The SSB Poll Lounge: DLC mode engaged

[SmashChu]

Are people really still voting for Skull Kid?

 

[Shorts]

The poll is, and has always been based on what you want, not what you expect / what is confirmed.

So, yeah. I'm sure they are. I find it funny that we have the likes of Ashley, and Skull Kid deconfirmed. Two characters with moderate popularity passed over. We then look at WFT, Rosalina, and Villager. Three characters with smaller fanbases than the prior two before they were confirmed. Next we have the likes of Mewtwo, King K Rool, and Ridley no where to be seen, despite being the most wanted newcomers. ****s kreay. Megaman was on spot, though.

 

[SmashChu]

The poll is, and has always been based on what you want, not what you expect / what is confirmed.

So, yeah. I'm sure they are. I find it funny that we have the likes of Ashley, and Skull Kid deconfirmed. Two characters with moderate popularity passed over. We then look at WFT, Rosalina, and Villager. Three characters with smaller fanbases than the prior two before they were confirmed. Next we have the likes of Mewtwo, King K Rool, and Ridley no where to be seen, despite being the most wanted newcomers. ****s kreay. Megaman was on spot, though.

I think it's the issue that as we have fewer characters, the ones who are the most important and the ones who are popular will split off.

Brawl was the kind of pick up game. 64 set the stage, Melee expanded it to include the more important Nintendo characters outside of the stars of the series. From there, you have the second bananas. For contrast, Peach is very much a star of Nintendo as is Zelda and Mewtwo. They are prominate characters from Nintendo biggest series. Brawl picked up the other characters who were important to their own series but less so to the whole of Nintendo characters. This is why we got characters from series like DK, Kirby, and Starfox and had no new Mario or Zelda characters. The problem is that Brawl got the rest except for maybe Ridley. After that, there really isn't many importaint characters. But Smash needs to take the most important characters. To explain this, we have to look at Playstation All Stars Battle Royale. It did add big Sony names like Sly, Parappa, Kratos, and Sweet Tooth. But there are other characters who make less sense, like Big Daddy, Evil Cole, and even Emmett aren't that important. This is in contrast to characters who are Sony icons, like Crash, Dart, and Captain Bizarro (I think that's his name). Case in point, the company didn't take care to make sure the most importaint characters were in.

To explain this, let's look at Mario. There are a lot of characters who did well in the poll, but Rosalina was added. So let's look at the Mario characters.

• Toad - Toad is very iconic character, but he usually has a filler role in games and he doesn't stand out like the rest of the cast
• Waluigi - Waluigi has his own fanbase, but he hasn't had a strong role in the series (despite demand for more). Again, some people feel like he's filler
• Bowser Jr. - Outside of children who grew up with the Gamecube, a lot of people don't care for him. This is why he's appeared less and less in the main Mario games.

So none of the characters really stand out and it would be hard to call them iconic. But we have this new character called Rosalina. She was a prominate character in the successful Mario Galaxy and she appears again in 3D World. She has enough of a face in the main games. So what would make sense to add is Rosalina despite not being very popular with fans. The same is true of Villager and WFT. They weren't very popular, but Animal Crossing and Wii Fit are successful series, so them having a character would make sense (as an aside, Villager may have been more popular if we didn't assume he wasn't going to get in). Now let's look at the reverse. Skull Kid is a popular choice for a Zelda character. However, is he really iconic. I'd say no. Unless you specifically played Majora's Mask, you wouldn't know of him and Majora's Mask was a niche game for the series. So he didn't make sense to be added. So as you see, the issue is the most importaint characters are not the most popular and vis versa.

More characters who are high on the poll will get in as there is still convergence in some areas. The most obvious would be Little Mac, Ridley and Palutena. There will be some areas where it wont happen (Krystal, the Mario characters, Pac-Man).

 

[birdy21]

Where is the japenese poll?

 

[Shorts]

Currently no where.

 

[SmashShadow]

Bowser Jr. - Outside of children who grew up with the Gamecube, a lot of people don't care for him. This is why he's appeared less and less in the main Mario games.

What? Her appeared in Mario and Luigi Dream team, Sticker Star, and Super Mario Bros U/Super Luigi U as a boss character. The only notable games he hasn't appeared in are 3D Land and 3D World.

 

[SmashChu]

What? Her appeared in Mario and Luigi Dream team, Sticker Star, and Super Mario Bros U/Super Luigi U as a boss character. The only notable games he hasn't appeared in are 3D Land and 3D World.

Doesn't mean people like him.

 

[SmashShadow]

Doesn't mean people like him.

Since when has there been any massive show of dislike for Bowser Junior except for those few who complain about the Koopa Kids getting played under him. I would think that the large number of people voting for him shows that way more people like him.

 

[Shorts]

Doesn't mean people like him.

Dude, people obviously like him, maybe not you. But people do. As of right now, it seems more people like him than Toad even.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Doesn't mean people like him.

If you honestly think that people don't like Bowser Jr., than you are ignoring hard data.

 

[Shorts]

Got new stuffs, I'll be updating with. I think I'm going to be making a new kind of poll as well.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

A new kind of poll?

*hype intensifies*

 

[andimidna]

I think it's the issue that as we have fewer characters, the ones who are the most important and the ones who are popular will split off.

Brawl was the kind of pick up game. 64 set the stage, Melee expanded it to include the more important Nintendo characters outside of the stars of the series. From there, you have the second bananas. For contrast, Peach is very much a star of Nintendo as is Zelda and Mewtwo. They are prominate characters from Nintendo biggest series. Brawl picked up the other characters who were important to their own series but less so to the whole of Nintendo characters. This is why we got characters from series like DK, Kirby, and Starfox and had no new Mario or Zelda characters. The problem is that Brawl got the rest except for maybe Ridley. After that, there really isn't many importaint characters. But Smash needs to take the most important characters. To explain this, we have to look at Playstation All Stars Battle Royale. It did add big Sony names like Sly, Parappa, Kratos, and Sweet Tooth. But there are other characters who make less sense, like Big Daddy, Evil Cole, and even Emmett aren't that important. This is in contrast to characters who are Sony icons, like Crash, Dart, and Captain Bizarro (I think that's his name). Case in point, the company didn't take care to make sure the most importaint characters were in.

To explain this, let's look at Mario. There are a lot of characters who did well in the poll, but Rosalina was added. So let's look at the Mario characters.

• Toad - Toad is very iconic character, but he usually has a filler role in games and he doesn't stand out like the rest of the cast
• Waluigi - Waluigi has his own fanbase, but he hasn't had a strong role in the series (despite demand for more). Again, some people feel like he's filler
• Bowser Jr. - Outside of children who grew up with the Gamecube, a lot of people don't care for him. This is why he's appeared less and less in the main Mario games.

So none of the characters really stand out and it would be hard to call them iconic. But we have this new character called Rosalina. She was a prominate character in the successful Mario Galaxy and she appears again in 3D World. She has enough of a face in the main games. So what would make sense to add is Rosalina despite not being very popular with fans. The same is true of Villager and WFT. They weren't very popular, but Animal Crossing and Wii Fit are successful series, so them having a character would make sense (as an aside, Villager may have been more popular if we didn't assume he wasn't going to get in). Now let's look at the reverse. Skull Kid is a popular choice for a Zelda character. However, is he really iconic. I'd say no. Unless you specifically played Majora's Mask, you wouldn't know of him and Majora's Mask was a niche game for the series. So he didn't make sense to be added. So as you see, the issue is the most importaint characters are not the most popular and vis versa.

More characters who are high on the poll will get in as there is still convergence in some areas. The most obvious would be Little Mac, Ridley and Palutena. There will be some areas where it wont happen (Krystal, the Mario characters, Pac-Man).

...except Rosalina and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters
(Not relating to Smash Bros)

 

[Shorts]

...except Rosalina and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters
(Not relating to Smash Bros)

Why do you say that? They have the biggest r34 following?

 

[YoshiandToad]

...except Rosalina and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters
(Not relating to Smash Bros)

Source please.

I know Yoshi is popular everywhere, but this is the first I've heard of Rosalina being super popular, I'm collecting data on Mario characters for an Infographic at current, so if you have anything concrete I'd like to see it.

For the record here's what I have so far found;

As of 2008, Japan's list of favourite video game characters was something like this

and 2010 I managed to find this and this for their favourites.

For Mario Kart in the UK I managed to locate this.

In nearly all of these polls Mario and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters, with Luigi and Toad occasionally rearing their heads. I admittedly don't have any American data at all yet, so if you have something send it my way.

 

[andimidna]

I

Source please.

I know Yoshi is popular everywhere, but this is the first I've heard of Rosalina being super popular, I'm collecting data on Mario characters for an Infographic at current, so if you have anything concrete I'd like to see it.

For the record here's what I have so far found;

As of 2008, Japan's list of favourite video game characters was something like this

and 2010 I managed to find this and this for their favourites.

For Mario Kart in the UK I managed to locate this.

In nearly all of these polls Mario and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters, with Luigi and Toad occasionally rearing their heads. I admittedly don't have any American data at all yet, so if you have something send it my way.

I was excluding the main 4 and was talking about the present.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I was excluding the main 4 .

So you excluded the four characters that were more popular to make your point stand?

was talking about the present.

You got data for that statement?

Cause that's a pretty bold one.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I was excluding the main 4 and was talking about the present.

Err. Why? Excluding the main four but including Yoshi seems like a weird way to state who is overall the most popular, but alright...

You got data for that statement?

Again, I'd love to see the data for the present Mario character popularity as Swampasaur asked, as it will help with my infographic immensely.

Although even excluding Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser I can't honestly see her trumping Wario in overall popularity.

 

[andimidna]

What's the point in saying Mario is the most popular Mario character? I mean, of course he is. But why would I be talking about that?

I didn't look at polls to come to that conclusion. I based it off of 'experience.' Seeing who's requested for Smash and who I see a lot of drawings of on Miiverse. And some top ten favorite Mario character videos on YouTube.

I'm sure, whatever the numbers are, it's pretty close.

EDIT: plus I doubt there are many 2014 polls about this that have actually finished.

EDIT2: This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. http://www.yourfreepoll.com/zaugtklesr.html
No main 4. Rosalina is about 6% ahead of the 2nd place tie.

 

[YoshiandToad]

For the record I would of settled for a 2013 poll if there was one, but at least Edit2 is something concrete. Although it's in the context of who people want for Smash, rather than regular Mario and since we've already GOT Rosalina I have to wonder if it's actually influenced by that.

I was asking more for in general than in Smash due to you posting this:

...except Rosalina and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters
(Not relating to Smash Bros)

But I'll take this finding and add it to what I have anyway. Could be handy.

 

[andimidna]

For the record I would of settled for a 2013 poll if there was one, but at least Edit2 is something concrete. Although it's in the context of who people want for Smash, rather than regular Mario and since we've already GOT Rosalina I have to wonder if it's actually influenced by that.

I was asking more for in general than in Smash due to you posting this:



But I'll take this finding and add it to what I have anyway. Could be handy.

That was just to avoid getting a reply saying "Yoshi isn't a Mario character, he's a Yoshi character"
And that's the point. Rosalina's popularity skyrocketed with her SM3DW reveal and her SSBWiiU3ds reveal. And her Smash reveal was Dec 18th, so anything in 2013 wouldn't really show the present. As she had major increases in November and December.

 

[Manny Toons]

Source please.

I know Yoshi is popular everywhere, but this is the first I've heard of Rosalina being super popular, I'm collecting data on Mario characters for an Infographic at current, so if you have anything concrete I'd like to see it.

For the record here's what I have so far found;

As of 2008, Japan's list of favourite video game characters was something like this

and 2010 I managed to find this and this for their favourites.

For Mario Kart in the UK I managed to locate this.

In nearly all of these polls Mario and Yoshi are the most popular Mario characters, with Luigi and Toad occasionally rearing their heads. I admittedly don't have any American data at all yet, so if you have something send it my way.

Done.

There was also one from 2012 (Japan, by the way), featuring Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Waluigi (I can't recall if Toad was in it or not, because for Christ's sake, I can't find the image). But yeah, Rosalina... Not that popular.

Anyways, sweet thread, will keep my eyes on it.

EDIT: Ah, here it is:

It was claimed to be retweeted by Sakurai a while back (most likely due to the abundance of Kid Icarus characters, with Pit taking 1st place). But there you have it.

 

[Shorts]

New poll ~
1200’s
Mewtwo 24

800’s
Ridley 72

700’s
King K. Rool 95 - Palutena 38 - Roy 22 -Dixie Kong 9 -Chrom 3

600’s
Krystal 40

500’s
Isaac (Golden Sun) 98 - Bowser Junior 95 - Paper Mario 57 - Shulk (Xenoblade) 38 - Banjo & Kazooie 24- Waluigi 14 - Pac-Man 10

400’s
Black Shadow 67 - Majora (Skull Kid) 55 - Wonder Red (Wonderful 101) 19 - Bomberman 18 -Blaziken 13 - Samurai Goroh 07 - Castlevania (Simon Belmont) 00

300’s
Mii (Wii Series) 80 - Cranky Kong 72 - Ghirahim 69 - Lucina 68 - 2nd Sonic Character 63- Takamaru (The Mysterious Musasame Castle) 56 - Toad 54 - Tetra 50 - Dark Samus 49 - Lyn 49 - Bayonetta 43 - Rayman 38 - Kingdom Hearts (Sora) 37 - Phoenix Wright (Ace Attorney) 34 - Kamek 33- Ashley 31 -Doctor Mario 26 - Zoroark 17 - Robin (FEA Avatar) 14 - Super Mario RPG (Geno) 12 - Bandana Dee 309 - Toon Zelda 03 - Claus (Masked Man) 01 - Medusa 01

Everyone Else

Spoiler

• Hades 293
• Ganon 291
• King Boo 287
• Pokemon Trainer (Kalos) 287
• Final Fantasy (Chocobo, Black Mage, Moogle, Cloud, Lightning) 287
• Midna 279
• Dillon (Rolling Western) 277
• Professor Layton 267
• Chibi Robo 262
• Eevee (And Eeveelutions) 259
• Crono Trigger (Crono) 258
• Viewtiful Joe 256
• Wolf Link 255
• Vaati 251
• Anna 250
• Shy Guy 249
• Saki (Sin & Punishment) 241
• Porky 238
• Magnus 233
• Funky Kong 229
• Toon Ganondorf 229
• Impa 228
• Ray MK (Custom Robo) 221
• Pokemon Trainer (Hoenn) 219
• Captain Syrup 218
• Andy (Advanced Wars) 218
• Pokemon Trainer (Johto) 215
• Daisy 214
• Tingle 214
• Slippy 209
• Tom Nook (Animal Crossing 205
• Street Fighter (Ryu, Chun Li, M. Bison) 205
• No More Hereos (Travis Touchdown) 204
• Young Link 200
• Gengar 200
• Deoxys 199
• Dark Pit 199
• Meowth 198
• Fawful 193
• Baby Mario & Luigi 193
• Duck Hunt Dog 192
• Scribblenauts (Maxwell) 190
• Pichu 187
• Conker's Bad Fur Day (Conker) 187
• Tharja 185
• Lip (Panel De Pon) 184
• Micaiah 179
• Knuckle Joe 176
• Tales Series (Cless/Cress, Lloyd) 176
• Prince Fluff 175
• Black Knight 173
• Mona 168
• Pokemon Champion Cynthia 168
• 2nd Metal Gear Character (Raiden, Gray Fox) 165
• Groose 166
• Hawlucha 166
• Balloon Fighter 161
• Gardevoir 160
• Pokemon Trainer Villain 158
• Plusle & Minun 158
• Viridi 155
• Mach Rider 151
• Pokemon Trainer N 148
• Rhythm Heaven Character 148
• Starfy (The Legendary Starfy) 148
• Genesect 147
• K.K Slider (Animal Crossing) 146
• Kat & Ana 145
• Mew 144
• Adeliene 143
• Hector 142
• Baby Bowser 141
• Jimmy T. 141
• Pokemon Trainer (Sinnoh) 139
• Rival Trainer 135
• Soul Calibur (Nightmare, Ivy Valentine) 135
• Toon Sheik 134
• Classic Link 132
• Ephraim 128
• Giygas 128
• Anthony Higgs 126
• Kumatora 126
• Victini 125
• Phantom Zelda 124
• Sukapon (Joy Mech Fight) 123
• Ninja Gaiden (Ryu Hayabusa) 123
• Poo 121
• Alex (Golden Sun) 117
• Battletoads (Zitz) 115
• Sylux 114
• Peppy 114
• Captain Rainbow 114
• Jeff 113
• Captain N 112
• Felix (Golden Sun) 112
• Zael (The Last Story) 112
• Sami (Advanced Wars) 109
• Blood Falcon 107
• Ninten 107
• Matthew (Golden Sun) 107
• Klonoa 106
• Dragon Quest (Slime) 105
• Lanky Kong 104
• Yarn Kirby 104
• Fiora (Xenoblade) 103
• Resident Evil (Jill Valentine Chris Redfeild Leon Kennedy) 103
• Elite Beat Agents 102
• Ravio 100
• Paula 98
• Space Pirate 97
• Dunban (Xenoblade) 95
• Grovyle 93
• Eirika 92
• Flint 92
• Tekken (Heihachi, Jin, Kazuya) 92
• Nabbit 91
• Mr. Resetti (Animal Crossing) 91
• Alex Roivas (Eternal Darkness) 90
• Mike Jones (Star Tropics) 89
• Sheriff 88
• Louie (Pikmin) 87
• Prince Sable (For the Frog the Bell Tolls) 87
• King Hippo (Punch Out) 86
• Leon 86
• Jill (Drill Dozer) 85
• Jody Summer 83
• Aeron (Pandora's Tower) 83
• Captain Trio / Alph, Charlie, Brittany (Pikmin 3) 80
• Yarn Yoshi 82
• Duster 82
• Reyn (Xenoblade) 79
• Dark Matter 78
• Pokemon Gym Leader 78
• Yuga 76
• Isa Jo (Sin & Punishment) 76
• Panther 75
• Deathborn 74
• Excited Biker 74
• Ana 73
• KOS-MOS (Xenosaga) 73
• Eggplant Wizard 72
• Shake King 70
• Muddy Mole (Mole Mania) 70
• Caeda 69
• Donkey Kong Junior 66
• Bubbles (Clu Clu Land) 66
• Tempo (Harmo Knight) 66
• Marx 65
• Eliwood 65
• Stanly the Bugman 64
• Plasm Wraith (Pikmin III) 63
• Labrador / Grey Tabby (Nintendogs + Cats) 61
• Jumpman 60
• Leaf 58
• Soren 57
• Goemon (Goemon’s Great Adventure) 57
• Dr. Kawashima (Brain Age) 56
• Sigurd 54
• Weavel 53
• Elincia 53
• Ashley Robbins (Trace Memory / Another Road) 52
• Calista (The Last Story) 52
• Daitoryo (Hanafuda) 52
• Mallo (Pushmo) 50
• Dedenne 49
• Pico 48
• Muramasa: The Demon Blade (Momohime, Kisuke) 48
• Gooey 47
• Sakura Samurai (Sakura Samurai: Art of the Sword) 47
• Devil (Devil World) 44
• Daroach 43
• Magolor 43
• John Raimi (Geist) 43
• Celice 42
• Ayumi Tachibana (Famicom Detective Club pt. II) 40
• Lolo + Lala (Adventures of Lolo) 40
• Kyle Hyde (Hotel Dusk) 39
• Kiddie Kong 38
• Dr. Write (Sim City) 38
• Hunter (Fossil Fighter) 37
• Alice (Balloon Kid) 36
• Tamagon (Devil World) 36
• Urban Champion 35
• Orublon 34
• Diskun (Famicom Disk System) 33
• Heracles (Glory of Heracles) 33
• Marcus 30
• Hero (Magc Starsign / Vacation) 30
• Donbe & Hikari (Shin Onigashima) 29
• Dr. Lobe (Big Brain Acadamy) 28
• Ryota Hayami (Wave Race) 27
• Demille (Tomato Adventure) 26
• Prince Richard (For the Frog the Bell Tolls) 26
• Tiki Tong 25
• Dr. Stewart 25
• Hardin 25
• Lark (PilotWings) 24
• Vince (Art Acadamy) 24
• Narbarl 19
• Harry (Telerboxer) 18
• Ryuta (Ouendan) 15
• Welt (Soma Bringer) 10

 

[BluePikmin11]

I'm loving the results so far, Alph Brittany Charlie have a pretty big rating too. O.o
Also, Sable still beats Muddy Mole. <3

 

[Gunla]

Bandana Waddle Dee in the 300s and Palutena in the 700s?

 

[Shorts]

Bandana Waddle Dee in the 300s and Palutena in the 700s?

700's are like, as high as you can expect to be if you aren't Ridley/KRool/Mewtwo/Megaman

And Bandana isn't that big of a deal anywhere but here. He's liked, but not exeedingly so. I mean, look at Tingle. You'd expect more from the most likely Zelda choice.

 

[False Sense]

700's are like, as high as you can expect to be if you aren't Ridley/KRool/Mewtwo/Megaman

And Bandana isn't that big of a deal anywhere but here. He's liked, but not exeedingly so. I mean, look at Tingle. You'd expect more from the most likely Zelda choice.

Well, that's very debatable.

 

[Shorts]

Well, that's very debatable.

It's really not. Outside of Toon Zelda, it's really not.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ridley is so high....

It's amazing....

 

[Pichu Guru]

Aaaaaand done. King K.Rool is my #1.

 

[M23-X0]

@ Shorts Did you try to post your poll in french or spanish websites ? For example, http://www.jeuxvideo.com/ which is the most famous french videogame website, has a forum dedicated to SSB4 very well crowded, and I'm sure that our spanish friends also have some famous SSB4 forums.

I'm sure you'll have a few more votes with that.

 

[Shorts]

Do think they'll mind it's in english?


Edit: The entire site is in french, I'm signed up and ready, but I don't know.

 

[Rockaphin]

Done.

There was also one from 2012 (Japan, by the way), featuring Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Waluigi (I can't recall if Toad was in it or not, because for Christ's sake, I can't find the image). But yeah, Rosalina... Not that popular.

Anyways, sweet thread, will keep my eyes on it.

EDIT: Ah, here it is:

It was claimed to be retweeted by Sakurai a while back (most likely due to the abundance of Kid Icarus characters, with Pit taking 1st place). But there you have it.

Pit 1st? Mario 2nd? ....

 

[Pichu Guru]

It's really not. Outside of Toon Zelda, it's really not.

*ahem* Vaati.

@ Rockaphin : Finally some Kamek appreciation.

 

[M23-X0]

Do think they'll mind it's in english?


Edit: The entire site is in french, I'm signed up and ready, but I don't know.

I can help you Tell me what you want to do and I can translate it for them. Here is the link for the SSB4 forum : http://www.jeuxvideo.com/forums/0-29170-0-1-0-1-0-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u.htm

 

[Manny Toons]

Pit 1st? Mario 2nd? ....

Mario's been rocking 1st place for far too long, bud. It was about time someone snatched his throne.

 

[Rockaphin]

Mario's been rocking 1st place for far too long, bud. It was about time someone snatched his throne.

What was the poll for?

 

[Shorts]

I can help you Tell me what you want to do and I can translate it for them. Here is the link for the SSB4 forum : http://www.jeuxvideo.com/forums/0-29170-0-1-0-1-0-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u.htm

The poll itself is also in english, you know.

Hi there, my name is Shorts and I've been polling the Smash community trying to find out which characters people want to see most in Smash Bros. So, I've decided to bring the poll to jeuxvideo to get new insight on this communities opinions. The rules for my poll are simple:

1. Choose who you WANT to see in Smash bros, not who you EXPECT. (That means you can include Ashley, or Skull kid, and not include Mario or Megaman, if you choose to do so)
2. There is no character limit, go wild
3. If you have character suggestions TELL ME, I WANT TO HEAR THEM!
4. Have fun

http://kwiksurveys.com/s.asp?sid=4xrbu3cl1mwy6oc281132

Now, if only we had a Japanese speaker.

 

[Manny Toons]

What was the poll for?

I would say a poll for the most popular Nintendo characters, but the presence of Hatsune Miku and others leans towards a general 'most popular video game characters' poll.

 

[Rockaphin]

I would say a poll for the most popular Nintendo characters, but the presence of Hatsune Miku and others leans towards a general 'most popular video game characters' poll.

Those results are very.... shocking.