characters have strong options outside of grabs - both have sweet utilts and some solid SH aerials that can lead into said utilts or grabs or whatever. I'd need a check on this, but I'm pretty sure Kirby SH fair and bair outrange our aerials, HOWEVER I think Pikachu can duck these and it's possible that up-angled ftilt beats them (and I think Kirby's up-angled ftilt beats out most of our attacks, utilt might as well, I know ducking does). Since both of us are hard to hit with SH aerials, grounded spacing matters. Both have reasonably good dtilts for this - Kirby's is faster according to the data I've seen, but I believe Pikachu's is slightly longer, and both are low lag, so grounded spacing is pretty obnoxious for both of us, since our dtilts outrange grabs if I'm not mistaken. I think both characters are frankly pretty fairly matched up in the boxing game as far as I can tell.

However, Pikachu wins neutral slightly for two reasons - t-jolt forces Kirby to approach, and quick attack. You can steal our t-jolts which is something of a godsend for Kirby as far as I know (since you can possibly camp with them better thanks to all those jumps), but quick attack is Pikachu's ace In the hole in a lot of MUs and this one is no exception. Quick Attack is relatively low startup (15 frames, a quarter of a second) and has HUGE mixup potential, while being a zone-breaker and combo starter - I know for certain QA -> uair is a combo at certain percents, if not it at least forces an immediate airdodge [and near the ground, that's dangerous with dsmash and grab being oh so fast on landing]. You can DEFINITELY call out quick attack approaches with utilt and bair [among other moves], but I can see this move being a bit of a headache for Kirby users to deal with - we can QA through/above you to reset spacing, QA in as an approach, QA in place to see if you react, and we can also ledge cancel it on any stage at the ledge and on basically all platforms [Battlefield in particular]. Fun fact: The second half of this move can take away Little Mac's KO Punch! Basically, we have a sweet burst movement option that lets us be almost anywhere in like half a second. You... don't.

I think I might be accidentally overstating how bad this is for the MU (it's probably decidedly less worse for y'all than like Sonic Spin Dash - it's certainly easier to intercept... I think holding jab beats it outright, not sure though), but I think QA is an exceptionally good tool that allows Pikachu to somewhat comfortably control where he is and allows us to mostly avoid bad situations while also being able to be used once in a while to go in.

Spoiler: Misc.

As far as KOing goes, we're both lightweights with moderate commitment smashes, so stocks can drop quickly but if played carefully, can also go on for a while (but if they're pushing 150%, grabs become a good KO tool because of those pummels and uthrows). Pikachu's aerials KO better in this game (or rather, bair and fair KO much better, dair is similar, nair is actually way worse for KOing but that's ok), while Kirby's bair is still nice and juicy. I'm sure Kirby players have looked into jab lock setups... note that Pikachu players have found that fthrow can work at low percents if you miss the tech, same for dair, and nair at mid percents + dtilt at high percents need to be teched... if you don't, it's a few jabs and one HSB or fsmash to clean up your stock [or tack on hefty percent]. As far as stages... Pikachu loves slopes, because of QAC (I don't understand all the details, but less lag than even just QA on flat ground), so Lylat, Kongo Jungle 64, and Castle Siege are places you should ban or expect to be taken [unless they don't use QA onstage much, at which point either avoid stages with temporary walkoffs (lol bthrow) or just... do whatever]. I think Pikachu probably wins it maybe 60-40? It's not like Kirby is horribly outclassed as far as I can see, but it mostly feels like the Brawl MU except that QA is even better than before for combos and HSB (if customs) can allow for stupid early KOs [though the dolphin slash custom may be good for these as well, I don't know].

DISCLAIMER: I am not familiar with Kirby's customs beyond jumping inhale (don't know how that affects the MU), upper cutter [which I personally like but I'm not sure is relevant], and the hammers (and frankly, I don't think Pikachu should be getting hammered more than once every best of 5 set, tops). So I did this post with just those and HSB (basically a strict upgrade) in mind. The ONLY other custom I predict you'll see from Kirby is the Thunder Wave jolt, the one that's used in the infinite (by the way Meteor Quick Attack sucks and we don't have an EVO set for the infinite anyway), but if they're using that, point blank t-jolt when you're around 40% links into itself until you're at the edge where you die to HSB, so... avoid that. It also can set up usmashes and such which basically gives us another kill set up at the cost of camping powers. If the Pikachu opts for "stun jolt", (barring a necessary Kirbycide) STEAL OUR T-JOLT! You get the regular one, but the custom one has SUPER short range, so you'll actually force us to approach.

Again, feel free to critique or add comments or whatever.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Pikachu definitely wins vs Kirby. I haven't played Triple R with my Pikachu unfortunately [the best Kirby I know] as that was a while back when the game was new and I was still unsure of my main, but I can tell just from briefly messing around with Kirby that Pikachu is going to win the MU.

People can feel free to disagree with me [or just tell me off, as it's very well possible ESAM or timmy or whomever might], as I might be overlooking something important. However, I'll post a nice wall of text since I have the time and it might be useful to someone.

Spoiler: Offstage

First things first, neither character is easy to gimp, but Kirby is surprisingly *slightly* more gimpable [a rarity in most of his MUs]. If you knock out Pikachu's double jump, things reverse quickly, but Quick Attack [hereafter QA, noting this in case people here aren't familiar with the abbreviation] is very difficult to edgeguard if Pikachu has a jump, and even QA alone is tricky to actually gimp [there is ALWAYS the basic mixup of "Do I go angle 1 angle 2 or angle 2 angle 1, OR do I just do angle 1 to the ledge or angle 2 angle 3 to the ledge OR angle 4 angle 5 onstage" which can often let Pikachu avoid determined edgeguarders... plus it's just so fast and Pikachu can fall really really far before doing it, especially if he's near the wall since he has a walljump]. This, combined with Pikachu's not-that-bad airspeed (it's not high but there's worse) and Thunder being better than ever offstage, means that while you certainly can get dair or bair gimps [that's what I use as Kirby at least], it's not easy.

Meanwhile, Kirby's default up+B doesn't autosweetspot the ledge [or else I'm doing it horribly wrong -__-], so misspacing by even a little is a nice fsmash for us [although I think most would use upper cutter (dolphin slash custom), so I think this problem goes away], and Pikachu's neutral B (hereafter t-jolts) and all offstage aerials sans uair provide fantastic offstage coverage due to Kirby's relatively low airspeed. Our dair and bair can also eat airdodges alive if we time them well. My GUESS is that you should recover about ledge height and hopefully sweetspot with the double jump - recovering low is not easy due to t-jolt, bair, and maybe thunder shenanigans [Kirby's recovery ability is probably enough that these aren't worth doing, especially since inhale is an easy reversal tool], while recovering high leaves you vulnerable to a thunderspike and likely makes landing onstage difficult [fsmash and heavy skull bash [hereafter HSB] are both strong with mild-moderate startup and good range, while Pikachu's high ground speed allows Pikachu just to regrab you and possibly just throw you offstage again]. Pikachu's bthrow is a perfect tool to quickly knock anyone offstage (poor Little Mac), so if you are struggling to recover this MU can quickly become a nightmare.

That said, edgeguards to KOs shouldn't be frequent unless there is a skill gap [as far as I can tell... maybe ESAM is a god at it or whatever but I'd think even he wouldn't be able to efficiently beat Kirby offstage], and it may occur that neither of you even really attempts to do much offstage - applying pressure at the ledge is obviously safe and low risk, but they are both strong offstage and if you are consistently ahead vs a Pikachu it might be best not to push your luck, lest a reversal happen [which I think both characters are very capable of in this MU].

Spoiler: Grabs

Both characters also get a nice chunk of damage off grabs - I know Pikachu has strong throw followups off dthrow and fthrow [I think fthrow dash attack works at 0% and is 21% if we land the sweetspot, 16% otherwise, while dthrow can often lead to uair nair and more if we read the landing or have a platform], while Kirby at least has bthrow bair [I don't understand how Kirby players follow up on fthrow, I just know it happens and it looks cool]. So grabs are probably the most punishing option in this MU at low percents [besides our fully charged HSB and your fully charged hammer, but those shouldn't be happening unless there is a shield break, which I'm pretty sure shouldn't happen unless y'all have secret shield break tech I'm unaware of]. At mid-percents however, I think Kirby's options tend to fall off outside of pummels and the buffed dthrow [was very happy to see that buff... new dthrow just made me sad inside], while Pikachu still has a good pummel of its own and uair followups off mid-percent dthrow [and the ability to kick you offstage with bthrow on a whim].

At really high percents we each can KO with uthrow [it's my last resort, usually KOing Sheiks around 175% as Pikachu... I think Kirby's is like 20% earlier?], but be forewarned - if you miss the DI on a uthrow and we guess that [or godlike reactions?], anywhere from about 70% - 110% depending on rage and whatnot, we can thunder, and it will spike you into the ground hitbox. Combined with fresh uthrow, this amazing combo does 25%, with decent KO power to boot. IF you miss the DI on uthrow but react in time to Thunder, try to see which side of Pikachu you end up on and hold toward the stage to avoid death - or depending on your percent, hold no direction at all [I see people die to this early because they hold toward a direction, which (from videos I've seen) ends up raising their knockback in that direction and KOing them early...]. At higher percentages, we have to jump for this to work, but it's a potent option nonetheless.

IMPORTANT: You can DI uthrow. IF you choose to DI behind Pikachu AND we guess this and dthrow, you still pop straight up and can easily be hit without moving. If you DI in front of us, we just have to chase you, BUT we are more likely to do that anyway because we often pocket the dthrow mixup for the end. I recommend either always DIing forward and just trying to airdodge, OR always DIing behind until you really need it, then DIing forward [this may cost you early stocks, but if it's a long set and you need to condition someone, always DIing forward game 4 or 5 [or 9 or 10] could frustrate them tremendously if they're not understanding that you were playing along the whole time].

Spoiler: Neutral

Ok, we've gone over why each character wants grabs. That said, both characters have strong options outside of grabs - both have sweet utilts and some solid SH aerials that can lead into said utilts or grabs or whatever. I'd need a check on this, but I'm pretty sure Kirby SH fair and bair outrange our aerials, HOWEVER I think Pikachu can duck these and it's possible that up-angled ftilt beats them (and I think Kirby's up-angled ftilt beats out most of our attacks, utilt might as well, I know ducking does). Since both of us are hard to hit with SH aerials, grounded spacing matters. Both have reasonably good dtilts for this - Kirby's is faster according to the data I've seen, but I believe Pikachu's is slightly longer, and both are low lag, so grounded spacing is pretty obnoxious for both of us, since our dtilts outrange grabs if I'm not mistaken. I think both characters are frankly pretty fairly matched up in the boxing game as far as I can tell.

However, Pikachu wins neutral slightly for two reasons - t-jolt forces Kirby to approach, and quick attack. You can steal our t-jolts which is something of a godsend for Kirby as far as I know (since you can possibly camp with them better thanks to all those jumps), but quick attack is Pikachu's ace In the hole in a lot of MUs and this one is no exception. Quick Attack is relatively low startup (15 frames, a quarter of a second) and has HUGE mixup potential, while being a zone-breaker and combo starter - I know for certain QA -> uair is a combo at certain percents, if not it at least forces an immediate airdodge [and near the ground, that's dangerous with dsmash and grab being oh so fast on landing]. You can DEFINITELY call out quick attack approaches with utilt and bair [among other moves], but I can see this move being a bit of a headache for Kirby users to deal with - we can QA through/above you to reset spacing, QA in as an approach, QA in place to see if you react, and we can also ledge cancel it on any stage at the ledge and on basically all platforms [Battlefield in particular]. Fun fact: The second half of this move can take away Little Mac's KO Punch! Basically, we have a sweet burst movement option that lets us be almost anywhere in like half a second. You... don't.

I think I might be accidentally overstating how bad this is for the MU (it's probably decidedly less worse for y'all than like Sonic Spin Dash - it's certainly easier to intercept... I think holding jab beats it outright, not sure though), but I think QA is an exceptionally good tool that allows Pikachu to somewhat comfortably control where he is and allows us to mostly avoid bad situations while also being able to be used once in a while to go in.

Spoiler: Misc.

As far as KOing goes, we're both lightweights with moderate commitment smashes, so stocks can drop quickly but if played carefully, can also go on for a while (but if they're pushing 150%, grabs become a good KO tool because of those pummels and uthrows). Pikachu's aerials KO better in this game (or rather, bair and fair KO much better, dair is similar, nair is actually way worse for KOing but that's ok), while Kirby's bair is still nice and juicy. I'm sure Kirby players have looked into jab lock setups... note that Pikachu players have found that fthrow can work at low percents if you miss the tech, same for dair, and nair at mid percents + dtilt at high percents need to be teched... if you don't, it's a few jabs and one HSB or fsmash to clean up your stock [or tack on hefty percent]. As far as stages... Pikachu loves slopes, because of QAC (I don't understand all the details, but less lag than even just QA on flat ground), so Lylat, Kongo Jungle 64, and Castle Siege are places you should ban or expect to be taken [unless they don't use QA onstage much, at which point either avoid stages with temporary walkoffs (lol bthrow) or just... do whatever]. I think Pikachu probably wins it maybe 60-40? It's not like Kirby is horribly outclassed as far as I can see, but it mostly feels like the Brawl MU except that QA is even better than before for combos and HSB (if customs) can allow for stupid early KOs [though the dolphin slash custom may be good for these as well, I don't know].

DISCLAIMER: I am not familiar with Kirby's customs beyond jumping inhale (don't know how that affects the MU), upper cutter [which I personally like but I'm not sure is relevant], and the hammers (and frankly, I don't think Pikachu should be getting hammered more than once every best of 5 set, tops). So I did this post with just those and HSB (basically a strict upgrade) in mind. The ONLY other custom I predict you'll see from Kirby is the Thunder Wave jolt, the one that's used in the infinite (by the way Meteor Quick Attack sucks and we don't have an EVO set for the infinite anyway), but if they're using that, point blank t-jolt when you're around 40% links into itself until you're at the edge where you die to HSB, so... avoid that. It also can set up usmashes and such which basically gives us another kill set up at the cost of camping powers. If the Pikachu opts for "stun jolt", (barring a necessary Kirbycide) STEAL OUR T-JOLT! You get the regular one, but the custom one has SUPER short range, so you'll actually force us to approach.

Again, feel free to critique or add comments or whatever.

Excellent summary, it's really no worse then 60:40 for us, I mean I feel like Kirbys approach(on ground mainly) isn't as bad as most people may think.

Yea in terms of follow ups pika does get more rewards, but ours generally KO better, both characters have great setups for grabs, but in the long run(high %s) you generally still have slightly more follow ups that still work I'm sure, our grab range is better but you have speed to compliment yours lackluster range.... Our pummel is faster(deals 1.5 damage) so maybe we MIGHT get overall more damage from ours.......So yea their grab game seems pretty evenish.
Edge guarding, you guys have more reliable options, and are slightly harder to edge guard, but we can protect ourselves offstage pretty well, but we are much slower so yea that's why we are surprisingly easy to edge guard, and you are right about final cutter :/
So you mainly win this slightly as well.

In neutral mainly your projectile and Up special give you the upper hand, in close proximity it's pretty much even, both having good tilts with decent range, very good SH ariels and stuff like that, our crouch is slightly better, but I'm sure the landing lag on some of your moves makes your crouch just as low.

For KOing we do have our smashes and Bair, hammer, stone and all but our Uair KO offstage.
We generally have the stronger attacks even if we are lighter, but you guys have the faster attacks as well,
I think this is really the only area where we beat you, but even then it's only slightly.
Our Dmash is better for KOing, but yours has faster startup and slightly better at beating step dodges, but it has a lot more end lag.
Our Usmash is slightly stronger too, and I think both have pretty much even range, but yours is faster too and you can use thunder to lead into it I believe, but again you guys have slightly more end lag in it.
Our Fsmash has lower RANGE, but the REACH makes it end up going farther then Pikas,but it's gonna be the sours
Or pretty much, this is our only smash attack that is faster then yours and Dtilt can lead into this, idk where the sweetspot is for yours, but overall ours is slightly stronger.
For setups, our Dtilt and Dair and Utilt sometimes can lead to KOs, maybe we have more, but what are yours?

But yea you guys do basically overall have the advantage mainly because of your more options and your Tjolt and QA
So if we did face you, what stages would be best to fight you on?

 

[Thor]

So if we did face you, what stages would be best to fight you on?

I did address this briefly somewhere in there, but Pikachu's QA can do this thing called Quick Attack Cancel, or QAC, on slopes. I'm not 100% on the details, but basically, QAing into a slope (or moving platform I think) causes Pikachu to have EVEN LESS endlag than just QAing onto the ground (anywhere not the edges of FD), which isn't to be confused with QA ledge cancel where we QA off the edge of a platform and end up airborne with no endlag.

Therefore, Lylat Cruise, Kongo Jungle, and Castle Siege are excetllent Pikachu stages. Battlefield also allows Pikachu players who've mastered QA ledge cancels to move around nearly effortlessly and opened tons of escape options when trying to land. From my understanding, ESAM thinks Smashville is Pikachu's worst neutral (but not BAD just not... as good, since the platform tends to make landing easier) among the 3 guaranteed neutrals (since *nearly* everyone uses SV, BF, and FD, while some use mmore), so unless you yourself hate SV don't bother striking it [and incidentally, I LOVE Smashville so I go there anyways, probably because for a while I was without a setup so I'm still really iffy on QA ledge cancels].

As far as your counterpicks... if you're heard them johning about a stage, go there? Or if you have a favorite stage, pick it? ESAM wrote a quick stage guide [hence my comment on his opinions] and none of them say "Ban this stage", except where he's like "Low ceiling, our usmash < their uair/usmash KO options". If you're primarily KOing off the top and Pikachu off the sides, Halberd is your friend, and I think Town and City is good for KOs off the top as well, as is Delfino during transitions. If you're both KOing off the sides, go short sides if you think you are more consistently landing KO moves, big sides if you'd rather just spend time damage racking and live longer (and I don't know blastzones on stages in this game besides Halberd and Delfino's being small vertically... since I think Battlefield, Lylat are both middle-ish?). If you've been KOing off the sides and Pikachu has been KOing off the top, that's a little odd unless they like usmash a lot, since fsmash and HSB both are amazing moves for KOing off sides, and then Kongo actually becomes passable since the ceiling is HUGE, and the small ceiling stages are a huge no-no.

If Kirby players have their own stage guide, I'd just use that as your basis for choosing stages in this MU, keeping in mind that Lylat Cruise, Kongo Jungle, and Castle Siege are really good for Pikachu.

EDIT: Noticed the bit about KO setups... well, if we read an airdodge or aerial after we hit you, kiss the stock goodnight if HSB is equipped via customs [and it should be]. That thing can KO ridiculously early and Kirby is a lightweight... I'd say it probably KOs reliably at 50% from most places onstage if we hit with the early portion (note that if we don't hit within the very early portion, the move is actually very weak). We don't have TOO many - there was the bit about jab locks earlier, and since Kirby's airspeed is low, if we can catch you offstage with bair, it can stage spike for an early KO, but probably around 110% on Kirby it'll also just straight up KO offstage. Pikachu can chase people with thunder after uthrow/dthrow even on DI [and that awesome uthrow thunder on missed DI], so if you don't airdodge carefully and we hit the not-spike it's lights out at high percents. Oftentimes we look to catch a landing with fsmash, which is potent since Pikachu is fast and you can fsmash out of a dash if you do it the other way [pivot fsmash]. As mentioned earlier, if we force an airdodge and land near you, dsmash is fast (it was actually nerfed to frame 8, but still fine) and can KO. If the Pikachu opts for stun jolts, those set up into KO moves very easily as well [think ZSS neutral B]. Dtilt has a trip rate like Kirby dtilt so if we trip you a usmash is a possible followup and a potent KO setup [I think that'd kill Kirby around 95% pre-dtilt on most stages], but again, we need the trip OR a missed tech to convert off dtilt. I'm sure I'm missing some, but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Foster J.]

Fox Versus Kirby sort of reminds me of the Fox v Puff MU as Kirby is a floaty who likes to make things happen off his aerials.
Meaning Kirby has safe on shield approach options unlike Fox and VERY potent off-stage gimping game which will ruin Fox.

Because Kirby is floaty too, he doesn't get combo'd for long, if ever, giving you a window for retaliation. What most Kirbys will do is the Dair to Utilt and follow up from there, but you can potentially land a Dsmash which can finish him off, therefore it's important to note that as a Kirby player you're forcing Fox to shield most of the time which opens him up for grabs

Your Uthrow can kill at higher percentages, and if there's a higher platform like BF or T&C then it's in your favour.

For the Fox part, it's important to note you'll see a lot of Nairs, nair OoS is very decent, and if spaced correctly can set you up for the weak Nair to Usmash combo (Which can be teched if you touch the stage) It's very important to not keep jumping too high, your Down B has a window where he transforms in where he can be hit by a Uair, so landing with Dair is one of your better options at covering yourself.

So try not to stay above him at all.

His lasers are also useless as you can crouch under them, and if he shoots 1 too many he's set up for free punishment from you.

I'm not sure about this part, but I believe Kirby's Fsmash has a lot of power behind it, and if used correctly will knock a shielded opponent off the stage, or at least Fox in some cases, you can use that to set up for an edgeguard opportunity, as if he falls too low you can drop run off the stage and Bair him into the stage.

I personally feel this MU might be slightly in Fox's favour, but I haven't faced any remarkable Kirbys.

 

[Spirst]

@ Togii

I've spoken with Reserved off the site and he requested that I hand ownership of the thread to you seeing as how he has no time to update it and doesn't see the real value in the MU thread in the first place. As such, I've done just that. Feel free to edit it and direct discussion as you please. If you (or any of you Kirby people) have any issues, simply tag me since I'm subbing in as the moderator for the time being.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Great maybe more things will happen now, thanks, does that mean we can talk about more then one character a week?

 

[SapphSabre777]

I can't speak too much on the Pikachu v. Kirby MU, but I've faced some Foxes here and on the Ladder and such, so I feel I can at least take a jab at it.

I think Foster J. hit a lot of points on the head, Kirby has tools and attributes that slow down Fox. I've heard many Foxes proclaim Kirby as very annoying as well. However, to be honest, I think this is just a 50:50.

Spoiler: Pros

Kirby's small size is really nice in this MU, since Fox is notorious for his jab combo, which we can escape from a bit easier than others, which means jab-to-USmash is a bit inconsistent.

We also can duck under Blasters, which is excellent for us in drawing out Fox towards us. Kirby's U-Tilt, which probably has been said a ton of times, can rack damage up on Fox easily; however, we have to use this as a punish, since Fox can counter if we just throw it out willy-nilly. But, as a punish, U-Tilt delivers in this MU.

We overall outrange Fox by a bit, so sourspots are a bit common, but we'd rather hit the other guy then get hit ourselves.

Kirby is a very strong character in terms of knockback, and Fox is very light, being able to KO Fox consistently under 100% with up-angled U-Smash and his improved U-Smash, even with DI. U-Throw also helps here, and with platforms, this powerful presence becomes more known.

Fox's means of recovery can lead to easy gimps for Kirby as well. Fox Illusion can be interrupted by D-Air, which leads to Fox Fire or whatever, which Kirby can gimp for an easy KO. It must be noted that Fox's Up-B goes pretty far, so we may have to go deep at times to get the KO.

Spoiler: Cons

One word: MOBILITY. All of Kirby's pros in this MU are arguably matched by Fox's mobility, since he can outmaneuver the puffball every which way.

Fox has a lot of tricks to draw for KOs, and unfortunately for us, we are light, so KOs against us happen sooner rather than later. Fox's aerials, such as Fast-Fall F-Air and N-Air, have range and utility, as Foster said above, so we MUST look out for those moves. Fox's U-Smash and U-Air are his most dangerous moves in this MU, and it affects us quite a bit.

U-Smash is lightning fast, and he can use the jab combo (even if it is inconsistent) to score an early kill at around the 80s, which is very significant in his case.

The big move on the block is easily his U-Air, however. This move prevents us from
going high into the air, since Fox can quickly come in and nail us for a very early kill, and I mean early. This means we are pretty grounded overall, and Kirby can only go so high before he gets plucked in the air.

There is a lot going for both sides, and we can both kill each other very easily. We have range, floatiness, and smallness (if that's even a word), while Fox has mobility and tricks under his sleeve, which we can fall for.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Over at the Fox boards, we're also re-discussing Kirby with the patch buffing his damage % output. <= Click here to discuss there.

I don't think the Kirby MU changed that much. Fox can still run away and apply pressure on Kirby with lasers, while Kirby has his crouch stance that nullifies lasers. This means the matchup can become a stalemate, since no characters have any safe approaches against each other and neither has something to force an approach.

Fox's movement > Kirby's movement. Fox is fast, so if Kirby gets the advantage, he can easily catch up to him. That said, like I stated above, none of our approach options are really safe against him because Kirby's tilts do a good job of stopping and clipping us.

If Fox gets the lead and runs away though, then this is gonna be a really bad time for Kirby. We have all the movement we need to outspeed Kirby and play lame if we so wish. I've faced many Kirby's where I've gotten the lead and then just ran away, moving from one side to another using SH Illusions (which hit a crouching Kirby, btw) or running under him when he takes to the skies. It's lame, I know, but Fox has the movement to "circle camp" Kirby in a way. It's not a braindead strategy, you are capable of reading our movement options and catching our attempt to run away when we're cornered by you.

Imo, this is an annoying matchup for both characters, it can be a stalemate of just running away (fox) and ducking under attacks (kirby). Neither character has any incentive to approach each other nor something to force the other to approach (unless Kirby copies lasers, then we have to approach for sure).

We are doomed when we're offstage, more-so with Kirby I feel since his b-air and n-air are meaty enough to gimp our side-B and his aerial presence is scary offstage.

Moves to watch out for when Fox is approaching are his D-air (unsafe if whiffed, but the multiple hitboxes can frame-trap airdodges and the final landing hit can lead into a dash-attack or grab at low %), N-air (a fast move with a long-lasting hitbox to interrupt anything in the air), F-tilt, and B-air (auto-cancels in a SH). When Kirby is in the air, definetely be on the lookout for U-air and B-air, U-air can be autocancelled in SH as well or by full jumping U-air -> landing on a platform. Fox can apply a lot of pressure like this (unless he screws the lag cancel). That said, stone, your D-air, and a spaced N-air will swat Fox out of the skies if he gets greedy with following you up in the air.

Moves to watch out when Fox is on the defensive are U-tilt (works just like your U-tilt, does the same thing to you as your U-tilt does to us), F-tilt (very fast move, angled down will hit crouching Kirbys), and N-air.

Imo, I feel it's a slight advantage for Fox, if anything because we're simply faster and can catch up to Kirby.
55:45 is my ratio, but I can see it being even with all the tools Kirby has to stop our approaches. If Fox runs away though... that can be a very bad time for Kirby.

 

[Togii]

Good discussion, guys.

I've updated the main post so it's up-to-date, so please go give it another quick read, as a few things have changed. I've also added a new StrawPoll in order to determine next week's matchups (based on who most players agree are some of the best characters in a custom moves metagame); top two will be discussed.

Also, I'm gonna have to ask everyone to try to stick to the discussion guidelines in the main post, as I want to have a "Matchup Summary" for each character and it's a lot easier for me to compile everything if it's organized. Thanks.

I should be posting my Fox writeup either tonight sometime or tomorrow afternoon.

 

[Kooby]

I thought this'll never get updated.
Anyways, for the Matchups...
For Fox :

Pros:
Kirby can crouch under his lasers, which makes Fox almost unable to force Kirby's approach with it.
Pretty sure Kirby can crouch his side smash, dash attack, side tilt and others.
Using the copy ability will give Kirby another projectile to use.
Fox is a fast faller, which can make Kirby have a long Up-tilt string on him.
Fox's fast falling can make Kirby combo him easier, specially since Kirby is floaty.
Kirby's Dair can meteor smash Fox, and Fox completely lacks any meteor smash (I think).
Kirby can Final Cutter meteor Fox if he tries to recover with illusion.

Cons:
Fox's smashes are really strong, and Kirby si very light, which can potentially cause early stock loss.
Fox's blaster is weak, which makes the copy ability very situational,
Fox is really fast, outrunning Kirby, which makes Kirby have a hard time retreating on ground.
Despite beign a fast faller, Fox has an impressive recovery, beign able to use his Fox Illusion and then Fire Fox, or wall jumping back on stage.
Kirby's floatiness can make him vulnerable to Fox's Up air, which is very strong and can KO Kirby quickly.

I'd say it's 60:40 , although Fox can KO Kirby quickly, Kirby can combo Fox a lot, racking up a lot of damage, eventually reaching into a smash attack and kill Fox.


Fo Pikachu :

Pros:
Kirby can get Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, which gives him an useful projectile that can potentially be used for Edge guarding.
Kirby can crouch Pikachu's Thunder Jolt with good timing.
Pikachu can get hit by a fully charged Hammer Flip while he's using Quick Attack if done with good timing.
Kirby is not vulnerable to Down-throw -> Thunder
Pikachu is relaly light, making him easy to kill with either Kirby's Smash attacks, Hammer Flip, or Up-Throw/Back-Throw (Up-throw can kill at 170% on an Omega Stage with no rage and no DI, Back-Throw can kill at 140% at the edge of an Omega Stage with no Rage and no DI).
Kirby is not so vulnerable to Pikachu Up-Tilt strings due to his floatiness, meanwhile Pikachu seems to be vulnerable to Kirby's.
Pikachu's back air cannot kill as early as most back air, meanwhile Kirby's can.

Cons:
Kirby is really vulnerable to Up-Throw -> Thunder, specially since Kirby is really light and can get killed by it quickly.
Pikachu can combo Kirby really easily with his aerials, specially Forward air.
Pikachu's Thunder Jolt can Edge guard Kirby easily if the stage is not a floating platform (i.e. Willy's Castle, Omega Pac-Land etc.), which can make him waste his jumps, and lose all of his horizontal recovery, only staying with his Upper Cutter, which doesn't have much reach, and cna only snap on the ledge if facing it.
Pikachu has an impressive recovery, both horizontally, and vertically, attempting to gimp can potentially aid him unless meteor smashed into the lower blast line.
Thunder Jolt can only be crouched by Kirby if he crouches on the middle of the arc it makes, aswell as Pikachu can quickly go and attack Kirby as he's crouching.
Pikachu's Side-Smash is disjoined, which can punish Kirby approach (Not like Kirby has any viable approach options...)
Every of Pikachu's aerials (except Up Aerial) is multihit, with Forward Aerial probably killing.
Both Kirby and Pikachu are the same size, not giving either an advantage.

I'd say it's 45:55 , despite Kirby's comboing ability, Pikachu has greater comboing, however, most of Pikachu's KO moves are really punishable, while Kirby's aren't mostly.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I thought this'll never get updated.
Anyways, for the Matchups...
For Fox :

Pros:
Kirby can crouch under his lasers, which makes Fox almost unable to force Kirby's approach with it.
Pretty sure Kirby can crouch his side smash, dash attack, side tilt and others.
Using the copy ability will give Kirby another projectile to use.
Fox is a fast faller, which can make Kirby have a long Up-tilt string on him.
Fox's fast falling can make Kirby combo him easier, specially since Kirby is floaty.
Kirby's Dair can meteor smash Fox, and Fox completely lacks any meteor smash (I think).
Kirby can Final Cutter meteor Fox if he tries to recover with illusion.

Cons:
Fox's smashes are really strong, and Kirby si very light, which can potentially cause early stock loss.
Fox's blaster is weak, which makes the copy ability very situational,
Fox is really fast, outrunning Kirby, which makes Kirby have a hard time retreating on ground.
Despite beign a fast faller, Fox has an impressive recovery, beign able to use his Fox Illusion and then Fire Fox, or wall jumping back on stage.
Kirby's floatiness can make him vulnerable to Fox's Up air, which is very strong and can KO Kirby quickly.

I'd say it's 60:40 , although Fox can KO Kirby quickly, Kirby can combo Fox a lot, racking up a lot of damage, eventually reaching into a smash attack and kill Fox.


Fo Pikachu :

Pros:
Kirby can get Pikachu's Thunder Jolt, which gives him an useful projectile that can potentially be used for Edge guarding.
Kirby can crouch Pikachu's Thunder Jolt with good timing.
Pikachu can get hit by a fully charged Hammer Flip while he's using Quick Attack if done with good timing.
Kirby is not vulnerable to Down-throw -> Thunder
Pikachu is relaly light, making him easy to kill with either Kirby's Smash attacks, Hammer Flip, or Up-Throw/Back-Throw (Up-throw can kill at 170% on an Omega Stage with no rage and no DI, Back-Throw can kill at 140% at the edge of an Omega Stage with no Rage and no DI).
Kirby is not so vulnerable to Pikachu Up-Tilt strings due to his floatiness, meanwhile Pikachu seems to be vulnerable to Kirby's.
Pikachu's back air cannot kill as early as most back air, meanwhile Kirby's can.

Cons:
Kirby is really vulnerable to Up-Throw -> Thunder, specially since Kirby is really light and can get killed by it quickly.
Pikachu can combo Kirby really easily with his aerials, specially Forward air.
Pikachu's Thunder Jolt can Edge guard Kirby easily if the stage is not a floating platform (i.e. Willy's Castle, Omega Pac-Land etc.), which can make him waste his jumps, and lose all of his horizontal recovery, only staying with his Upper Cutter, which doesn't have much reach, and cna only snap on the ledge if facing it.
Pikachu has an impressive recovery, both horizontally, and vertically, attempting to gimp can potentially aid him unless meteor smashed into the lower blast line.
Thunder Jolt can only be crouched by Kirby if he crouches on the middle of the arc it makes, aswell as Pikachu can quickly go and attack Kirby as he's crouching.
Pikachu's Side-Smash is disjoined, which can punish Kirby approach (Not like Kirby has any viable approach options...)
Every of Pikachu's aerials (except Up Aerial) is multihit, with Forward Aerial probably killing.
Both Kirby and Pikachu are the same size, not giving either an advantage.

I'd say it's 45:55 , despite Kirby's comboing ability, Pikachu has greater comboing, however, most of Pikachu's KO moves are really punishable, while Kirby's aren't mostly.

Mainly because Pika generally has more options and mobility then kirby is what gives him the upper hand, but yea its nothing much worse then that.
Im almost positive only Pikas Bair and Fairare multihit

 

[Kooby]

Mainly because Pika generally has more options and mobility then kirby is what gives him the upper hand, but yea its nothing much worse then that.
Im almost positive only Pikas Bair and Fairare multihit

Pretty sure his Dair and Nair are too

 

[Sparky15]

Pretty sure his Dair and Nair are too

Well technically, d-air is multi-hit if you count the hitbox during the landing lag. I'm pretty sure n-air isn't, however.

 

[Togii]

Alright, here's my Fox write-up.

Pros - We can kill him pretty easily if we land the hit; he's really light and easily gimpable. He's also a fast-faller, so we can combo him super easily.

Cons - He's strong. He can KO us just about as soon as we can KO him, minus the gimps. He's also much, MUCH faster than Kirby and can get in with dash attack/nair/pivot ftilt/dash grab very quickly and then escape before Kirby has too much of a chance to retaliate.

Copy Ability - Meh. It can rack up some extra percent, but if the Fox is smart, he'll use his reflector or just punish you on the endlag of the move.

Custom Moves - 3231. Meteor stone is pretty much worthless in this matchup, as dair gimps Fire Fox way better. Ice breath is useless, but Inhale can be taken if you like it more than Jumping Inhale. Hammer Bash is the only viable choice against Fox imo, as is Upper Cutter.

Stage Picks - Fox tends to KO off the top, so I'd recommend stages with high ceilings and close side blast zones. Also, being above Fox is terrifying, so platforms are risky, but not necessarily a terrible idea. Duck Hunt is a good choice, as is Final Destination.

Additional Notes - I'm honestly very surprised how you guys are rating this matchup in Kirby's favor. Fox is stronger, faster, and heavier than Kirby, and he can combo us almost as much as we can combo him. However, if the combo goes into the air, we can't whiff any of our moves; Fox will fall MUCH faster than us if we whiff an air combo, and punish with uair or usmash, depending on the height. As far as I can tell from my experience in the matchup, the only things Kirby has going for him are a nice, easy 40% off of utilts, and the fact that Fox is basically dead if he ever uses Fire Fox offstage. If the Fox player is smart, he will camp after getting the percent lead, and there honestly isn't much Kirby can do about it. Fox can run circles around Kirby while still going in for the occasional grab or nair to still pressure you. TL;DR - Kirby has to take way more risks in this matchup than Fox. Because of this, Fox can play relatively safe to make the matchup very difficult to play for his opponent.

Overall Score - Gotta go with 30:70. I'm not sure what Foxes you guys are playing, but his speed and power are really overwhelming in this matchup and he shouldn't lose unless he's playing recklessly or the players' skill levels are uneven.

 

[Togii]

Without further ado, we're starting discussion on Sheik and Luigi .

Go ahead and finish up your discussion on Pikachu and Fox if needed, but try to discuss Sheik and Luigi from here on out, try to stick to the format, and vote in the StrawPoll to decide who we will discuss next!

 

[Agent Emerald]

Aww yes. Team Dthrow.

Shiek, despite generally being considered the best character in the game at the moment, is actually a not so bad matchup for Kirby. Sure Kirby will have a slightly harder time escaping combos because its Sheik, but Kirby can also give Sheik a hard time with his duck invalidating her ground needles and (maybe) grabs.

Sheik's killing issues aren't as big as they are in other matchups, but they are are still present, meaning Kirby can last a good while in this matchup unless Sheik can pull a surprise Bouncing fish. Gimping is pretty much out of the question for Sheik, but stage spiking with bair and nair sure aren't.

Honestly, the biggest problem in this matchup (at least to me) is the bomb. With customs, Sheik has a bomb that can set up into Sweetspotted Usmash. Watch out for that.

Overall, I feel this is 55:45 us. Sheik has some big stuff, but Kirby can pull some bigger things off with Shiek.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Alright, here's my Fox write-up.

Pros - We can kill him pretty easily if we land the hit; he's really light and easily gimpable. He's also a fast-faller, so we can combo him super easily.

Cons - He's strong. He can KO us just about as soon as we can KO him, minus the gimps. He's also much, MUCH faster than Kirby and can get in with dash attack/nair/pivot ftilt/dash grab very quickly and then escape before Kirby has too much of a chance to retaliate.

Copy Ability - Meh. It can rack up some extra percent, but if the Fox is smart, he'll use his reflector or just punish you on the endlag of the move.

Custom Moves - 3231. Meteor stone is pretty much worthless in this matchup, as dair gimps Fire Fox way better. Ice breath is useless, but Inhale can be taken if you like it more than Jumping Inhale. Hammer Bash is the only viable choice against Fox imo, as is Upper Cutter.

Stage Picks - Fox tends to KO off the top, so I'd recommend stages with high ceilings and close side blast zones. Also, being above Fox is terrifying, so platforms are risky, but not necessarily a terrible idea. Duck Hunt is a good choice, as is Final Destination.

Additional Notes - I'm honestly very surprised how you guys are rating this matchup in Kirby's favor. Fox is stronger, faster, and heavier than Kirby, and he can combo us almost as much as we can combo him. However, if the combo goes into the air, we can't whiff any of our moves; Fox will fall MUCH faster than us if we whiff an air combo, and punish with uair or usmash, depending on the height. As far as I can tell from my experience in the matchup, the only things Kirby has going for him are a nice, easy 40% off of utilts, and the fact that Fox is basically dead if he ever uses Fire Fox offstage. If the Fox player is smart, he will camp after getting the percent lead, and there honestly isn't much Kirby can do about it. Fox can run circles around Kirby while still going in for the occasional grab or nair to still pressure you. TL;DR - Kirby has to take way more risks in this matchup than Fox. Because of this, Fox can play relatively safe to make the matchup very difficult to play for his opponent.

Overall Score - Gotta go with 30:70. I'm not sure what Foxes you guys are playing, but his speed and power are really overwhelming in this matchup and he shouldn't lose unless he's playing recklessly or the players' skill levels are uneven.

...........um.........sure go with that overall score.......it's opinions after all -_-

 

[Togii]

...........um.........sure go with that overall score.......it's opinions after all -_-

Note that that's my personal score, not the final score for the matchup thread. I haven't compiled everyone's input into a final score yet. And yes, I do believe it's that bad of a matchup for Kirby. I would actually put Fox in Kirby's worst 5 matchups: Yoshi, Diddy, Fox, Marth, and Luigi. I will update with specifics later, when I have the game in front of me to test some things.

 

[Altair357]

vs.

Pros: We got combos, we duck needles, we're hard to edgeguard, we're small, Sheik is light and usually has a hard time killing us, Upper Cutter in general.

Cons: She has combos, too. Spaced fairs can be difficult to punish on shield. Vanish kills pretty well. She's fast and we're not. Bouncing Fish seems pretty good here.

Copy Ability: It's great because she can't duck it, giving us a better neutral game.

Custom Moves: 3232 is likely the best here. Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter are self-explanatory. Hammer Bash is likely the only viable side special, as Hammer Flip is susceptible to needles and Giant Hammer's ground movement is too slow to hit Sheik without a hard read on a ledge option. At least Hammer Bash offers a nice punish option for every now and then. Meteor Stone will probably not work since Sheik becomes invincible when she uses Vanish, and Bouncing Fish makes landing it even more complicated. Grounding Stone offers a way to escape juggles, which is something. Additionally, if we somehow get a hard read and connect with it on stage, that's a big punish in our favor.

Stage Picks: FD is good because her camping and approach are weakened with no platforms. Kirby doesn't have an approach or a camp, so he doesn't care. Delfino gives our up throw a huge boon thanks to its high platforms and low ceilings. Upper Cutter, of course, works great on Delfino. I'm likely to ban Halberd and Town & City because I prefer other stages, but I'm not really sure what the ideal bans against her are. Smashville is always a suitable choice.

Additional Notes: Kirby seems to have an answer to much of what Sheik is good at, and vice versa. I can't think of any killing blows to the matchup for either character. Just play comfortably, copy when you can, and don't get hit by Vanish or Bouncing Fish. Crouching is important and you can stuff dashes with aerials or tilts, or maybe even a forward smash if you're confident. Get as many up tilt, up air, and upper cutter combos as you reasonably can, as they're fantastic for damage and upper cutter can kill. Get out of juggles with grounding stone,

Overall Score: I'm going to leave this at a clean 50:50. Neither character has an outright advantage as far as I can tell, though I could see it going 45:55.

-

Alright, here's my Fox write-up.

Pros - We can kill him pretty easily if we land the hit; he's really light and easily gimpable. He's also a fast-faller, so we can combo him super easily.

Cons - He's strong. He can KO us just about as soon as we can KO him, minus the gimps. He's also much, MUCH faster than Kirby and can get in with dash attack/nair/pivot ftilt/dash grab very quickly and then escape before Kirby has too much of a chance to retaliate.

Copy Ability - Meh. It can rack up some extra percent, but if the Fox is smart, he'll use his reflector or just punish you on the endlag of the move.

Custom Moves - 3231. Meteor stone is pretty much worthless in this matchup, as dair gimps Fire Fox way better. Ice breath is useless, but Inhale can be taken if you like it more than Jumping Inhale. Hammer Bash is the only viable choice against Fox imo, as is Upper Cutter.

Stage Picks - Fox tends to KO off the top, so I'd recommend stages with high ceilings and close side blast zones. Also, being above Fox is terrifying, so platforms are risky, but not necessarily a terrible idea. Duck Hunt is a good choice, as is Final Destination.

Additional Notes - I'm honestly very surprised how you guys are rating this matchup in Kirby's favor. Fox is stronger, faster, and heavier than Kirby, and he can combo us almost as much as we can combo him. However, if the combo goes into the air, we can't whiff any of our moves; Fox will fall MUCH faster than us if we whiff an air combo, and punish with uair or usmash, depending on the height. As far as I can tell from my experience in the matchup, the only things Kirby has going for him are a nice, easy 40% off of utilts, and the fact that Fox is basically dead if he ever uses Fire Fox offstage. If the Fox player is smart, he will camp after getting the percent lead, and there honestly isn't much Kirby can do about it. Fox can run circles around Kirby while still going in for the occasional grab or nair to still pressure you. TL;DR - Kirby has to take way more risks in this matchup than Fox. Because of this, Fox can play relatively safe to make the matchup very difficult to play for his opponent.

Overall Score - Gotta go with 30:70. I'm not sure what Foxes you guys are playing, but his speed and power are really overwhelming in this matchup and he shouldn't lose unless he's playing recklessly or the players' skill levels are uneven.

There's no reason to whiff an air combo aside from mere inexperience, which shouldn't factor into matchup discussion. Up air, back air, and upper cutter are the main moves I can think of for aerial combos on Fox, and the first two are essentially unpunishable on whiff while the latter should only be used as a true combo, airdodge bait, or the like. Also, we do have our jumps and airdodges for when we're above Fox.

Obviously, our combos are far superior due to Fox being a fast faller and Kirby being a floaty. I don't think I've even been hit by Fox's dthrow to aerial above 0%, which is basic stuff I feel. Fox does have his unduckable custom laser here, which gives him a better chance in the matchup as we can no longer force him to approach by pressing downwards. Still, this is avoidable, and Kirby does have very nice defensive options for dealing with Fox's approach.

Up tilt to upper cutter kills Fox at about 98% (sweetspotted up tilt) and 107% (soursotted up tilt). Upper Cutter in general should make edgeguarding very low-effort for us, so that's something to keep in mind. I'm perplexed by your immediate dismissal of Meteor Stone, as it's a very easy way to catch Fox and kill him at 10%. What do you think regular Stone does better in this matchup?

You're getting outplayed rather hard if you let him gain a lead and then fail to land many hits for the rest of the match, especially with upper cutter. How, specifically, do you think Fox avoids Kirby entirely on any legal stage?

Sorry for rambling, I just don't see the merit in most of these points in Fox's favor.

 

[kikichang]

vs.

Pros: We got combos, we duck needles, we're hard to edgeguard, we're small, Sheik is light and usually has a hard time killing us, Upper Cutter in general.

Cons: She has combos, too. Spaced fairs can be difficult to punish on shield. Vanish kills pretty well. She's fast and we're not. Bouncing Fish seems pretty good here.

Copy Ability: It's great because she can't duck it, giving us a better neutral game.

Custom Moves: 3232 is likely the best here. Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter are self-explanatory. Hammer Bash is likely the only viable side special, as Hammer Flip is susceptible to needles and Giant Hammer's ground movement is too slow to hit Sheik without a hard read on a ledge option. At least Hammer Bash offers a nice punish option for every now and then. Meteor Stone will probably not work since Sheik becomes invincible when she uses Vanish, and Bouncing Fish makes landing it even more complicated. Grounding Stone offers a way to escape juggles, which is something. Additionally, if we somehow get a hard read and connect with it on stage, that's a big punish in our favor.

Stage Picks: FD is good because her camping and approach are weakened with no platforms. Kirby doesn't have an approach or a camp, so he doesn't care. Delfino gives our up throw a huge boon thanks to its high platforms and low ceilings. Upper Cutter, of course, works great on Delfino. I'm likely to ban Halberd and Town & City because I prefer other stages, but I'm not really sure what the ideal bans against her are. Smashville is always a suitable choice.

Additional Notes: Kirby seems to have an answer to much of what Sheik is good at, and vice versa. I can't think of any killing blows to the matchup for either character. Just play comfortably, copy when you can, and don't get hit by Vanish or Bouncing Fish. Crouching is important and you can stuff dashes with aerials or tilts, or maybe even a forward smash if you're confident. Get as many up tilt, up air, and upper cutter combos as you reasonably can, as they're fantastic for damage and upper cutter can kill. Get out of juggles with grounding stone,

Overall Score: I'm going to leave this at a clean 50:50. Neither character has an outright advantage as far as I can tell, though I could see it going 45:55.

-



There's no reason to whiff an air combo aside from mere inexperience, which shouldn't factor into matchup discussion. Up air, back air, and upper cutter are the main moves I can think of for aerial combos on Fox, and the first two are essentially unpunishable on whiff while the latter should only be used as a true combo, airdodge bait, or the like. Also, we do have our jumps and airdodges for when we're above Fox.

Obviously, our combos are far superior due to Fox being a fast faller and Kirby being a floaty. I don't think I've even been hit by Fox's dthrow to aerial above 0%, which is basic stuff I feel. Fox does have his unduckable custom laser here, which gives him a better chance in the matchup as we can no longer force him to approach by pressing downwards. Still, this is avoidable, and Kirby does have very nice defensive options for dealing with Fox's approach.

Up tilt to upper cutter kills Fox at about 98% (sweetspotted up tilt) and 107% (soursotted up tilt). Upper Cutter in general should make edgeguarding very low-effort for us, so that's something to keep in mind. I'm perplexed by your immediate dismissal of Meteor Stone, as it's a very easy way to catch Fox and kill him at 10%. What do you think regular Stone does better in this matchup?

You're getting outplayed rather hard if you let him gain a lead and then fail to land many hits for the rest of the match, especially with upper cutter. How, specifically, do you think Fox avoids Kirby entirely on any legal stage?

Sorry for rambling, I just don't see the merit in most of these points in Fox's favor.

You're wrong (´･ω･`)

 

[Raiquis]

vs.

Pros: We got combos, we duck needles, we're hard to edgeguard, we're small, Sheik is light and usually has a hard time killing us, Upper Cutter in general.

Cons: She has combos, too. Spaced fairs can be difficult to punish on shield. Vanish kills pretty well. She's fast and we're not. Bouncing Fish seems pretty good here.

Copy Ability: It's great because she can't duck it, giving us a better neutral game.

Custom Moves: 3232 is likely the best here. Jumping Inhale and Upper Cutter are self-explanatory. Hammer Bash is likely the only viable side special, as Hammer Flip is susceptible to needles and Giant Hammer's ground movement is too slow to hit Sheik without a hard read on a ledge option. At least Hammer Bash offers a nice punish option for every now and then. Meteor Stone will probably not work since Sheik becomes invincible when she uses Vanish, and Bouncing Fish makes landing it even more complicated. Grounding Stone offers a way to escape juggles, which is something. Additionally, if we somehow get a hard read and connect with it on stage, that's a big punish in our favor.

Stage Picks: FD is good because her camping and approach are weakened with no platforms. Kirby doesn't have an approach or a camp, so he doesn't care. Delfino gives our up throw a huge boon thanks to its high platforms and low ceilings. Upper Cutter, of course, works great on Delfino. I'm likely to ban Halberd and Town & City because I prefer other stages, but I'm not really sure what the ideal bans against her are. Smashville is always a suitable choice.

Additional Notes: Kirby seems to have an answer to much of what Sheik is good at, and vice versa. I can't think of any killing blows to the matchup for either character. Just play comfortably, copy when you can, and don't get hit by Vanish or Bouncing Fish. Crouching is important and you can stuff dashes with aerials or tilts, or maybe even a forward smash if you're confident. Get as many up tilt, up air, and upper cutter combos as you reasonably can, as they're fantastic for damage and upper cutter can kill. Get out of juggles with grounding stone,

Overall Score: I'm going to leave this at a clean 50:50. Neither character has an outright advantage as far as I can tell, though I could see it going 45:55.

-



There's no reason to whiff an air combo aside from mere inexperience, which shouldn't factor into matchup discussion. Up air, back air, and upper cutter are the main moves I can think of for aerial combos on Fox, and the first two are essentially unpunishable on whiff while the latter should only be used as a true combo, airdodge bait, or the like. Also, we do have our jumps and airdodges for when we're above Fox.

Obviously, our combos are far superior due to Fox being a fast faller and Kirby being a floaty. I don't think I've even been hit by Fox's dthrow to aerial above 0%, which is basic stuff I feel. Fox does have his unduckable custom laser here, which gives him a better chance in the matchup as we can no longer force him to approach by pressing downwards. Still, this is avoidable, and Kirby does have very nice defensive options for dealing with Fox's approach.

Up tilt to upper cutter kills Fox at about 98% (sweetspotted up tilt) and 107% (soursotted up tilt). Upper Cutter in general should make edgeguarding very low-effort for us, so that's something to keep in mind. I'm perplexed by your immediate dismissal of Meteor Stone, as it's a very easy way to catch Fox and kill him at 10%. What do you think regular Stone does better in this matchup?

You're getting outplayed rather hard if you let him gain a lead and then fail to land many hits for the rest of the match, especially with upper cutter. How, specifically, do you think Fox avoids Kirby entirely on any legal stage?

Sorry for rambling, I just don't see the merit in most of these points in Fox's favor.

You're wrong (´･ω･`)

 

[Togii]

Also, we do have our jumps and airdodges for when we're above Fox.

So does every other character. Fox can practically punish airdodges on reaction with how quickly he jumps and falls.

I don't think I've even been hit by Fox's dthrow to aerial above 0%, which is basic stuff I feel.

Fox has other combos besides dthrow fair.. this makes me think you've never played against a good Fox. Dash attack, utilt, utilt bair/nair is a basic combo of Fox's. He can also sourspot nair, pivot ftilt reset, usmash as a kill combo. Honestly, Fox has some of the best custom combos in the game; his nair links into almost any of his quick moves, and his dash attack sets up aerials really well.

Upper Cutter in general should make edgeguarding very low-effort for us, so that's something to keep in mind. I'm perplexed by your immediate dismissal of Meteor Stone, as it's a very easy way to catch Fox and kill him at 10%. What do you think regular Stone does better in this matchup?

Regular stone kills better on stage. For offstage, dair exists, and is better in almost every single way if Fox is forced to use Fire Fox. It comes out just as quick, doesn't risk a suicide, kills disgustingly well offstage on Fox, and frees up your down b for one of the better on-stage variants. I'm not sure why you mention Upper Cutter as the prime edge guarding tool when using dair in response to Fire Fox is a kill 100% of the time if you land it; Upper Cutter can stage spike IF he misses the tech, which he will have plenty of time to prepare for (again something that makes me think you don't play against good Fox mains; Fire Fox takes forever and no good Fox will miss the tech from Upper Cutter's stage spike).

How, specifically, do you think Fox avoids Kirby entirely on any legal stage?

Pretty much by running away, shielding his attacks, and throwing out dash attack, grabs, or nair when it's safe. It probably won't go to time, but Fox can play REALLY campy if he wants to against slower characters on FD, SV, T&C, DH, Halberd's deck, CS transformation 2, and on DP's transformations. Lylat and Battlefield make the strategy more difficult to utilize.

This matchup is 40:60 if I'm being really optimistic, but is more likely 30:70 or 35:65. This is my opinion and my experience playing against high-level Fox mains in and out of a tournament setting. Bad Fox's are really, really easy for Kirby because they tend to not utilize his kit efficiently and play the matchup super rushdown, which results in Kirby comboing Fox to oblivion and then destroying him offstage. It's definitely a matchup that changes based on the skill levels of the players involved, and I think that Fox has a distinct advantage at high level play, which is the level of play these matchup ratios will ideally reflect.

This is the last post I'll make about Fox, since it's no longer his week. Anything I didn't address from your post is, in my opinion, a valid criticism of my analysis.

 

[RedNova]

This matchup is 40:60 if I'm being really optimistic, but is more likely 30:70 or 35:65. This is my opinion and my experience playing against high-level Fox mains in and out of a tournament setting. Bad Fox's are really, really easy for Kirby because they tend to not utilize his kit efficiently and play the matchup super rushdown, which results in Kirby comboing Fox to oblivion and then destroying him offstage. It's definitely a matchup that changes based on the skill levels of the players involved, and I think that Fox has a distinct advantage at high level play, which is the level of play these matchup ratios will ideally reflect.

I think thats a problem we usually have. I'm sure that there are people like myself that do not have a tournament scene nearby, or if they have one, it's pretty small. There's a new scene starting our in my area, but before that I did not have a place where I can test the matchups besides For Glory or just pure analysis.

We need more people that actually attend tournaments and provide a good, in-depth description of every matchup here, so we can compare.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox has other combos besides dthrow fair.. this makes me think you've never played against a good Fox. Dash attack, utilt, utilt bair/nair is a basic combo of Fox's. He can also sourspot nair, pivot ftilt reset, usmash as a kill combo. Honestly, Fox has some of the best custom combos in the game; his nair links into almost any of his quick moves, and his dash attack sets up aerials really well.

This, lol utilt to uair kills Kirby at like 85% from the middle of FD, it's really easy to link together too.

The dthrow to aerial stuff isn't guaranteed on a lot of other characters either, Yoshi, Diddy, Ness, and lots others. Dthrow to aerial isn't a thing anymore with Fox against these chars because everyone learned how to hold away, the only reason these combos would work is because:
a) you didn't di properly or didn't air dodge and let Fox catch you
b) you are playing a fat character and are at low %

Cheers, gl with the discussion vs Sheik

 

[Ffamran]

Hi, little puffsters, the Falco boards started their ongoing Kirby matchup discussion and would love input from the lovable, squishy puffball who likes to eat a lot of stuff... Don't eat all of our bread. Link: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-41-kirby-starsailors.404451/.

And if you want to play or learn more about the MU against Falco, then check here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Kooby]

For Sheik:

Pros:
- Kirby can duck under Sheik's needles, maybe he can crouch under he grab too (meanwhile he's not in animation).
- The Needles can be a really useful copy ability, as it gives Kirby a much more longer ranged prohectile(s) than his Final Cutter's.
- Kirby can combo Sheik, and since Sheik is a light-weight, aswell as beign rather tall, she can be killed sorta early by a smash attack, and maybe back throw and up throw.
- Kirby is short, so Sheik will have some trouble comboing Kirby.
- Sheik's D-throw -> U-air can be DI'd easily.

Cons:
- Despite Sheik beign a light-weight, she has some strong finishers, her Up smash beign a really strong one if sweetspotted.
- If i heard correctly, Gravity Grenade (Cusotm 2 for Burst Grenade) can push Kirby into a sweetspotted Up smash, which can be really deadly at high percentage.
- Burst Grenade's windboxes can screw up an aerial, and leave Kirby in a punishable position if he doesn't get hit by the explosion.
- Sheik is not vulnerable to Kirby's B-throw -> B-air.
- Sheik has really strong aerials, and her F-air can edge-guard Kirby really easily due to his low Falling Speed.

Final Score: 45:55 , Kirby can crouch a lot of Sheik's attacks, but one single mistake could probably end Kirby.

Too lazy to do Luigi...

 

[meda9871]

It's been WAY too long since I've been here but luckily it's in the matchups that I continually face on a near daily basis.

First off

+Obviously crouching needles, because it's Kirby. The same goes with her grab, but the timing on it is not as guaranteed if she's running. The same thing goes for Kirby's overall size of not being the easiest target to hit.
+A useful copy ability as since Kirby does not have the safest options toward edgeguarding Shiek, getting needles allows him an easy punish for Bouncing Fish and if possible, Vanish.
+Combos, Shiek is just at the right weight that she can't escape most of Kirby's bread and butter combos.

-Kirby should NEVER be on platforms when Shiek is beneath it as nearly every stage with platforms Shiek can hit with a sweet spotted U Smash, losing an escape option.
-Combos, Kirby is just the right weight for nearly all of Shiek's combos, especially F Air strings.
-Edgeguarding is easy for Shiek due to Kirby's low air speed, making it easy for her to counter nearly every vantage point with her speed and needles

Customs: 3231 or 3232 as Jumping Inhale provides Kirby yet another way to recover against Shiek and can sometimes catch her out of a Bouncing Fish. Hammer Bash allows for a less predicable recovery as well as it stalls in the air and can also be used to punish a missed Bouncing Fish much more quickly. Upper Cutter really needs no explanation, it's rare to hit Shiek with the blasts of the other two anyway. All variations of Stone except Meteor are useful as Stone can take a Bouncing Fish and allows Kirby a safer position to follow up while Grounding Stone allows Kirby an escape tool for Shiek's combos. Be vary of Gravity Grenade as being forced to come towards Shiek can lead into an U Smash.

Overall 50:50 Even though Kirby seems to quickly die to everything Shiek does, a careful Kirby can easily bring it around as long as they don't lose their way.

Now

+Kirby has probably one of the easiest times edgeguarding Luigi even after the buffs to his recovery due to his low air speed. At low percents, Kirby can take a missle and force Luigi to recover lower and can ofter D Air him out of his Up B.
+Luigi loves the air when he wants to be there, but Kirby can easily force him out of his comfort zone and has moves that give enough range to avoid a dropping N Air.
+Kirby is floaty, so Luigi quickly starts to lose his combos as the damage starts to add up as well as N Air to prevent Jab followups.
+Kirby can Jab fireballs and can also use them for his own grab punishes.

-Kirby is floaty, so Luigi has a much easier time once Kirby is at kill percent, including a near guaranteed D Throw to B Air
-Luigi has multiple options that lead up into regrabs after D Throw, including F Air strings and D Air.
-Kirby loses most of his setups due to Luigi's low traction, making it near impossible to punish after a trip or shield knockback
-Kirby has very few safe ground approach options, which can allow Luigi to just wait in shield for Kirby to make a mistake

Customs: 323! as any variation of Stone can help with edgeguarding and escaping combos with Meteor Stone being the best as it is guaranteed to ruin a Luigi that is recovering low while holding their second jump. Jumping Inhale allows Kirby to quickly get close to Luigi whether shielding or recovering with Missle. Hammer Bash, same as with Shiek, allows Kirby to stall in the air and make his recovery less predictable, but can be used to punish a Luigi after jumping from the ledge in order to push them back and give Kirby a safer entry back on stage. Upper Cutter can also allow Kirby to escape certain grab followups when Luigi gets too close. Iceball should be the biggest Luigi custom to worry about for it can ruin Kirby's recovery with it now being possible to have 2 on stage as well as making certain options dangerous to recover with and is also why Upper Cutter remains Kirby's best Up B in the matchup.

Overall: 55:45 Kirby can quickly get rid of Luigi and the same goes the other way but with Kirby being to more easily gimp Luigi pushes him ahead in my opinion.

Also, short opinion since I missed it but vs in my opinion is 45:55 and vs is 60:40

 

[Togii]

Main post has been updated for week 5; ZSS is the new matchup to discuss, and I'm not phasing Luigi out since we only have one analysis on him.

Sorry I haven't been updating the main post, I've been really busy with work and moving. I have some free time tonight, so I will try to finalize the Sheik, Fox, and Pikachu matchups in addition to completing my Sheik writeup that I planned to do last week.

 

[Agent Emerald]

Luigi is really weird. He's super slippery and can escape combos like a lightweight, but has insane dthrow combo potential. Thankfully, we can duck under fireball and grab.

Luigi is only in the air when he wants to be. If we get him in the air, he'll try to nair or Cyclone his way back to the ground. Cyclone can be easily punished, but nair is a bit funkier in that you have to grab pretty much instantly or you'll be stuck in one of Luigi's many combos.

Luigi really flounders off stage. Despite having so many variable optiopns to recover with his B moves, he can easily be hit out of them (or body blocked in Missle's case). Our goal should be to get Luigi out of his comfort zone and keep him offstage long enough for Cyclone to not ascend.

50:50

 

[Togii]

Alright, Sheik.

Pros:
Sheik falls fast, allowing Kirby to get some great combos on her
Sheik's lack of kill power means that Kirby's weight doesn't come into play nearly as much
Kirby can duck under Sheik's only ranged option, forcing her to approach

Cons:
Kirby's slow fall speed makes it somewhat hard to land.
Sheik's frame data and pressure is godlike

Copy Ability:
Yes. Get it. It's amazing. This is one of the custom moves that I practice with in training mode because it can decide the matchup vs some Sheiks if you get a good rhythm with charge, throw, and duck. Also, note that if Sheik takes Penetrating Needles, your needles will outrange hers. Use this to your advantage.

Custom Moves:
Either inhale. Jumping Inhale is more risky but will work more often, Inhale is safer but you need a good read to get it.
Hammer is personal preference. I tend to like Hammer Bash, but will sometimes go Giant Hammer if I win game one, as it's difficult for Sheik to kill off of grabs anyway.
Upper Cutter. Punish Bouncing Fish, fair combos, missed grabs, etc.
Regular Stone. Meteor Stone isn't great vs Sheik's teleport, and Grounding Stone's reduced endlag isn't going to help vs Sheik too much.

Stage Picks:
Honestly, most of Kirby's good stages are great for Sheik too. Pretty much personal preference, but I recommend not going to Battlefield.

Additional Notes:
This is basically a "who can combo who for longer" game. Luckily, Kirby has to rack up way less damage to kill. General strategy is to get Sheik's needles, combo with uair, fair, utilt, whatever, and punish with Upper Cutter. Kirby's smashes kill way earlier than Sheik's, so you should be killing her at lower percents than she's killing you. Honestly, just a skill-based matchup, nobody has too much of an advantage.

Overall Score - 50:50

My ZSS matchup will be up later this week.

 

[Agent Emerald]

When it comes to the next matchup, could I suggest some sleeper hits like Wario, Shulk, Robin, or Jigglypuff (heh)?

 

[Togii]

When it comes to the next matchup, could I suggest some sleeper hits like Wario, Shulk, Robin, or Jigglypuff (heh)?

I would really like to discuss sleepers too, but I think we should stick to top tiers until EVO for a few reasons:

1) Since they're sleepers, not many will have good matchup experience vs them. People might want to discuss them, but won't have the knowledge and experience required.

2) While it's possible that sleeper characters will be prevalent at CEO and EVO, it's much more likely that we'll face high tier threats.

After EVO, matchups will be more request-based. But until then, I think we should discuss the most popular and threatening characters.

 

[Agent Emerald]

I see your point, but we should at least do Donkey Kong sometime soon because the customs scene is thriving and Dongnado is starting to become really prevalent (Or maybe Average Joe is just really active).

 

[RedNova]

I actually have MORE experience with the sleepers, because my only source for the matchups is my sparring partner, and he's so damn good with whatever he plays (or maybe I just get read like a book everytime, idk). He actually plays with Wario and DK, so I would support those choices as well.

 

[meda9871]

Time for the Other M(atchup) with

+Can crouch underneath some of her moves, including the Paralyzer and use it for ourselves
+Her stronger moves have a lot of lag that Kirby can punish easily
+Due to Kirby being floaty, ZSS does not have a lot of combos for characters of this weight

-Though she doesn't have combos, she does have kill moves including Up B followups
-Her faster air and ground speed make it hard to catch up if she ever gets ahead as seen at the first Invitational
-ZSS's moves have larger hitboxes, making all clashes less safe for Kirby

Customs: **3* Kirby can technically go in with any custom set in this matchup as all would do well against ZSS. I recommend not using Normal Inhale or Hammer Flip as they are the hardest to hit of the variations in this matchup. Ice Breath could be used to punish ZSS's weaker recovery and the same goes for Jumping Inhale. Hammer Bash allows more utility and Giant Hammer's armor allows Kirby to walk right through some of her stun moves, including Paralyzer. The Stone variations also depend on what you find is most useful, with easy Stone Canceling being Normal, Setups for laggy moves being Grounding Stone and punishing an obvious recovery or tether being Meteor Stone. ZSS as a character does not have any majorly useful customs so it is rare to find one who uses them. Generally be more weary of Whip Lash as now all the damage is only on the tip which is where good ZSS players always aim to hit, Lateral Kick as it gives ZSS another option for horizontal recovery and Shooting Star Flip Kick, which makes the move more like Mii Brawler's Feint Jump.

Overall: 70:30 Though they still remain great team partners, on a seperate level I feel Kirby wins by a large lead in all except the end game and that alone is the area that gives ZSS room to challenge the puff ball.

EDIT: 60:40 ZSS is able to move a lot better and more fluently than Kirby, as well as throw out safer hitboxes, but Kirby's kill power and overall floatiness makes it easier and sometimes harder to get in or away. Kirby has a VERY slight advantage and my old ranking was due to my experience in the matchup making it easy for me. Also, Kirby can play very annoyingly in this matchup if they know how to perfect crouching.

And I recommend expanding our reach to the original member of the DK crew next because after the epic Xanadu clash of Kong Cyclone and Jumping Inhale, I think now's the best time to cover it.

 

[Kooby]

Alright, time to do these:

Luigi:

Pros:
- Kirby can crouch the Fireball, potentially avoiding one of Luigi's combo starter.
- Kirby can also duck under his grab, which will igve Luigi a bad time trying to get his Easybakes.
- Fireball can be useful as a copy ability, as Kirby can use it to combo like Luigi.
- Luigi is really slippery, and unless the sliding animation can be cancelled, Kirby can punish him while he slide if he tries to turn around after dashing.
- Luigi's recovery is really predictable, with Green Missile beign slow (unless Misfired), and Super Jump Punch not having any horizontal movement.

Cons:
- Luigi's side smash can be deadly, and can be angled down, and combined with the fact the angle won't make it deal less damage, Kirby's crouch is almost useless agaisn't it.
- If Luigi lands a grab, he can repeteadly do a combo Kirby can't escape of easily, that combo being D-throw -> F-air -> F-air.
- Luigi cyclone can be really problematic, the only possible counter to it is Up smash, but will be hard to land, and since Luigi Cyclone can move a lot vertically, Luigi can juggle Kirby and finish off with Luigi cyclone.
- Although hard to land, a sweetspotted Super Jump Punch can be really deadly to Kirby, since it has really high vertical knockback, and Kirby beign floaty, he's really susceptible to the top blast zone.
- Luigi is faster than Kirby.

Overall: 30:70 . Sadly, Luigi is too fast for Kirby, and his combos are really hard to escape, aswell as most of Luigi's attacks having vertical knockback, which Kirby is vulnerable to.

Zero Suit Samus:

Pros:
- Kirby crouches almost everything from ZSS, her dash attack, all her smashes but her down smash, same for tilts, and can crouch under paralyzer, which can make ZSS have a hard time
hitting Kirby.
- Paralyzer is extremely useful as Kirby, giving him chance for a quick followup if hit, and probably start a combo.
- Kirby is small, and ZSS' hitboxes are too, so she will have trouble hitting.

Cons:
- ZSS can followup almost anything with Up-B, beign a really powerful finisher.
- Kirby's floaty behaviour combined with ZSS' fast aerial speed can make Kirby realy vulnerable to juggling.
- ZSS has more grab range than Kirby, which can lead into a D-throw and then Juggle.

Overall: 70:30 . Because of Kirby's crouch, he has a large advantage vs ZSS.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Im not so sure we duck luigis grab.
Even if we duck his fireballs, we have to space with a dtilt or something to avoid getting grabbed, bu depending on our distance he could SH fair or something.
Depending on how luigis like to recover, you can use stone to beat his recovery if they go low, if they use missle, try your best to quickly punish that because his Upb is one of the hardest things to avoid from him(quite a rediculous move if you ask me)

I THINK he only SLIGHTLY outrangs us, but his mobility is worse then ours, so spacing is something we really need to work on,
being on of our most patient MU and considering his grabs, every percent counts.
His traction makes it very difficult to combo him from a dtilt or a SH nair into something like a grab or Fsmash.
It has its ups and downs, we cant combo him much because our combo game, while arguably one of the best in the game still like in brawl, is somewhat slow meaning luigi does have options to easily just use his stupid F3 nair to completely stop us -_-

So yea, mostly this is in luigis favor
Maybe about 40:60