Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
I did ask McFox for permission to start this thread, he said it was fine but I should ask an SBR mod 1st just in case.. SBR Mod Decision Pending..
SBR Balancing Project - Debate and Discussion
As alot of people that hang around the GBD already know, certain members of the Smash Back Room have undergone a bit of a project, the purpose of which is to balance out Brawl to make it more competitive. This will mostly entail changing of character stats by the sound of it. Well, I'll throw in some quotes so you aren't misinformed:
But will these changes significantly increase the level of play it that Brawl offers?
Here's what they have in mind for the changes:
Keep in mind that this is the thread you should be posting in if you have an issue with this project. The other thread should be kept clean for programmers to discuss how they can help with the project itself. If you have a problem with it, post it here.
Here are just a few things I decided to throw in to provoke some debate to get started:
I guess I may have to update this if people pick this thread up, but to be honest, people only want thier opinions heard in threads they think people will notice. Like I've said before, people usually want attention, not substance or debate. So if you legitimately have opinion on this topic you wish to share for reasons other than soaking up 15 seconds of fame, feel free.
Just don't mess up the other thread.
SBR Balancing Project - Debate and Discussion
As alot of people that hang around the GBD already know, certain members of the Smash Back Room have undergone a bit of a project, the purpose of which is to balance out Brawl to make it more competitive. This will mostly entail changing of character stats by the sound of it. Well, I'll throw in some quotes so you aren't misinformed:
Basically, what he is saying here is that we have already 'technically' done so much to Smash already, that this may serve as justification for the continuation of altering the game itself. I like the example used..but whether or not Smash fits into this example should come into question. FPS's are a much different game variant (obviously) and can be improved significantly through simpler changes. Smash may undergo simple changes...The SBR is considering the possibility of starting a project to release balance patches for Brawl using Ocarina (or GeckoOS) to hack the game (note: This is a software hack, not a hardware hack. All it requires is an SD card and a copy of Twilight Princess). The purpose of this project is NOT to change the way Brawl fundamentally works. There would be no sweeping changes to the game engine itself, no Melee air dodge, no speed increase, no increase in shield stun, no widespread increase in hitstun, etc. This project would be to simply try to balance the game as best as we possibly can. This could potentially add infinite replayability to the game, and could theoretically lead us to having one of the most balanced fighters on consoles if we continue this project for long enough.
No fighting game has ever before released balance patches throughout the game’s lifespan in order to better balance the game, and Brawl is no exception. The Smash series in and of itself is not balanced to keep in mind the competitive rulesets that we make for them. 1v1, stage bans, stage strikes, counter picking, no items… there is quite an extensive list of complicated rules we’ve created in order to make Smash competitive. In fact, we’ve done so much to the game already that it is no longer the same Smash game that was included in the box. This is an entirely new Smash that we, the smash community, have created. Personally, I think of what we’ve done to Smash is something akin to like what Counterstrike did to Half-Life. CS was merely a mod of HL at first, using the same basic engine altered in many ways using the modding programs that came with the game. By making HL run under different rules that they made up, things like having rounds and money to buy weapons every round, along with new skins for the game itself, CS became an entirely different entity that changed a game focused on FFA deathmatch not meant to be too serious into a hardcore competitive FPS. CS took off to become a far more popular multiplayer game than HL ever was by itself, and the competitive CS community is enormous even today. While we, unfortunately, may not have tools packed in by the developers to make a mod, we still did the exact same thing by making up our own rules that were not included with the original game itself. Although many of us refuse to admit it, we have already created a “counterstrike” for Smash. And now we have the opportunity to take it farther.
But will these changes significantly increase the level of play it that Brawl offers?
Here's what they have in mind for the changes:
And that is what they propose the project will achieve.Let me give you an example of what I’m referring to with this project. This is a quick example (that I personally made right now) of what we could possibly do to balance DeDeDe:
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DeDeDe
Nerfs
- Standing grab slower by ~2-4 frames.
- Knockback of Back air reduced by 20% (i.e. current knockback at 80% would now apply for 100%)
- Back air starting animation slower by ~2-5 frames
- Damage of Down throw reduced from 8% to 6%
- Spotdodge length increased by ~1-2 frames
Synopsis: DeDeDe has a harder time with KOing and racking up damage as fast as he used to with his usual methods. But he still doesn't have a difficult time with actually racking up the damage, as his main methods of doing so haven't decreased by much. Also, he is more punishable spotdodge, and his standing grab isn't as fast as it used to be (so he no longer has the infinite grab and it makes it slightly more difficult to get the grab).
Buffs
- Waddle Dee damage increased from 5% to 8%
- Waddle Doo damage increased from 7% to 12%
- Starting animation of Down B slightly faster
- Increased priority of Neutral air
- Increased damage of Neutral air from 12% to 15%
- Slightly increased knockback of Neutral air
Synopsis: Increasing his options to rack up damage with by buffing a few attacks. Also potentially giving him another viable, yet situational, KO option.
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These sorts of changes, along with a few other additions such as no tripping and >3 minute replays, are what this potential project would try to accomplish. However, this would be an EXTREMELY difficult and long process, so if the SBR decides to take this on, then we’ll have one hell of a job to do.
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Keep in mind that this is the thread you should be posting in if you have an issue with this project. The other thread should be kept clean for programmers to discuss how they can help with the project itself. If you have a problem with it, post it here.
Topic Points:
Here are just a few things I decided to throw in to provoke some debate to get started:
The suitability of wave-dashing and L-cancelling has come into question a few times in the original thread, and the decision is still in there air whether the majority of people are in favour of it.Uhh ... this really seems kind of pointless to me. I can understand why some people would want to hack Brawl for wavedashing / L canceling, but changing actual properties of the characters seems a little excessive.
Distribution is a big issue that needs alot of though unfortunately. It's hurdles like these that are the biggest for such a project.i don't see how you can even distribute the hacks on a worldwide level, nevermind the the fact that the meta-game of brawl is slowly decreasing.
i don't want you to get me wrong though, i love brawl. i would rather personally play brawl than melee. brawl is something i have come to love and accept, like you panda.
this isn't something that is going to happen though, there is a better chance of getting overswarm to stfu about meta knight, or mewtwo king getting to stfu about OS.
hacking a game should never ever be an option. there is no point to play a game that should be hacked in order to make it better.
Character specific changes in the project are the centerpiece for the project, therefore they should also be a topic of debate. Who should be balanced more? What standard will people be balanced to? And which characters will be NERFED?I LOVE the concept, but there is a serious problem with the idea, namely that the changes need to be kept absolutely minimal so that people without the hack can still practice.
For example, using the OP's example.
Reducing the knockback of Dedede's Bair, not so much as to nerf the move but enough to make it not KO as fast, and reducing the damage on his CG so as not to make it so overpowering is great. Increasing Waddle Dee knockback is fine (though, do we really want to encourage more camping in Brawl?).
But increasing the amount of frames in his spotdodge? Dedede players will be used to the timing, and different timing on his spotdodge will equate to Dedede players messing up their timing..
I guess I may have to update this if people pick this thread up, but to be honest, people only want thier opinions heard in threads they think people will notice. Like I've said before, people usually want attention, not substance or debate. So if you legitimately have opinion on this topic you wish to share for reasons other than soaking up 15 seconds of fame, feel free.
Just don't mess up the other thread.