The Smash Tournament Format is Flawed

[C.Olimar788]

From what I can gather, items might be used IF one could turn off randomly exploding containers. Since you can't really do that in Brawl either (capsules still explode randomly, right?) than items should probably stay off for "serious" tournaments.

 

[Blatherskite]

I have got to say, this guy has the worst arguments ever. Just stop now before you embarass yourself any further. Items have been tested in tourny play. They're out. Deal with it.

And please stop with the "exploding crates/capsules is the reason why items are out" crap. Items are out for many reasons, and exploding crates/capsules is just one of them.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

They're completely different. Super bars are awarded in those games thanks to activity. Whether you are poking, spamming a projectile, parrying, just-defend, etc. your meter is awarded thanks to activity inputted by the controls.

Items in smash have random spawn locations regardless of player activity. One can be camping, running away, or doing nothing at all. Yet there's a chance that an item will pop up near any player doing anything or nothing at all.

The point in a smash tournament format is to eliminate as many random factors as possible. Items are too chaotic and vary in their usefulness to be considered in a high stakes tournament scene. Your comparison to games with super bars is too limited. That's not a very accurate analogy.

I offer you a better one. Take the same game with the said super bars. Now add random items that spawn in random places during the fight. Some items fill your super bar, others make you invincible, some eliminate your super bars, some make you lose control of your character, and all this spawns during a best 3 out of 5. Luck has now become a major factor in winning while some of the skill takes a backseat. That's something competitive play tries to limit at all costs.

Personally though, I don't mind separating tourneys into items/smash balls/no items. You attract a wide audience and encourage use of a wide variety of characters. If people were interested in taking up time to do all that, I'm sure there'd be limited complaints. I know I'd play all three myself.

Before arguing, did you read my append regarding this in the first post?

 

[Ced The Lad]

Oooof. I was typing as I was watching the Cavs game. I must have missed all that as I was busy.

 

[Ryan-K]

Supers aren't random. (Points out somone)

I used super meters to be simplistic. I didnt want to get into explaining all the mechanincs of Guilty Gear. There are as many as 4 meters going at once in that game. Sometimes more with different chars. The chances of having the same conditions any 2 times in that type of environment are very random.

Concept of risk reward when getting an item.

Somone attests that grabbing an item isnt risky. Its an almost 0 frame maneuver. However, you have to stop whatever you are already doing to get the item, leaving yourself open to attack. That is the risk, the item is the reward.

As far as I know the meters in guilty gear don't RANDOMLY fluctuate and you don't die because of randomness.

If they aren't doing anything waiting for the item then they aren't getting interrupted. Plus you assume items don't spawn near players which is hardly true.

I don't care that you play with items but stop trying to change something that people like and has been established. Quit trying to tell everyone else how to play the ****ing game. I am only arguing because your analogies and your "logic" were horrible.

 

[Sephi_hatu]

items dont spawn inbetween the two players. the items can appear anywhere, including right on top of someone. the opponent CANNOT prevent you from getting an item that appears on top of you. unless you think players are fighting 2 steps away from each other at all time.

I like items too, but they ARE random factors, and if people want to compare skill then they are probably right to ditch the items. I assume that you think things will ballance out and one game a player will get good item luck and then the next game have bad item luck... but when there is $500 on the line would you really want to lose because of a random explosion?

Someone mentioned this earlier but you missed it. I charge up a forward smash, the opponent is dazed. Right before I let my smash go a bomb spawns right infront of me. I can't cancel my smash attack...so?

you can play with items just dont expect everyone to agree to it

Im not saying items arent random. Im saying that items are fine to use because a good player makes good use of opportunities given by items. Its like knowing how to chain grab. Some people utilize it effectively, some dont, and thats what separates the good from the bad.

 

[Ryan-K]

Im not saying items arent random. Im saying that items are fine to use because a good player makes good use of opportunities given by items. Its like knowing how to chain grab. Some people utilize it effectively, some dont, and thats what separates the good from the bad.

You forgot the part where a chaingrab is earned when you grab them and have the ability to chase DI correctly, and not to mention that it isn't earned on a lucky streak and randomness going your way.

 

[Thino]

Supers meters =/= random appearance of an item anywhere on the stage giving more chance to the player to grab it than another player on the stage

 

[SimaMatt]

sephi do you go to tournaments?

 

[Sephi_hatu]

As far as I know the meters in guilty gear don't RANDOMLY fluctuate and you don't die because of randomness.

If they aren't doing anything waiting for the item then they aren't getting interrupted. Plus you assume items don't spawn near players which is hardly true.

I don't care that you play with items but stop trying to change something that people like and has been established. Quit trying to tell everyone else how to play the ****ing game. I am only arguing because your analogies and your "logic" were horrible.

Firstly, Im a compendium when comes to guilty gear. I have an actual arcade machine. I play that religiously. You can tell how a meter fills, but for the most part, there are so many of them that replicating conditions is near impossible.

Secondly, there are people who like no items. Then theres everyone else. The people who like no items are confined to this board. Thats under 10,000 people, if you assume everyone. There are 6 million people who play Smash.

 

[maelstrom99]

Sephi hatu... You are posting on a message board that deals with both casual play and competitive play. A tournament consists of players who want to play competitively and are in it to win. I want to reiterate this because a lot of the casual players like to criticize competitive players since they do not play with items or are trying so hard to learn any advanced techniques.

Sure you can do it, but its not the way its supposed to be played. The object of the tourny is to find out whos the best at Smash, not that best at What I Say Smash Is. We should be playing Sakurai's Smash Bros, not Bare Bones Smash Bros.

You missed Sakurai's message completely that it's not even funny. Sakurai meant for Brawl to be played BY EVERYONE. He didn't intend for Smash Bros. to be played with Items or no items, or people using only Donkey Kong. This game is meant to be played anyway someone wants to play it. As long as they are having a good time, which brings me to my next point.

More than one person has agreed that items add a random factor, which is why there has been a majority vote on the banning of items. I respect your opinion that items don't add a random factor to the game, but this is the majority rule and if you do not like it, then do not play competitive tournament Smash Bros. Brawl. because there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Ryan-K]

Firstly, Im a compendium when comes to guilty gear. I have an actual arcade machine. I play that religiously. You can tell how a meter fills, but for the most part, there are so many of them that replicating conditions is near impossible.

Secondly, there are people who like no items. Then theres everyone else. The people who like no items are confined to this board. Thats under 10,000 people, if you assume everyone. There are 6 million people who play Smash.

Wow so I guess I underestimated your ability to be intelligent seeing as how you interpret everything on a literal level huh? Just because a small amount of people play smash with no items doesn't mean you aren't telling everyone to play a certain way. Going to tournaments and abiding by their rules is someone's free will you know.

So guilty gear bars fill randomly, with no control whatsoever? So what you are saying is at any given time during a match if both players do absolutely nothing a meter can go up or down dramatically with no warning or reason? Because that is what you are heavily implying.

 

[Nitesever]

How many people need to tell you that you are wrong before you just give it up? Tournament rules were created by tournament goers who wanted to see how they matched up in the tournament community. People travel across the country to see just how good they are, and you want us to make each match a game little more challenging than flipping a coin? No thanks.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Sephi, the original assumption you make is wrong. A super is built towards through action of the player. As are Guard, Burst, Revenge, whatever meters in other fighting games. Items random spawn. There is no correlation between player action and item spawn chance. Furthermore, in the right hands items can mess up the competitive balance of the game. Ray Gun cheeze, Fan Lock, faster characters able to get to the items more effectively, etc. Item play should be tested more in Brawl, but unless there's a way to rig the item drops, the randomness is going to prevent items from ever being used in tournaments.

 

[MookieRah]

@Sephi
So far you have ignored a lot of points people have made about the negative aspects of items? Why haven't you addressed these?

I'll sum up the anti-item argument right now in condensed format. I'd like you to try to argue each of these points with a counter-argument.

1. Items are random:
Items spawn in random places, at random times, and the item that spawns is also random. There is no way to prepare for them, there is no way to incorporate them into your strategy. They may even out in randomness in a match, but it can also favor one person or another.

2. Items create more balance issues:
Items give faster characters even more advantages in matches. Because the spawn locations are random, chances are the faster characters will be able to get to the first. Yes, sometimes you have to work to get an item, and sometimes you can use an item as bait, but the fact remains that a lot of times items are practically given to you via their location and the situation, and the fast characters have a better chance at nabbing them overall.

3. Items promote camping:
Because items, even the legal ones when items were used in melee, were very powerful, camping and being overly defensive is an incredibly viable option. One could simply turtle, wait for an item, and use it against his opponent. Typically the people employing these strategies would play a fast character, see example 2 for balance problems, and would rely on items a great deal in the match. That's not to say the people using these strategies are bad players. I don't want anyone to insinuate that using this tactic makes you a n00b, cause if a REALLY GOOD player abused this situation then it would be devastating. This of course is the point, it's a strategy that would dominate every other strategy. It would polarize character use and it would make the game devolve into abusing and relying on items. This would be bad.

So yeah, continue to argue for items, but I would like you to address the points.

 

[lengeta]

This is what we call 'Risk-reward'. You have to stop what your doing and pick up the item. No matter where you are. Leaving yourself open to attack.

Ok, I stopped right there, you haven't done your research. In Brawl you are now able to "pick-up" an item at any time. Drop a banana with Diddy Kong, dash-attack over it, press 'A', and voila! You just picked up a banana in the middle of a Diddy's cartwheel dash-attack.

I should mention I'm pro-item, but there are very good reasons why they're banned from competitive play. Brawl has fixed some issues, but it needs more testing before a final judgment is put in place. I'd also like to state that you shouldn't tell others how to play, and they won't tell you how to play.

 

[WastingPenguins]

What the hell is the problem here? If you want smash ball tourneys then why don't you make some smash ball tourneys and quit complaining that other people are playing the way they like to play?

 

[Solid Samus]

This thread =

Logic much? Spock am cry.

 

[PolarisJunkie]

Secondly, there are people who like no items. Then theres everyone else. The people who like no items are confined to this board. Thats under 10,000 people, if you assume everyone. There are 6 million people who play Smash.

Sorry to be frank, but...so?

SmashWorldForums is a COMPETITIVE Forum, for the most part. It is used to discuss competitive strategies. Those 10,000 people are the people who founded this board and created the rules that go along with it.

And items were implemented at one point, but were deemed too random and unfair in Melee. If you want to discuss a casual tournament, than go ahead and use items, but its really unfair of you to go to a Competitive Super Smash Bros. Forum and spout your opinions as fact.

 

[GoldenS1104]

This doesn't really belong in the Brawl section. The format can't be flawed if there isn't one yet. The "official" format hasn't really been decided on yet since we haven't had enough time with the game. Not to mention the fact that half of us haven't even played it yet. It's reasonable to disagree with the format in which Melee tournaments are generally held, but it doesn't make sense to have a beef with something that doesn't even exist yet.

 

[Sir Bedevere]

Sorry to be frank, but...so?

SmashWorldForums is a COMPETITIVE Forum, for the most part. It is used to discuss competitive strategies. Those 10,000 people are the people who founded this board and created the rules that go along with it.

And items were implemented at one point, but were deemed too random and unfair in Melee. If you want to discuss a casual tournament, than go ahead and use items, but its really unfair of you to go to a Competitive Super Smash Bros. Forum and spout your opinions as fact.

I may be on your side, but I REALLY need to speak out about this.

If you think this is a Competitive Smash Forum, you are sadly mistaken. A majority of people here-a majority of Smash players in fact- are casual players. Competitive make up the minority. Last I checked, a world leader isn't elected because there are less people in favour of him, so the same applies here. Don't put a label on these forums that excludes the majority.

It says "The Largest Smash Bros. Community" Nowhere in there does it say competitive.

 

[YoshiKnight]

Im not a competive player, but I respect the way they play. If they think items are unfair(I agree) then why do you try to "prove" there fair. Just let them play how they like.

 

[Artanisix]

Firstly, Im a compendium when comes to guilty gear. I have an actual arcade machine. I play that religiously. You can tell how a meter fills, but for the most part, there are so many of them that replicating conditions is near impossible.

Secondly, there are people who like no items. Then theres everyone else. The people who like no items are confined to this board. Thats under 10,000 people, if you assume everyone. There are 6 million people who play Smash.

The meters do not fill randomly. The tension gauge does not fill up randomly - more tension is rewarded for more aggressive play. The burst gauge does not fill up randomly - the meter is filled as time passes and is also filled as you take damage. And your HP bar certainly does not fall randomly! Am I missing any meters in GGXX? (Side note: Super meter in Street Fighter fills practically the same as the tension gauge in GGXX).

It does not matter if it is impossible to replicate ... filling of the meter? It's a bit difficult to decipher exactly what you're trying to say in your first paragraph. What are you trying to say? How is it even relevant? After all, all the meters are controllable - it is the player who can decide when to blow their burst or super or tension. The same cannot be said with items - you do not have full control over item spawn points and what item will spawn from the pool of selected items.

Secondly, that's great if there are people who like items. Good for them! Since only 10,000 people enjoy playing Smash Bros. without items, why don't you invite the other 5,990,000 other people to your awesome item tournament? What's stopping you? Think of the potential profits man!

I believe it was John Locke - I may be wrong, haven't taken government in years - who said that if people did not like their government then they had the right to dispose of it. The same idea can be applied here. If the majority of players do not currently enjoy the way tournaments are being run - that is, without items - then it is up to the playerbase to change it. However, what we are seeing here is that people LIKE the current tournament scene, just like the current American people LIKE federalism! They are happy with what they have! They see items like Americans see communism, in a sense. It's out there, there are a lot of people who play by those rules, but hell are we glad we aren't under that set of rules.

You're doing a terrible job of convincing the current tournament players that items will be a better, more enjoyable, more fair system than no items. I have not bothered pointing out the complete idiocy of items because, well, plenty of other posters have done that to a much better degree than I could have.

 

[MookieRah]

@Artanisix
Wow man. You are definitely on my list of awesome newcomers to the smashboards. Solid post and good logic ftw.

 

[TaurToph]

Give up, dude. You can't change people mind in Smashboards. It's impossible.

 

[iLink]

Your logic fails. The problem with items is that they appear at RANDOM locations and at RANDOM times. And obviously quick characters have an advantage as they can obtain the items much faster then slower characters. And using SF is a horrible example as the meter doesn't randomly fill up.

 

[zeldamaster2006]

I see your point, but I agree with them: tournaments are made to see who is the better player. If one gets an item spawn next to them, it can give them an unfair advantage. The same applies in a stage where one character is better than another.

 

[Winston]

Also, have you considered that items aren't as fun when you actually get good at this game?

 

[Chexr]

Well this guy says we should do it like this. Guess we dont really have much choice.

 

[S0crat3s]

I have nothing against items, I just never turn them on because they tend to get in the way of my combos (attack and item grab share the same button)...

But on the topic of "lol if a itum apeers on top uv sum1 than thay get a advantej n it dun taek skilz 2 get a item=brokin n un balensed," I'd have to say that yes, it is annoying when you're trying to recover horizontally, and a Star Rod spawns next to your opponent, but aside from the "broken" items the OP listed, you have to:
1- Make it to the item (removing your guard from your opponent)
2- Stop to grab the item (which may seem like nothing to fret about, but you have to stop above it and press A, leaving you 100% vulnerable for that precious second)
3- Use the item well (if somebody starts swinging the Home Run Bat wildly or throws a Bob-omb in a predictable fashion, they're still screwed)

 

[thesage]

I would really like to know what items you think would be allowed in competitive play.

 

[S0crat3s]

I would really like to know what items you think would be allowed in competitive play.

I'd probably just go with Smash Balls...

 

[ph00tbag]

We can argue about randomness all we want. The truth is, Smash has many elements that can generate random advantage, including, but not limited to, The 9, misfiring and Stitchface, as well as Peach's other attacks.

The real problem is what is meant to be in the game. The OP has suggested that items are meant to be in the game, but the above examples reveal the fallacy in his/her argument.

Why are items banned when Stitchface and his ilk are not? Because they can be. There is no way to ensure that a 9 will not come out, or a misfire; and to demand that a Peach player toss a Stitchface or laser sword that she has pulled off the stage is downright absurd. It can't be done. But we can ensure that items never appear, so the question never even comes up. This is because of item switch. The game was designed so that the game could be played without items. This means that items are just as much meant to be in the game as they are meant not to be.

Now is the time when we consider random advantages. First of all, I would posit that any random advantage gained by any player in any competitive game meets with a great deal of spite in its community. I would further posit that a competitive community would remove all random advantages that they could. Thus, if the competitive community could remove Stitchface from Melee, they would. I don't just believe this. I know it. Now, we can't remove Stitchface, but we can remove items. And we do.

Essentially, he game is meant to be played with Stitchface, but not necessarily with items. Thus, a game develops around no items. It's unfortunate that a whole aspect of the game must be excised, but that is no flaw, because the aspect it removes is flawed (from the standpoint of competitive fairness).

 

[Korpocalypse]

"This is what we call 'Risk-reward'. You have to stop what your doing and pick up the item. No matter where you are. Leaving yourself open to attack."

You aren't open to attack if the opponent is on the other side of the field. It's too easy to just pick up an item and not have it actually give the person who picked it up a disadvantage. I think items would be still in IF, and probably only if, it were an incredibly slow motion to pick up an item (in order to give said advantage).

Also, exploding capsules are a problem because they appear randomly. Hypothetical situation: I'm yoshi, I hit other player (fox) into the air, then jump to follow up with an egg, when from nowhere (thin air if you like) a capsule appears where i am in the air, explodes, and I fly off the stage, lose the match, lose the tournament, lose my manager, lose my job as a proffesional brawler, become a hobo, get sent to africa, get AIDS and then eat babies.
Now, the situation above is 1 of many, and I for one am completely against the spread of AIDS and baby eating, but if you are into those kinds of things, i guess items really should be allowed in brawl competitive play.
'nuff said

 

[pyrotek7x7]

As everyone else said, items are too random.

There isn't much risk in grabbing an item when it spawns right on top of you. Then, the item gives an incredible amount of advantage.


These "super" moves you spoke of probably weren't taken out of tournament play because you CAN'T take them out of tournament play.

 

[M3tr01D]

Items add randomness to the game. Where they spawn is random, what item is dropped is random, and sometimes even whether it explodes or not is random. Players that play FOR MONEY do not want to lose because the opponent got a better item, or because a crate blew up in their face from out of nowhere. No one that actually plays Melee or Brawl or any kind of game for a competition would agree to having items on, because it makes the match possibly not based on skill, but based on luck.

 

[kellerdood32]

Heres what i think, No items proves who has more skill. Items can still be a part of a competitve game but sometimes "cheap" things may happen. Lets say its 1v1 Fox vs Mario. they both have one life Fox is at 120% damage and Mario is at 50%. Odds are Mario will win, a healing item appears and gets Fox back to 0%. Mario still has a chance of winning but it will be hard, next thing you know marios at 100% and fox is at 50%, a hammer appears right next to fox. Wham! marios ko'd. Obviously this does not really mean that fox is better.

and if its competitve you always gunna hear "YOU ONLY WON BEACAUSE OF THE *****) where if theres no items theres almost no excuses. I believe in playing competitvely with items on or off, but off in a tournament for money and prizes.

 

[SothE700k]

Ah c'mon, not ANOTHER one of these threads...WILL THEY EVER END?!!?!? (don't answer that, I already know: NOPE) =\

 

[-Aether]

Grammar = Good.

Opening Paragraph = Good.

Logic = Fail.

I'm sure you're an intelligent individual, but there is no arguement for that inclusion of items that allows balanced play. The game my take more skill to play when you have items on, because you need to master another aspect of the game, but this increased level of skill is offset by advantages items give you. Sure, you may need to be intelligent to use an item, but it doesn't mean that picking up that item didn't instantly improve your options. Why do people not see this distinction?

All in all, epic fail. My apologies.

 

[Finch]

Even if there were items in tournaments, you would still lose. Play with items if you want. If you can't bear to be without them then just don't ****ing go to tournaments