Wrath`
Smash Master
In my thoughts the advantages/disadvantages are similar to that of no team preview. In the end the better player should win (with minimal hax).
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Snorlax Room
- Thread starter Mewter
- Start date
- Status
ss118
Smash Master
The definition of "better player" has changed.
The "better player" makes the better team. Because honestly, the fact that team preview exists means there is a "cap level" to skill incorporated.
The "better player" makes the better team. Because honestly, the fact that team preview exists means there is a "cap level" to skill incorporated.
Circa
Smash Champion
I make ****ty teams but have some pretty mad skillz...so long as I'm using ****ty teams.
Maybe that's why I never got into 5th gen. Or maybe it was just everything else on top of that too.
But seriously. I'd use teams that should dominate almost every match so long as I played with a small amount of skill and tact, and lose almost every time, no matter how tactful I was. And then I'd use these super ****ty teams with stupid *** stuff that gave absolutely no core (or at least not any sort of good one) and I'd win. Clearly this game isn't meant for me.
Maybe that's why I never got into 5th gen. Or maybe it was just everything else on top of that too.
But seriously. I'd use teams that should dominate almost every match so long as I played with a small amount of skill and tact, and lose almost every time, no matter how tactful I was. And then I'd use these super ****ty teams with stupid *** stuff that gave absolutely no core (or at least not any sort of good one) and I'd win. Clearly this game isn't meant for me.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
You act like playing around your opponent is void now.
If you really want to deal with playing around your opponent like in 4th Gen while in 5th Gen, run stall.
ss118
Smash Master
Stall teams should be renamed "extended guessing" teams.
For example, when playing vs an opponent with team preview, you know whether you have the advantage or disadvantage.
If you have the advantage, it's a case of keeping X on your team alive so Y never kills you(because your opponent will be aiming to kill X so that Y can kill you, given that X and Y represent the highest chances for a team at the disadvantage to win).
If you have the disadvantage, it's a case of killing Y on your opponent's team so that you don't lose. There isn't necessarily an X you have to keep alive, but sometimes that's the case in instances where you only have a "check" for pokemon rather than a complete counter.
In both cases you decide what pokemon are allowed to be thrown away, or even what you can consider to throw away in terms of "even trades."
Want to know why this is all different from gen IV? You make these decisions before you enter the battle. The moment the battle occurs, assuming both players are evenly matched on a high level play, it turns into a game of who gets more "correct guesses" faster. Obviously the team with the advantage has more leniency.
For example, when playing vs an opponent with team preview, you know whether you have the advantage or disadvantage.
If you have the advantage, it's a case of keeping X on your team alive so Y never kills you(because your opponent will be aiming to kill X so that Y can kill you, given that X and Y represent the highest chances for a team at the disadvantage to win).
If you have the disadvantage, it's a case of killing Y on your opponent's team so that you don't lose. There isn't necessarily an X you have to keep alive, but sometimes that's the case in instances where you only have a "check" for pokemon rather than a complete counter.
In both cases you decide what pokemon are allowed to be thrown away, or even what you can consider to throw away in terms of "even trades."
Want to know why this is all different from gen IV? You make these decisions before you enter the battle. The moment the battle occurs, assuming both players are evenly matched on a high level play, it turns into a game of who gets more "correct guesses" faster. Obviously the team with the advantage has more leniency.
ss118
Smash Master
There is a difference between predicting and guessing.
Predicting implies you assumed a move your opponent would make. This would include something as small as switching from a dragon to a steel type because you had a dragon out, so you double-switched in Heatran(assuming team preview isn't on and you haven't revealed anything yet).
On the other hand, when both parties know the 9 moves available to the opponent, "predicting" essentially turns to nothing. It starts to turn into guessing as high level play would do something like "Do I go to Scizor to take the Draco Meteor? But if he calls that and brings out Infernape, I should stay in and Earthquake."
That's a 50/50. That's a "guess," not a prediction.
The actual cases in games won't be this extreme. You don't know the 24 moves picked, you don't know EVs or items. You know the pokemon. But in a game with so many viable pokemon, the likelyhood that a pokemon can not be overshadowed with more than one or two sets is small. You can guess that a player using Latios won't spam Outrage because there are so many things that do it better, so Blissey is more or less a safe option(especially with Fling =D). Of course this brings up the idea of "baiting" and stuff, but in a scenario of 2/3's in which pokemon should be played imo it turns into a one time gimmick that wins the ladder but loses the tournament as it puts you more behind than ahead in the long run.
Edit: Yes I am implying that late-game gen IV once you knew all the members turned into a guessing game. However by that point everything is so construed by things such as previous damage, hazards, status, etc that if you knew what you were doing it turned out more to be a sequence of "playing out the win" rather than guessing.
Predicting implies you assumed a move your opponent would make. This would include something as small as switching from a dragon to a steel type because you had a dragon out, so you double-switched in Heatran(assuming team preview isn't on and you haven't revealed anything yet).
On the other hand, when both parties know the 9 moves available to the opponent, "predicting" essentially turns to nothing. It starts to turn into guessing as high level play would do something like "Do I go to Scizor to take the Draco Meteor? But if he calls that and brings out Infernape, I should stay in and Earthquake."
That's a 50/50. That's a "guess," not a prediction.
The actual cases in games won't be this extreme. You don't know the 24 moves picked, you don't know EVs or items. You know the pokemon. But in a game with so many viable pokemon, the likelyhood that a pokemon can not be overshadowed with more than one or two sets is small. You can guess that a player using Latios won't spam Outrage because there are so many things that do it better, so Blissey is more or less a safe option(especially with Fling =D). Of course this brings up the idea of "baiting" and stuff, but in a scenario of 2/3's in which pokemon should be played imo it turns into a one time gimmick that wins the ladder but loses the tournament as it puts you more behind than ahead in the long run.
Edit: Yes I am implying that late-game gen IV once you knew all the members turned into a guessing game. However by that point everything is so construed by things such as previous damage, hazards, status, etc that if you knew what you were doing it turned out more to be a sequence of "playing out the win" rather than guessing.
Wave⁂
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 11,870
I won't deny that most of competitive Pokemon boils down to guesswork.
S Tier: Conditioning
A Tier: Prediction
C Tier: Guessing
D Tier: Nothing
[7/6/2011 2:35:11 AM] Evan: be good at skillshots, wave
[7/6/2011 2:35:13 AM] Evan: and you will go far
[7/6/2011 2:35:35 AM] Evan: i know a couple players who are great tactically and strategically and map awareness and teamwork wise
[7/6/2011 2:35:42 AM] Evan: and will wiff against a stationary target
[7/6/2011 2:35:49 AM] Evan: i do not like playing with them, wave
[7/6/2011 2:35:53 AM] Evan: it is sad.
[7/6/2011 2:36:18 AM] gdUayv: oh my god i hate it when i aim in front of someone
[7/6/2011 2:36:21 AM] gdUayv: and they just stop moving
[7/6/2011 2:36:36 AM] gdUayv: and i miss by 50 miles
[7/6/2011 2:49:58 AM] Bubbles: lol yeah
[7/6/2011 2:50:02 AM] Bubbles: that happens with ashe's ult alot
[7/6/2011 2:50:04 AM] Bubbles: cuz its so slow
[7/6/2011 2:53:17 AM] Evan: i always overpsychoanalyze the opponent
[7/6/2011 2:53:37 AM] Evan: "he expects me to lead him, so he'll juke...but he'll know i know he knows, so that he compensates for my juke knowledge...so he"
[7/6/2011 2:53:48 AM] Evan: A CHAMPION HAS BEEN SLAIN.
[7/6/2011 2:53:58 AM] Evan: YamiChan666 has slain BoBoTheBum !
[7/6/2011 2:54:13 AM] gdUayv: and then my heracross uses megahorn against heatran
[7/6/2011 2:54:31 AM] Bubbles: lol
[7/6/2011 2:55:09 AM] Bubbles: i condition my opponents
[7/6/2011 2:55:19 AM] Bubbles: by not trying to read them right when a match starts in pokemon
[7/6/2011 2:55:22 AM] gdUayv: ugh, too meta for me
[7/6/2011 2:55:26 AM] Bubbles: and just act predictable
[7/6/2011 2:55:33 AM] Bubbles: then after 2 or 3 switches
[7/6/2011 2:55:37 AM] Bubbles: i start throwing in random predictions
S Tier: Conditioning
A Tier: Prediction
C Tier: Guessing
D Tier: Nothing
[7/6/2011 2:35:11 AM] Evan: be good at skillshots, wave
[7/6/2011 2:35:13 AM] Evan: and you will go far
[7/6/2011 2:35:35 AM] Evan: i know a couple players who are great tactically and strategically and map awareness and teamwork wise
[7/6/2011 2:35:42 AM] Evan: and will wiff against a stationary target
[7/6/2011 2:35:49 AM] Evan: i do not like playing with them, wave
[7/6/2011 2:35:53 AM] Evan: it is sad.
[7/6/2011 2:36:18 AM] gdUayv: oh my god i hate it when i aim in front of someone
[7/6/2011 2:36:21 AM] gdUayv: and they just stop moving
[7/6/2011 2:36:36 AM] gdUayv: and i miss by 50 miles
[7/6/2011 2:49:58 AM] Bubbles: lol yeah
[7/6/2011 2:50:02 AM] Bubbles: that happens with ashe's ult alot
[7/6/2011 2:50:04 AM] Bubbles: cuz its so slow
[7/6/2011 2:53:17 AM] Evan: i always overpsychoanalyze the opponent
[7/6/2011 2:53:37 AM] Evan: "he expects me to lead him, so he'll juke...but he'll know i know he knows, so that he compensates for my juke knowledge...so he"
[7/6/2011 2:53:48 AM] Evan: A CHAMPION HAS BEEN SLAIN.
[7/6/2011 2:53:58 AM] Evan: YamiChan666 has slain BoBoTheBum !
[7/6/2011 2:54:13 AM] gdUayv: and then my heracross uses megahorn against heatran
[7/6/2011 2:54:31 AM] Bubbles: lol
[7/6/2011 2:55:09 AM] Bubbles: i condition my opponents
[7/6/2011 2:55:19 AM] Bubbles: by not trying to read them right when a match starts in pokemon
[7/6/2011 2:55:22 AM] gdUayv: ugh, too meta for me
[7/6/2011 2:55:26 AM] Bubbles: and just act predictable
[7/6/2011 2:55:33 AM] Bubbles: then after 2 or 3 switches
[7/6/2011 2:55:37 AM] Bubbles: i start throwing in random predictions
ss118
Smash Master
Those tiers remind me of melee and Gen 2 more than any of the later gens lol
idk. I won't say gen V is only guesswork but I don't even get the feeling I play against anyone anymore; I just play their team. Obviously you can make bad decisions, but that means they suck.
idk. I won't say gen V is only guesswork but I don't even get the feeling I play against anyone anymore; I just play their team. Obviously you can make bad decisions, but that means they suck.
ss118
Smash Master
Man I am running a really cool team.
Espeon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Wish
- Protect
Mienshao (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- Rain Dance
- Sunny Day
- U-turn
Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Protect
- Toxic
Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Scald
- Hex
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 40 SAtk / 136 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder Wave
Blissey (F) @ Brick Mail
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
Might change things around a bit and replace something with a steel type. The idea was that the top six pokemon (Nattorei, Tyranitar, Scizor, Politoed[and thus rain], Gliscor, and Latios) would be completely countered.
Thinking Jirachi > Blissey to not be ruined by poison + SS. Also Dragon attacks are slightly hard to take without a steel-type on the team...
Thundurus is probably getting Taunt > Nasty Plot with a more bulky spread. That or it's getting replaced; it really doesn't counter Gliscor if they use Toxic. ><"
Mienshao is lol. I'm impressed by the metagame that they have enough balls to keep tyranitar on it and take the U-turn. The double weather is used because I want it to be. I admit only Sunny Day is necessary to nerf rain and SS teams, which remain the majority. But then I get 90% ****ed by sun, which will come up occasionally.
Espeon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Wish
- Protect
Mienshao (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- Rain Dance
- Sunny Day
- U-turn
Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Protect
- Toxic
Tentacruel (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 248 HP / 120 Def / 136 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Scald
- Hex
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 40 SAtk / 136 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder Wave
Blissey (F) @ Brick Mail
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Def / 152 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Seismic Toss
- Wish
- Protect
- Stealth Rock
Might change things around a bit and replace something with a steel type. The idea was that the top six pokemon (Nattorei, Tyranitar, Scizor, Politoed[and thus rain], Gliscor, and Latios) would be completely countered.
Thinking Jirachi > Blissey to not be ruined by poison + SS. Also Dragon attacks are slightly hard to take without a steel-type on the team...
Thundurus is probably getting Taunt > Nasty Plot with a more bulky spread. That or it's getting replaced; it really doesn't counter Gliscor if they use Toxic. ><"
Mienshao is lol. I'm impressed by the metagame that they have enough balls to keep tyranitar on it and take the U-turn. The double weather is used because I want it to be. I admit only Sunny Day is necessary to nerf rain and SS teams, which remain the majority. But then I get 90% ****ed by sun, which will come up occasionally.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
wow. that team looks pretty dirty.
Defensive/Stall teams are why I'm testing this set:
Darmanitan @ Leftovers
216 HP/156 Atk/136 Spe
Jolly / Sheer Force
Substitute
Encore
Belly Drum
Fire Punch
at +6 it 1hko's everything that's even remotely common on stall, and substitute+encore+101HP subs gives it all kinds of opportunities to set up. Paired with my rampardos lead that basically guarantees SR, it eats stall for breakfast. My normal team builds are weak to stall, therefore slapping this on it might be the answer. :3
An answer to rain AND sand...is a bit harder to come by. Maybe a prankster weather changer, maybe a scarfed Golduck, maybe throwing on a Kingdra, etc.
Darmanitan @ Leftovers
216 HP/156 Atk/136 Spe
Jolly / Sheer Force
Substitute
Encore
Belly Drum
Fire Punch
at +6 it 1hko's everything that's even remotely common on stall, and substitute+encore+101HP subs gives it all kinds of opportunities to set up. Paired with my rampardos lead that basically guarantees SR, it eats stall for breakfast. My normal team builds are weak to stall, therefore slapping this on it might be the answer. :3
An answer to rain AND sand...is a bit harder to come by. Maybe a prankster weather changer, maybe a scarfed Golduck, maybe throwing on a Kingdra, etc.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hm. what is brick mail???
Circa
Smash Champion
Hey Wave. I am Circa. That is Articanus. I did not make that team.
My teams have Flygon and ****.
My teams have Flygon and ****.
Circa
Smash Champion
Mamimi is nothing like Twilight Sparkle I am insulted.
![Terywj [태리]](/data/avatars/l/71/71007.jpg?1555906021){kind=avatar}
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
Both avatars say, "U mad?", too.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
what is hsien ko saying???
choknater
Smash Obsessed
is that what hsien ko's saying, spenser???
Wrath`
Smash Master
Love the -9,999 post count.
They just need to release Phoenix Wright gameplay footage for UMvC3 already.
They just need to release Phoenix Wright gameplay footage for UMvC3 already.
yes
she's also smacking the idiot who got to -9999 post count
good girls don't need to worry about this kind of thing
D
Deleted member
Guest
i pretty much agree strongly with everything branden said. they seriously gimped player skill almost as much as feasibly possible. it's like playing poker except you can choose your cards, and you and your opponent can see each other's hands. like, why are you even playing at that point? you just pick what's strongest mathematically and it's just going through the motions, and once in a while you get advantage/disadvantage based on missing and criticals. i just don't understand the appeal.
Kantrip
Kantplay
How annoying are stall teams consisting of hazards, phazing, a dedicated wall on both sides of the spectrum, healing support, trap-countering (wobbs ), boost-move negating, trick scarfing, and resistance to absolutely every type?
Pretty annoying.
), boost-move negating, trick scarfing, and resistance to absolutely every type?Pretty annoying.
Circa
Smash Champion
It sounds like a stall team that still loses to a powerful mixed attacker. Although I could be wrong.
Nonetheless it sounds like a pretty standard stall team. :|
Nonetheless it sounds like a pretty standard stall team. :|
choknater
Smash Obsessed
hahahhaha
the greatest stall teams use
EXCADRILL!!!
the greatest stall teams use
EXCADRILL!!!
Kantrip
Kantplay
Don't double post
oh wait nvm got the avatars mixed up they're both purple
Yeah, it's an ineffective team in practice, but if your opponent doesn't have the appropriate taunt user or wallbreaker, they will lose in something like an 100-turn match.
oh wait nvm got the avatars mixed up they're both purple
Yeah, it's an ineffective team in practice, but if your opponent doesn't have the appropriate taunt user or wallbreaker, they will lose in something like an 100-turn match.
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
Hurr durr no.Don't double post
oh wait nvm got the avatars mixed up they're both purple
Zook
Perpetual Lazy Bum
choknater
Smash Obsessed
just make a team that LOOKS like it's weak to sandstorm
then whip out that excadrill.
edit: LMAOOOOOOOOOO ZOOK AKA LITLE BEAR
then whip out that excadrill.
edit: LMAOOOOOOOOOO ZOOK AKA LITLE BEAR
Kantrip
Kantplay
Gurdurr?
EDIT: So ninja'd
EDIT: So ninja'd
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
Zook is walking all over you~Gurdurr?
EDIT: So ninja'd
Sapphire Dragon
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 17, 2009
- Messages
- 4,789
- Location
- Let go of the scars that define you.
- NNID
- SapphireRyu
- 3DS FC
- 3351-4374-1516
- Switch FC
- SW-2172-6976-4896
Lmao, I love this thread.
Anyway, reading through all the talk about teams/Sun/gens/etc, I was curious about which gen each of you think is/was the best as far as competitive play goes. Yes, I'm talking all opinion here.
Anyway, reading through all the talk about teams/Sun/gens/etc, I was curious about which gen each of you think is/was the best as far as competitive play goes. Yes, I'm talking all opinion here.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i think the best was gen 2 LOL. 100+ turn battles YEE YEE
my favorite is gen 5 though. i like the diversity
my favorite is gen 5 though. i like the diversity
Kantrip
Kantplay
Funnily enough, the majority of the stall team I mentioned is 2nd gen. Actually, I think it could easily be all 2nd gen if you swap ferro for forre
Whoa. Just noticed that. Their nicknames are anagrams.
IT'S A SIIIIIIGN!
Whoa. Just noticed that. Their nicknames are anagrams.
IT'S A SIIIIIIGN!
choknater
Smash Obsessed
LOL
metal thingies with eyes
i can see it.
brofist for life
er
no fists?
bro eyes.
metal thingies with eyes
i can see it.
brofist for life
er
no fists?
bro eyes.
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
More like broface.
Forrtress suffered Iron Thorns damage!
Forrtress suffered Iron Thorns damage!
- Status