The PSI Powered Youth: Game Play General

[Meccs]

Usmash is really fast... I like dash-cancelled (i think that's what I'm doing?) Usmash a lot. Especially if your opponent is on the ground after a hit- it will hit them where grabs and most everything else would miss.

i was a strong proponent of Dsmash early on but it just kinda sucks. god forbid you hit with the weak hit, you'll get really punished. I think it can do a decent job when edgeguarding though, even though PK Fire and Usmash are better options basically all the time.

 

[The 0ne]

which stupid Ness tried to PK Flash you when you could just go up to them?

Oh, I just tested it with a friend online lol

 

[The 0ne]

which stupid Ness tried to PK Flash you when you could just go up to them?

Oh, I just tested it online with a friend lol

 

[PKBeam]

Oh, I just tested it online with a friend lol

oh....

i went online last night and tried usmash, that frame 6 hitbox does not lie.

 

[Earthbound360]

oh....

i went online last night and tried usmash, that frame 6 hitbox does not lie.

I'm so glad you tested that. Ever since I discovered it's 6 frames I've been abusing it out of dash and shield (well not abusing it, more like using it wiseley).

Guys, it's so fast to come out, and it hits like Ness' entire body, even better than utilt covers in the beginning (AND it's faster!!).

 

[PKBeam]

6 frames behind him, 9 frames in front if they're right next to you and 11-12 if they're further away. the ending lag if you miss in front is a little scary for me tho.
i think Nair OoS is like 11 frames. i might need to start using it more.

 

[Earthbound360]

Once again on the subject of usmash (I'm beating this dead horse to a pulp now), but how long has reverse usmash out of dash been a thing? I coulda sworn it wasn't in Brawl, but I feel like you could do a **** ton of mindgames with this.

 

[Luco]

Once again on the subject of usmash (I'm beating this dead horse to a pulp now), but how long has reverse usmash out of dash been a thing? I coulda sworn it wasn't in Brawl, but I feel like you could do a **** ton of mindgames with this.

You've always been able to reverse Usmash in Brawl, you just slam the control stick in the other direction immediately before you Usmash. ^_^

Same is true here I believe. =D

 

[Earthbound360]

You've always been able to reverse Usmash in Brawl, you just slam the control stick in the other direction immediately before you Usmash. ^_^

Same is true here I believe. =D

For some reason I don't remember being able to do that. I need to play with this more.

Btw, out of curiosity and if anyone knows, how strong does Ness' uair rank among all uairs in the game? In Brawl it was like... 3rd strongest, with I think Ivysaur being the top. Now that he's gone, AND uair got buffed... where do we stand now? O_o

 

[Luco]

Hmm, the only major contenders for that position I can think of would probably be.... maybe Falco/Fox and possibly Marth tipper?

Uhhh, i'll get back to you on that one.

 

[Tikao]

UAIR IS LOVE, UAIR IS LIFE, EMBRACE UAIR, ACCEPT IT INTO YOUR HEARTS AND THEN MAKE SWEET LOVE TO IT ... sry, i felt like i had to do that, uair is good

 

[Earthbound360]

Hmm, the only major contenders for that position I can think of would probably be.... maybe Falco/Fox and possibly Marth tipper?

Uhhh, i'll get back to you on that one.

What about Zelda and Boozer?

 

[Luco]

What about Zelda and Boozer?

Bowser I think might fall slightly short. Zelda, on the other hand...

 

[ilysm]

Zelda's uair did get nerfed. It's weaker than it was in previous games. How much, I couldn't say...one thing is for sure, though. Ness's uair is ridiculous. Does the hitbox actually cover a bit behind him as well?

 

[Earthbound360]

Zelda's uair did get nerfed. It's weaker than it was in previous games. How much, I couldn't say...one thing is for sure, though. Ness's uair is ridiculous. Does the hitbox actually cover a bit behind him as well?

Yes :3

 

[Noa.]

I hit a crouching sheik with uair today while I was on top of her. It seems that uair has the tiniest of hitboxes directly below him as well.

Uair's hitbox never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Earthbound360]

One funny thing I do with uair sometimes is "edgeguard" with it. I jump off the edge at my opponent, who's normally expecting something like an nair or fair edgeguard, then fast fall uair, killing them off of the top.

I must say, the changes to fast falling (as in making us fall REAL fast) has proven to be another environmental buff that I beleive has helped Ness.

On the subject of usmash (again, I know), I've been using it as a punish on block for things like dash attacks and dash-like attacks (like some sideB moves) that hit your shield, but can be ambiguous to which side the opponent ends up on. Nair out of shield isn't fast enough all the time, but usmash coming out in 6-9 frames is. I tried this a bunch against Yoshi's annoying dash attack last night, and it worked wonders.

 

[Noa.]

I kill offstage with uair as well. It's a very effective way to land uair. Their options are limited when they're trying to recover. If they recover low it's dangerous for them to air dodge so it's easy to land uair.

And yesterday I was using dsmash and u smash in friendlies. They're fun movies to use and definitely have a niche. They outrange all of the rest of our normal attacks, so if the oppoenent is trying to wait just outside of our usual range, trying to bait and punish, then I smash and dsmash are good tools cause they extend out of our usual bubble of range.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Did someone say up air? -

 

[Noa.]

So the effectiveness as PK fire as a tool is related quite heavily to the run speed of the opponent we're playing against. Or at least this is the impression I get. Pivot pk fire is a generally safe move, , but the best way for most people to punish it is to run up and shield it. Characters that are particularly fast are very good at punishing pk fire. PK fire gets punished very easily by Sonic, Falcon, Fox, Greninja, Sheik, Mac, and ZSS. Obviously we can still use pk fire against them, but it requires more thought and care than usual. I feel that other characters' run speeds are not extreme enough to diminish pk fire's effectiveness too much however.

Ness is 35th fastest dash in the game, along with Falco and Olimar. He's quite slow actually it's a bit shocking. However I think that all of the characters that are slower than him are so much worse at handling pk fire.

This thread has everyone's running speed: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/

I would say anyone slower than Ness has a lot of trouble dealing with pk fire. Exceptions being Peach, Link, Megaman, Jiggs, and maybe Zelda. Peach and Jiggs approach aerially, Link and Megaman force us to approach because of projectiles, and I haven't played much against Zelda but perhaps Nayru's love is an effective tool against pk fire.

All of those other characters though are severely hampered by pk fire I feel. Ganon and DDD in particular have an awful time with it. It's very difficult for them to deal with pivot pk fire and dash grab mixups.

Meh all I'm saying is that the safety and risk of pk fire is affected heavily by the dash speed of the opponent we're facing. Extremely fast and extremely slow characters are very notable, and should be taken advantage of.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness is the 35th fastest in the game, not the slowest. You made me think he was actually moderately quick there for a second.

Other than that, I agree with everything you posted. This is why I believe that Ness struggles with the fastest characters (I think he always has) because they make PK Fire AND his grab game less effective.

 

[The 0ne]

If Ness don't got PK Fire and grabs wat he got? Some toys and twinkly lights

 

[Noa.]

Oops grammatical mistake on my part. Yeah Ness's ground mobility is a point of weakness for him. He's not that slow so not many characters can abuse it, but it's really noticeable against the top 8 or so in terms of dash speed. Obviously this doesn't mean they're bad matchups, but it makes them more difficult for Ness since he can't rely on pk fire as much.

I'm curious though, in what ways do you think his grab game is less effective against faster characters?

 

[Earthbound360]

It's just generally harder to catch them in Ness' stubby little arms. Ever tried grabbing a good Sonic player? Because I'm still trying to >.<

I usually just resort to playing defensively as hell on faster characters (cept Sheik, **** those needles). I do a bunch of retreating fairs and nair feints instead of trying to press combo starters like PKF and dthrow.

 

[Noa.]

Ah ok yes I see. I was thinking in more of a defensive posture. But it's harder to use dash grabs offensively when the opponent has a very fast dash speed I agree.

 

[Pazx]

Depending on opponent's DI, down throw can stage spike opponents when used with your back right up against the ledge. This is very situational but if you're aware of it and it happens you should be ready to capitalise on the edgeguard situation.

This works on several characters, I haven't tested them all, but Zamus and Bowser are definite yesses whilst Rosalina and Fox never have it occur at all.

I've only tested it on Halberd and it only seems to occur on the right ledge of the large platform.

Not shown in the video, but if Bowser DIs left he will bounce on the stage which lets you follow up instantly.

 

[Luco]

Depending on opponent's DI, down throw can stage spike opponents when used with your back right up against the ledge. This is very situational but if you're aware of it and it happens you should be ready to capitalise on the edgeguard situation.

This works on several characters, I haven't tested them all, but Zamus and Bowser are definite yesses whilst Rosalina and Fox never have it occur at all.

I've only tested it on Halberd and it only seems to occur on the right ledge of the large platform.

Not shown in the video, but if Bowser DIs left he will bounce on the stage which lets you follow up instantly.

Ah yes! This was a rare glitch in Brawl that had the same effect; if you're up to continue testing that would be incredible. :D

 

[Pazx]

I can do some more testing later on, do you remember if this worked on other stages in Brawl?

Also, quick question: Pilotwings is legal at a tourney I'm attending on the weekend. Any advice other than camp with PKT/Uair?

 

[Noa.]

Ban it because if people use the engines to stall then you'll have no way to attack them.

 

[Pazx]

I don't plan on banning it because while it's an awful stage in general I think it's a great stage for Ness.

Edit: also stage related, what do you guys feel are Ness's better stages? Does he benefit from platforms more than other characters? Best stages on the following list?

Spoiler

Stagelist:

Starter

-Battlefield
-Duck Hunt
-Lylat Cruise
-Smashville
-Final Destination/Omega Palutena's Temple (specifically)

Counterpick

-Castle Siege
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Kongo Jungle 64
-Pilot Wings
-Skyloft
-Town and City

 

[Luco]

Uhhhh, I can't remember sorry! I had an interest in it for a while but it rarely happened... Oh I know why! In brawl it wasn't something WE could do, it was a glitch zelda could abuse against characters like sonic.... that's why I don't know much of its specifics. You may like to test it out! ^_^

 

[Heropon_Riki]

I don't plan on banning it because while it's an awful stage in general I think it's a great stage for Ness.

Edit: also stage related, what do you guys feel are Ness's better stages? Does he benefit from platforms more than other characters? Best stages on the following list?

Spoiler

Stagelist:

Starter

-Battlefield
-Duck Hunt
-Lylat Cruise
-Smashville
-Final Destination/Omega Palutena's Temple (specifically)

Counterpick

-Castle Siege
-Delfino Plaza
-Halberd
-Kongo Jungle 64
-Pilot Wings
-Skyloft
-Town and City

Just wondring, this isn't specific to Ness but is Town and City tending to be a counter? This is the first time I've seem it as a counter and not a starter. And how is that stage for Ness?

 

[Noa.]

Town and City is typically a neutral.

And I'm not sure on what our best stages are yet. I know my favorite stage to counterpick right now is Halberd because of the low ceiling. Town and City also has a very low ceiling so that's also a pretty good stage.

 

[Earthbound360]

Just for the sake of Omega stages, try to pick one that has completely vertical walls as opposed to ones shaped like a trapezoid (Delfino, FD) and ESPECIALLY avoid ones that are just thin platforms (like Orbital Assault).

Ness' recovery can actually be extended by wall bounces, so vertical walls are a big plus. But he's screwed over by stages with lips because they're difficult to ride up, and if you get shoved under the stage by something you're ****ed.

I have this epic recovery replay that I saved that I think you guys should see.

 

[Noa.]

Record it with your phone and post it! :V

 

[Earthbound360]

Why would I do that when I have a fancy capture card?

 

[ilysm]

Find it kinda funny that this essentially makes Omega Onett (a variation on) his most powerful stage. By the way, do different Omegas have different blast zones or sizes or something? I'm often wondering why Omega Palutena's in particular is the accepted representative of the Omega stages in official stagelists, when it seems that walls aside, they're all the same.

(also ha ha his best stages are ones with walls as in the ones that touch the ground and allow him to connect with the power of the earth he harnessed in the game ho ho aren't i clever)

 

[Pazx]

Find it kinda funny that this essentially makes Omega Onett (a variation on) his most powerful stage. By the way, do different Omegas have different blast zones or sizes or something? I'm often wondering why Omega Palutena's in particular is the accepted representative of the Omega stages in official stagelists, when it seems that walls aside, they're all the same.

(also ha ha his best stages are ones with walls as in the ones that touch the ground and allow him to connect with the power of the earth he harnessed in the game ho ho aren't i clever)

Omega Palutena's is almost a direct clone of FD minus the awful awful background.

Anyway striking stages before game 1 really does affect the outcome of a set, I'm thinking I strike Lylat and Duck Hunt? I personally would prefer TaC to be on the list but since it's not I'll make do.

I too like Halberd but it seems almost every character kills off the top in this game, does Ness benefit from the low ceiling more than other characters? Do we have a Dream Land-esque stage with wide and high blastzones in this game?

 

[Noa.]

Only gameplay differences are different ledges and traction on grass omegas.

 

[Pazx]

I was talking about regular stages, as I don't think Ness benefits from Omega stages that much anyway. Wouldn't ban them though, unless I was playing a Diddy or Sonic.