The PSI Powered Youth: Game Play General

[The 0ne]

PKF lag cancelling works in this game exactly the way it works in Brawl. The only difference now is that you odon't want to lag cancel it with an air dodge since air dodges have landing lag now. Use dair instead.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with PKF lag cancelling from Brawl, it's a matter of jumping, using PKF, and using dair before hitting the ground. This changes Ness' land animation to a much less laggy one.

I can't seem to do it right. I jump, PK Fire, then input a dair, and it's not working. Does it only work with a C-Stick? Because I haven't tested the Wii U version yet.

 

[Earthbound360]

I can't seem to do it right. I jump, PK Fire, then input a dair, and it's not working. Does it only work with a C-Stick? Because I haven't tested the Wii U version yet.

It only works during the later frames of PKF. Do a full jump, and PKF as you leave the ground, then dair as you land. You can't lag cancel PKF from a short hop height.

 

[The 0ne]

But if the move is already over, why would I need to lag cancel it?

 

[Earthbound360]

It's similar to air dodge cancelling in a sense. Yeah the move is technically "over," but if you land during the last few frames of the move, you'll suffer some bad landing lag. By executing a dair just before landing, you rid yourself of that landing lag.

 

[The 0ne]

So the move...isn't over?

 

[ilysm]

Well, the way I understand it, the execution of a move and the landing lag are not the same thing. The move is over. Because it is over, you will suffer landing lag once you hit the ground. But in the period of time between the move finishing and you hitting the ground, you have a window to perform a Dair. If you hit the ground before the actual hitbox on the Dair comes out, you will suffer the landing lag for an incomplete Dair (which is minimal) rather than a complete Dair or complete PK Fire (which are a lot and even more, respectively).

Does that make sense?

 

[Earthbound360]

So the move...isn't over?

It's kind of hard to describe without just seeing for yourself. The move is "over" in the sense that you can attack, air dodge, or use other specials and such. However, if you touch the ground during this period, Ness will STILL suffer landing lag from the PKF.
Does that make any sense?

 

[Tikao]

The move is technically not over, but at a certain point you can interrupt this move
It is actually over at the exakt same time the animation is over or you interrupt the move (which ends the animation of it by starting another one)

since pk-fire's animation is too long and you will suffer the landing lag of it at ANY point of it's animation, you need to interrupt it with another move, that gives you less landing lag (nobody likes landing lag)

you can use a dair for it, since, unlike pk-fire, you won't suffer it's landing lag at any point of the animation, there is a short window in the first few frames where, if you land there, you will only suffer your normal landing lag (like when you just landed without a move)

that's perfect, because you can interrupt pk-fire only that late in that position, so when you interrupt it with dair, it is impossible to get to the point where dair would give you it's landing lag, so you automatically end up with your normal landing lag instead of your laggy dair/pk-fire landing lag

 

[The 0ne]

After taking everyone's advice, I still don't really get how the move is over but not over, but nonetheless I figured out how to correctly do the lag cancel. Is it IASA frames on PK Fire? And I think the word you're thinking of is "autocancel" frames for dair.

 

[Luco]

Yeah I believe it's IASA frames, like air-dodging cancels. It's not that the move is over but not over, moreso that the move isn't over if you do nothing to cancel it.

 

[Pazzo.]

So Ness' PK Thunder 2 got more lag... how serious is it?

 

[Luco]

Oh, PKT2? It's nothing really, it's not a move where the ending lag on it would have ever made a difference, you use it to recover and those crazy mixups everybody goes "WOAHHHHHHH" on.

The lag on PKT1 though is horrendous now because we can't use an aerial directly after it now (reliably), so that combo doesn't work anymore

 

[neomadgic]

The lag on PKT1 though is horrendous now because we can't use an aerial directly after it now (reliably), so that combo doesn't work anymore

Man.. that was my favorite combo! When you use pkt1 to edgeguard, and they (natrually) DI towards the stage. So after they get hit by pkt1, it's a usually a free Uair.

 

[Noa.]

You can at least still juggle effectively with it. It's just not as potent as before. And pkt to aerial becomes a frame trap. You can read the airdrodge and uair afterward. But it's not as easy as before obviously. .

 

[PKBeam]

any good guaranteed comboes with Ness?
I did a double Uair combo on a little mac at like 50... not sure when I'm going to be able to get that again tho...

 

[PSIBoy]

any good guaranteed comboes with Ness?
I did a double Uair combo on a little mac at like 50... not sure when I'm going to be able to get that again tho...

Besides d-throw to f-air to f-air/n-air/u-air or just d-throw to n-air/u-air at low percents, nothing I can think of.

 

[PKBeam]

so PSI magnet doesn't cancel your momentum in a FH or a DJ that's close the the ground.
it actually looks really odd when you see that happening.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Won a local weekly tournament with Ness, starting to pick up his character more and more. Love how he feels this game. Some general advice that others can feel free to comment on:

Short hop double n-air is a very great approach. Double jump after the first n-air and space yourself if you are shielded and expect a grab punish. F-air is also a safe approach, as the multiple hits are good for poking out shields.

D-throw -> F-air -> F-air -> N-air -> U-air is a solid combo. Sometimes I follow this up with a standard PK Flash and bait out the mistimed airdodge. That can kill on the lighter characters.

PK Fire is a great edgeguarding tool. Get comfortable with the diagonal angle when used in the air.

The only customs you should be changing out are PK Thunder for Lucas's (cannot be gimped) or PK Magnet against non-energy users for favor of the vacuum. The other customs are meh.

Good character. Good approach and lots of kill tools. B-throw, u-air , f-smash especially.

 

[Earthbound360]

I just wanna discuss some of Ness' smashes real quick.

Fsmash, good lord. This thing is awful now. It's slow, it lost range, the sweetspot is picky as hell. I doubt the bat will ever return to its former glory in Melee, where it was one of the best fsmashes ever. Fun fact though, you can reflect things with the back side of Ness.

Dsmash is BEAUTIFUL. It's quite possibly my favorite buff, as great as uair and PKT might be. It kills SO well now, and in a game in which rolls are incredibly good, its meaty hitbox is just wonderful. It sends opponents at such a horizontal angle. I keep getting so many kills with this move, it's hilarious. The only thing I don't like about it is that it has 3 hits, 2 weaks and the strong one. The first 2 weak hits sometimes push people out of the strong hit and do minimal damage. Also, it's got a nasty blind spot under his feet for some reason. This bugs me.

Usmash, I think I underuse it but it's got some very unique properties that I want to discuss, mostly its hit pattern. I don't know if you guys have noticed, but the hitbox begins behind Ness, right where he takes the yo-yo out. That hitbox comes out fairly quickly too. So that means that this usmash hits behind Ness, then in front of him, then behind him again. What kind of usmash does that?? I feel like this has some OoS and roll punish potential as a result, but I have to experiment more. In addition to this, it's got a nice disjoint, decent for anti-airs. The loss of the charge mechanic sort of hurt this move (helped dsmash though), and it's still not strong enough to KO at realistic percentages.

Any thoughts?

 

[Tikao]

fsmash can be used for hard reads to punish airdodges into the ground or after hitting pk-fire up close, because it kills so early, but otherwise it is just too slow to be usefull

agree on the dsmash changes, they're awesome, you can even use it for edgeguarding and if they snatch the ledge for the 2. time before touching the ground and don't get the invisible frames, you can punish them immediatly

usmash doesn't seem too great for me, lost it's charging hitbox and still doesn't kill, the hitbox behind ness seemed very small for me, but i would've to test that, maybe it is usefull
losing the charging hitbox also means no random stagespikes against opponents at the ledge, when you charge the move at the ledge, and that was like the best way to kill someone as ness xD

with the added airdodge landing lag, i feel like nair/uair or simply shielding and grabbing (less shield knockback) beats usmash as an anti air for closer ranged targets, while usmash simply doesn't got the range to deal with something, that beats those options by outranging them
those options just got better in compairison while usmash lost it's lasting charging hitbox
I'm not too sure about usmash though, maybe it is usefull in some way or as a mixup

 

[Boy Jordan]

F-Smash is the best punishing tool Ness has for whiffed edgegrabs. Such early kill power, and the bat doesn't have a hurtbox, which gives it priority over damaging recoveries. D-Smash is good for roll reads. U-Smash is...regrettably rather useless. :'(

 

[Noa.]

i think fsmash is incredibly good for hard reads. It is very difficult to land but I find that if they are about 70 I tend to get a kill with it. It kills so much earlier than uair and bthrow so it has that niche. I only use it about once every two stocks but it's still useful.

I recognize that dsmash is useful and it feels good to use but I still rarely use it. I need to experiment with it more. I do agree that it's pretty potent and a nice alternative kill move that most people would not expect.

I only use usmash when I want punish landing airdodges. It does more damage than dash attack, and if I don't want to stale uair I use usmash instead. This is my least favorite smash though. It doesn't really do anything that other moves already do.

 

[Earthbound360]

I still think fsmash is trash for anything other than lolreflecting. It's one of those moves that'll only be good while the game is young. Once people start catching onto air dodge cancels, learn how to recovery properly and not abuse the ledge, and figure out how to get out of PK Fire quickly, it'll become more and more useless. Seriously, it's just too slow and short ranged. Sonic's fsmash outranges it for crying out loud -_-

Dsmash is my favorite smash now, no contest.

I never said usmash was great, it's got its flaws clearly, but I think there's some untapped potential here. I find it to be the opposite of fsmash, as in it'll probably prove more useful over time. One theoretical use I've got is OoS punishes. SHs in this game send Ness a little too high to land his fair, and dair is just a joke now. With the extended range of the usmash, I feel like it would be the best option for quickly punishing things on block. I say we don't give up on this move just yet.

 

[Boy Jordan]

I never said usmash was great, it's got its flaws clearly, but I think there's some untapped potential here. I find it to be the opposite of fsmash, as in it'll probably prove more useful over time. One theoretical use I've got is OoS punishes. SHs in this game send Ness a little too high to land his fair, and dair is just a joke now. With the extended range of the usmash, I feel like it would be the best option for quickly punishing things on block. I say we don't give up on this move just yet.

Your posts are kind of funny to read, cause you dismiss perfectly viable moves like F-Smash and D-Air while insisting we hold out hope for what is arguably one of the worst smash attacks in the entire game: U-Smash. Truthfully, for any character, there is no move that does not have its use in some regard, whether that be a niche applicability or otherwise. Not all moves will fit all purposes (why would you be using D-Air as an approach in the first place?), but when used smartly, you realize how important they are to have in your arsenal. Getting early kills around 70% with F-Smash is nothing to laugh at.

As for U-Smash, I don't see much out-of-shield utility there. Seems like it'll only be worth the try if you're being pressured from behind, since the hitbox begins behind you. Otherwise, its startup is too slow to punish with. A simple grab to D-Throw will end up dealing more damage, considering the follow up, or if you're looking to get the opponent off the stage: B-Throw.

 

[PSIBoy]

Your posts are kind of funny to read, cause you dismiss perfectly viable moves like F-Smash and D-Air while insisting we hold out hope for what is arguably one of the worst smash attacks in the entire game: U-Smash. Truthfully, for any character, there is no move that does not have its use in some regard, whether that be a niche applicability or otherwise. Not all moves will fit all purposes (why would you be using D-Air as an approach in the first place?), but when used smartly, you realize how important they are to have in your arsenal. Getting early kills around 70% with F-Smash is nothing to laugh at.

As for U-Smash, I don't see much out-of-shield utility there. Seems like it'll only be worth the try if you're being pressured from behind, since the hitbox begins behind you. Otherwise, its startup is too slow to punish with. A simple grab to D-Throw will end up dealing more damage, considering the follow up, or if you're looking to get the opponent off the stage: B-Throw.

I can't seem to land an f-smash to save my life, even using reads. Even PKT2 I find I can land more than f-smash. D-air is an undeniably pathetic spike compared to all the others and Ness's Brawl spike. It would be best to just use f-air or n-air to gimp unless your opponent is coming straight up using a predicable recovery and you feel confident enough to land it and make it back alive. U-Smash I find uses for surprising an opponent, mainly landing from an air dodge after a d-throw.

 

[Earthbound360]

Your posts are kind of funny to read, cause you dismiss perfectly viable moves like F-Smash and D-Air while insisting we hold out hope for what is arguably one of the worst smash attacks in the entire game: U-Smash. Truthfully, for any character, there is no move that does not have its use in some regard, whether that be a niche applicability or otherwise. Not all moves will fit all purposes (why would you be using D-Air as an approach in the first place?), but when used smartly, you realize how important they are to have in your arsenal. Getting early kills around 70% with F-Smash is nothing to laugh at.

As for U-Smash, I don't see much out-of-shield utility there. Seems like it'll only be worth the try if you're being pressured from behind, since the hitbox begins behind you. Otherwise, its startup is too slow to punish with. A simple grab to D-Throw will end up dealing more damage, considering the follow up, or if you're looking to get the opponent off the stage: B-Throw.

You completely missed the point here lol. I NEVER said that all moves fill all purposes. Who on earth would think that?

Please tell me how you are landing fsmash. It REALLY doesn't work against good opponents. If they know how to get out of PKF, it's hard to even land a grab. Some characters can even jab you out of PKF, and since fsmash has like no range, those jabs will hit you before you get through the startup. Opponents landing would probably be the most viable situation, but even then, the range on fsmash makes this incredibly hard to do. Ganon's utilt can kill people at 70% too. I understand it's like 50x more impossible to land, but the point is, the power doesn't mean jack squat if you'll never land it on anyone good. Just being blunt dude, fsmash just ain't as good as you're making it out to be.

The major difference here is versatility. Fsmash is what it presents itself as. A strong, slow, short ranged move. The only unique property it possesses is its ability to reflect things. That's why we've reached its potential, there's nothing more to know about this move. No other uses, it's just strong and that's it. Usmash however has its quirks, and I believe that we'll be able to find uses for them. For example, it's back-forward-back hit style, ability to be used out of shield, out of dash, and better disjointed hitbox.

In regards to my mentioning of Ness' aerials, you once again missed the point. I was referring to OoS punishes. In Brawl, if someone bashed your shield, a SH aerial would usually be the best measure of punishing them. However, in Smash 4, Ness' SH height and lowered fair range makes fair out of shield not very viable (and weak too). Dair used to be an option too, until the Smash 4 nerfs came. And this is what you totally missed. I was NOT saying use dair as an approach. I'm not stupid, dair is a bad on stage move. However, Brawl dair was a good on stage move, and that's what I was referring to. So that leaves us with nair and usmash OoS. Nair is admittedly still good, but I don't think it punishes everything that usmash posibly could.

And come on dude, clearly I meant when they're not in grab range. A good opponent won't make it that easy for you.

In addition to this, I feel liek usmash might be the best move to use when catching someone landing. It's quick enough, hits in a huge arc (for those who like to try and play DI mindgames with you as they land), and can be used out of dash. As a bonus, it puts them right back into the air again.

 

[Boy Jordan]

You completely missed the point here lol. I NEVER said that all moves fill all purposes. Who on earth would think that?

Please tell me how you are landing fsmash. It REALLY doesn't work against good opponents. If they know how to get out of PKF, it's hard to even land a grab. Some characters can even jab you out of PKF, and since fsmash has like no range, those jabs will hit you before you get through the startup. Opponents landing would probably be the most viable situation, but even then, the range on fsmash makes this incredibly hard to do. Ganon's utilt can kill people at 70% too. I understand it's like 50x more impossible to land, but the point is, the power doesn't mean jack squat if you'll never land it on anyone good. Just being blunt dude, fsmash just ain't as good as you're making it out to be.

The major difference here is versatility. Fsmash is what it presents itself as. A strong, slow, short ranged move. The only unique property it possesses is its ability to reflect things. That's why we've reached its potential, there's nothing more to know about this move. No other uses, it's just strong and that's it. Usmash however has its quirks, and I believe that we'll be able to find uses for them. For example, it's back-forward-back hit style, ability to be used out of shield, out of dash, and better disjointed hitbox.

In regards to my mentioning of Ness' aerials, you once again missed the point. I was referring to OoS punishes. In Brawl, if someone bashed your shield, a SH aerial would usually be the best measure of punishing them. However, in Smash 4, Ness' SH height and lowered fair range makes fair out of shield not very viable (and weak too). Dair used to be an option too, until the Smash 4 nerfs came. And this is what you totally missed. I was NOT saying use dair as an approach. I'm not stupid, dair is a bad on stage move. However, Brawl dair was a good on stage move, and that's what I was referring to. So that leaves us with nair and usmash OoS. Nair is admittedly still good, but I don't think it punishes everything that usmash posibly could.

And come on dude, clearly I meant when they're not in grab range. A good opponent won't make it that easy for you.

In addition to this, I feel liek usmash might be the best move to use when catching someone landing. It's quick enough, hits in a huge arc (for those who like to try and play DI mindgames with you as they land), and can be used out of dash. As a bonus, it puts them right back into the air again.

Firstly, I think you're taking my post a little too personally. No one is calling you stupid. I apologize if I had a demeaning tone in my prior post; it was meant to be taken lightly. That said, I still disagree with you on a lot of points here. F-Smash has a laggy startup compared to the rest of Ness's moves, but it's nowhere near as slow as you're arguing. I've been able to reliably use it to punish whiffed attacks such as Donkey Kong's Up-Special, Bowser's Down-Tilt, and most missed aerials that do not auto-cancel. Getting opponents not only in the air but off the stage is an important control play, and F-Smash does just that rather well, if it doesn't flat out just take the stock. Its range is smaller in comparison to its past forms, but still usable. There's really not much for me to say on it. I just won a local tourney using only Ness, and about five stocks of the night were claimed with his F-Smash alone. Granted, if players are can avoid being hit, then it's not going to do much at all, but what kind of argument is that? That applies to all attacks in the game, not just this one. Use F-Smash to punish, not to follow up on a startup such as PK Fire or otherwise. Hard reads lead to opportune punishes. This game is about mindgames more than anything else.

Seems your primary argument for U-Smash being versatile is its surprise factor. I really don't see much surprise there. You mentioned "it's quick enough," but it really isn't. It has a hefty amount of startup and is rather telegraphed. Its hitboxes are staggered as well, being rather weak in certain spots. Using it to get opponents back in the air is a fine purpose. Nothing to dispute there. I'd just rather use U-Tilt, which is quicker on startup and allows me to follow up with an aerial more quickly, or if they're already grounded, bait out the grab. These are just more reliable tactics. In the end, if you want to use U-Smash, I'm not dogmatically claiming you can't or shouldn't. I'm more so commenting on your dislike for Ness's other moves that really aren't as bad as you claim. In the end, it's up to you how you want to play, but mastering a character implies being able to put all of their moves to best application. You also mentioned some stuff about D-Air, but I really don't have much else to add on that, and I'm running now to catch the bus. Take care man. Again, I mean no offense in my responses. Just arguing cause it's fun and healthy for player growth. Iron sharpens iron, as they say.

 

[Earthbound360]

What I meant by the "useful only on hit" obviousness is simply that the power doesn't outweigh how impossible it is to hit with this move, moreso at the sweetspot (which I feel was narrowed in this game). I feel like it serves a similar role to which Falcon and Ganon's fsmash serves. Just a slow, powerful move that you use if you can for some reason hit with it, but they have a bunch of other better kill moves you should be using for the most part anyways. As for punishment, I guess it can be used if the opponent REALLY screw up, like BAD, but then again, I'd really just rather use PK Fire. Tons more range, leads into a combo that would probably do just as much as the bat (PKF, pummel, dthrow, fair, etc.), not sure about the speed but I swear that anything in Ness' movset is faster than fsmash barring like... PK Flash. Same goes for the hard reads too, I'd rather use PK Fire. It's even better at punishing those spot dodges/rolls because of it's longer lasting hitbox, as opposed to fsmash's 1-2 active frames (don't quote me on that).
Overall, I just feel that almost every situation in which you'd want to use fsmash is outclassed by another option that's just more reliable. Maybe a little weaker, but tons more reliable. And you need that room for error, because if you miss with fsmash, you're dead. I'd rather go straight for the throw or aerial if someone misses a move, and I'd recommend PK Fire as a more reliable punish or read. I mean, 24% might seem good at first, but even a combo as simple as grab, pummel, uthrow, PKT would do similar damage, all while being a lot safer and more dependable. It's just not a risk ever really worth taking IMO.

IIRC, usmash is faster than fsmash, and does 9% throughout, but I haven't experimented with it yet. But it's not really just the "surprise" factor, it's everything that this smash does that others don't Other things to note are its incredibly long lasting hitbox, as well as its uncanny nature of coming out so low to the ground (I'm pretty sure you can hit people off the ledge with it still). I believe it's like the Megaman of Ness' moves, and by that I mean, it doesn't appear great at first, but there's a lot more to it, and by the end, it probably still won't be that great, but usable.
Utilt has significantly less horizontal range and a mediocre disjoint (if it's even a disjoint, haven't tested this move enough either), not to mention you can't use it out of a dash to catch people landing. Ever try to catch a Wario who's landing? It's tough mang, you need something that'll cover all of the places he could possibly fall to, can be used out of a dash, all while keeping yourself of the the range of his own aerials. Utilt just can't do that for you. Not saying that utilt doesn't have its place, it most certainly does, but I honestly believe that usmash would be one of the better moves to use in a scenario similar to what I just mentioned.

I apologize for sounding hostile though. I DID want to discuss the smashes though. But I still stand by my argument that usmash could possibly have some use to be discovered in the future due to its unique properties that haven't been explored, and that fsmash isn't worth the time. Sorry to be blunt in my opinion, but I don't want to sugar coat something that isn't outstanding. The last thing I want to do is convince people to use something that isn't good. I'm not saying you're just straight up wrong here about fsmash, but just in general. I wouldn't go around spouting "PK FLASH IS THE ONLY EDGEGUARD YOU'LL EVER NEED!" lest I somehow get a Ness player to lose a tournament because he kept going for it.

 

[Noa.]

Wow so harsh on Fsmash. Again it's a very good move because it kills so much earlier than our reliable kill options. It's kind of like an x factor you have to deal with Ness. Ness has some kill options that are very very potent but difficult to land. PKT2, fsmash, and pk flash are those options. Pk flash is almost useless, but it's possible to land the former two, even on great players. It just requires hard reads and baits. Obviously they're not reliable but the reward on them is so high.

 

[PKBeam]

so i tried to do some frame data.
it's very very confusing for me to interpret and i probably read it wrong but ill post it in here when im done.

btw Fsmash is horrid. Frame 21 hitbox...

 

[PKBeam]

ok so i did some frame data but the method i used was IMO inaccurate (filming my gamepad screen with a phone) and im pretty sure i miscounted a lot of attacks. but only by one or two frames. not a lot.

Spoiler

Jump
In air on: 6

Airdodge
Total: 34 (or 33?)
Invincible: 4-31 (or 30?)
Landing Lag: 23

Jab
Total: 44
Hits: 4, 13, 26

Ftilt
Total: 35
Hits: 7

Dtilt
Total: 14
Hits: 3

Utilt
Total: 32
Hits: 8

Fsmash
Total: 54
Hits: 21

Usmash
Total: 55
Hits
--In Front, first hits: 9 (perfect spacing is a few frames later)
--Behind, perfect spacing: 26 (first hits is pretty much same as In Front)

Dsmash
Total: 47
Hits
--Behind, first hits: 10
--Behind, perfect spacing: 13
--In Front, first hits: 23 (or 22)
--In Front, perfect spacing: 31

Nair
Total: 35
Hits: 5
Landing Lag: 19

Fair
Total: 40
Hits: 9, 17, 27, 31 (last 3 may be off by one or two frames, but there is a constant hitbox)

Dair
Total: 59
Hits: 20
Landing Lag: 29

Uair
Total: 43
Hits: 9
Landing Lag: 15

Bair
Total: 37
Hits: 10
Landing Lag: 17

PSI Magnet
Aerial
--Total (shortest down-B, aerial): 47
--Magnet first appears: 10
Grounded
--Total: 22
--Magnet first appears: 11

PK Flash
Shortest
--Total: 60
--Hits: 44
Longest
--Total: 178
--Hits: 162

PK Fire
Total
--Fire: 100
--Animation: 59
Bolt first comes out: 21
Landing Lag: 30

PK Thunder 1
Hits: 20
Ending lag: 40

PK Thunder 2
Total: 61 (Hit to Helpless)

Grab
Total: 33
Grabs: 6

Dash Grab
Total: 41
Grabs: 7

Pivot Grab
Total: 41
Grabs: 10

Roll (Both)
Total: 30
Intangibility: 4-23

Spotdodge
Total: 27
Intangibility: 3-20

Ledge Attack
Total: 58
Hits: 20
Intangibility: 2-20

Ledge Jump
Total: 15
Intangibility: 2-12

Ledge Roll
Total: 49
Intangibility: 2-24

 

[Noa.]

Idk how reliable the frame data is, but it's a great start and at least we have something now. Good work.

 

[Earthbound360]

Thank you thank you thank you PK Beam for your efforts. Even if it's slightly inaccurate in some places, the core understanding is there, and is valuable information.

Btw, any chance you could test out what frame usmash hits on the back side of Ness, RIGHT when he takes the yo-yo out? It hits behind him before it hits in front of him. Also, perhaps how long it takes to drop magnet?

This also reinforces my argument on the smashes. PK Fire comes out as fast as the bat, and usmash is Ness' fastest smash.

 

[The 0ne]

@ Earthbound360 , Just to clarify, usmash actually doesn't do 9 damage throughout. It does 9 right when it comes out in back and in front, then goes from 13-15 at its height, then down to about 12 at the end in back. at its height, kills at around 135%.

Oh yeah, and the bat's reflector is stronger than Fox's shine. Keep that in mind. 2x the strength and speed verus 1.5x. In fact, it's the one of strongest reflectors in the game. But good luck starting it in the air. But that's what Magnet's for. And if it's a physical projectile, well, use Paula's Pray.

 

[The 0ne]

As a follow-up to my earlier post, I occasionally use the bat to reflect projectiles like the following (if they're not here, I would never go for it):

Greninja's Water Shuriken
Samus's Missiles (of course you could just troll and crouch) and even Charge Shot if I'm far away sometimes, but mostly when it's not fully charged
Maybe Olimar's Pikmin (side-b and fsmash)
Link's Arrows and boomerang
I guess Sheik's grenade, but if you have time for the bat, you have time for magnet, unless you predict that she'll do Bouncing Fish or some other attack at you, in which case it'll be pretty funny when she gets blown up with twice the power of a potent kill move
Lucario's Aura Sphere and Force Palm. With Force Palm it's especially good, because if you try to absorb it, you might get grabbed. But if you try to reflect it, there's no grab armor in this game. He'll get hit with both the Force Palm and the bat itself
Falco's Reflector (never tried it in a match, but it works!)
Wii Fit Trainer's Soccer Ball and Sun Salutation, same rule as for Charge Shot
Luigi's Fireball
Ness's PK Flash if it's close to him. Kills at zero, so watch out if you're on the receiving end, guys.
Dark Pit's Arrows (easier than Pit's to do so)
ZSS's Paralyzer (REALLY surprises people, more so than you might think)
Mega Man's fsmash if the screw up, Metal Blade (I used to try to reflect Crash Bomber, until I learned it's absorbable. I just let it hit me. When he comes in for a grab, I just cancel the absorption into a spotdodge)
Duck Hunt's Can (so he can't use it anymore), and Wild Gunman. I suppose Clay Pigeon as well, but it doesn't have the same effect because he can choose to not set it off
PAC-MAN's Fire Hydrant (OMG this is gahlike)
Villager's Lloid (kills him if he's riding it) and Tree (OMG this is gahlike)
Robin's everything (reflecting Elwind is pretty funny) except maybe Thoron, but again with the crouch, and also magnet
Zelda's Phantom (OMG this is gahlike)
Pikachu's Thunder (OMG this is gahlike) literally reflects his thunder, then hits him INTO it.
Bowser Jr.'s Koopa Clown Cannon
The stars next to the Yoshi Bomb (hilarious)
Sonic's Spring (also hilarious)
Kirby's Shockwave after Final Cutter
Bowser's and Charizard's Fire Breath (actually stops the attack immediately, which is cool)

 

[PKBeam]

which stupid Ness tried to PK Flash you when you could just go up to them?

 

[PKBeam]

Thank you thank you thank you PK Beam for your efforts. Even if it's slightly inaccurate in some places, the core understanding is there, and is valuable information.

Btw, any chance you could test out what frame usmash hits on the back side of Ness, RIGHT when he takes the yo-yo out? It hits behind him before it hits in front of him. Also, perhaps how long it takes to drop magnet?

This also reinforces my argument on the smashes. PK Fire comes out as fast as the bat, and usmash is Ness' fastest smash.

counting from first frame magnet is not visible to the frame before i first see shield, magnet ending lag is 13. at least the IASA.
usmash first hits behind him frame 6.

 

[Earthbound360]

counting from first frame magnet is not visible to the frame before i first see shield, magnet ending lag is 13. at least the IASA.
usmash first hits behind him frame 6.

Good lord, that makes usmash Ness' fastest ground move barring jab and dtilt. What was this nonsense of usmash being slow again??

I've been experimenting with it a lot as a roll punish, with a lot of positive results (for one night at least). I need a little more time to base my opinion, but I'm leaning towards "deserves to be used more" already.

 

[Tikao]

that smallish hitbox doesn't seem that usefull to me in a real match, it just isn't staying out for long enough, you need to first read the roll, then stay at the spot were this hitbox will hit and perfectly time it because it barely stays out, if you hit, then you don't even get that much out of it, because of the endlag of usmash, if you don't hit, then the same endlag is a problem for you

if you already red the roll, then you could just dsmash, it's around 4 frames slower, but an overall bigger hitbox, stays out longer (behind you) as well as dealing more damage and giving you more momentum, since it deals more knockback and therefore you might actually be able to use that to follow up after your endlag, it could also send them offstage or even kill them (if they're near the edge and in killing range) + it is easier to land than that usmash hitbox

and even this dsmash needs a read and is risky, it is high risk, high reward (in tearms of momentum) but usmash is high risk low reward

 

[Earthbound360]

In a stationary situation dsmash would probably be more rewarding yes, but say you also need to remember that usmash can be used out of a dash, dsmash cannot. Also, that behind hitbox is actually pretty nice considering dsmash has a stupid blind spot right on Ness. Usmash does not. And usmash can lead to annoying PKT juggles. Who doesn't love PKT juggles?

I played around with this a bit more today, and I was running up to people and using usmash when they were forced to take a defensive maneuver (like after they landed from a recovery special or something). I ran in, and gave a short charge to usmash, and released it. If they spot dodge, it hits them. If they roll back, it hits them. If they roll forwards, they usually weren't able to punish. If they just shield it... well you're probably screwed there to be honest, but you'd be screwed with dsmash in that situation too.

That being said, this was just against some online randoms, so I'm not saying it's fullproof or even great, but I think people should try it as a roll reading move at least a bit before saying it sucks. Remember, the lack of the blind spot is really nice.