Meta "The Saikyo Dojo" Ryu Metagame Discussion.

[TheHopefulHero]

Just thought I should post my own thoughts on Ryu because I want to take part of the discussion.

SF Inputs are definitely a big help for Ryu to dish out damage and secure stocks a lot sooner, but that's not to say his smashes and specials aren't bad. The Donkey Kick (F-Smash) hits hard and covers a lot of ground, his down Smash can have some options for combs, and his Up-Smash and Up-B can be performed out of shield which is always a great thing to have, and while they're not as strong as his SF Input Shoryuken, then can do the job well enough at later %'s. Ryu's specials also deserve a special note in that they're reversible giving them some special utilities despite being weaker than the SF Inputs (except for Shakostan for obvious reasons), like doing a reverse Shoryuken for recovery purposes. So don't forget about the other moves for taking stocks even though SF Shoryuken is very satisfying to land.

I love to use the Up-Air (I beleve j.Mp in Street Fighter games...) in Smash, especially if there's platforms involved. The Up-Air has a short recovery time so it's possible to get a combo started if you land a hit with it. When there's platforms in the stage, I like to use the Up-Air and fast fall to land on the platform. At early %'s, I have enough time to go for another Up-Air or a quick combo that can end in a Shoryuken for some quick damage. On Battlefield / Miiverse, it's possible to reach the top platform while carrying your opponent with the Up-Air and score heavy damage from a combo alone if you can reach the platforms (and a SF Shoryuken if you're quick enough). Just something to try out if you got the opprituntity.

I do have a question for you guys: Do you think Swordfighters can be a problem for Ryu? In my experience, characters like Roy and Marth / Lucina can make approaching trouble some for since they can outrange him with their normals / tilts / aerials (and Roy can just ruin Ryu's day with a simple F-Tilt / F-Smash...). Focus Attack can help Ryu get in, but most of the time they're ready to grab you should you dash out, or they're too far for the punch to land (Or counter if they want to be jerks). Any particular thoughts on this?

 

[iLLEST]

Sf inputs can be reversed. Gotta get that reverse srk down offstage with invincible frames..

 

[Elessar]

I am drafting a guide/introduction of sorts to Ryu (should be ready tomorrow evening due to real life) and have a question: what is the official terminology we're settling for? I mean, will specials with input be called SF SRK and SSB SRK for instance? Or SRK and Real SRK? Also, will tilts be L Ftilt and M Ltilt? Or Weak Ftilt vs Strong Ftilt? Or Tap Ftilt vs Hold Ftilt?

 

[Humanity]

Sf inputs can be reversed. Gotta get that reverse srk down offstage with invincible frames..

Got this to work immediately, nice find. Getting it consistent will be tricky...

 

[TheHopefulHero]

Oh, I didn't know that. Time to hit the lab and edit my post.

 

[Humanity]

If the training mode combo counter can be trusted than it's possible to get a grounded Dair to combo into Upsmash, haven't been able to get it too consistently though. Timing's probably pretty tight.

Edit: Practicing in slow-mo, it works on Mario at kill percents. Pretty sure you need the hitbox on down air to come out within a couple frames of hitting the ground to get it.

Edit 2: This is way harder to pull off with cross-up Dairs because of the post-landing slide effect after Dair, but it can be done.

 

[Elessar]

If the training mode combo counter can be trusted than it's possible to get a grounded Dair to combo into Upsmash, haven't been able to get it too consistently though. Timing's probably pretty tight.

Edit: Practicing in slow-mo, it works on Mario at kill percents. Pretty sure you need the hitbox on down air to come out within a couple frames of hitting the ground to get it.

That counter can be somewhat counted upon, but not too much. The way that counter works is that it takes into account whether the hit landed during hitstun or not. However, there are no stale moves in training and no DI. Therefore many strings of attacks which may count as combos there won't actually connect due to DI.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

I am drafting a guide/introduction of sorts to Ryu (should be ready tomorrow evening due to real life) and have a question: what is the official terminology we're settling for? I mean, will specials with input be called SF SRK and SSB SRK for instance? Or SRK and Real SRK? Also, will tilts be L Ftilt and M Ltilt? Or Weak Ftilt vs Strong Ftilt? Or Tap Ftilt vs Hold Ftilt?

Up + B = Shoryuken
Forward, Down, Down-Forward = EX Shoryuken
Weak Tilt and Strong Tilt

I'm writing a guide as well and that's the terminology I'm using. It's just easier this way.

 

[iLLEST]

I am drafting a guide/introduction of sorts to Ryu (should be ready tomorrow evening due to real life) and have a question: what is the official terminology we're settling for? I mean, will specials with input be called SF SRK and SSB SRK for instance? Or SRK and Real SRK? Also, will tilts be L Ftilt and M Ltilt? Or Weak Ftilt vs Strong Ftilt? Or Tap Ftilt vs Hold Ftilt?

I like SF DP and SSB DP, I also like dtilt1 and dtilt2. I'm sure we'll all be able to understand whatever you put, just make a key.

 

[Elessar]

Up + B = Shoryuken
Forward, Down, Down-Forward = EX Shoryuken
Weak Tilt and Strong Tilt

I'm writing a guide as well and that's the terminology I'm using. It's just easier this way.

Looks like. We'll have an abundance of guides since Aero is also doing another one. We should try to have just one very thorough one. As well as get a consensus on terminology.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Looks like. We'll have an abundance of guides since Aero is also doing another one. We should try to have just one very thorough one. As well as get a consensus on terminology.

My guide is following the same template as the Greninja one in my signature, which is pretty detailed. I vote for calling the input specials "EX (special move name here)". Shakunetsu Hadouken is Red Hadouken or Red Fireball, or just Shakunetsu Hadouken. Strong (hold) tilt/jab and weak (tap) tilt/jab.

 

[Humanity]

it's possible to get a grounded Dair to combo into Upsmash.

This works with EX Shoryuken too. It kills a bit later but will probably connect when Upsmash wouldn't if the opponent DIs certain ways.

 

[Neo Zero]

Have you guys played with his Aerial FADC yet? This tool seems so ridiculous.

-Can be done multiple times in the air in both directions rapidly. This allows Ryu to completely change his air trajectory from his rigid jumping arc to a quick forward or backward.
-This can be very helpful when recovering, as it allows you to conserve your Tatsu and Jump while still getting closer to the stage
-Off a short hop, you can cross through any opponent with the forward or back air dash (though the tall characters have to be frame perfect). You can also start a few aerials (though the hitbox for none of them will come) though you can double jump right before hitting the ground
-Off a Full Jump, you can do any aerial (though to get the hitboxes for Bair and Dair to come out you gotta be fast). Bair's actually comes out about the perfect height to hit almost any opponent (some crouchers it does whiff on though), as well as Air Dodge, Jump
-You can chase a bit off stage doing this, while again conserving Tatsu and your Jump to get back to the stage. Just remember you still can't go that low and far or you'll likely die.
-While hanging on the ledge, if you drop down you can FADC dash on the stage and land very quickly. Not sure if it'd be faster than dropping down and jumping back on (it seems about the same time wise), however while you're holding the focus you can tank a hit, charge in, then likely attack, grab, or even focus again to tank a second hit and let it rip, as the landing lag from the air dash seems non existent.
-As mentioned, you can change your direction, this would likely allow you to break out of juggles fairly easy as you can focus, take a hit, and then dash away from there to get back to the neutral game.

If anyone has played Jr (or heck, just watched Tweek) I feel the AFADC will be a strong mix up and mobility tool, where you can vary your approaches often and quickly, while having the armor from the Focus Attack tank stray hits for you. If you actually hit the Focus Attack (like in an air to air situation) and still have your jump, you can even dash in and hit Uair or SRK (I think, need to test more, training mode at least says its cool).

Also slight probably placebo, but I THINK the back air dash goes slightly farther than the front air dash. It looks like to me the back air dash has a bit more of a slide when you land, but like I said, could just be placebo.

I am drafting a guide/introduction of sorts to Ryu (should be ready tomorrow evening due to real life) and have a question: what is the official terminology we're settling for? I mean, will specials with input be called SF SRK and SSB SRK for instance? Or SRK and Real SRK? Also, will tilts be L Ftilt and M Ltilt? Or Weak Ftilt vs Strong Ftilt? Or Tap Ftilt vs Hold Ftilt?

Id keep the terminology to what a Smash player can understand. Tap and Hold, not exactly sure what for specials, maybe special and input special? Iunno

 

[Humanity]

Thought I'd pop in here one last time to share something kinda fun and pointless I discovered while messing around with Ryu's final smash. If he finds a target in the shin shoryuken hitbox and begins the animation, but during the windup animation his target leaves that hitbox, he'll do a weird multi-hit version of the regular shoryuken instead. I think it's supposed to be a whiff sequence, it is capable of hitting opponents but does rather underwhelming damage and knockback for a final smash.

Easiest way to set it up if you're curious is to grab a Mario in training mode and set him to ~335%, get a smash ball, and hit him with weak Utilt then spam B. If you get the Hadouken you're not hitting it fast enough.

 

[Elessar]

My guide is following the same template as the Greninja one in my signature, which is pretty detailed. I vote for calling the input specials "EX (special move name here)". Shakunetsu Hadouken is Red Hadouken or Red Fireball, or just Shakunetsu Hadouken. Strong (hold) tilt/jab and weak (tap) tilt/jab.

That is a really good guide. I was going to follow the style of the Link Board's guide but make it more complete in the sense that I was going to explain the terminology (such as SSB SRK, or EX SRK) and the mechanics of Smash itself (Stale moves, rage, etc) in order to make it into a guide that any complete newbie (like a SF player new to smash looking to test Ryu) could use to learn about the game itself. I like the idea of having the patch changes in the same thread to be honest, though maybe it could be best to have it in a separate thread since there are a lot of discussions taking place when a patch first goes life. The guide could need to be cleaner than that.

Anyways, as I said, there is no point in having too many guides since they are bound to end up repeating themselves. How about if we collaborate in order to have only one, really thorough guide?

 

[onehundredhitz]

Thought I'd pop in here one last time to share something kinda fun and pointless I discovered while messing around with Ryu's final smash. If he finds a target in the shin shoryuken hitbox and begins the animation, but during the windup animation his target leaves that hitbox, he'll do a weird multi-hit version of the regular shoryuken instead. I think it's supposed to be a whiff sequence, it is capable of hitting opponents but does rather underwhelming damage and knockback for a final smash.

Easiest way to set it up if you're curious is to grab a Mario in training mode and set him to ~335%, get a smash ball, and hit him with weak Utilt then spam B. If you get the Hadouken you're not hitting it fast enough.

That's funny, that actually happens in SF4 when you miss the "sweet spot" of his ultra. Instead of getting the full animation, he does a multi-hit DP.

 

[Elessar]

Id keep the terminology to what a Smash player can understand. Tap and Hold, not exactly sure what for specials, maybe special and input special? Iunno

That is what I was thinking about going for. After all, while Ryu is a SF character this is Smash and it is a Smash board, so the guide should ultimately be more accessible to smash players. Smash already has too many unique terminologies; we can't go asking people who want to learn Ryu (already the most complex and input demanding char in smash) to learn the entire terminology of a completely different game, just for one char.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I vote for calling the input specials "EX (special move name here)".

I'm going to be a stickler for SF accuracy and suggest that you shouldn't use "EX," as they don't match up to the behavior of the actual EX specials in Street Fighter. (EX Tatsumaki, for example, has invincible start-up, extra juggle properties, and no forward momentum at all. That's not true of any version of that move in Smash.)

 

[onehundredhitz]

That is what I was thinking about going for. After all, while Ryu is a SF character this is Smash and it is a Smash board, so the guide should ultimately be more accessible to smash players. Smash already has too many unique terminologies; we can't go asking people who want to learn Ryu (already the most complex and input demanding char in smash) to learn the entire terminology of a completely different game, just for one char.

I think a good way to settle this would be to use the terms like utilt1/2, ftilt1/2, etc. for the weak/strong versions, and use the term "true" for the SF specials, like true DP, true Hadouken, etc. The cr.lk/mk stuff is honestly just for us people who play other fighting games to kind of "connect". if you will lol. Kind of like speaking a native language to one another and then switching to Smash terms for foreigners (even though we're the real foreigners in this example), for lack of a better term, haha. While I'm not one of those SF elitists who think one game is **** compared to the other (nor do I think anyone else here who plays both is), having Ryu in the game does kinda bridge the gap between the two series, and it's fun and a bit liberating to refer to attacks by their "real" names when speaking to one another. But, as you said, this is a Smash game on a Smash board, so using Smash terms should be utilized more so for those who don't know what the FG terms are.

I'm going to be a stickler for SF accuracy and suggest that you shouldn't use "EX," as they don't match up to the behavior of the actual EX specials in Street Fighter. (EX Tatsumaki, for example, has invincible start-up and extra juggle properties. That's not true of any version of that move in Smash.)

Yes, I completely agree with this. True is a better term.

 

[Elessar]

I think a good way to settle this would be to use the terms like utilt1/2, ftilt1/2, etc. for the weak/strong versions, and use the term "true" for the SF specials, like true DP, true Hadouken, etc. The cr.lk/mk stuff is honestly just for us people who play other fighting games to kind of "connect". if you will lol. Kind of like speaking a native language to one another and then switching to Smash terms for foreigners (even though we're the real foreigners in this example), for lack of a better term, haha. While I'm not one of those SF elitists who think one game is **** compared to the other (nor do I think anyone else here who plays both is), having Ryu in the game does kinda bridge the gap between the two series, and it's fun and a bit liberating to refer to attacks by their "real" names when speaking to one another. But, as you said, this is a Smash game on a Smash board, so using Smash terms should be utilized more so for those who don't know what the FG terms are.

I agree on DP and True DP, but I think that tap tilt and hold tilt would be easier to understand since the input is described in the name. It's as intuitive as you can get.

Also, I understand and agree on your comment on the real terminology, so a smash - SF dictionary could be written by someone proficient in both languages. However, officially and for the guide I think we should use smash terminologies.

 

[meleebrawler]

Have you guys played with his Aerial FADC yet? This tool seems so ridiculous.

-Can be done multiple times in the air in both directions rapidly. This allows Ryu to completely change his air trajectory from his rigid jumping arc to a quick forward or backward.
-This can be very helpful when recovering, as it allows you to conserve your Tatsu and Jump while still getting closer to the stage
-Off a short hop, you can cross through any opponent with the forward or back air dash (though the tall characters have to be frame perfect). You can also start a few aerials (though the hitbox for none of them will come) though you can double jump right before hitting the ground
-Off a Full Jump, you can do any aerial (though to get the hitboxes for Bair and Dair to come out you gotta be fast). Bair's actually comes out about the perfect height to hit almost any opponent (some crouchers it does whiff on though), as well as Air Dodge, Jump
-You can chase a bit off stage doing this, while again conserving Tatsu and your Jump to get back to the stage. Just remember you still can't go that low and far or you'll likely die.
-While hanging on the ledge, if you drop down you can FADC dash on the stage and land very quickly. Not sure if it'd be faster than dropping down and jumping back on (it seems about the same time wise), however while you're holding the focus you can tank a hit, charge in, then likely attack, grab, or even focus again to tank a second hit and let it rip, as the landing lag from the air dash seems non existent.
-As mentioned, you can change your direction, this would likely allow you to break out of juggles fairly easy as you can focus, take a hit, and then dash away from there to get back to the neutral game.

If anyone has played Jr (or heck, just watched Tweek) I feel the AFADC will be a strong mix up and mobility tool, where you can vary your approaches often and quickly, while having the armor from the Focus Attack tank stray hits for you. If you actually hit the Focus Attack (like in an air to air situation) and still have your jump, you can even dash in and hit Uair or SRK (I think, need to test more, training mode at least says its cool).

Also slight probably placebo, but I THINK the back air dash goes slightly farther than the front air dash. It looks like to me the back air dash has a bit more of a slide when you land, but like I said, could just be placebo.



Id keep the terminology to what a Smash player can understand. Tap and Hold, not exactly sure what for specials, maybe special and input special? Iunno

You can use multiple tatsumakis in the air, there's just a fairly long delay after the move before you can use it again.
If you are hit after tatsumaki you most certainly can use it again.

Thought I'd pop in here one last time to share something kinda fun and pointless I discovered while messing around with Ryu's final smash. If he finds a target in the shin shoryuken hitbox and begins the animation, but during the windup animation his target leaves that hitbox, he'll do a weird multi-hit version of the regular shoryuken instead. I think it's supposed to be a whiff sequence, it is capable of hitting opponents but does rather underwhelming damage and knockback for a final smash.

Easiest way to set it up if you're curious is to grab a Mario in training mode and set him to ~335%, get a smash ball, and hit him with weak Utilt then spam B. If you get the Hadouken you're not hitting it fast enough.

Here's another quirk about Shin Shoryuken: if you get the sweetspot but don't KO the opponent you won't get the
yellow Street Fighter KKKKKOOOO flash at the end.

 

[icraq]

You can use multiple tatsumakis in the air, there's just a fairly long delay after the move before you can use it again.

Don't have a way to confirm this but experience has shown this to be untrue. You can only use Tatsu once after being ungrounded, and if you get hit you can use it once more.

 

[EternalFlame]

Have you guys played with his Aerial FADC yet? This tool seems so ridiculous.

-Can be done multiple times in the air in both directions rapidly. This allows Ryu to completely change his air trajectory from his rigid jumping arc to a quick forward or backward.
-This can be very helpful when recovering, as it allows you to conserve your Tatsu and Jump while still getting closer to the stage
-Off a short hop, you can cross through any opponent with the forward or back air dash (though the tall characters have to be frame perfect). You can also start a few aerials (though the hitbox for none of them will come) though you can double jump right before hitting the ground
-Off a Full Jump, you can do any aerial (though to get the hitboxes for Bair and Dair to come out you gotta be fast). Bair's actually comes out about the perfect height to hit almost any opponent (some crouchers it does whiff on though), as well as Air Dodge, Jump
-You can chase a bit off stage doing this, while again conserving Tatsu and your Jump to get back to the stage. Just remember you still can't go that low and far or you'll likely die.
-While hanging on the ledge, if you drop down you can FADC dash on the stage and land very quickly. Not sure if it'd be faster than dropping down and jumping back on (it seems about the same time wise), however while you're holding the focus you can tank a hit, charge in, then likely attack, grab, or even focus again to tank a second hit and let it rip, as the landing lag from the air dash seems non existent.
-As mentioned, you can change your direction, this would likely allow you to break out of juggles fairly easy as you can focus, take a hit, and then dash away from there to get back to the neutral game.

If anyone has played Jr (or heck, just watched Tweek) I feel the AFADC will be a strong mix up and mobility tool, where you can vary your approaches often and quickly, while having the armor from the Focus Attack tank stray hits for you. If you actually hit the Focus Attack (like in an air to air situation) and still have your jump, you can even dash in and hit Uair or SRK (I think, need to test more, training mode at least says its cool).

Also slight probably placebo, but I THINK the back air dash goes slightly farther than the front air dash. It looks like to me the back air dash has a bit more of a slide when you land, but like I said, could just be placebo.



Id keep the terminology to what a Smash player can understand. Tap and Hold, not exactly sure what for specials, maybe special and input special? Iunno

That Full jump option is really amazing, since there's not just A aerials, but specials too. Ryu can really mix things up via dashing one way, then tatsumaki another, etc.

One thing I still want confirmation on is that when we use the FA a second time right out of the forward dash, it seems it drops Ryu much faster than with the backdash version of it. If you drop much faster out of the forward dash version, that could lead to a nice mixup option or if you simply want a jail out for free card from this move.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been getting some good mileage out of FH -> FADC Forwards -> Nair / FF Nair -> stuff recently.

The FADC forwards provides sufficient horizontal momentum for Ryu to connect with a lot of his options as he Nairs into ground (confirm into F-Smash being my favorite).

I also like FH -> FADC as a spacing tool in neutral and when approaching.

 

[Elessar]

Yesterday while gathering data for my guide I found something really interesting. I tested everything on Mario in FD in multi-player, not in training, as to get the dmg as accurate as possible. At one out Mario was hanging from the Ledge and I tried to hit him with a dair from the stage and it spiked him. Apparently Ryu's dair can hit and spike opponents hanging from the Ledge. I was able to pull it off two times, and the timing is really strict. Can someone else verify this as well?

 

[Neo Zero]

Yesterday while gathering data for my guide I found something really interesting. I tested everything on Mario in FD in multi-player, not in training, as to get the dmg as accurate as possible. At one out Mario was hanging from the Ledge and I tried to hit him with a dair from the stage and it spiked him. Apparently Ryu's dair can hit and spike opponents hanging from the Ledge. I was able to pull it off two times, and the timing is really strict. Can someone else verify this as well?

You're certainly right about the timing being strict. Tried on a number of opponents and the best I could do was get the Dair to hit, but I could never once spike them. Will try more later.

 

[Deleted member]

IMO C-Stick is the best for Ryu's aerials (for those that don't C-Stick aerials already) because aerials with it ignore any SF inputs so you don't accidentally Tatsumaki if trying for a back air or something.

It also frees the control stick hand up a bit so that the SF inputs can be executed easier /buffered while the aerial is occurring.

 

[NofroTwist ProteinfartPie]

IMO C-Stick is the best for Ryu's aerials (for those that don't C-Stick aerials already) because aerials with it ignore any SF inputs so you don't accidentally Tatsumaki if trying for a back air or something.

It also frees the control stick hand up a bit so that the SF inputs can be executed easier /buffered while the aerial is occurring.

This.
Using C-stick for aerials has saved me from countless SDs.

Also, for those of you that didn't already know this, input srk is great for mahing out of multi hit jabs. I've been constantly using it to get out of Little Mac's jabs, which is really nice considering his jab combo is probably one of the best in the game.

 

[Elessar]

IMO C-Stick is the best for Ryu's aerials (for those that don't C-Stick aerials already) because aerials with it ignore any SF inputs so you don't accidentally Tatsumaki if trying for a back air or something.

It also frees the control stick hand up a bit so that the SF inputs can be executed easier /buffered while the aerial is occurring.

I also use cstick exclusively for aerials, it's so much better.

You're certainly right about the timing being strict. Tried on a number of opponents and the best I could do was get the Dair to hit, but I could never once spike them. Will try more later.

Might not be the timing, maybe the spacing, but I did get it to happen twice. Of this I'm sure. I'll lab it some more today after I finish the guide.

 

[Champ Gold]

I'm actually surprised Sakurai took out the Shoryuken shortcut that's been in Capcom fighters recently. I guess he wanted to make it authentic as possible to SF2.


I know there's the Smash input but the actual shortcut to do actual shoryukens is something I thought he'll put in as something for the 3DS control stick being well, not great

 

[mimgrim]

If you are talking about the down-forward, down, down-forward shortcut it can be done in Smash 4. You can also double tap down-forward twice as a shortcut.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Well then.

Also, how good is the kick the comes down after an Up Throw?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Down-throw also has some ridiculous base knockback against non-shielding opponents, but it has super short range and doesn't do much damage.

 

[Puttaters]

Ryu in my opinion has a bad match up against sword characters, especially Roy. All his fireballs are cancelled by a sword attack and his tatsu is easily countered with counter. He has to be up close to get combo confirms but a decent player will not allow that with d-tilt or jab for example. So basically from what I see right now is sword > fist.

 

[Kaladin]

So, Ryu's walk speed is exactly equal to the SV platform's move speed. Maybe we can do something with this. Easier platform pressure?

 

[Deleted member]

Ryu in my opinion has a bad match up against sword characters, especially Roy. All his fireballs are cancelled by a sword attack and his tatsu is easily countered with counter. He has to be up close to get combo confirms but a decent player will not allow that with d-tilt or jab for example. So basically from what I see right now is sword > fist.

I feel like it actually varies between characters.

In terms of Roy I don't feel like its horrible, I've played a number of Roy/Ryu matches recently and I've never felt like Roy just dominates Ryu in the MU, as a projection I would say that if it is in Roy's favor it is no worse than 60:40 in his favor at the absolute worst.

But as I was saying, I think it varies, switch Roy with Marth, for example, and I feel like it could be a completely different story because of the difference in spacing required for each of these characters.

Roy benefits in the MU (IMO) because he gets more damage at the hilt, and Ryu needs to get in that close if he wants to connect with things. On the other hand, Marth wants to keep a little space but Ryu can potentially force himself in pretty well. Granted, I've played only one Ryu/Marth and like 20-30 Ryu/Roy matches, so I can't speak too much about the differences, although I feel like Ryu may actually have the advantage, or at least break even with Marth, whereas he may break even at best against Roy.

I haven't played any Lucinas yet, but her performance in the MU is also up in the air since she doesn't require any spacing for damage bonuses at all, unlike Marth and Roy.

I think one of the major factors in general that will be bad for Ryu isn't specifically disjoints/disjointed priority from sword characters, but rather the ability of a character to keep Ryu out.

comes to mind because his projectiles can cover a lot of space and are decently spammable.

I feel like actually is a harder MU for than because IMO 's projectile game is better, but I digress.

----------

Also IMO Ryu shouldn't be throwing Tatsumakis out to the point that the player eating counters for it, unless they're trying to go across the stage with Tatsumaki to hit Roy I don't feel they should be eating counters too much.

 

[Kaladin]

So, interestingly enough, dash attack is safe on powershield, but not on normal shield, because it crosses up powershields.

 

[redcometchar]

Hey don't know if this was already mentioned but FA charge level 3 ignores shield.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey don't know if this was already mentioned but FA charge level 3 ignores shield.

Yes this has been known for a while.

------

Anyways,


A minor thing I noticed while toying with things the other day:

If you press jump (FH or SH, doesn't really matter) and then immediately input Focus Attack, Ryu will charge Focus Attack while slowly rising to the height of the full jump, which makes it a bit easier to make use of FADC at the top of a FH, which in turn can lead into Fair or Bair.

I mention that last little thing about Fair or Bair because an FADC at the top of a FH (forwards or backwards FADC) will leave just enough time for Ryu to throw out a Bair or Fair before landing.

So one scenario I've been thinking about a lot recently is FH FADC forwards, going just over the opponent and poking them with a Bair just as Ryu hits the ground. If you go just over the opponent, there is also the additional option (although the spacing is tighter) of going for a sourspot Fair (since the sourspot is approximately on Ryu's torso/back, horizontally speaking), which can then true combo into a sweetspot Fair, Uair, SH True SRK, U-Smash, Dair, Nair, Weak/Strong U-tilt, etc. depending on the %. At mid or higher % you can get all of the aforementioned options because sourspot Fair lifts the opponent just in front of Ryu, having low knockback scaling like a Dair on a grounded opponent although its scaling isn't quite as low as Dair. U-Smash will tend to sourspot as the % climbs because the opponent will be lifted to either just out of or to the tip of its reach.

Because the sourspot of Fair is actually a little behind Ryu you can do the same thing if you space a backwards FADC, earlier today I was playing with FH (height-wise, as in you can do this as long as you are at the equivalent to FH height or a bit higher) backwards FADC when just off the stage into a sourspot Fair coming back to the stage with Ryu in front of an opponent at the edge going into a SH Dair Spike.

It can be a bit tricky to connect with the sweetspot of Dair at lower percents and still have it be a true combo because Ryu has to be closer than for the Sourspot, although it works pretty well at higher percents.

I'll attempt visual aid for FADC distances out of FH and what the ideal spacing would be to get past the opponent and hit with a Bair out of FADC forwards and other stuff that I mentioned up there when I next get a chance to look at the distances in-game again.

All through the magic of MS Paint.

 

[Puttaters]

I feel like it actually varies between characters.

In terms of Roy I don't feel like its horrible, I've played a number of Roy/Ryu matches recently and I've never felt like Roy just dominates Ryu in the MU, as a projection I would say that if it is in Roy's favor it is no worse than 60:40 in his favor at the absolute worst.

But as I was saying, I think it varies, switch Roy with Marth, for example, and I feel like it could be a completely different story because of the difference in spacing required for each of these characters.

Roy benefits in the MU (IMO) because he gets more damage at the hilt, and Ryu needs to get in that close if he wants to connect with things. On the other hand, Marth wants to keep a little space but Ryu can potentially force himself in pretty well. Granted, I've played only one Ryu/Marth and like 20-30 Ryu/Roy matches, so I can't speak too much about the differences, although I feel like Ryu may actually have the advantage, or at least break even with Marth, whereas he may break even at best against Roy.

I haven't played any Lucinas yet, but her performance in the MU is also up in the air since she doesn't require any spacing for damage bonuses at all, unlike Marth and Roy.

I think one of the major factors in general that will be bad for Ryu isn't specifically disjoints/disjointed priority from sword characters, but rather the ability of a character to keep Ryu out.

comes to mind because his projectiles can cover a lot of space and are decently spammable.

I feel like actually is a harder MU for than because IMO 's projectile game is better, but I digress.

----------

Also IMO Ryu shouldn't be throwing Tatsumakis out to the point that the player eating counters for it, unless they're trying to go across the stage with Tatsumaki to hit Roy I don't feel they should be eating counters too much.

Nice analysis!