The 'Revamp A Veteran' Thread! This Week: Discussing YOSHI (new rules inside)

[DJ3DS]

I wouldn't not at all say that. Jumping is the one thing Mario is known for. And the punch part comes from punching blocks from underneath. I'd actually say it's the most canon move Mario has.

On reflection I'll concede that but I still believe the other specials are more interesting and help to reflect a larger part of Mario's history. Mario jumping feels represented enough by him, well...jumping.

 

[Quillion]

Is Diddy Kong still an active user? This thread should've switched topics by now.

It probably needs a new owner.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Is Diddy Kong still an active user? This thread should've switched topics by now.

It probably needs a new owner.

Calm your ****, I said every SUNDAY and today is not a Sunday for me. A couple of days without internet activity is by the way a HEALTHY thing to do, I recommend it

That being said, I will change the character of the week tomorrow. If you didn't vote for a character yet, and you posted up moveset suggestions for Mario you still may. I'll probably change the topic title within 15 hours of time.

 

[Diddy Kong]

We had a close call on the votes, two votes for Sonic, Kirby, Ganondorf and Samus and three for Zelda. So right now, we'll discuss the new moveset options for the Princess of Hyrule, Goddess Hylia's incarnation, ZELDA!

Current vote rankings:

2 votes:
1 vote:

Remember, these votes carry over to this upcoming week and a vote only counts with contribution to the thread

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Zelda's primary means of attack should be archery. This is her most consistent contribution in the franchise, and this is utilized well in Hyrule Warriors.

Good archery attacks combined with Farore's Wind teleportation (which should resemble the badass version in Project M) would make for a formidable character.

I would like Din's Fire to have a massive overhaul, if it remains. A larger explosion would make more sense canonically.

I haven't played BotW yet, so I will probably avoid this thread for the remainder of the week, but I vote for Kirby again.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Archery? Seems reasonable honestly but there's a lot which they could use for Zelda. Personally I always wanted TP Zelda with the rapier she uses in the cutscene and also eventually used in Warriors. But this oppertunity has been passed.

Light Arrows as a Final Smash also seem extremely reasonable and I don't really see a reason to have this changed, only visually maybe.

I grew quite attached to the Godess Spells as her Specials especially since Skyward Sword where it's established that Zelda = Hylia. So her having the Spells of the other Godesses is extremely fitting even if they don't necessarily act like in Ocarina of Time. The Phantom Slash was a cute idea, but executed poorly. It should give her better walling options and it should be able to be used to cancel out projectiles (as say, Samus' Charge Shot or Missiles or Mewtwo's Shadow Ball) and as an approach option. She should definitely be less vurnable to projectiles than she currently is.

Her design is pretty damn poorly done cause of her being balanced innitially with having Sheik as part of HER moveset. Obviously this has resulted in people just sticking with Sheik and never switching between the characters at all, but it's weird that even with the separation, Zelda is still balanced statistically as Sheik's opposite which has lead for Sheik being the best character during most of Smash 4's lifespan and Zelda the absolute worst, which was also the case in Brawl.

People have argued that BotW Zelda, the version we're just about 97% are guranteed to get, should use the Champion Abilities or the Sheikah Slate abilities in her moveset. Am not 100% convinced that's a good option for her, but if you guys can make a good moveset out of it, am all ear.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I want a whole breath of the wild upgrade, using familiar attacks alongside new ones, using the champion abilities as her new specials, it only seems natural to once again use spells that link did, much like the goddess abilities she used to use.

Jab - Stays the same, sparkles are replaced with streaks of light magic ala BOTW
Side tilt - Same as jab
Up tilt - Same as jab
Down tilt - Stays the same as the original

Side smash - She shoots a beam of light from her hands similar to the one that she hit Ganon in OoT with, has decent range (think the length of bowser) and is pretty quick but isn’t very powerful.

Up smash - She raises her hand and summons a large triforce image above her head and slightly around her. A slow but powerful kill move similar to lucas’ up smash. The move resembles when Zelda does the same thing during her fight against Ganon in BOTW.

Down smash - Zelda ducks down slightly and waves her hands around her body, close to the ground in a circular motion, it’s the quickest of he smash attacks and behaves similarly to her current one.

Neutral air - Similar to her current one, replacing the sparkles with streaks of light magic.
Forward and Back air - Still lighting kicks although they are much faster with significantly less ending lag and landing lag, the sourspotted version does slighly more damage and knockback while the sweetspotted version does significantly less damage and knockback. Closer to her melee kicks but not quite as powerful and definitely not as quick.
Down air - Stays the same
Up air - Resembling her old up smash, she waves her hand above her head several times, emitting light magic from it. It’s a multi-hitting move similar to Palutena’s.

Neutral Special: Light Arrow - A powerful projectile which can be aimed in any direction using the analog stick, it travels in a straight line but has minimal range unless charged, charging to max takes significantly longer than link’s bow.

Up Special: Revali’s gale - A chargeable move which sends Zelda up with a gust of wind, she is sent higher depending on the charge. She has some slight control over the direction she moves in during it but she doesn’t move very much horizontally during it. It also has the effect of blowing away opponents but does no damage. Revali’s spirit appears during it just like in game

Side Special: Daruk’s Protection - Zelda creates a translucent red crystalline barrier around her like in BOTW, the barrier can be held for about a second and any attack that hits her during that time will be nullified, giving Zelda the opportunity to retaliate as Daruk’s spirit soaks up the damage.

Down Special: Urbosa’s Fury - Zelda begins to charge up creating a barrier around her, the longer the charge is held, the larger the barrier. Any opponent caught within the barrier with be struck with lighting deal damage to them and stunning them for a short period, giving Zelda time to retaliate.

Final Smash: Sealing Power - Zelda first begins to glow with a golden light she then raises her hand and creates a giant triforce from it, she then creates a giant ball of light in front her, trapping opponents caught in it as it grows. The ball then explodes, sending her opponents flying. Directly references what she did to Ganon in BOTW.

(Her up smash would also kinda look like this but smaller obvi)

Taunt 1 - Zelda puts her hands together, bows her head and closes her eyes as if she were praying.
Taunt 2 - Zelda looks at and moves her hand around as the triforce symbol appears on it and it glows with light
Taunt 3 - Zelda puts her hands together, opening them to reveal a frog, she then takes a second to inspect it, bouncing it in her hands before she puts her hands back together and it disappears again.

Stage entrance - Zelda flies onto the stage as what looks like a golden ball of light, the light then dissipates, revealing her. Like she does when she appears during BOTW’s final boss.

Costume 1 - Zelda’s default blue shirted outfit from Breath of the Wild
Costume 2 - References Urbosa, featuring red hair with a black, blue red and gold top and blue pants
Costume 2 - References Mipha, with red hair and a red, white and blue outfit
Costume 3 - References Revali, her hair becomes blue and her outfit becomes red with white pants
Costume 4 - References Daruk, her hair becomes white while her outfit becomes white, brown and blue.
Costume 5 - References Zelda’s appearance in Twilight Princess with a purple tunic and white pants, as well as brown hair
Costume 6 - References Zelda’s appearance in Ocarina of Time, with a pink and white outfit
Costume 7 - A black outfit with grey hair like in Zelda’s previous Smash appearances
Costume 8 - Zelda’s white dress outfit as seen multiple times throughout Breath of the Wild

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I'm big on not changing movesets too much, and Zelda's always been my second. I've never cared much about tiers, but it'd be cool to give her a few boosts. That is Smash's main problem - it will always favor faster, less powerful characters since they have better approach options.

I also like transformations, so I'd bring it back, but I'd want them fixed so it can be used as a strategy. If Zelda got the raw power, you could approach as Shiek, transform, hit them hard, and get out.

Here's a list of changes I'd make:

Aesthetics:

• Zelda gets her royal gown from BotW (Her 'Shiek' form is the adventuring outfit with pants like in the art)
• One of Zelda's alternates gives her the white prayer gown from BotW, and Shiek gets a Kakariko Villager outfit
• Zelda gets a rapier

Normal Attacks:

• For the most part, these remain the same. Damage output and knockback is increased for all normals. Shiek's is decreased. Thus, Zelda is useful for powerful attacks, and Shiek for trapping combos
• Zelda's tilt attacks use a rapier, giving them a bit of extra reach. Her smashes and kicks keep the magic.
• Lightning Kick sourspot is smaller, and sweetspot is made bigger.

Specials:

• Zelda keeps the Goddess specials from before.
• Din's Fire explodes immediately in a large fireball, which makes it harder to avoid. It also moves faster.
• DIN'S FIRE DOES NOT PUT HER INTO FREE FALL!!!
• Transform returns. The move can be done on the ground, in the air, wherever, and makes the user briefly invulnerable. Both characters are loaded simultaneously, so the transformation is instant.

 

[Luminario]

I'm really not fond of the idea of changing any of her specials that aren't Phantom Slash. The Goddess Spells as a concept work really well together, it's just terrible balancing and a lack of foresight into how Zelda should be played that was the biggest problem. Now that BotW introduced her Power of Sealing that can work in many different ways as a replacement to Phantom Slash to compliment the rest of her moveset, hopefully as a trap.
Her normals however, can all go. Having such a situational aerial for fair and bair is a bad idea, and most of her attacks are pretty boring for a spellcaster as they're simply her hands or feet imbued with magic. The only ones that really stand out are Fsmash and uair.
I'd like to see more disjoints in her moveset. Up smash all the way back in Melee should have been the animation from OoT where Zelda summons her 7th Sage powers and creates a ball of light over her head. Both ftilt and utilt could create slashes of light that travel forwards for a second. Fair can be what ftilt is now, since we only need a single Lightning Kick.
Oh and I vote Samus next.

 

[Morbi]

I forced myself to play Zelda back in Melee, but predominately switched to Sheik, and well, I did precisely the same for Brawl. I still used her, especially to mix it up and I found it much easier, when I was not great at either game, to use Zelda for kill moves and Sheik for building percent. Once they separated her, Zelda has, perhaps, become my least played character not counting the Mii Fighters. It also took a bit of fun away from Sheik, if you ask me. Especially after the nerfs. I digress, if they keep the goddess spells and do not change normals, I very much want the transformation mechanic to come back exclusively for her because their game balance was tied to it and Sakurai did a piss poor job of separating them.

However, the alternative that sounds much more fun after over fifteen years of Zelda is to bring the champion abilities into her move-set. Ideally while changing her normals, naturally. Just a complete rework because her design was always a failure. They already have to change her model completely as is. So why not just go the extra mile?

Another idea is to incorporate the champion abilities passively and keep the goddess spells as the primary specials. Not sure if that would be too gimmicky, but it would really sell the mage idea and we would not lose the core that made Smash Zelda... Smash Zelda.

 

[SorrowOfAcheron]

Voting Ganondorf.

For Zelda's moveset, I honestly can't say much. I have yet to play BotW and the only Zelda games I have completed are Minish Cap and ALBW (just two days ago).

But I'm hoping we get the BotW look. Keeping her appearance in mind, I think this would help to create a faster, more battle-oriented character.

Tilts:
Jab - Same as now. Maybe make a second button press have strong knockback, like a weaker Ganondorf jab.

Up - Same as now, make it look a bit more forceful.

Side - Same as now. Pressing the button twice creates a weaker light magic hitbox. If anyone's familiar with Martyr Logarius from Bloodborne, his sword attacks create slashes of energy that appear after the initial swing. Like this:

​

Down - Same as now. Looks less like it's hindered by a skirt.


Aerials:
Neutral - Nayru's Love. Similar to old move, but reflection hitbox doesn't last as long. Instead of being multi-hit, it is similar to a sex kick, with the weaker hitbox indicating when the reflective properties run out. Now looks more like light magic and instead of appearing like fragmented diamonds, has a more 'whole' appearance. Begins to crack when weak hitbox is initiated.

Forward - Lightning Kick. Stays the same. Landing lag reduced, sweetspot slightly increased in size.

Back - Her old Up air. Explosive shock wave that pops Zelda a bit towards the opposite direction it is used it. Think of Melee Marth aerial Dancing Blade. Obviously not as spammable mid-air.

Down - The same as now, but if Zelda hits an opponent with the sweetspot, she leaps off them a small distance.

Up - Waves her arm in a semi-circle above her to create a light barrier. The arm hitbox deals good damage, and leaves a lingering hitbox through the area she swept.


Smashes:
Side - Similar to what MoonlitIllusion suggested, but it's more of a light shockwave than a beam.

Up and Down - What MoonlitIllusion suggested. I really like Zelda's current down Smash and the angle it launches it. Changing it a light circle animation sounds great.

Specials:
Neutral - Urbosa's Fury. Charges up and can be stored; has three levels:
- Level 1: Creates a lightning shockwave around her, small. Causes a stun effect.
- Level 2: Creates 2 shockwaves in succession; the second extends further from her body than the first.
- Level 3: Creates 3 shockwaves in succession; has the longest reach.
Picture them as Tabuu's supersonic waves from Brawl, except the 2nd & 3rd don't originate from Zelda but appear around her. Zelda can't move while she releases this attack.

Side - Light Arrow. Another chargeable attack. Flies straight, does not lose altitude and goes through enemies. If it is charged more than 75% of the way, it will reduce the walk, run and air speed of those hit, as well as increasing their fall speed for 2 seconds.

Down - Daruk's Protection. Zelda CHARGES yet again to use this move, and it has three levels. You can't store this charge; shielding will cancel it.
- Level 1: Coats Zelda in a brownish transparent coating, mitigating 8% flat damage for 4 seconds. Takes 2 seconds to charge.
- Level 2: The coating is now translucent; mitigates 16% flat damage for the same duration. Takes 4 seconds to charge.
- Level 3: Becomes similar to a metal character, but made of bronze (whatever material Daruk's Protection looks like), mitigating 24% flat damage and reducing all knockback by 25% for 6 seconds, but also increasing your fall speed to metal character levels for that duration.
- Note: All effects end if damage thresholds are met/surpassed. Animation for this could be like it is in BotW, shattering.

Up - Revali's Gale. Chargeable mo- You can get the ability to cast this 3 times before you go into free fall. Getting hit while in free fall does not restore Revali's Gale.
Activating it causes a strong gust of wind to travel towards the desired destination after a brief delay. Travels farther if it is aimed anywhere but directly upwards (cause Zelda won't have the Paraglider). So to recover from low areas, you'd kinda go zig-zag or zig-zig-zag.
Zelda can act out of the first two gusts with aerials, specials and her double jump, but air-dodging during the first or second gusts will render the rest of the casts unusable. Air dodging out of the third cast will still put you into free fall.

I got the 3 charge levels/3 casts gimmick from the fact that the Champion abilities can be cast 3 times before going on cooldown (or so I've read).

Final Smash
Sealing Power, like MoonlitIllusion said. I don't really know how this works but looks like a massive explosion so why not?

And that's it.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I don't think any character is going to get revamped too heavily, but if anyone needs it, it is definitely Zelda. As someone who plays as Zelda regularly since Melee, I really want her to get heavily buffed and away from being in the bottom tier. I think the goddess powers could be replaced by the champion abilities or at least be custom moves, though I don't know how Mipha's Grace can function as a strong healing move could be too OP, but I like the idea of Zelda using light arrows as one of her specials.

My vote is on Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda's biggest issues are her poor mobility, inability to force approaches to get around this, and unreliable finishers that are supposed to make up for this. Her moveset just doesn't work... at all. She needs a complete rework. If we're doing a BOTW redesign for both Link and Zelda, then their specials will most likely change to the Champion abilites and the Sheikah Slate modules. Each character has claims to both, but in the end I have to give Zelda the Champion powers and Link the Sheikah Slate because they fit more with their design motifs. The Champion abilities are inherently magical in nature and therefore lend themselves to Zelda (this is important when looking at the rest of her moveset), while the Sheikah Slate is primarily used for helping Link explore, which is kind of the main thing behind the series. I used to think these would be distributed the other way around for canonical reasons (ex: Link is a Champion), but this thread made me think about it further. Without further adieu, here's my take on Zelda's specials:

Spoiler: Champion Abilities

Neutral Special, Daruk's Protection: Zelda creates a red barrier around her for a split second. If attatcked, Daruk appears and stuns the enemy. Also reflects projectiles. Acts as a parry of sorts rather than a traditional counter.

Side Special, Urbosa's Fury: Charge move that summons lightning in front of Zelda. Stuns enemies as Urbosa watches. Longer charge = more damage, longer stun time, larger hitbox.

Down Special, Mipha's Grace: Mipha heals Zelda for ~25% when charged. Only two ways to charge it are by either netting a KO or losing a stock yourself. Fails if Mipha's Grace isn't charged.

Up Special, Revali's Gale: Chargeable. Revali summons a thin updraft to lift Zelda off the ground. Zelda doesn't use a paraglider so she can't do much afterwards. Other players and items can use the updraft before it disappears.

On to addressing the main problems with her moveset (poor mobility/inability to force approaches/unreliable finishers). Since Zelda is rocking her BOTW design, it's the possible she ditches the dress altogether and gains a bit of movement speed in the process. Personally I think she'll keep a dress since it just feels like to much of a departure from previous incarnations to get rid of it. With that in mind, she has to be built in a way to circumvent her poor mobility by improving on her other two big issues. The easiest way to let her force approaches and gain an upper hand would be to give her more range on her moves. Seriously, is she even trying with that down tilt? The most representative possibilities for a range increase would be by using some combination of using light arrows, longer ranged magic, and her rapier for her normals. Those all happen to have one thing in common: they all use light. So now there's a clear concept to work with, something along the lines of a Light Priestess. This works well to help offset her poor mobility, as light based attacks would have good frame data, at least on startup.

On to the moveset: Zelda wouldn't use the light rapier for too many moves. She's focused on using light magic so it's kind of tacky to overuse a sword, even if it is made of light. I like the idea someone posted about it being used solely for tilts: something along the lines of a couple of slashes in quick succession to make an X shape for a Ftilt, a swipe along the ground for a Dtilt, and a few quick upwards thrusts for a Utilt. She kinda needs the fast, long ranged, and disjointed hitbox the rapier offers on her tilts to circumvent her mobility issues. The up and down smashes can use a combination of light magic and triforce imagery, think the stuff from her Hyrule Warriors moveset (and since it's Warriors we're talking about, they'd have larger hitboxes and more visual flair). To get around her inability to force approaches, she'd need a projectile (light arrows). Her forward smash is the prime candidate for this. I would've mapped the light arrows to a special and axed Mipha's Grace but I think we'll see all four Champion abilities since none of them stand out from the others. The light arrow would be a fast, decently ranged projectile that stuns the opponent for a bit before launching. All of these attributes would increase with charge, but it would have to be weak for a smash attack with the expected amount of lag. The rest of her moves can remain largely the same, except with the pale yellow light magic effects (and the frame data buffs that come with it) instead. Throw in a few range buffs on stuff like Nair and make her sweetspots a bit more forgiving and call it a day. Maybe change forward air to make it a more visually appealing light magic move but that's not necessary.

Oh yeah, she'd need a new Final Smash. Just do the sealing thing since it plays into her whole priestess motif.

So how do these changes address her problems? While she's still really bad in the movement department, she can circumvent this much better than before. A reliable projectile in her forward smash helps her force approaches far better than Din's Fire ever did, while she still has a reflector. Her forward smash, along with Urbosa's Fury, have stun effects that help her land her KO moves that she struggled to get before. Her other smashes have larger hitboxes as well, making them easier to land. Overall she has better frame data and range too, so she can make the most of the engagements she finds herself in. Basically I tried to mitigate her big weaknesses that aren't mobility.

Nominating Dark Pit.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'd like to see the Light Arrows begun to be incorporated into her regular moveset, and have her Final Smash be that giant spirit bomb that she uses.

Also, let's update that Phantom Slash. It was stated that the Phantom Slash is using Dark power. Zelda never uses dark magic. That defeats the whole purpose. Also, to make it better we're going to change it from the Phantom Slash to the Guardian Strike.

No, no, not those Guardians. These Guardians:

Spoiler: Silent Realm Earth Guardian

As we know, these Earth Guardians are much LARGER than Phantoms. We also know these are holy constructs of the Goddess Hylia, so it makes more sense for Zelda to be attacking with them.

Spoiler: Don't piss these guys off...

Due to the Earth Guardian's size being superior to the Phantom's size, it has a much larger hitbox, deals more damage and knockback, and they take more damage before "crumbling." They also wall off the enemy from Zelda better. I'd have Zelda put her hand forward and the Silent Realm rune projects out like a magic circle in front of her:

Spoiler: Design of the rune, but slightly less than half the size

And the Guardian will appear out from it. This will prevent other characters whom are too close to Zelda to bypass the Guardian when it appears. They'll all be pushed away from her.

Just a small idea for now. I nominate:

 

[Diddy Kong]

By the current votes, Ganondorf is very likely to be the next character of the week.

I think Zelda got voted here because her moveset is extremely lackluster, both in function and representation. Which is all the more ironic because Sheik is almost shoehorned into Smash because of her moveset's effectiveness, thus gaining popularity.

Anyway, good suggestions yet again. Keep it up!

 

[Quillion]

First off, I need to apologize to Diddy Kong for being rude; I didn't see the post where they said that the thread would be updated every Sunday.

Back on topic, I'd like to say that I'm more in line with CaptainAmerica 's idea of changing characters as little as possible. So my idea with Zelda is to change her physical animations as little as possible.

However, I would definitely like to make her into another "projectile normal" character like Mega Man and Mii Gunner. Again, her physical animations can stay the same, but her magic sparks would become projectiles as opposed to just effects. Projectiles should be added to:

• Jab
• F-tilt
• F-Smash
• U-tilt
• U-Smash
• U-air

The only major change I would make is to change F-air from a Lightning Kick to her shooting sparks out of her hands at a downward angle.

By giving her projectile normals, this would enhance her current position as a defensive keep-away Glass Cannon instead of having to revamp her to be a more aggressive Glass Cannon like Mewtwo.

Speaking of projectile normals, I nominate Samus, partly because I think Ganondorf is a dead horse at this point.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Zelda, Zelda, Zelda. I... can't really think of much to say about her.

Well, going off the fact Link now is sporting his Breath of the Wild look, it's a forgone conclusion that Zelda will take her appearance from that game as well. This will also likely affect her moveset a bit, but I don't even want to begin thinking about what will replace what, so I'll do what CaptainAmerica and Quillion did and present my changes under the impression that her attacks stay overall the same. So, with that in mind, here's some balance adjustments I'd do to boost her viability.

Spoiler: My personal changes to Zelda's moveset

General

• Dashing speed has been further increased (1.3 → 1.36), as has her air speed (1.04 → 1.07), to help her miserable approach a bit more.
  
  
• Midair jump height marginally increased (31.552761 → 32), placing it on par with Cloud and Villager’s midair jumps.

Ground Attacks

• Being the slowest jab in the game and not even providing much utility to make up for it, I chopped some frames off the start up (Frame 11 → 7). It’s animation was altered a bit, based off of Parasoul’s standing neutral in Skullgirls (but this is purely cosmetic)
  
  
• Forward tilt’s body hitbox from Melee and Brawl (the one that sent opponents upwards) has been re-added, thus giving the move more utility and removing the small blind spot near her torso. It has more range too.
  
  
• Dash attack’s sourspot has been removed, giving her a more consistent KOing option. It has more range too. Some more of her attacks posses more range, like her forward smash.

• The range nerf to down smash has been reverted, and it’s leg is intangible again like in Brawl.

Air Attacks

• Neutral aerial has had it’s landing lag reduced (19 frames → 12)
  
  
• Zelda’s Lighting Kicks both can auto-cancel in a short hop. This was done because she needed a very powerful pressure option. They both have slightly larger sweetspots, too.

Special moves

• Nayru’s Love has faster start up (Frame 13 → 10) and ending lag (FAF 60 → 56), and has more range now. It also has a slightly strengthened stall effect in midair.
  
  
• Din’s Fire has had it’s unnecessary nerfs from Brawl reverted (but the consistent hit of the Brawl version has been strengthened to be as strong as the sweetspot in SSB4). Plus, it no longer leaves her helpless in midair. I am baffled as to how this feature has stayed in for 3 straight Smash games. Also, she sends out the projectile faster (the projectile also explodes faster)
  
  
• Zelda can now move to the side as soon as Farore’s Wind ends, rather than a full second after. There is absolutely no reason why you should miss recoveries you clearly should have made because you couldn’t move to the side fast enough.

• Phantom Slash's charge can now be stored.

So, basically, I undid a few nerfs from Melee and Brawl, and I tried to address her crippling flaws in other ways by boosting the options she has to play keep-away and overall make her a more consistent and effective precision defensive zoner, a bit like Parasoul from Skullgirls. Now, feel free to yell at me. I love destructive criticism.

(Oh, nearly forgot, I'll nominate DK one more time, because I've already come up with plenty for him)

 

[Diddy Kong]

First off, I need to apologize to Diddy Kong for being rude; I didn't see the post where they said that the thread would be updated every Sunday.

Back on topic, I'd like to say that I'm more in line with CaptainAmerica 's idea of changing characters as little as possible. So my idea with Zelda is to change her physical animations as little as possible.

However, I would definitely like to make her into another "projectile normal" character like Mega Man and Mii Gunner. Again, her physical animations can stay the same, but her magic sparks would become projectiles as opposed to just effects. Projectiles should be added to:

• Jab
• F-tilt
• F-Smash
• U-tilt
• U-Smash
• U-air

The only major change I would make is to change F-air from a Lightning Kick to her shooting sparks out of her hands at a downward angle.

By giving her projectile normals, this would enhance her current position as a defensive keep-away Glass Cannon instead of having to revamp her to be a more aggressive Glass Cannon like Mewtwo.

Speaking of projectile normals, I nominate Samus, partly because I think Ganondorf is a dead horse at this point.

No offense taken, I get your enthusiastic about the topic's intention. Guess that's a good sign as a whole. Don't let it refrain from posting here any less.

I also agree fully with your concept here. Zelda indeed needs range buffs to compensate for everything else she lacks. No Sakurai, Lightning Kicks' offensive powers aren't helping her. And it's obvious that by design, she shouldn't be a fast character either, or all about offensive.

Though, a few buffs in those areas might just work. I agree with you, Zelda is as a concept a Defensive Glass Canon, and her being more like Mewtwo would be a diservice. I also don't think that's the way to go for her. Plus in the Zelda games, she always assisted Link with ranged attacks, be it magic or the Light Arrows.

If they are gonna keep the Goddess Spells, which I think I slightly prefer over the other options as am still 1001% certian this is gonna be BOTW Zelda- they need a huge buff yet again. In each and every game I think that they've done a good job to buff the spells, but by raw frame data and overall utility, this always proofs dissapointing. Nayru's Love should also be used to protect against physical attacks for example, Din's Fire needs to be more effective overall and faster maybe with a bigger explosion / hitbox as well and Faore's Wind needs less end lag when used on the ground. I think those are already marginable improvements that would help her a lot.

Also, BOTW Zelda is significantly shorter than TP Zelda, so that could also be sort of an advantage.

 

[PeridotGX]

So has the new week started?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Excuse me for the delay. Yes the new week starts now and ends next Wednesday.

Character of the week till Wednesday is...GANONDORF! The Great King of Evil.

If there will be delays in the future, I'll make sure that we discuss the next character at least one week.

Nominations will be counted tomorrow.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Mix the sword and magic versions here: https://smashboards.com/threads/pro...e-asking-questions-or-making-requests.417563/

Nominate Kirby

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mix the sword and magic versions here: https://smashboards.com/threads/pro...e-asking-questions-or-making-requests.417563/

Nominate Kirby

Sorry not enough of a contribution to earn a vote.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Sorry not enough of a contribution to earn a vote.

Well the only problem I have with that moveset is the way the hovering works. I would have it still work while off the edge, but he can't move around except to change direction, and the only move he can use out of it is the Dead Man's Volley, and if he gets hit by a reflection of that move, he falls helpless.

 

[Luminario]

I just wish Ganny-poo was a little more aesthetically pleasing. His run, up smash, up tilt, and various other attacks just don't look like they suit him all that well.
His run should be a slow hover with his arms crossed, up smash should be a pillar of dark fire, up tilt should have a rising animation followed by Ganny punching the ground hard like in the beginning on the OoT fight, and things like nair and uair should use the sword.
For specials, Dead Man's Volley is probably an attack that has sailed it's course already, but I still hold out hope. I don't really have any other ideas for specials, just that side B should stay. It's a ***** to get grabbed by it, but damn, does it suit him.
Seeing as how we're potentially going down the road of BotW redesigns, Ganny can go a few different ways. He could get an Ancient Armour redesign to reference Calamity Ganon or the Gerudo Voe outfit to reference his Gerudo backstory. A rather 'out there' idea could be to remove the overly evil motif he's gone for these past few games and allow him to use Urbosa's lightning powers throughout his moveset but that's unlikely and probably won't go down well with his fans.
I'm not really expecting any actual changes to his playstyle, especially not when he doesn't actually appear in BotW to gain any new material that suits him. I guess he'll forever be condemned to be a slower Cpt Falcon.

I vote Robin next. I'd like to see how people think they could be improved.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganondorf is a weird one. He's not as similar to Falcon as he used to be and has some signature moves that showcase his brute force like Ftilt, Fair, Flame Choke, and Dair that befit the owner of the Triforce of Power. But then you have those dumb animations like his Jab, run, and a few of his throws that look really wimpy and uncharacteristic. A few of his other Falcondorf moves are alright, but could still use a change to be better, less generic, and/or less weird looking. Like seriously, the premise of his Up Tilt works, but why is he so flexible? As for magic/sword attacks, I personally wouldn't want him to use too many primarily magic-based attacks outside of Dead Man's Volley. That kind of thing better fits Pig/Classic Ganon imo, although adding magic effects to stuff life Fair is definitely on the table. Since he's more about brute force (and I don't want to change him *that* much), adding a sword to a few of his moves is a better way to go about changing him, especially if they all have lightning effects for style + hitting shields safely. If we're going to accept that he's slow he has to compensate by having a really strong up close game, so having safer hits on shield is even more of a plus. He needs better frame data in general too.

So here's a list of everything I'd change, with reasoning, whether it's purely aesthetic or to balance him:

Spoiler: Changes

Run Animation: This just looks dumb. He's like an old man trying to powerwalk. Either make it more kingly or have him float with his arms crossed.

Neutral Special: So while Warlock Punch is definitely cool, this is the best spot to give him Dead Man's Volley. Playing energy tennis is unique enough, but he also needs a projectile since he can't approach with that speed.

Up Special: Nothing wrong with the attack itself, but it's really weak. It definitely needs more power behind it.

Down Special: Give Ganondorf back the ability to regain his double jump. It definitely fits him more than Falcon, and his recovery needs a boon anyway.

Jab: This looks so wimpy for something coming from the king of evil. Make it a short elbow -> a horizontal sword swipe from his TP fight.

Up Tilt: Is Ganondorf a gymnast? Keep the move itself the same, but change the animation to that thing he does in his Ocarina fight where he floats a bit before slamming his fist into the ground, creating a big shockwave.

Down Tilt: Getting on the ground doesn't suit a king like him, and Ganondorf needs more combo starters instead of relying solely on reads. Give Ganondorf a sword combo starter here.

Forward Smash: Make it a sword swipe/stab to increase its range and differentiate him from Falcon.

Up Smash: Again, the move is fine, but I refuse to accept that Ganondorf can move his legs like that. Keep the attack the same, but make it a diagonal sword slash instead of a kick.

Down Smash: The kicks are generic and don't fit. I'd make him punch the ground to summon some dark energy shockwaves to make it more unique, and hopefully less laggy.

Neutral Air: The kicks don't suit him. I'd change this to a diagonally downwards sword swipe in front of him, followed by one behind him. It'd be much better for poking shields than the current one.

Forward Air: Make it autocancel out of a fullhop.

Back Air: This animation is a remnant of Falcon's moveset. I'd make it a backwards elbow since he likes to throw those.

Down Air: Make it autocancel out of a shorthop.

Grab: He's not even trying! Change the animation so he doesn't have T-Rex arms, and definitely make it less laggy.

Forward Throw & Up Throw: They don't look powerful enough. Add more force behind them. Also, he needs a kill throw, so if one of these was to use a sword, it'd fit perfectly.

Nominating Dark Pit.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Well the only problem I have with that moveset is the way the hovering works. I would have it still work while off the edge, but he can't move around except to change direction, and the only move he can use out of it is the Dead Man's Volley, and if he gets hit by a reflection of that move, he falls helpless.

Changed my mind about this. He should be able to use his up special out of hover, or there's almost no reason to ever hover.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Again, not a fan of huge changes, but the 'Dorf needs something. Loads of references from his HW kit here

Aesthetics:

• Give him the HW look. Or something based on BotW, as long as it involves long, bright red hair. That look is incredible.
• Demonic sword (or Ancient sword to match aesthetic) in his hand
• Run animation becomes a slow float. He stands mostly upright and speed doesn't change, but that'd fix a lot.
• Fix the model to look menacing and not derpy

Normal Attacks:

• Normal attacks replaced with sword slashes, but similar effects to current.
• uTilt has an animation similar to Ike's eruption. Someone did have the idea of him twirling the sword as it charged, which gave him a bit of a protective hitbox, before stabbing down, which I really like.
• fSmash becomes the Sparta Kick (current fTilt)
• Aerials mostly stay the same

Special Moves:

• Add a magic projectile to neutral b (see 0:25 in the video)
• side special stays as is
• uSpecial keeps a rise-and-fall mechanic similar to Dedede's (see 1:29 in the video)
• dSpecial summons a demon (see 0:45 in the video)

Final smash ends up being a Giga-Bowser-esque transformation, where he turns into Ganon, who has the same moveset but more powerful (and faster) moves

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Changed my mind about this. He should be able to use his up special out of hover, or there's almost no reason to ever hover.

Another idea how his hover could work: he can move horizontally freely, but he can only use Dead Man's Volley, his ground slam, or his up b out of it. Using Dead Man's Volley immobilizes him until it hits a stage/hazard or a character. Using the other two moves or being hit while hovering puts him in a helpless state.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I have a whole post on the Ganondorf thread entailing my ideas for the character, but I'm gung-ho for an entirely revamped and unique moveset that involves weaponry and magic that gives Ganondorf the range and utility he desperately needs for his character and for his gameplay. Personally, I prefer him use the trident, but whatever form they give him I hope they give him the weapon of that form.

If they do make either a Calamity Ganondorf, or perhaps even a Breath of the Wild Gerudo Ganondorf, I hope he receives a weapon befitting his style. Ganondorf does tend to lean on the sword-y side of things.

I'll leave a moveset I had posted on that thread.

Before Sm4sh came out, or at least revealed Ganondorf as a character, I had come up with a perfectly-Ganon/dorf type of moveset that could give him the power he's known for, a little bit of magic, and some extra range in his attacks.

Basically, forget giving him swords. Give him HIS TRIDENT!

He may retain some of his more fitting moves from Brawl and Sm4sh, but the rest of his attacks change. Let me go into my ideas, I'll try to use some images as visual aid if I can.

Ganondorf, in whatever appearance he may take, calmly stands at the ready with the trident held in his right hand. It matches him it length.

(Credits to ZeldAnime, OniChild, and Crazyfreak for this insane artwork of Ganon. Imagine the Trident in his right hand, however.)

Standard Attack (Jab): With his unarmed left hand, he calmly thrusts his palm out forward and bats away foes in close range with an electric shock. A.K.A. His Melee jab.

Up Strong Attack (Up-tilt): His current up-tilt, the Volcano Kick. Honestly, this move is just too amazing to lose. It may stand. Give it some super armor, forcing the foe to evade instead of trying to hit Ganon out of the attempt. The vacuum effect is still present.

Down Strong Attack (Down-tilt): His current down-tilt, where he extends his foot and just kicks the crap outta whatever might be in front of him.

Forward Strong Attack (Forward-tilt): SPARTA KICK. Yes, this can stay too.

Dash Attack: He thrusts the trident forward, like his dash attack with a Beam Sword.

Forward Smash: Ganondorf grips the trident with both hands and performs a large, and surprisingly not slow, overhead swing with the trident.

Up Smash: He twirls the trident above his head as a multiple hitting attack that draws foes in, but then he stops it and slams the bottom of the pole into the ground, causing a small explosion of dark energy to shoot out of the prongs at the top as the launching hit.

(Yes, I just borrowed Mercy from Overwatch, but you get what I'm saying.)

Down Smash: He quickly spins the pronged side of the trident downwards and thrusts it into the ground, causing two blasts of darkness on both sides. The explosions are single hit launchers that negate projectiles.

(Ignore the weapon swinging at the beginning, the end is the reference point.)

(Example of the energy blasts on the sides)

Standard Special (Neutral B): THE WARLOCK PUNCH! (Sm4sh's left-handed, reversible, and armored, variant). He needed a stupid strong attack with shorter range to make for the range he gained with the trident. This is mostly a punish tool as before, but slightly beefier to better reward proper reads and shield breaks.

Forward Special (Side B): The Flame Choke! Honestly, this is perhaps one of the coolest moves ever introduced to Smash, and removing it would be criminal. Keep the Sm4sh variant specifically, but let Ganny act out of it sooner by a frame or two, just in case the opponent manages to tech the floor hit. GANONCIDES FOR THE WIN!

Upward Special (Up B): Trident Warp. This move, lifted from classic Ganon, has Ganondorf hurl his whirling spear through the air, it travels a decent distance as Ganondorf vanishes towards the trident and reappears to catch it.

(Consider it a combination of Ike's Aether and a teleportation recovery. The trident goes where the player controls it, and it bats away enemies. Ganondorf is intangible and untouchable mid warp.)

Downward Special (Down B): Dead Man's Volley! I've decided to replace the Wizard's Foot instead of the Warlock Punch. Let's be honest, the Wizard's Foot brought Ganon closer to Falcon as a clone much more than is necessary.
Ganondorf summons an energy ball—the size of Mewtwo's Shadow Ball—at the head of his Trident, and lobs it forward. This is a persistent projectile, meaning it continues traveling and does not disappear until it collides with something or goes off screen. It travels rather slow at first, however, it has a special property that if other players' attacks hit it, or it is reflected, it gains speed and power and is sent back the way it came.
Ganondorf is free to hit it back too. Eventually the ball will max out at the speed and power of Max Aura Lucarios' Arua Sphere. If done in the air, Ganondorf will stop falling and hover to launch the volley at a diagonal downwards angle.

(Without the arm slam before the energy ball)

(The aerial variant)

Speaking of aerials...

Standard Aerial (Neutral Air): He covers his body with his trident and begins to spin it, covering him in the whirling motion. Multiple hits. (Palutena's Neutral Air).

(Pretty much this but bigger.)

Upward Aerial (Up Air): He spins his trident above his head as a multi-hitting move.

Forward Aerial (Forward Air): He takes a large, one-handed overhead swing with the trident. The longest range disjointed attack he has. Comparable to Corrin's Forward Smash and Side-B attack lengths in direct proportion to Ganondorf's body size. The arc covers less vertical space than Ike's, so around Cloud's Foward air arc. The head of the trident has a tipper sweetspot.
(Sorry, no image possible for this one.)

Downward Aerial (Down Air): The Stomp. Yeah, one this isn't going anywhere either.

Backward Aerial (Back Air): Ganondorf quickly turns, grabs the trident with both hands, and swings the trident at an upwards angle. (Cloud's Back air)

Now for the grabs.

When grabbing, Ganondorf extends his left arm ALL THE WAY. He remains standing upright, though, and does not lean into the grab cutting the range shorter than it could've been, but still longer than it used to be. Essentially, he looks like he's not even trying.

Forward Throw: Ganondorf summons an energy ball and detonates it in he foe's face, launching them away. Kill throw at really high percents, while at the ledge, facing the blast zone.

Down Throw: Ganondorf hovers up off the ground, and hurls the victim straight beneath him onto the ground. He proceeds to land on the character with a downward trident plunge. This soft launches the foe like Ganon's current down throw, so it's meant for follow ups; the launch is slightly further due to trident range.

Up Throw: Ganondorf effortlessly tosses the foe upwards and then thrusts the trident upwards st them and jabs them with its prongs, causing a strong launch. Effectively, a kill throw at higher percentages.

Back Throw: Ganon turns to the other side and hits the foe away with a trident golf swing.

I nominate Samus.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I was set on the mindset that Ganondorf should have a revamped moveset, while Black Shadow or some other lesser villain should take his old moveset, but I come to realize that I actually do like the Falcondorf moveset as it really captures the essence of "power" from the Triforce. Though he does need more moves from the series, and so he should have swords implemented into his moveset. I really hope that he doesn't keep his TP design and they settle for either the epic HW design with that glorious red mane, or perhaps do a Calamity Ganondorf.

 

[G-Guy]

Ganondorf has many ways he can possibly go, especially if you consider Ganon as a Character that can exist besides him.

However, if Ganondorf stays the only „Ganon“ in the game, I‘d like to see some Ganon-Esque attributes implemented.

Those include the use of a trident, or teleportation of some kind.

As for Ganondorf, some of his moves, like the flame choke, sideB, Dair and Fair all are staples and satisfying to land.

Dead man‘s volley is a no brainer and I‘d love to see the brutish ground pound seen in OoT

 

[Just a random scrub]

I’ll just be blunt and state my thoughts quickly on his controversial Smash moveset.


As I said in the Ganondorf threads, I think his moveset is fine as it is. It’s gonna be hard for me to explain my thoughts without turning this into a novel-length post, but I’ll do my best. While him as a Falcon clone does seem weird, it probably would have been the only way for him to have ever gotten in Smash in the first place, and from Brawl onwards, Sakurai has included plenty of nods to Ganondorf's canon portrayal in Zelda, that have flown over tons of people's heads, and he’s trying not to stray too far from his Smash origins as a slower, stronger take on Falcon’s moveset while trying to make him as faithful as possible to his canon portrayal within those limitations. (Plus, as ThePhantomJoker said, his moveset really captures the essence of the power of the Triforce). So yeah, he’s good to me. (If you want to talk characters who need serious changes, take a good, hard look at Wario).


In short, I’m neutral towards Ganondorf in Smash (in that, I would have preferred a more canon Dorf if time issues weren’t a factor, but seeing the circumstances to his inclusion in the series in the first place and how Sakurai’s trying to achieve a middle ground of sorts nowadays, I appreciate it a lot more). (And don’t even get me started on moving his moveset to Black Shadow, which is both unfair to Black Shadow and wouldn’t represent him well)


So yeah, I’m fine with his current moveset, but I wouldn’t mind some alterations. Most of these changes are for balance purposes, but I have altered/changed the animations of some of his less visually stunning/more useless moves to better resemble stuff from the Zelda games and distinguish him a little further from Falcon. That way, I hope to solidify Sakurai’s attempts and now finally provide a best of both worlds.

Spoiler: My personal changes to Ganondorf's moveset

General

• Ganondorf is more expressive. Instead of frowning like a reluctant dad at his daughter’s soccer practice, he now cruelly grins during multiple attacks, because he’s above you and can crush you like an ant, and he knows it. His idle pose is now him lightly floating off the ground, folding his arms and smirking. Basically, instead of looking derpy, he looks cruel, nasty, and calculating.

• His dashing animation has been changed back to his “I’m going to **** you up” dash from Melee. His Brawl/SSB4 dash looks more like somebody who woke up in the middle of the night with the bubble guts trying to make it to the bathroom before blowing out the back of his pants. I thought this guy was supposed to be, you know, intimidating? Also, he has his Melee run speed too (1.21 → 1.35). This keeps him as one of the slowest characters in the game, but at least he actually has a fair chance at keeping up.
  
  
• G-Dorf’s shield is larger, making him not quite as easy to shield stab.
  
  
• Ganondorf has a jumpsquat that’s 1 frame faster (7 → 6), as in Melee.
  
  
• The piss-poor hitboxes of many of his attacks have been fixed to be more accurate, and also some of his hurtboxes during some attacks were adjusted so that he cannot be hit from distances where he is visually out of range during some moves.
  
  
• Finally, his entrance animation has changed. Him entering via dark portal is cool and all, but I just liked this idea; he now rides onto the battlefield on his horse, like in this GIF.

• Ganondorf does not clap when he loses; instead, he faces away, folding his arms and looking very resentful.

Ground Attacks

• Neutral attack has an altered animation, now looking more like a punch and looking more forceful overall. It also uses the same SFX as his side taunt, and the sourspots are removed.
  
  
• Forward smash’s angle has been changed back to it’s Melee one (40 → 80), done to at least somewhat differentiate it from Falcon’s.
  
  
• Up tilt now has a bit of super armor.

Air Attacks

• The programming error that resulted in Ganondorf not being able to autocancel his forward aerial in Brawl and SSB4 has finally been fixed. It also deals darkness damage like in Project M.
  
  
• Back air is the same basic move, but now, he’s holding out his trident, and he hangs it out, uch like Shulk’s back air. It has much more range because of the fact he’s holding it out behind him at it’s maximum range (rivaling Shulk’s back air), and also lasts much longer; however, the entire extra duration is a very weak sourspot that only lightly launches the opponent. Also, to compensate for the better range, the move deals less damage (16% → 14%)
  
  
• Ganondorf’s down air can auto-cancel in a short hop. As trash as he was in Brawl, this was by far my favorite aspect about him.

Grab/throws

• Now, instead of awkwardly flinging his hand in front of him, he now telekinetically grabs the opponent with his hand, choking them. This is a homage to Darth Vader, but I guess it also kinda looks like the new animation of his Dark Dive in SSB4 (in that he's holding the opponent telekinetically, rather than up close)Opponents also have a unique animation for being grabbed by G-Dorf; they hover off the ground, holding their throats with their hands in a feeble attempt to break free. His new pummel is squeezing harder, further choking the life out of the opponent. Mostly, all this is aesthetic, but dash grab starts two frames faster (Frame 11 → 9).
  
  
• Ganondorf’s back throw received the same base knockback boost that Captain Falcon’s back throw received in the transition from Brawl to SSB4 (30 → 60), because with his lackluster grab game, and the fact that he’s the holder of the Triforce of Power, god damn it, he needed to have a throw that actually, you know, killed people.
  
  
• Up throw has been changed. Now, instead of being a weak, useless punch, he now hoists the opponent upwards and then uses his trident to stab them in the gut, launching them upwards. This throw is mostly the same, but it’s knockback scaling is higher (105 → 125), allowing it to KO at extremely high percentages. It can also damage opponents near him when he stabs.
  
  
• Down throw’s angle has been reverted to it’s Melee angle (65 → 100), which means it now launches the opponent slightly behind him again. This is just because I like how it functioned in Melee, plus it helps distinguish it from Falcon’s down throw.

Special moves

• Warlock Blade (Ganondorf’s first Neutral B custom, the one where he actually uses his sword) is now his default neutral special.
  
  
• Flame Choke stays put, of course, however, it starts one frame earlier (Frame 16 → 15) and travels faster and farther, and has less ending lag (FAF 62 → 60), allowing him to more consistently punish the fools who dare to tech it. Also, purely for the memes, his aerial Flame Choke covers more range,, making it a bit easier for the Ganoncide, my ultimate disrespect tool, to be utilized. (Plus, it’s good for recovery) Yes, this is main bias, lol
  
  
• Dark Dive has less damage on the initial shocks (1.2% → 1%), and it deals slightly less knockback scaling (90 → 82); however, it’s release deals much more damage (9% → 15%). This makes the grab function exactly the same as it does in Melee, thus allowing it to KO at around 150%.

• Beast Ganon..... I might change it into a Transformation, but if it stays a direct attack, then make it deal 7% more damage (40% → 47%), giving it the ability to OHKO again like in Brawl.

With these changes, Ganondorf is still a semi-clone of Falcon and he still plays much the same; however, he is now a bit closer to his home games with some altered animations, and especially altered expressions (why does the King of frickin EVIL look so much like a grumpy soccer dad), and moveset wise, I tried to boost more underwhelming tools and address some of his more crippling weaknesses to make his punishing game much more effective. I also blended in a bit of his cooler attributes from Melee and Project M with my original costemetic changes to try and finally make him live up to his status as the King of Evil.

Also, one other thing; in terms of his design... well, Link is getting his Breath of the Wild design, as we should all know by now. Zelda most certainly will too. But Ganondorf...... does not appear in Breath of the Wild, and unlike Sheik in Brawl, he doesn't have any unused art to draw from. However, I do feel like his design will be upgraded nonetheless, and Sakurai could just ask the BotW team to make a Breath of the Wild styled Ganondorf design for Smash. There's also some pretty cool fan designs for Ganondorf in the style of Breath of the Wild, too, so they could also draw from them.

(But I still want a Hyrule Warriors skin, Sakurai.)

 

[Crystanium]

I think Ganondorf needs an overhaul for most of his moveset. Just as Link has the Master Sword, Ganondorf should have the Sword of Demise. I don't think he needs to be restricted to a moveset that uses a sword only, however. I didn't feel like making .gifs, so I linked videos showcasing Ganondorf's moveset. I didn't address some attacks because I didn't know what I'd replace those attacks with.

Side taunt
Because why not?

Neutral A
Ganondorf can cover more range with a disjointed hitbox.

Dash attack
Ganondorf could charge with his blade pointing up before going for a swing downward.

Up tilt
I'm not sure what I would replace that attack with. Maybe something that looks similar to Cloud's up air could work.

Side tilt
This attack is already based off the fight in TP. I can't find a video where this occurs.

Down tilt
The animation could be changed so that he doesn't look wierd. Maybe crouching with his hands on the ground and one leg kicking out with his heel sliding along the ground.

Up smash
I'm fine with this attack.

Side smash
Ganondorf will perform a short hop. The attack has two parts to it, kind of like Link's forward smash, and the initial strike has low knock-back and decent stun to deliver the final blow. This animation is different from the one Captain Falcon has. If Nintendo wanted to, Captain Falcon could be given his roundhouse kick that he had in SSB64. It doesn't matter either way.

Neutral B
Magic spheres, obviously. Ganondorf couldn't retain a charge, but he could make this attack more powerful or even attack from a distance.

Up special
I know Ganondorf can hover, but I'm not sure what I'd replace this with. Maybe Dark Fists or Dark Vault.

Side special
Dead man's volley? Imagine Ganondorf being capable of returning a projectile back at the opponent. It'd have its limits, of course. After all, even Ganondorf gets hit. And to further support this, Phantom Ganon did this in both OoT and WW. And yes, this would be usable while airborne.

Down special
I think this attack can remain as is, but change the animation and cause Ganondorf to drop down. I don't know how this would work if Ganondorf was already on the ground. Perhaps a short hop to striking the ground?

Addendum
I nominate for the next revamp.

 

[Koopaul]

I think if they kept all the moves basically the same but he uses his sword for some them instead it could pmease both fans. Remember how one of his alternate Special attack was his sword? Do that.

For example: His spiking aerial stomp is now him thrusting his sword downwards. It works almost the same as before.

Or that long charge up drop kick he has for his Up tilt? Make that him holding his sword up and then slaming it down the same way he would have with his foot.

Maybe his Up air flip kick is now him swiping the sword over his head. It serve the same function as a large arc about him with great K.O. potential and about the same hitbox as when he was just kicking.

Those are just some ideas to keep him playing relatively the same (for fans of his original playstyle) but stylistically changing it so it seems more in tune with Ganondorf's swordlyness.

As for his wizardry moves? You'd have to rework his entire moveset for that. He'd be an entirely new character which I know a lot of fans want, but I was trying to find a happy middle ground.

 

[Deleted member]

Appearance:
My guess is that Ganondorf's appearance will be original and inspired by BotW, though it may only make us hate even more that Ganondorf didn't appear in that game.... :/ Thus Ganondorf, Link and Zelda will continue to all match thematically. However...it would be great if all three had alt costumes for Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time, as well as Skyward Sword with Demise as an alt?

Moveset:
Sakurai has so far not shown to be willing to completely rework a character, only to update things here and there. But I do think some of Ganondorf's custom moves were on the right track, and I've always felt that as long as Ganondorf is stealing moves as a semi-clone, he may as well borrow from other characters if it makes sense, like Ike (and we like Ike):

Standard Attacks

• Up tilt: a quick uppercut reminiscent of Gerudo Dragon, either electric or dark magic
  
• Down tilt: something like Samus' down tilt except a blast of dark/electric magic could be cool
• Dash attack: basically the custom side special Flame Chain
• Up smash: a sweeping sword move (like Ike)
  
• Down smash: a mix between Ike's Eruption and Volcano Kick, but he plunges his sword down in front of him.
  
• Forward smash: a deadly stab forward with his sword, like Warlock Blade or Shield Breaker. Can be angled.
• Neutral Air: similar to Mewtwo's neutral air but more like a quick burst, animation similar to end of his up taunt
  
• Down Air: a downward punch using similar animation as Little Mac, but functions the same as his stomp
• Up Air: a sword move? or something other than a kick

Grab/Throws

• Pummel: a shocking move like Mewtwo
• In general make his grab/throws less physical and more dark magicky

Special Attacks

• Neutral Special: a chargeable projectile that strikes the ground a certain distance in front and cannot be stored; the longer it's held the longer the cooldown
• Down Special: same move, just use sword like Mii Swordfighter's Power Thrust

Final Smash

• Final Smash: still Ganon, but now a transformation move like Giga Bowser, etc.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

This is the REVAMP a Character thread, not the talk about how unlikely changes are or feel sorry for fans of old movesets thread.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Counted down the votes. Thanks all fornyour contributions so far. As said before, Wednesday is gonna be the day we're updating the thread with a new character.

Also for future references and making it MUCH easier for me to count the votes... PLEASE use the character emoticons of the character you nominate / vote for. And please do this nomination at the end of your post.

Current rankings:

: 6 Votes
: 4 Votes
: 3 Votes
: 2 Votes
: 1 Vote

And since I've also been contributing... I'm gonna add in 1 Vote each for Diddy Kong and Ike .

Also, am not as active currently because the main PC I've always used has broken down. Do everything on my mobile and disfunctional laptop now. Then again, I have been playing Smash 3DS a lot since I got it about last week. First time I actually OWN the game. Played at a friend's house on his Wii U a lot before. Glad I eventually did it however.

My contributions to Ganondorf's moveset will be done tomorrow most likely or Sunday. Untill then I rely on you all to keep the thread alive.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Damn, I forgot one crucial thing I was going to discuss for Ganondorf in regards to his portrayal in the next game. It was going to be something that could help further calm down the arguments about Ganon's Smash portrayal:

Custom Moves, *****. And I mean UNIQUE customs, not just horribly unbalanced variations of a character's default specials. If it were only the Miis with Unique customs, then that might have made a little more sense (because their whole thing is being a player avatar). But seeing Palutena, an otherwise completely normal fighter, with unique, stand-out customs while everyone else gets said unbalanced customs that were probably all finished at the very last second baffled me. Ganondorf in particular has so much potential for unique custom moves that it's ridiculous. And in fact, I've come up with quite a few. Here's Ganondorf's current custom moves in my ideal moveset:

Neutral Special Customs

• Neutral Special Custom 1-Warlock Punch: Remember, I made the Warlock Blade his default Neutral Special, but no way in hell was I removing the Warlock Punch. So, it's now his first neutral special custom. As for the second; well, let's just say, I think a lot of people will approve this one...
• Neutral Special Custom 2-Dead Man's Volley: His signature move in all it's glory. However, it has seen a fair bit of tweaking. If it functioned exactly like it did in OoT, then, well, it wouldn't be fun. It would basically turn Smash into a 2.5D Pong game, and it would be potentially game-breaking in 8 Player Smash (like Melee's Blackhole glitch). Plus, how would it traverse stages? Wold it be fair if he used it right next to the opponent? If there were multiple opponents, who would it home in on? So, for that reason, I removed the homing function. Ganondorf suffers quite a bit of start-up lag, and then he throws the ball in a slightly downwards path. It moves at a slow-ish speed, but is strong, large, and can KO at high percents. It does not deal a lot of shield damage, oddly, which makes shielding it rather effective. It is also a bit like Dedede's Gordo Attack, with strong enough attacks, you can knock it back at Ganondorf. So, you cannot spam it, really. So the use of Dead Man's Volley isn't really to kill; it's a threat. Now, with the ball looming towards you, you have to react in some way, like shield it, jump away, etc, and Ganondorf can punish the action accordingly if he predicts it right. (Also, it replaces the Warlock Thrust, because that **** sucked)

Side Special Customs

• Side Special Custom 1-Rift: Ganondorf punches the ground, and a shockwave occurs, a giant purple one that covers a lot of distance and deals good damage and knockback.
  
• Side Special Custom 2-Gerudo Dragon: Many Melee players should recognize this as Ganondorf's old side special; a clone of the Raptor Boost. Mostly the same, but it's stronger now so that it stays stronger than the Raptor Boost, via buffs to damage (Ground: 17% → 19%), base knockback (Ground: 60 → 82), and knockback growth (Ground: 69 → 89). It also has many of the changes Falcon's Raptor Boost got (no longer dashes over ledges, leapfrog effect in midair, can grab ledges). Aerially, it's unchanged. (By the way, it replaces the very similar Flame Wave)

Up Special Customs

• Up Special Custom 1-Dark Fists: Nothing really changed here, this move is busted LMAO. Well, make it cover a bit less distance, so there's a real reason to use Dark Dive over it.
  
• Up Special Custom 2-Darkness Teleport (Or somethin like that): Ganondorf teleports using a portal of darkness. Has great distance potential, but you can see where he's going to exit. Basically, think a mixture between his up special in SSB Crusade and Black Mage's up special in Super Smash Flash 2.

Down Special Customs

• Down Special Custom 1-Wizard's Dropkick: Nothing really changed here, again. Maybe give him the ability to B-Reverse it?
  
• Up Special Custom 2-Earthquake Punch: Ganondorf slowly rises up in midair, and then with a grunt, slowly falls back down, punching the ground upon impact to create a shockwave like in the final boss of Ocarina of Time. It briefly stuns opponents before launching them, but the ending lag is punishable.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Today I was kinda stunned to find out that Ganondorf and Captain Falcon don't share a similar animation for their Beam Sword / other batter weapon Forward Smash. In fact, the battering item Forward Smash for Ganondorf seems extremely similar to how he fought in Twilight Princess with his Sage Sword. I just don't see the reason why they would restrict Ganondorf having only one sword based move, and it's a Custom after all -that kinda looks awkward anyway- when he has a fully unique weapon Forward Smash.

At the very least, I want Ganondorf to retain these exact moves:

Forward Air: very iconic, been a unique move since Melee even.
Side Special: has also become very iconic and is extremely fitting for Ganondorf
Up Special: it's not great for recovery but still, the animation really fits. Make it a better recovery and increase the damage and range on it so it can actually be useful
Forward Tilt: even if it wasn't directly taken from Twilight Princess, the move functions well with his playstyle
D Air: kinda indecisive here because he could very well use the earthquake punch from Ocarina of Time here, but it fits
U Air: because it works well
B Air: it's rather fast, I don't think anything else which would be faster or more useful than it
Jab: I don't see the problem with that move at all, maybe make it a 2 hit combo, first the jab from Melee, followed up with the Brawl / Smash 4 jab. If not, change this to a sort of small projectile attack or use the weapon version of this attack.
D Tilt? Yeah well... it's a Down Tilt, not many characters have something special going on for this move anyway

So what it comes down to, is that I want Ganondorf to change mostly in his Down and Neutral Special attacks, and his Smash attacks. Down and Up Smash need to be downrightly replaced with something else, as these moves are just awkward and since Smash attacks are the more powerful attacks in the franchise, Ganondorf can have his uniqueness increased in these moves. Forward Smash can simply be the EXACT SAME MOVE as Ganondorf does whilst holding a battering weapon like a Beam Sword.

Shame I can't find a gif of this attack, but here's at least a picture.

Otherwise, I would want Ganondorf to have similar attacks as he did in Hyrule Warriors, where he summons the Dark Claws from the abyss to attack enemies. It would be kinda similar to Bayonetta her Smash Attacks, but slower and probably even stronger.

What I mean is exaclty the move he does in this video starting from 0.46 - 0.51 ;

Or a energy projectile attack similar to the Ocarina of Time battle where he charges up that greater "Spirit Bomb" kind of attack. As shown here in this video around 0.23 - 0.26 ;

It would also work as a Up Smash I would imagine.

Down Smash I would put in the Earthquake Punch honestly.

Down Special could be a sort of teleporting move, not very different to say, Greninja's Shadow Sneak or Meta Knight's Galaxy Warp, but far stronger and having serious super armour on the move.

Neutral Special I would keep the Warlock Punch, but make it slightly different where if you hold down the B button during the attack, it becomes far stronger and also gains a LOT of super armour as well as increased range and hitbox size.

Neutral Air could be anyhting, just NOT what they have given him before. I don't care if it becomes a boring sex kick for example, just THIS particular move doesn't look good at all. Give him something similar to Mewtwo, or Ike, or Marth, or Cloud, I really don't care at this point.

With this said, I nominate Mewtwo.

 

[QrowinSP]

Figure I'd throw my 2 cents in.

A moves: Ganondorf would use the great sword Demise uses in SS. His attacks would have a long wind up, but they large, dramatic, and fast moving once they come out. Some things will stay the same from falcondorf, though. His dair and side tilt will remain the same, and his up tilt will work similarly, but look different. Also, his down smash is his ground pound from OOT.

Ganondorf can float like peach.

B: Dead Man's Volley: Has about 1.5 seconds of chargeup, after which Ganon flings the ball in target direction. It is big and has good damage. If an enemy hits it, it flies back, but Ganon can walk into it again to fire it back straight at them, even faster than before and with more damage/kill power. If you mash the B button, he'll do a different attack, with several smaller balls with slight homing that cannot be attacked. If all of them hit the enemy, the enemy is stunned for a couple seconds.

Up B: Sword teleport: Similar to his move from ALttP, Ganondorf throws his sword in target direction and then warps to it. This does not induce freefall, and if you hold up or a jump button during the animation he will appear in the new location floating. This resets his float timer.

Side B: Sword play: Ganondorf holds his sword up to block. He blocks damage from attacks from the direction the special is used in and he can continue to walk and jump, but not run or attack. This lasts as long as you hold the button or are launched. Releasing the button causes him to attack in front of him. The attack is stronger if he blocked a lot of attacks.

Down B: Skyward Demise: Similar to Pikachu's thunder, but he holds up his sword and catches the lightning. Slower than Pikachu's down b, and it can't kill, but it has the added benefit of giving him a lightning sword that does slightly more damage for about 10 seconds. Using this again will expend the lightning on his sword to shoot out a powerful but slow projectile.

Final Smash: Still beast ganon, but with the BotW look.

I tried to make him feel like the enemy you fight in the games, and so that fighting him feels like fighting ganondorf. His side special is the whole "Blocking your attacks" thing from WW/TP/SS, his floating and neutral special lets him play a dead man's volley game with interesting choices, without the risk of self harm that there are for him in the games. The down b just makes you feel like a badass, plus it has the same gameplay from SS where you try and keep him from getting his lightning power up, and then when he gets it try to get him to expend it.