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The Problem of Evil

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Dre89

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For those of who you don't know what it is, the POE is the claim that the reality of evil is incompatible with an omnipotent (infinitetly powerful), omniscient (infinitely wise), and omnibenevolent (infinitely good) personal God.

I'd like to see what you guys have on this issue (the field of philosophy is called theodicy for those who don't know). I find this is a good way to separate the educated athiests from the undeducated athiests.

Uneducated athiests are funny because they throw the POE at theists as if it's such a groundbreaking question, and as if theists haven't been providing answers to it for hundreds of years (the POE actually began with Christians).

Educated athiests will take a theist's defence of evil and refute it. So I'm curious to see what this debate will bring.
 

Sieguest

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I've always seen this as a thing with so many variables in it.

One can reference many religious texts as well as sources concerning morality and see how they define good and evil. And one central thing can be drawn from all of them.

You can't define good without evil, and vice versa.
So maybe God created evil in order to let us define good. Maybe he created evil to teach us a lesson in what is good.

Another way I look at it, is that God gave us knowledge and we have abused that knowledge and done evil. In that way, evil is a creation of man. One may ask "then why did God give us that knowledge then?" An answer to that would be because we need that knowledge to do what is good, we've just twisted that knowledge.

Another way to approach it would be to say that God created evil as a punishment for wrongdoing. Then it begs the question "doesn't that contradict the omnibenevolence of God?" An answer would be: No because just as a parent who chastises their child, God does it because He knows what is best and is helping to direct one to their future.

On the other hand, some can mention that if God creates evil to chastise others, or to teach others what is good and such. Then how come evil acts such as stealing punish a person who was innocent and rewards someone who has done wrong? Then who's to say that evil is in fact a creation of man, not of God and therefore does not infringe upon God's character.

In this way, I think it comes down to who is truly the creator of evil. Is it God? Or is it man?
 
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I personally believe that true evil was created or begun due to man.

Within history, humans have received knowledge, and because of that, they were able to take it two different ways; to "good" or to "evil". If you were to be given the knowledge of how to do something, would you do that to inhibit others or benefit others?

The Lord gave us knowledge, yet watched as some of us, but of course not all, twisted it and turned it into something that is detrimental to overall wellbeing.

We used knowledge in a detrimental way, not beneficial. In this way I agree with what SodiumChloride above me stated.
 

blazedaces

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For those of who you don't know what it is, the POE is the claim that the reality of evil is incompatible with an omnipotent (infinitetly powerful), omniscient (infinitely wise), and omnibenevolent (infinitely good) personal God.

I'd like to see what you guys have on this issue (the field of philosophy is called theodicy for those who don't know). I find this is a good way to separate the educated athiests from the undeducated athiests.

Uneducated athiests are funny because they throw the POE at theists as if it's such a groundbreaking question, and as if theists haven't been providing answers to it for hundreds of years (the POE actually began with Christians).

Educated athiests will take a theist's defence of evil and refute it. So I'm curious to see what this debate will bring.
If evil did not exist, how would we know that God was all good? Seriously. Think about it. Morality can't be based on God's word alone.

Either we believe God is all good because he is "good" or we believe whatever god does is simply deemed "good". But honestly, how would we know the difference between God and "The Devil" (I only put it in quotations because other religions, Judaism for example, do not believe in the devil) were that the case?

Honestly, try to imagine a world without evil... just try. What do you see? How would people learn to be good in such a world? Even in a world where every being is "good" (and we'll confine this to humans and ignore the fact that animals are not deemed evil when they eat other animals, though I doubt an animal being eaten would agree) people would still make mistakes, which would result in possibly evil acts.

God has very little to do with the POE in my opinion, but I can completely understand why it's often brought up to refute him...

-blazed
 
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For those of who you don't know what it is, the POE is the claim that the reality of evil is incompatible with an omnipotent (infinitetly powerful), omniscient (infinitely wise), and omnibenevolent (infinitely good) personal God.

I'd like to see what you guys have on this issue (the field of philosophy is called theodicy for those who don't know). I find this is a good way to separate the educated athiests from the undeducated athiests.

Uneducated athiests are funny because they throw the POE at theists as if it's such a groundbreaking question, and as if theists haven't been providing answers to it for hundreds of years (the POE actually began with Christians).

Educated athiests will take a theist's defence of evil and refute it. So I'm curious to see what this debate will bring.
I honestly don't believe there is evil, or at least an "objective" evil. There is nothing that is objectively evil.

What is "evil" molds itself around how our society is balanced. In the dark ages, it was evil to study medicine or have sex out of wedlock but a deed for good to burn a witch or heretic; now it's perfectly normal and acceptable (and in fact wished by ones peers!) to study medicine or have sex out of wedlock, but murder is so utterly held back that we aren't allowed to zap mass murderers.

The only way something could be "objectively" evil is if society could never accept it, and this is hardly possible except in cases such as the short-term extinction of the species. But even then it's merely a subjective evil that will probably be kept for a long, long time.

Without objective evils, it is very possible to have an infinitely powerful and wise god; and depending on your definition he may be infinitely good.

To me, it seems like less of a conundrum with "evil" (as most of it comes from human error and free will which can be easily explained away) and more of a conundrum with "disaster", regarding natural disasters mankind has no power over such as massive tsunamis swamping southeast Asia, volcanoes stopping air travel for months over Europe, earthquakes completely destroying Haiti and killing hundreds there... stuff like that.


With objective evils, it all comes down to free will I suppose-evil in this world exists because god does not want to pervert free will (right? I'm pretty sure this is the more common argument used, correct me if I'm wrong). But this brings up the paradox of free will in a universe where a certain being therein knows everything that will and can happen. If god created me, knowing that in my life I would sin and go to hell, isn't that horribly perverse justice?
 

Sieguest

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If evil did not exist, how would we know that God was all good? Seriously. Think about it. Morality can't be based on God's word alone.

Either we believe God is all good because he is "good" or we believe whatever god does is simply deemed "good". But honestly, how would we know the difference between God and "The Devil" (I only put it in quotations because other religions, Judaism for example, do not believe in the devil) were that the case?

Honestly, try to imagine a world without evil... just try. What do you see? How would people learn to be good in such a world? Even in a world where every being is "good" (and we'll confine this to humans and ignore the fact that animals are not deemed evil when they eat other animals, though I doubt an animal being eaten would agree) people would still make mistakes, which would result in possibly evil acts.

God has very little to do with the POE in my opinion, but I can completely understand why it's often brought up to refute him...

-blazed
I see what you're saying, but then we wouldn't have the problem of evil if we can't define it.

So how do we come up with our definition of morality?


I honestly don't believe there is evil, or at least an "objective" evil. There is nothing that is objectively evil.

What is "evil" molds itself around how our society is balanced. In the dark ages, it was evil to study medicine or have sex out of wedlock but a deed for good to burn a witch or heretic; now it's perfectly normal and acceptable (and in fact wished by ones peers!) to study medicine or have sex out of wedlock, but murder is so utterly held back that we aren't allowed to zap mass murderers.

The only way something could be "objectively" evil is if society could never accept it, and this is hardly possible except in cases such as the short-term extinction of the species. But even then it's merely a subjective evil that will probably be kept for a long, long time.

Without objective evils, it is very possible to have an infinitely powerful and wise god; and depending on your definition he may be infinitely good.

To me, it seems like less of a conundrum with "evil" (as most of it comes from human error and free will which can be easily explained away) and more of a conundrum with "disaster", regarding natural disasters mankind has no power over such as massive tsunamis swamping southeast Asia, volcanoes stopping air travel for months over Europe, earthquakes completely destroying Haiti and killing hundreds there... stuff like that.


With objective evils, it all comes down to free will I suppose-evil in this world exists because god does not want to pervert free will (right? I'm pretty sure this is the more common argument used, correct me if I'm wrong). But this brings up the paradox of free will in a universe where a certain being therein knows everything that will and can happen. If god created me, knowing that in my life I would sin and go to hell, isn't that horribly perverse justice?
Then again, is the POE asserting that objective evils exist?
This problem could exist on a personal basis as well. Take for example Christianity. There are certain things viewed as evil. Does the existence of those evils in the world compromise the existence of God Christians follow?
 

Dre89

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God has very little to do with the POE in my opinion, but I can completely understand why it's often brought up to refute him...
God has everything to do with the POE. The question is about whether the reality of evil is compatible with the notion of a good God. The entire debate is based on God's motives and reasons.

I'd like to participate in this debate, but I don't know where to start because everyone has said different things.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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I've always seen this as a thing with so many variables in it.

One can reference many religious texts as well as sources concerning morality and see how they define good and evil. And one central thing can be drawn from all of them.

You can't define good without evil, and vice versa.
So maybe God created evil in order to let us define good. Maybe he created evil to teach us a lesson in what is good.

Another way I look at it, is that God gave us knowledge and we have abused that knowledge and done evil. In that way, evil is a creation of man. One may ask "then why did God give us that knowledge then?" An answer to that would be because we need that knowledge to do what is good, we've just twisted that knowledge.

Another way to approach it would be to say that God created evil as a punishment for wrongdoing. Then it begs the question "doesn't that contradict the omnibenevolence of God?" An answer would be: No because just as a parent who chastises their child, God does it because He knows what is best and is helping to direct one to their future.

On the other hand, some can mention that if God creates evil to chastise others, or to teach others what is good and such. Then how come evil acts such as stealing punish a person who was innocent and rewards someone who has done wrong? Then who's to say that evil is in fact a creation of man, not of God and therefore does not infringe upon God's character.

In this way, I think it comes down to who is truly the creator of evil. Is it God? Or is it man?
Your forgetting the all powerful nature of god. If God were all powerful, his chastising would be infinitely effective would it not?

Also, wouldn't God be able to stop the evil occurring being infinitely powerful, and all knowing? Yet he doesn't. Furthermore, being all knowing, he'd have to know exactly what evil and good are, so the idea of distinguishing between the two of them doesn't really make sense in my eyes.

If he did it to show us what evil and good are, why not just show us, rather than make it happen? A massive joint hallucination ought to do the trick.
 

blazedaces

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I see what you're saying, but then we wouldn't have the problem of evil if we can't define it.

So how do we come up with our definition of morality?
I am growing tired of moving into a moral relativist versus moral realist argument in every other thread... but here goes:

Look, as someone who has had a crisis of faith, I have tried to see the world without God and have come to conclusions maybe others who never tried to do so could not possibly have done. For example, I think regardless of the existence of God or Man, logic exists (I'm clearly a realist). Most people don't have too much of an issue with this one. I believe the same thing of ethics/morality. Ethics is simply the logical application towards morals (sets of beliefs). If logic is objective, then we can construct an objective system of ethics.

Often people have issue with this because they claim people might not agree with that particular system. But what does people's agreement have to do with objectivism? If people disagree with you that 2+2=4 does that all of a sudden become a subjective truth?

Others issue is that there can be more than one system, therefore it is not objective. Most people of this stature have never taken courses in logic (no offense intended) and don't realize that there are more than one system of logic. Furthermore, different societies (roman numerals come to mind) have constructed different systems of numbers for math as well as even different constructions (plus, multiply, equals, these aren't the only possible ways people have thought of to manipulate numbers). Does that make math less objective?

God has everything to do with the POE. The question is about whether the reality of evil is compatible with the notion of a good God. The entire debate is based on God's motives and reasons.

I'd like to participate in this debate, but I don't know where to start because everyone has said different things.
Like I said, I can understand that line of reasoning... I'm just going to humbly disagree. In my eyes regardless of anything God could possibly do, evil would still exist.

Your forgetting the all powerful nature of god. If God were all powerful, his chastising would be infinitely effective would it not?

Also, wouldn't God be able to stop the evil occurring being infinitely powerful, and all knowing? Yet he doesn't. Furthermore, being all knowing, he'd have to know exactly what evil and good are, so the idea of distinguishing between the two of them doesn't really make sense in my eyes.

If he did it to show us what evil and good are, why not just show us, rather than make it happen? A massive joint hallucination ought to do the trick.
As I just mentioned above in response to Dre I don't see how God could possibly rid the world of "evil". So I'm challenging you to do it. Show me a world where evil doesn't exist, and I will show you a world, where evil DOES exist.

I referred to it in my previous post, but even in a world where every being was inherently as "good" as can be (let's ignore moral relativism for now, let's just say that were possible to begin with) evil would still occur. We sometimes use the phrase "life isn't fair"... sometimes "bad stuff" happens and it's no one's fault. People make mistakes. We still need to eat (as do other animals).

Someone in the world has to be a garbage man, someone in the world has to clean sewers, or work at a gas station, or be picked last in gym class, or get the lowest grade...

So show me this world that doesn't have evil in it...

-blazed
 

Dre89

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The question of whether God could have made creation without evil is contentious.

There are two main arguments that relate to this (I'm summing them up really quickly obviously)-

Free Will Defence- Evil is a result of free will. Therefore, had God not given us free will, there'd be no evil.

Imperfection Solution- God cannot create a being that is equally perfect as Himself, therefore all beings He creates are imperfect, resulting in evil. In this sense, evil in creation can not be avoided. However, I am highly critical of this argument, I wrote a few paragraphs in an essay trying to debunk this.
 
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The question of whether God could have made creation without evil is contentious.

There are two main arguments that relate to this (I'm summing them up really quickly obviously)-

Free Will Defence- Evil is a result of free will. Therefore, had God not given us free will, there'd be no evil.
This presupposes that he did give us free will, which, as I mentioned above, I find to be a farce (if we assume that god exists in the first place, which is necessary to defend the argument in the first place).

Imperfection Solution- God cannot create a being that is equally perfect as Himself, therefore all beings He creates are imperfect, resulting in evil. In this sense, evil in creation can not be avoided. However, I am highly critical of this argument, I wrote a few paragraphs in an essay trying to debunk this.
I agree that this sounds a little fishy. However, why can't animals be evil? They are god's creations. Why can't plants, or rocks be evil? Are we the only ones far enough along to be accepted as evil, intelligence-wise? Does it depend on free will, in which case see arguments against free will?
Also, it makes no sense that a truly omnipotent creator would be unable to do anything-if he wanted to create us as perfect, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient beings, he would've been able to. Imperfection means he ****ed it up on purpose (making him the root of evil and leading back to free will arguments) or he isn't omnipotent.
 

Cyn

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The way I see it, the things that we consider evil: stealing, killing, ******, etc; are all done in the wild by other animals and what have you. Are they condemned or considered evil? No, that is the natural order of things. At some point in the distant past, humans were a lot more "apelike" and more than likely did these "evil things" as well. Would we condemn them for that? I hope not, I wouldn't. What really seperates humans from the rest of the animals is our ability empathize; we are able to put ourseleves into another's thought frame/feelings. When humans developed this advanced thinking skill, I believe we were able to start to distinguish what we considered to be "evil".

Whether or not there is a God based on all this, I can't be sure. I beileve there is something after death; but whether or not it's an old man sitting in the clouds in heaven, probably not. Besides, if there is a supreme being, how could we ever expect to know his (or her) thought processes and why (s)he permits the things that do happen?? No one really can be sure if there is a God based solely off of evil being in the world. Remember, ancient peoples of the world thought the sun was a God. What happens after death or who is waiting after death is one of the last great remaining mysteries, that unfortunately, no debate will resolve.

I want to say more but I'm at work so I need to get back to it. Good debate Dre. and everyone.
 

rvkevin

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Can someone make the link between freewill exists and evil exists?

This is my biggest problem with the free will defense. I don't see how free will exists leads to evil (gratuitous suffering) exists.
 

Sieguest

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Your forgetting the all powerful nature of god. If God were all powerful, his chastising would be infinitely effective would it not?
Just like a parent is all powerful to you when you are an infant?

No. Chastisement is merely punishing for doing "evil". The goal being to eventually condition you to associate a certain end to a certain action. And dissuade someone from performing that action. That doesn't mean that the person can't/won't perform the action.


Also, wouldn't God be able to stop the evil occurring being infinitely powerful, and all knowing? Yet he doesn't. Furthermore, being all knowing, he'd have to know exactly what evil and good are, so the idea of distinguishing between the two of them doesn't really make sense in my eyes.
He knows the difference. We don't. So the distinguishing between the two is done for us. Also he could stop the evil from occurring, but if he did. We would never know what evil or good was. Which then eliminates the whole idea of morality.

If he did it to show us what evil and good are, why not just show us, rather than make it happen? A massive joint hallucination ought to do the trick.
Why not be shown how to drive a car instead of receiving first hand experience by driving the car yourself? One learns faster and more completely via first hand experience.
An example being this.

I am growing tired of moving into a moral relativist versus moral realist argument in every other thread... but here goes:
I'm not really trying to make it that way =/.
I'm only asking, that if using the example you provided in your last post:

Honestly, try to imagine a world without evil... just try. What do you see? How would people learn to be good in such a world? Even in a world where every being is "good" (and we'll confine this to humans and ignore the fact that animals are not deemed evil when they eat other animals, though I doubt an animal being eaten would agree) people would still make mistakes, which would result in possibly evil acts.
How can we define morality, if we can't discern good and evil? Because without the other you can't define the first. That's all I asked, nothing more.


Often people have issue with this because they claim people might not agree with that particular system. But what does people's agreement have to do with objectivism? If people disagree with you that 2+2=4 does that all of a sudden become a subjective truth?
You make it seem as if we can't argue mathematics. Who was upped and given the authority that 2+2=4? Who said those names were determined to that physical appearance? What if the creator of mathematics wanted 2+2=3? Then you would be saying something totally different. It seems right because we've universally accepted that as correct. Had you grown up in a place where they teach you that 2+2= fish, and then you come here and are told that 2+2=4. You'd think we're some crazy loons and start referencing the math book that says 2+2=fish while we reference our math book that says 2+2=4.

Others issue is that there can be more than one system, therefore it is not objective. Most people of this stature have never taken courses in logic (no offense intended) and don't realize that there are more than one system of logic. Furthermore, different societies (roman numerals come to mind) have constructed different systems of numbers for math as well as even different constructions (plus, multiply, equals, these aren't the only possible ways people have thought of to manipulate numbers). Does that make math less objective?
Something being objective means that the same end is derived every single time for the same beginning, with no exceptions and no influences of the mind. Can you really tell me that logic in all cases isn't influenced by personal feelings?
The way I see it: the idea of logic is objective. But the nature of logic isn't always objective. (And I haven't taken courses in logic. Never knew they existed.). Just like the idea of mathematics is objective. But the base of math itself isn't, as evidenced by your post.
If logic was objective in all cases, then wouldn't we be deriving the same conclusions, every single time? That would make our minds unchangeable. Why are we having this debate right now if logic is solely objective.

I won't deny that there is objective logic. Using facts to derive more facts. But I disagree with saying that logic is objective all the time.


Like I said, I can understand that line of reasoning... I'm just going to humbly disagree. In my eyes regardless of anything God could possibly do, evil would still exist.
Understandably. I'm not here to change one's entire belief system, especially on something so touchy.

As I just mentioned above in response to Dre I don't see how God could possibly rid the world of "evil". So I'm challenging you to do it. Show me a world where evil doesn't exist, and I will show you a world, where evil DOES exist.

I referred to it in my previous post, but even in a world where every being was inherently as "good" as can be (let's ignore moral relativism for now, let's just say that were possible to begin with) evil would still occur. We sometimes use the phrase "life isn't fair"... sometimes "bad stuff" happens and it's no one's fault. People make mistakes. We still need to eat (as do other animals).

Someone in the world has to be a garbage man, someone in the world has to clean sewers, or work at a gas station, or be picked last in gym class, or get the lowest grade...

So show me this world that doesn't have evil in it...

-blazed
But that's just what I'm getting at. I'm not even throwing in moral relativism when I say this, but if we all began inherently good with no evil present at all. Then how would we know when evil happened? Considering that logic is truly objective, would we not conclude that whatever happens must be good since the only thing it could come from is good? Saying otherwise would then be saying that we could draw an object's polar opposite from the object itself in its pure form..
 

Dre89

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What animals do doesn't affect what humans do.

This is because of the distinction between natural and moral evils. Natural evils are those which occur independant of humans, animals predating on each other, natural disasters, diseases etc. They are considered necessary for continuation.

Moral evils are those committed by humans, for only they have the capacity to reason. Moral evils are actions which deviate away from being human, which corrupt one's nature. Moral evils are not necessary for continuation or flourishing, in fact they hinder both of these.

Natural evils are explained by what's called the Necessary Contrast Solution. The NSC compliments the Imperfect Solution (I mentioned it before, that evil occurs as a result of all beings being imperfect, because God cannot create a being as perfect as Himself). Basically, the NCS is that the imperfection of beings results in certain incompatibilities. For example, when a lion predates on a wilderbeast, what is good for the lion is of detriment to the wilderbeast.
 

rvkevin

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Natural evils are those which occur independant of humans, animals predating on each other, natural disasters, diseases etc. They are considered necessary for continuation.
But we must ask, why is it necessary for animals to prey on other animals? Why aren't all animals herbivores? This would solve the predator problem quite easily, yet it is not the case. As for natural disasters and diseases, I'm not convinced that all of them are necessary for continuation (continuation of what, humans?)
Moral evils are those committed by humans, for only they have the capacity to reason. Moral evils are actions which deviate away from being human, which corrupt one's nature. Moral evils are not necessary for continuation or flourishing, in fact they hinder both of these.
There's no explanation here, just description.
Natural evils are explained by what's called the Necessary Contrast Solution. The NSC compliments the Imperfect Solution (I mentioned it before, that evil occurs as a result of all beings being imperfect, because God cannot create a being as perfect as Himself). Basically, the NCS is that the imperfection of beings results in certain incompatibilities. For example, when a lion predates on a wilderbeast, what is good for the lion is of detriment to the wilderbeast.
How does evil result from being imperfect? If God is the standard of perfection, then one could easily be benevolent, omniscient, but not omnipotent and still be imperfect. If all beings can be benevolent and imperfect, then the NSC fails at explaining why there is evil in humans and animals alike.

How does imperfection result in those natural incompatibilities? I agree that a lion and a wilder beast have conflicting desires, but those conflicting desires don't need to exist (for example, if the lion was biologically "designed" to be a herbivore). This brings us back to the first point of why are there predators to begin with.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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As I just mentioned above in response to Dre I don't see how God could possibly rid the world of "evil". So I'm challenging you to do it. Show me a world where evil doesn't exist, and I will show you a world, where evil DOES exist.

I referred to it in my previous post, but even in a world where every being was inherently as "good" as can be (let's ignore moral relativism for now, let's just say that were possible to begin with) evil would still occur. We sometimes use the phrase "life isn't fair"... sometimes "bad stuff" happens and it's no one's fault. People make mistakes. We still need to eat (as do other animals).

Someone in the world has to be a garbage man, someone in the world has to clean sewers, or work at a gas station, or be picked last in gym class, or get the lowest grade...

So show me this world that doesn't have evil in it...

-blazed
Just because I or you can't comprehend something, doesn't mean it isn't possible. Can you comprehend a being in a superposition, being in two states at once, both a particle and a wave? I think not.

Furthermore, God is all powerful and all knowing. So, he'd know how to do this, and because he's all powerful, he'd be able to do this. Just because I don't know how to do this, doesn't mean an all knowing God wouldn't.
 

Cyn

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What animals do doesn't affect what humans do.
What animals do has great effect on what humans do depending on where you live.

This is because of the distinction between natural and moral evils. Natural evils are those which occur independant of humans, animals predating on each other, natural disasters, diseases etc..........
I wasn't refering to predation. But what about territory conflicts i.e. male lions killing each other for control of the pride? It isn't necessary, just something that is part of their nature. Humans still have territory conflicts, its part of our nature as well. Humans that cross a territory of another without permission can follow the same fate as the lion.
People assassinate leaders to make way for a new leader. Perhaps the old leader was a war mongering despot, and committing murder was the only way to bring about change and peace. Can't you say that it is the nature of a human to be "evil" sometimes? Can we fully deny our reptiallian brain? It's just who we are. We do what needs to be done to survive. Does committing a moral evil to survive still make it "evil"?


Moral evils are those committed by humans, for only they have the capacity to reason. Moral evils are actions which deviate away from being human, which corrupt one's nature. Moral evils are not necessary for continuation or flourishing, in fact they hinder both of these.
Perhaps it is in many a person's nature to be more animal, more "evil". Moral evil is based on perspective of the individual. Not everyone agrees on what is considered "evil".
Take away our civilization and comforts to where humans are starving and we rely on our instincts to live, morality will fly out the window. Would it be morally evil to kill another human because if you didn't you'd die of starvation or from the elements? If you have ever read The Road that is a good example of what I am talking about.



Natural evils are explained by what's called the Necessary Contrast Solution. The NSC compliments the Imperfect Solution (I mentioned it before, that evil occurs as a result of all beings being imperfect, because God cannot create a being as perfect as Himself). Basically, the NCS is that the imperfection of beings results in certain incompatibilities. .
What about us is imperfect? I'm willing to propose that humans are exactly like we are supposed to be at this point of our evolution.
 

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But we must ask, why is it necessary for animals to prey on other animals? Why aren't all animals herbivores? This would solve the predator problem quite easily, yet it is not the case. As for natural disasters and diseases, I'm not convinced that all of them are necessary for continuation (continuation of what, humans?)
There's no explanation here, just description.
There a number of possible responses to this, some theological, some not. I'd really only be able to present all of them if this was a 1 on 1 debate.

How does evil result from being imperfect? If God is the standard of perfection, then one could easily be benevolent, omniscient, but not omnipotent and still be imperfect. If all beings can be benevolent and imperfect, then the NSC fails at explaining why there is evil in humans and animals alike.
I agree that the Imperfection Solution (IS) and the NCS are flawed. I actually wrote a few paragraphs getting at a similar point to you in my essay. Again, the problem is, and I should have foreseen this, that I would virtually have to replicate my entire essay to provide adequate answers to all your questions, which I could only do in a one-on-one debate.

How does imperfection result in those natural incompatibilities? I agree that a lion and a wilder beast have conflicting desires, but those conflicting desires don't need to exist (for example, if the lion was biologically "designed" to be a herbivore). This brings us back to the first point of why are there predators to begin with.
This is related to my first answer.
 

rvkevin

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I would virtually have to replicate my entire essay to provide adequate answers to all your questions
Could you copy and paste the essay? Its fine if it doesn't cover the specific examples, anything covering the general objection would be acceptable.

Edit: A question about the DH, whats the point of people bringing up points if they are not willing to defend them, it seems like the antithesis of debating.
 

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If you want to read 3528 words be my guest. This is the essay I spoke about before where I got 88%, at a uni where rarely anyone gets over 85. My lecturer, who disagreed with alot of what I said, told me it is the fourth highest mark he has ever given in his career, so I was pretty surprised, I actually swore out loud when I realised what the mark was.

Note: I've actually recently developed a skeptical argument (it's probably been thought of before) which isn't in this essay (I developed it after I wrote it), so if you want to hear it let me know.






Are the Philosophical Concepts of God and Evil, According to St. Augustine, Compatible? Andre Iannucci

The problem of evil has long been debated amongst various philosophical, theological and social circles. Simply put, the problem of evil suggests that the reality of evil and an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God are incompatible. One of the most prominent objectors to this problem is St. Augustine. This paper will analyse Augustine’s three main defences of the reality of evil, whilst entertaining the thoughts of other thinkers, medieval and modern, in an attempt to establish whether in fact Augustine’s philosophical concepts of God and evil are compatible.

Although minor details may differ between individual arguments, the general skeptical argument appears to be the same. The problem of evil challenges the compatibility of God and evil; many thinkers find it difficult to accept the existence of a good god, considering the ever-present evil in the world. This argument is displayed in its simplest form by Donald A. Crosby, who concludes that the existence of a god who will resolve things in the end is a myth. A God that resolves is a good god, yet Crosby claims that the concept is false; if he did exist, he would be held accountable for evils, which are not in small measure, and being responsible for evil, when possessing the capacity to reason is not good . In a perhaps more comical context, Martin Cohen, in his 101 Philosophy Problems, delivers a very parallel argument; posing the complication of why the world is so corrupted when we are supposedly in the company of a good God . J. L. Mackie states-

In its simplest form the problem is this: God is omnipotent, God is wholly good, yet evils exists. There seems to be some contradiction between these three propositions, so that if any two of them were true the third would be false. But at the same time all three are essential parts of most theological positions: the theologian, it seems, at once must adhere and cannot consistently adhere to all three .


Mackie argues that good is opposed to evil. He professes that a good thing will always eliminate evil as far as it can, and that an omnipotent being is restricted by no limits in what it can do. It follows then, that a good omnipotent being would eliminate evil completely, though this is not the case in theism. Again, on a similar note, William Rowe provides a brief series of predicates attempting to argue against the existence of a personal God -

1. There exists instances of intense suffering which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally as bad or worse.
2. An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally as bad or worse.
3. There does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being .


Rowe argues that the second premise aligns with our basic moral principles, therefore is not debatable. The controversial premise for Rowe is the first one. He concedes that it is possible that all suffering that is ‘permitted’ could be permitted for the preservation of some greater good, although feels that one has reason to assert that there are in fact instances of pointless suffering . To extend to other thinkers would serve no further purpose, for their arguments would be relatively parallel, but one can certainly acknowledge the plausibility of the claim.

Before we entertain the scholarship of Augustine, we must first briefly establish a definition of evil. It appears that perhaps the most prominent depiction of evil is that it is an absence of being, a corruption of one’s nature. This is alluded to by Augustine, amongst other places, in his The Catholic and Manichean Ways of Life, where he states “you will see that evil is that which falls away from essence and tend to non-being” . Aquinas also comments on moral evil, claiming that God causes only the being of all that can be properly considered to be existing. On this ground, Aquinas concludes that evil is not created, for evil is not an existence, but the absence of such, but is a reality nonetheless . This is similar to the definition of evil that Augustine provides, that it is wrong to think of evil as an active principle, and that evil should be understood as ‘non-being’ .

The skeptic may object to this definition of evil, on the grounds that it has no sufficient base and that it conveniently favours a defence of the theistic God. These objections are not warranted, for the notion of evil as an absence of being is easily defendable. Naturally, anything that is an outright necessity for not only being itself, but for the flourishing of that being, is certainly a good. Not only that, but the manifestation of an evil would prove to be of great detriment to humanity, threatening its existence in its entirety. Had it been an opposite of good, evil would serve some necessary purpose, similar to how north and south magnetic forces compliment each other. Instead, evil only serves as an unnecessary corruption, a potential to undo the flourishing that God constructed. It is on these grounds that Augustine and Aquinas are justified in asserting that evil is in fact an absence of the good.

Gareth Matthews is considered to be one of the leading authorities on Augustine. In addressing Augustine’s defence of the reality of evil, Matthews concludes the following nine premises-

1. God is omnipotent
2. God is omnibenevolent
3. There is evil.
4. If there were a being that is both omnipotent and omnibenevolent, there would be no evil.
5. Conceivably, it is not the case that 4.
6. It is conceivable that there would be evil even if there existed an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being.
7. Even an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being might have a sufficient reason to allow evil to exist.
8. Any possible world in which there are human beings with free will is better than any possible world in which human beings lack free will.
9. It is conceivable that there is no possible world in which there are human beings with free will and no evil .

The first three premises constitute the Consistency Problem of Evil itself, and the fourth premise is the conclusion drawn by the skeptic. Matthews argues that this immediate conclusion is not warranted, for 4 is not an empirical truth, but rather an assumption, however probable. Subsequently, he argues 5 and 6; that is conceivable that evil and an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being are compatible, for such a being may have a sufficient reason to allow evil to exist .

In the Republic, Socrates argues 7 on the grounds that God is not responsible for evil. He proposes that since God is good, He is not as most people claim, the cause of everything that happens to human beings but of only a few things, for good things are fewer than bad ones in our lives. He alone is responsible for the good things, but we must find some other cause for the bad ones, not a God. Augustine cannot accept this is as justification for 7, for he believes that God created all matter from nothing; therefore must have arisen from that very matter willed into existence by God .

Similarly, Socrates’ position conflicts with Herbet McCabe’s portrayal of the theistic God. According to McCabe, God cannot interfere with the universe, not because He has not the power, but because He has too much; to interfere you have to be an alternative to, or alongside, what you are interfering with. If God is the cause of everything, there is nothing He is alongside. The notion that God is not responsible for all existences (in this case evil) is to put God alongside the universe, compromising His nature as being itself. McCabe believes that the notion of personal God has arisen in two different ways. The first is that people consider God to be a designer, in that they have an image of God as an artist or technician. McCabe feels this idea could be useful but ultimately misleading. The second way is that people find it absurd to label God impersonal. McCabe finds it improbable that God is impersonal because what is impersonal and non-intelligible in principle will always obey us if only we know the trick. He also dislikes the idea of God as a great impersonal life force, stating that these forces achieve nothing in their activities unless wielded in a context. Subsequently, he feels that because we refer to God as our creator, there has been a goal achieved, therefore it seems we cannot think of Him as impersonal. Despite this, McCabe is quick to subdue ideas of God forming intentions or making up His mind. To do this would be to confuse being personal with personality, which would be an error, for functions of personality are associated only with physical beings .

To support 7, Augustine instead employs what is now known as the Free Will Defence. The Free Will Defence posits that moral evil is a result of God bestowing free will on humanity. He considers a stray horse to be better than a stone, for the stone cannot be astray, just as he considers that which sins better than that which cannot sin. Whilst the nature of free will results in the potential to evil, it also intensifies the goodness of virtuous acts, and on these grounds Augustine concludes 8 and 9 . In favour of Augustine’s Free Will Defence is C. S. Lewis. Lewis similarly argues that not even omnipotence could create a society of free souls without creating the possibility, not necessity, of evil. He states that if God were to intervene with the practices of man and prevent such evil from occurring, the universe would eventually become meaningless, for nothing important would depend on man’s choices .

However, the free will explanation cannot be so simple. Peter Abelard considers sinning to be an educated consent to the bad will- “And so vice is that by which we are made prone to sin, that is, are inclined to consent to what is not fitting so that either we do it or forsake it” . This raises an interesting question, for there are a number of variables in free will. The frequency of the bad wills, and the intensity of temptations and vice are all variables which are not set ‘by default’, they are ordered by God in a particular way for a particular purpose. In fact, the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that humans are in fact “inclined to sin” . Moral evil may be a result of free will, but the intensity of that evil is a result of the architecture of that free will, an architecture which God is responsible for. Even if the skeptic concedes that free will is an adequate reason for evil, they may still pose the question of why the variables are set to such degrees, or more specifically, why they were not to lesser degrees.

The Free Will Defence also begs the question of whether God is good in creating beings of free-will, at the expense of peace (absence of suffering). One must also question God’s motives in creating free-will. Because God is the one and only self-necessary existence, the creation of other beings was never a necessity. At the point before creation, the only being God could relate to was Himself, therefore creation was a means to His end. According to Christian theology, God gave humans free-will so that they could chose to love Him. If suffering is a result of free-will, and free-will was bestowed upon us so we could choose to love God, one then wonders how good an action it was to allow suffering, in order to gratify His desire for love.

Augustine provides a second defence of evil, labeled the ‘Imperfection Solution’ by Matthews. Augustine argues that because God is the supreme good, He cannot create an entity distinct from Himself. As a result, any being that He creates will be imperfect, resulting in evil . I am inclined to believe that subscription to the Imperfection Solution is not immediately warranted, for several questions arise. The term ‘imperfection’ is slightly vague; it can refer to either limitation or corruption, which have different meanings. To elaborate, there is a distinction between the ‘perfecting’ of being, and the ‘perfection’ of being. The distinction assumes that there are various levels of perfection within the universe, and that they are measured by an objective standard (how similar those beings are to God).

Before we continue, this assumption must be briefly defended. The existence of levels of perfections is evidenced by the existence of various levels of superiority. These various levels of superiority are evidenced by the fact that there three are general types of beings: those which are purely means to an end, those which are created as means to an end, but flourish as ends in themselves, and that which is purely an end in itself. Beings which lack the capacity to commit moral goods and evils are purely means to ends; their goal is to contribute to an ecosystem or a natural cycle, and their individual goals or purposes cannot be altered by them themselves, only those who govern them. Humans, like all other beings, were created for a specific purpose, so they are a means to an end, but flourish as ends in themselves, for their moral capacities allow them to alter their desires and what they contribute towards - a capacity they would not posses if they were not intended to flourish as ends in themselves. Despite this capacity, humans cannot alter what true human flourishing is, only their ideal of it, so in a second way they are also means to an end. Finally, God, being self-necessary in nature, is purely an end in Himself. What is evidenced here is that certain beings relate to other beings in varying manners, suggesting there are degrees of superiority and perfection; for if all beings were equal all beings would be ends in themselves, requiring them all to have the same fundamental nature, which is not the case.

Now that the premise of varying degrees of perfection has been defended, we shall return to the distinction between the ‘perfecting’ and the ‘perfection’ of being. The ‘perfecting’ of being refers to the goal of a being to avoid a corruption of its nature. Failure to do so results in imperfection through corruption, which is how evil occurs. However, if a being perfects its nature, then it commits no evil. We see that the Imperfection solution may be potentially flawed because if all beings were created with perfect natures, there would be no evil, for the imperfection of beings only necessitates levels of perfection, not imperfection as a corruption of their natures.

Augustine’s third defence is referred to by Matthews as the “Necessary Contrast Solution”. The argument is that evils arise from incompatibilities of sorts, in that what is good for one being is of detriment to another. Augustine is not arguing that there could be no good without evil. Perhaps this point is supposed to compliment the Imperfection Solution. Since any creature will be less than perfect, the only way for creation to be beautiful will be for its privations to be ordered in a certain way. Thus an omnipotent and omnibenevolent being could not create a perfect creation. The most such a being could do is to create a world in which imperfections are ordered in such a way as to highlight the good. . McCabe offers a similar argument. McCabe does not defend God on the grounds that He is not omnipotent, that there is no evidence of evil, or that humans are solely responsible for it. He accepts that God is wholly omnipotent and that He made a world full of evil which were not put there by humans independently of God . He doesn’t attribute evil to free will, for he defines freedom not as independence from God, for we are always dependant on Him, but by means of “independence from other creatures” . However, he is similar to Augustine in that he employs an example of a lion and lamb, arguing that what is good for the lion results in what is destructive for the lamb .

St. Thomas Aquinas also provides a defence compatible with the Necessary Contrast Solution. Aquinas, in response to the question of whether evil is found in things, answers that the perfection of the universe requires that there should be inequality in things, so that every grade of goodness can be acknowledged. He continues to state that one grade of goodness is that of the good which cannot fail. Another grade of goodness is that of the good which can fail in goodness, and that this ground is found in existence itself. Subsequently there are those things which will permanently remain incorruptible, amongst those which are subject to corruption. As a result, the perfection of the universe requires there be some that are subject to corruption, and that at times they do fail to avoid this corruption .

However, Augustine’s position is complicated (and perhaps compromised) by his commentary on Heaven. He argues that those of us who make it to Heaven will be unable to delight in sin. He considers this not a suppression of the free will, but a freedom from sin. According to this claim, it is in fact possible to have free will whilst being unable to sin. Matthews himself concedes that this is perhaps a contradiction, for assuming that humans can have free will without evil defeats 9 and subsequently 8 .

This final claim potentially jeopardises the pillars of all three defences. The Free Will Defence is compromised in the sense that evil can be avoided whilst retaining free will, the Imperfection Solution is compromised in that imperfection is a reality whilst evil is avoided, and finally, the Necessary Contrast Solution is compromised in that if imperfection do not result in evils, there are no contrasts that need result in evil as well. Augustine defends this position by arguing that the physical world allows for humans to achieve merit, and that once the transition to Heaven or Hell is complete, one’s being remains permanently perfected or corrupted .

Augustine’s rebuttal is sound but for one possible hole. In ascending to Heaven and retaining a permanent state of perfection, it can perhaps be argued that the human essence is being compromised. In terms of the objective levels of perfection, what distinguished humans from other beings was that they could corrupt their natures on their own accord. This is what in fact made humans flourish as ends in themselves- they could alter what they desired and what it was they would contribute to. It can be argued then, that Augustine’s depiction of Heaven relegates humans to means to ends, for they can no longer alter what they contribute to. Similarly, earlier on in the paper C. S. Lewis argued that if man could not commit evil, his actions would be of little significance, and it appears this to be the case in Augustine’s Heaven as well.

As we dawn on the conclusion of this paper, there are various reflections that Augustine entices the reader into partaking. As a sweeping generalisation, Augustine’s defences are relatively sound, including his counter to his alleged Heaven contradiction, but for a few flaws. However, what stands out the most, is the apparent lack of certainty of the answer, not just of Augustine, but of all theistic scholars in general. The fact that several theistic scholars such as Augustine commit themselves to multiple answers suggests that their conclusions are not self-evident. In truth, it appears that the theist is seeking premises for a conclusion, rather than the other way around. Despite this, the apparent abundance of logic and merit in Augustine’s arguments leaves me to believe that his concepts of God and evil are in fact compatible.

Bibliography


Bacz, J. “C.S Lewis: The Problem of Pain.” The Newman Rambler (Spring 1999)


Cohen, M. 101Philosophy Problems


Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2005


Crosby, D. A. Living with Ambiguity: Religious Naturalism and the Menace of Evil (Suny Press, 2008) (Google Books)

Davies, B. An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion. Great Clarendon Street: Oxford University Press. 2004


Luscombe, D. E. Peter Abelard’s Ethics. Oxford, Clarendon Press. 1971.


Matthews, G. Augustine. 350 Main Street, Malden: Blackwell Publishing. 2005.

McCabe, H. God Matters. 11 Work Road, NY: Continuum, 2005.


Saint Augustine The Catholic and Manichean Ways of Life. Washington, The Catholic University of America Press. 1966.


Saint Augustine, The City of God against the Pagans, book XI, ch. 22, Cambridge: CUP.


St Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica, 1a. Q. 48, Articles 1 & 2
 

rvkevin

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Note: I've actually recently developed a skeptical argument (it's probably been thought of before) which isn't in this essay (I developed it after I wrote it), so if you want to hear it let me know.
All ears...

I couldn't help but notice this part: "The skeptic may object to this definition of evil, on the grounds that it has no sufficient base and that it conveniently favours a defence of the theistic God. These objections are not warranted, for the notion of evil as an absence of being is easily defendable. Naturally, anything that is an outright necessity for not only being itself, but for the flourishing of that being, is certainly a good. Not only that, but the manifestation of an evil would prove to be of great detriment to humanity, threatening its existence in its entirety."

How does creating a universe that will ultimately end up in heat death, resulting in the inevitable end of mankind, if mankind hasn't gone extinct before then, jive with the idea of being a good? Wouldn't creating a system that threatens the existence of its inhabitants in their entirety be a great detriment to humanity and thus be an evil, contradicting the premise that God is benevolent.
 

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That's a good point, I never thought of that, but here's my answer-

The furtherst you could stretch would be to call it a natural evil, but even then I'm not sure if it's jusitified.

However, I said in the paper that it evident that evil is an absence, not opposite of good, because evils are not necessary to continuation or flourishing, instead they hinder it, whereas an opposite would be necessary (like north and south magnetic poles).

A natural end to the world is not an evil because it is a necessity. This is becuase the world cannot be infinite in time, otherwise it would not be created by God, and also the fact that there can be no change in infinity, and change is reuqired for progression and flourishment. I've argued why infinty and change are not compatible in previous threads, and you may disagree with it, but to debate that would be to digress and wouldn't serve any purpose. The point is there is a defence in place.

As for my new skeptical argument, it's based off the concept of gratuitous evil. A theistic defence is that God brings good out of all evil. Gratuitous evil is evil that God brings no good from, that is seemingly pointless. The questions is whether this evil exists or not.

A theistic defence is that there only appears to be gratuitous evil by our limited perception, so to claim that gratuitious evil exists is pointless, because we could never truly know if it exists or not, because we will never have the mind and capabilites of God.

My response to this is that to human perception, it appears that alot of evil is gratuitious. Now whether it is in fact gratuitous or not, the reality is God cannot expect us to assume it is not gratuitous because to human perception it appears it to be gratuitous.

Now God would have designed both evil and our perception of evil to make us reach the conclusion the gratuitous evil exists, so the skeptic can argue its unlikely a good God exists, for if it did exist, it's actions would suggest it does not want us to think of it as good, which would be a deception, thus making it no longer a good God.
 

rvkevin

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A natural end to the world is not an evil because it is a necessity. This is becuase the world cannot be infinite in time, otherwise it would not be created by God, and also the fact that there can be no change in infinity, and change is reuqired for progression and flourishment. I've argued why infinty and change are not compatible in previous threads, and you may disagree with it, but to debate that would be to digress and wouldn't serve any purpose. The point is there is a defence in place.
"evil is that which falls away from essence and tend to non-being" There is no mention of something being necessary makes it not evil. As long as humans tend to non-being, as is the case in this universe; it is, according to the definition, evil.

Time is not an actual infinite, time is a potential infinite so the basis of that defense would be unfounded.
 

Dre89

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My point is that we only know that evils are absences and not opposites because they are not necessary.

That is what separates evil from suffering. Certain suffering is conductive towards some greater good (eg. punishment for misconduct), and suffering is a necessity. Natural evil is essentially suffering that isn't inflicted by a human that is tending away from its essence.

Moral evils are those sufferings that didn't need to be inflicted, it is the committer who is suffering, for what is being corurpted is their own essence, it is their nature that suffers.

Moral evils are only necessarily as potentiallity for human flourishment. In other words, humans need to be able to have the potential to commit evils to flourish, but they don't actually need to commit them, for committing them is counter-productive to flourishing.

The fact that moral evils are not necessary is the evidence that they are the absence, not opposite of good.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Just like a parent is all powerful to you when you are an infant?


No. As in, capable of doing anything and everything at once. I don't know too many parents, but I get the general feeling that they can't do that.

No. Chastisement is merely punishing for doing "evil". The goal being to eventually condition you to associate a certain end to a certain action. And dissuade someone from performing that action. That doesn't mean that the person can't/won't perform the action.
Yeah, but infinitely effective chastisement would have solved the problem a while ago. I think, an omnipotent God would be capable of this.

He knows the difference. We don't. So the distinguishing between the two is done for us. Also he could stop the evil from occurring, but if he did. We would never know what evil or good was. Which then eliminates the whole idea of morality.
Well, he could show us, get us to experience it, without actually causing evil.

Why not be shown how to drive a car instead of receiving first hand experience by driving the car yourself? One learns faster and more completely via first hand experience.
An example being this.
Well, God is all powerful, so he could make it work, right? The hallucination could be so powerful in its delivery of its message, that it doesn't need to be backed up by first hand experience.
 

Sieguest

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No. As in, capable of doing anything and everything at once. I don't know too many parents, but I get the general feeling that they can't do that.
True, parents can't do anything and everything at once. Which is why I noted it from the view of an infant. In the eyes of the infant. To an infant would their parents not seem all powerful since the parents dictate everything the infant does.




Yeah, but infinitely effective chastisement would have solved the problem a while ago. I think, an omnipotent God would be capable of this.
Yeah, with a one-way ticket to a burning hole in the ground.

In seriousness though, infintiely effective chastisement sounds like a never-ending punishment always reminding you of what you did wrong. Because humans forget right? One cannot omit human fault to place on God's detriment, as that is totally on the human level, the only way to keep him from forgetting would be to eternally remind the human correct? So an infinitely effective chastisement more or less would become a torture, more like a strike against his omnibenevolence and an abuse of omnipotence.



Well, he could show us, get us to experience it, without actually causing evil.
But where is God the cause of evil? Could not man be the cause of evil? If that is the case, then the presence of evil is unavoidable. So if it's going to happen anyway, why not let us learn it through experience? Like I said earlier, we learn better via first-hand experience. We can't truly appreciate the good if we're only shown evil.


Well, God is all powerful, so he could make it work, right? The hallucination could be so powerful in its delivery of its message, that it doesn't need to be backed up by first hand experience
.
Well he's also all knowing, knowing the most efficient way for us to learn.

It would have to be a hallucination so powerful that it's just like the real thing, which would essentially be just like having the real thing happen. Then that just defeats of point of existence if we can hallucinate our whole existences and still have the same thing happen.
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Yeah, with a one-way ticket to a burning hole in the ground.

In seriousness though, infintiely effective chastisement sounds like a never-ending punishment always reminding you of what you did wrong. Because humans forget right? One cannot omit human fault to place on God's detriment, as that is totally on the human level, the only way to keep him from forgetting would be to eternally remind the human correct? So an infinitely effective chastisement more or less would become a torture, more like a strike against his omnibenevolence and an abuse of omnipotence.
Ah, but being infinitely knowledgeable, God would know how to do this quickly, efficiently and effectively. He also can do it that way, because he's all-powerful. He wouldn't need to drag the thing out for eternity.

But where is God the cause of evil? Could not man be the cause of evil? If that is the case, then the presence of evil is unavoidable. So if it's going to happen anyway, why not let us learn it through experience? Like I said earlier, we learn better via first-hand experience. We can't truly appreciate the good if we're only shown evil.
Okay, I mean he could show us, with a really powerful hallucination, that lets us learn through experience, but without any of the pain or anything. (God would be able to achieve this.) As we now know that evil is utterly, well evil, he wouldn't have to let it happen.


It would have to be a hallucination so powerful that it's just like the real thing, which would essentially be just like having the real thing happen. Then that just defeats of point of existence if we can hallucinate our whole existences and still have the same thing happen.
Um, I disagree. He could make it more powerful than the real thing. However, none of us need to have any adverse side-effects, because he could stop them, while still preserving his message. He is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would be able to achieve this.
 

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Ah, but being infinitely knowledgeable, God would know how to do this quickly, efficiently and effectively. He also can do it that way, because he's all-powerful. He wouldn't need to drag the thing out for eternity.
And in being infinitely knowledgeable, he knows that the human forgets. So how would he go about keeping the lesson fresh in the person's mind without infinitely chastising them?




Okay, I mean he could show us, with a really powerful hallucination, that lets us learn through experience, but without any of the pain or anything. (God would be able to achieve this.) As we now know that evil is utterly, well evil, he wouldn't have to let it happen.
How could we completely experience something that brings pain, without feeling pain? I'm not sure I follow on how such a hallucination could happen.

Um, I disagree. He could make it more powerful than the real thing. However, none of us need to have any adverse side-effects, because he could stop them, while still preserving his message. He is all-powerful and all-knowing, so he would be able to achieve this.
Aren't the adverse side effects how we consider it evil though?
 

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And in being infinitely knowledgeable, he knows that the human forgets. So how would he go about keeping the lesson fresh in the person's mind without infinitely chastising them?
Well, he's all powerful, he could make it unforgettable.

How could we completely experience something that brings pain, without feeling pain? I'm not sure I follow on how such a hallucination could happen.
I'm not sure, but I'm sure that an all-knowing god would know how to achieve this. Maybe he could let us experience the pain for a brief amount of time, and then remove it.

Aren't the adverse side effects how we consider it evil though?
Yeah, but God could tell us there are adverse side-effects, without actually bestowing upon us through this giant hallucination. He also could argue his points infinitely effectively, so we'd be convinced not to commit evil.
 

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Well, he's all powerful, he could make it unforgettable.
Then we're jumping into creating God on earth. Which would lead to something called Humanism.




I'm not sure, but I'm sure that an all-knowing god would know how to achieve this. Maybe he could let us experience the pain for a brief amount of time, and then remove it.
Then doesn't that experience of pain defeat the whole purpose of the hallucination, which was to teach us without making us experience it?


Yeah, but God could tell us there are adverse side-effects, without actually bestowing upon us through this giant hallucination. He also could argue his points infinitely effectively, so we'd be convinced not to commit evil.
Yeah, we could be convinced that evil exists. However we still wouldn't truly know what evil is.
 

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Then we're jumping into creating God on earth. Which would lead to something called Humanism.
I don't really understand what you mean.

Then doesn't that experience of pain defeat the whole purpose of the hallucination, which was to teach us without making us experience it?
Well, the point is, it could be a short, sharp, clean affair that gets the message across, without the prolonged suffering we're seeing now. I'm sure God could figure out a method to do this better than I suggested though, because he is all-knowing.

Yeah, we could be convinced that evil exists. However we still wouldn't truly know what evil is.
So? Isn't it worth it, removing evil, for the benefit of mankind and everything? Even if we didn't know exactly what evil is.
 

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I don't really understand what you mean.
Humanism is the belief that humans are gods in themselves because of their capabilities. If God made us unforgettable in the way you suggest, then that eventually stems into why doesn't he let us live eternally and many other questions as to why God doesn't make us infallible. If God carried out all of these things to have to prove his existence then mankind would believe they are gods and wouldn't need to follow God. It'd be counterproductive to the whole reason of God existing.

An extended version of the first passage can be found here. Humanism has many different interpretations, but given the context of this discussion, it would fall under the philosophical interpretation.





Well, the point is, it could be a short, sharp, clean affair that gets the message across, without the prolonged suffering we're seeing now. I'm sure God could figure out a method to do this better than I suggested though, because he is all-knowing.
Then you're looking at a lack of efficiency from an all powerful God. Having to repeat this process for every newborn born into the world, whereas with evil being ubiquitous, the process is continual.

So? Isn't it worth it, removing evil, for the benefit of mankind and everything? Even if we didn't know exactly what evil is.
I wouldn't think so. Because then we lose so many dimensions of life. Those that stem from morality. Religious texts lose half of their meaning. Laws would have no grounding. The idea of morality probably couldn't exist and look at all the things that we do/see in the world that stem from morality or cultural beliefs of good and evil.
 
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Efficiency wouldn't matter though. Why would it matter if god does something efficiently if he has infinite resources to do so (especially if doing it in the inefficient manner leads to better results).
 

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Efficiency wouldn't matter though. Why would it matter if god does something efficiently if he has infinite resources to do so (especially if doing it in the inefficient manner leads to better results).
Because an all powerful God would be infinitely efficient. Besides it seems that the inefficient way would only yield the same results, not better, the end result is the same. In that way, the inefficient way is worse.
 

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Unless I've misread the conversation, the alternative is the threat of burning in hell for all eternity (and then making good on that threat if we don't toe the line).
I think you've misread. At this point we're not referring to punishment in the afterlife.

It's on the case of how does God show us that evil exists? Why does he not use a hallucination instead of the way we experience evil now?
 
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