TLMSheikant
Smash Master
joined :D.
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the salamence debate
- Thread starter yummynbeefy
- Start date
- Status
If Heatran explodes it kind of kills itself in the process.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
Just sayin, Latias had an OU counter who had some decent uses outside of countering Latias. ScarfTar.
Mence has a BL counter that has little use outside of countering Mence. Cressy.
I don't see how Latias was banned, let alone its ban be some sort of reason to Ban Mence.
Smogon is ********.
Mence has a BL counter that has little use outside of countering Mence. Cressy.
I don't see how Latias was banned, let alone its ban be some sort of reason to Ban Mence.
Smogon is ********.
ss118
Smash Master
Garchomp had a UU pokemon that had use outside of countering it. A lot of other pokemon could, as well(and do it easier than attempting to counter Mence), but Sand Veil made him generally gay soooo.... yeah.....
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
Because of SR, wouldn't Cloyster pretty much die to doing anything except switching into Chomp?
Cressy never has use outside of Mence countering because of having like 5% left by the time it actually counters it.
Also I don't quite understand the whole "Chomp easier to switch into and counter" thing. It boasted high attack, more bulk than Swampert, Scarf Variations required nothing short of Gar and Starmie to outspeed and threaten, Yache versions were unafraid of anything short of scarfed dragons and Cloyster. Even without Sand Veil those two extra speed points made EVERYTHING for it.
Cressy never has use outside of Mence countering because of having like 5% left by the time it actually counters it.
Also I don't quite understand the whole "Chomp easier to switch into and counter" thing. It boasted high attack, more bulk than Swampert, Scarf Variations required nothing short of Gar and Starmie to outspeed and threaten, Yache versions were unafraid of anything short of scarfed dragons and Cloyster. Even without Sand Veil those two extra speed points made EVERYTHING for it.
D
Deleted member
Guest
okay. "who cares?"
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Ulti stop pretending that Scarftar is good. Its not.
E123-omega
Smash Journeyman
Salamence's defenses are too high, he has more Sp. Defense than Shelgon, that is messed up.
![Terywj [태리]](/data/avatars/l/71/71007.jpg?1555906021){kind=avatar}
Terywj [태리]
Charismatic Maknae~
No way, you mean a Pokemon's stats don't go up when they evolve?
And Mow, Smogon cares. Way too much.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I don't get the attitude here at all. Let's review. When banning a pokemon, it shouldn't matter
1. If they over centralize
2. If they have no counters
3. If they are too versatile
(not claiming that Salemence is, I have another point here)
So then, what the **** do you all consider bannable? Outside of these 3 issues, you come down to just personal preference and HAX. So then, we should only ban things in Pokemon because we don't like them? None of you have proposed any sort of ban criteria seperate from Smogon's, and considering how a good deal of you want our Jumpluff banned to Ubers simply because you find it annoying, I don't see any reason to trust PokeCenter's feelings on what should and should not be banned. None of you have proposed any sort of reasoning for what should and should not be banned, and only state your discontent with Smogon's set up.
1. If they over centralize
2. If they have no counters
3. If they are too versatile
(not claiming that Salemence is, I have another point here)
So then, what the **** do you all consider bannable? Outside of these 3 issues, you come down to just personal preference and HAX. So then, we should only ban things in Pokemon because we don't like them? None of you have proposed any sort of ban criteria seperate from Smogon's, and considering how a good deal of you want our Jumpluff banned to Ubers simply because you find it annoying, I don't see any reason to trust PokeCenter's feelings on what should and should not be banned. None of you have proposed any sort of reasoning for what should and should not be banned, and only state your discontent with Smogon's set up.
Things should be banned if they are so good that it'd be stupid not to use them on every single team. Like Arceus. Six of them.
You people have terrible humor. 
I also would be fine with Wobbuffet being unbanned, and six Mences would lose to six Weaviles.
I also would be fine with Wobbuffet being unbanned, and six Mences would lose to six Weaviles.
Weavile has Fake Out. Wear all the Focus Sashes you want.
Okay, here's the math. Six Weaviles with Focus Sashes. Fake Out breaks any possible Sash, -1 (Intimidate) Ice Shard will hit any Mence for at least 33% WITH the Berry, 66% for any Mence without. Mence will break the Sash with Flamethrower, then die to the second Ice Shard. The next Mence will get Ice Sharded, breaking both Sash AND Berry, and at that point Weavile will continue the pattern of Fake Out, Ice Shard until death, because it's up by 1.
Six Weaviles will lose to six Scizors.
Six Weaviles will lose to six Scizors.
See, my logic is flawless!
E123-omega
Smash Journeyman
He is a shell, you would think that he would have higher Sp. defense when he HAS the shell, not when he loses it.No way, you mean a Pokemon's stats don't go up when they evolve?
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
He doesn't lose it, it becomes his skin.
E123-omega
Smash Journeyman
Listen to dexter.
Don't post here if you don't have anything to add to the discussion.
Guys, stay on track. This isn't about Salamence's origin or pokedex entry.
No, that's actually a legitimate point. Why is it important that Salamence apparently centralizes the game? Banning should be done due to a pokemon being legitimately too strong for OU, something that is actually broken(like skymin) Who cares if it's over centralizing?
Riddle
Smash Lord
A lot of people care that its over-centralizing. Some people dislike centralized metagames. I'm going to steal something that I'm pretty sure Articanus said (correct me if I'm wrong):
A ban is legitimate if it leads to a metagame that has two qualities:
A) skill is required, so a better player will consistently beat a worse plater
B) Its FUN.
I don't think anyone can deny that a salamence-less metagame requires skill, and I think plenty of people think a mence-less metagame is simply more fun.
A ban is legitimate if it leads to a metagame that has two qualities:
A) skill is required, so a better player will consistently beat a worse plater
B) Its FUN.
I don't think anyone can deny that a salamence-less metagame requires skill, and I think plenty of people think a mence-less metagame is simply more fun.
Wave⁂
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 11,870
Because it's easier to define "overcentralizing" than "broken". As a matter of fact, "overcentralizing" actually HAS a definition.
Fun is relative. And making drastic changes like this can only be investigated through the Suspect tier. And not everyone plays Suspect.
Riddle
Smash Lord
Propose an alternate criteria for banning then Wave. Sure fun is relative but I'm fairly sure its THE reason we all play pokemon.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
how is fun relative at all??? (asking riddle too)
ss118
Smash Master
would you play pokemon if it wasn't fun? Why do you think that a bunch of users quit after Garchomp was banned, or Latias was brought into OU, or quit Ubers once Wobbuffet started gaining popularity, or even quitting UU once Raikou, Froslass, Crobat, or whoever left UU? I promise because it didn't promote balance.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
well no i wouldnt but what im saying is for example breloom is no fun to fight but will he be banned just because hes no fun to fight against? probably not
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Can we seriously cut this crap? Either propose an alternative ban criteria, or stop posting "Who cares?"
D
Deleted member
Guest
when trying to come to a resolution, the last thing you want to do is propose an ultimatum to the voting audience. "who cares?" is a legitimate argument since you have to realize going into the debate that the definitions of what makes "uber" or "overcentralizing" are arbitrary. by their very nature, the usage statistics determine the most played pokemon and how the metagame is centralized, and last I checked scizor was still #1 in usage.
I propose that we keep the criteria that defined an uber before-hand, when it was simply "deemed too good for the OU metagame". At least then they accepted that it was arbitrary in nature and simply cut out pokemon over base 600 or those 600s with imbalanced stat distributions (deoxys comes to mind).
chill: don't criticize my stance if you're unwilling to evaluate it.
yummynbeefy
Smash Champion
well then lets post criteria shall we?
my criteria:
are there any rediculous sets/pokemon being used for the sole purpose of countering that pokemon I.E.( icicle spear cloyster, scarftar ect.)
the closest thing that comes to that is cressy but mence also loses to any bulky water with ice beam and almost anything with an ice attack (yachemence isnt even worth mentioning considering how rare it is)
can this said pokemon prove majorly threatening to the balance of the metagame?
i believe not, after all we dont see cressys all over the place (the supposed counter for mence) even though mence is the best pokemon in OU and after he needs to be countered right?
i find it very hard to believe that cressy is the only true counter to mence, most bulky waters can take an outrage or sometimes even 2 and shoot right back with an ice beam
alsoooooo
where can i find the usage for OU and suspect ladders?
my criteria:
are there any rediculous sets/pokemon being used for the sole purpose of countering that pokemon I.E.( icicle spear cloyster, scarftar ect.)
the closest thing that comes to that is cressy but mence also loses to any bulky water with ice beam and almost anything with an ice attack (yachemence isnt even worth mentioning considering how rare it is)
can this said pokemon prove majorly threatening to the balance of the metagame?
i believe not, after all we dont see cressys all over the place (the supposed counter for mence) even though mence is the best pokemon in OU and after he needs to be countered right?
i find it very hard to believe that cressy is the only true counter to mence, most bulky waters can take an outrage or sometimes even 2 and shoot right back with an ice beam
alsoooooo
where can i find the usage for OU and suspect ladders?
Wave⁂
Smash Legend
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 11,870
I'm on the side of reason, not of banning or anti-banning. Fun is a good reason, but you can't measure it. Probably.
Do you know what "relative" means?
Pfffft. Bad argument. I'm sure a few people left the USA when Obama was elected president. Does that mean he should be lynched? No.
So, by your definition, what is Uber, and what isn't?
MysticGar (Scizor), Tentacruel (Infernape), Weavile and Mamoswine (Dragons), Blissey (basically every special attacker), ScarfRachi (Gyarados, Dragons, Scizor, Aerodactyl, Tyranitar)...
Mence 2HKOs max / max Bold Suicune with Draco Meteor and Outrage with Stealth Rocks. Note that max / max Bold Suicunes don't even carry Ice Beam, that's just an example.
Arbitrary measurement. Scizor, Latias, Heatran, Garchomp, Lucario,and Infernape all fall under this criterion.
While Tentacruel is a somewhat legit point, as it's a very niche Pokémon pretty much only good because of its defensive typing against Infernape, among a few other things for stall, the rest really aren't. MYSTICGar is a set designed to throw off Gengar's natural counters, while the others you listed are, as you listed, able to counter an entire category of Pokémon, rather than being specialized at just bringing down a single one.
What's your point? That Scizor is that hard of a counter for Gengar, or that Gengar running HP Fire is something that's happening because Scizor is so strong of a Pokémon that you need to have a kill option for it on everything? Is Colbur Berry Azelf a sign that Machamp absolutely must be dealt with, or just a set to stop a counter anti-lead?
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