Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[Sneak Frog]

Uair spiking is still there. I've been able to do it in training mode without much issue.

I seem to only be able do it within the first few hits on the Uair, otherwise the opponent remains in the air. Might just be me though.

 

[Spirst]

I seem to only be able do it within the first few hits on the Uair, otherwise the opponent remains in the air. Might just be me though.

Yeah, that's the results I'm seeing. It seems like the last hit before the knockback just keeps them in place and it's the earlier hits that do the downwards knockback. This makes it harder to do consistently as you have to do a very minimal amount of the uair.

Also, usmash lag before you can react was definitely increased. I usually input a jab to cover the usmash but I have to wait until the whole animation ends before I can input anything now.

I also feel like the windbox effect from hydro pump was nerfed. At 200% on Sheik, it's not doing a whole lot of pushback. Anyone else here can confirm?

 

[Sneak Frog]

Hydro Pump... definitely has been tampered with I feel. I can't really describe how for sure, need to look into it more.

 

[Spirst]

Yep, I think it has too. It definitely doesn't feel as strong a windbox anymore.

 

[KERO]

Playing around with it, Uair spike is there but weaker and you must get it within the first three hits. Dsmash has more knockback now for sure. It seems that Hydro Pump is both weaker and has a thinner hitbox (but the length itself does not seem to have changed). All our fears came true it seems....

Edit: High-Capacity Pump sends them nooooowhere lol. Hydro Pump overall had to have had an across the board wind-box nerf.

 

[BatShark]

Are there any bread and butter combos that are no longer possible? Usmash into Usmash at low %, or Usmash into Uairs?

 

[Spirst]

Are there any bread and butter combos that are no longer possible? Usmash into Usmash at low %, or Usmash into Uairs?

I'm curious as to whether usmash into usmash isn't reliable now as the second can't be input as quickly as before. Also, anything involving FF uair into usmash/utilt is a lot more unreliable now as well.

 

[KERO]

Usmash to Usmash was never a combo. Anyway, we lost our grab invincibility on uncharged Water Shurikens. However, I swear that our Uthrow has a ton more hitstun now. Not that it matters. Getting Uair to actually work now seems to be a lot harder. Also, provided the opponent had no intention of airdodging or jumping, Usmash to Usmash EDIT: does still work at low percents. Dthrow is still absolutely useless. However, messing with it, we may be able to use this to our advantage (this is 100% uncomfirmed, just KERO spitballing). At low percents, if we fast fall Uair after a Uthrow, we might be able to short hop and get them with it again, performing a lock of sorts. Edit: nvm, that doesn't work.

Can't believe I forgot to test this, but can anyone confirm if our grab has become larger? I feel like it has. Now, as long as you're just barely touching the outer loop, it grabs.

Edit: Shadow Sneak's ending lag is now shorter. Shadow Dash's remains the same.

Edit: Bouncing off ledges with Hydro Pump is still in, yaaaaaaay....

Yet another edit: The Hydro Pump nerf may be a blessing in disguise against some characters. See, back when it had that off the wall windbox, it would often push recovering opponents straight up, even if they were recovering completely straight. Now, it no longer does this, but it acts as a wall impeding recoveries because it's too weak to send characters that have horizontal recoveries upward, meaning it essentially nullifies many recoveries without giving them any altitude. Of course, characters like Rosalina that have strong vertical components to their recovery are made easy targets for Usmash. Those that have weak recoveries overall, regardless of their vertical/horizontal components, just get stalled in the air and then die.

 

[MartinAW4]

Usmash to Usmash was never a combo. Anyway, we lost our grab invincibility on uncharged Water Shurikens. However, I swear that our Uthrow has a ton more hitstun now. Not that it matters. Getting Uair to actually work now seems to be a lot harder. Also, provided the opponent had no intention of airdodging or jumping, Usmash to Usmash EDIT: does still work at low percents. Dthrow is still absolutely useless. However, messing with it, we may be able to use this to our advantage (this is 100% uncomfirmed, just KERO spitballing). At low percents, if we fast fall Uair after a Uthrow, we might be able to short hop and get them with it again, performing a lock of sorts. Edit: nvm, that doesn't work.

Can't believe I forgot to test this, but can anyone confirm if our grab has become larger? I feel like it has. Now, as long as you're just barely touching the outer loop, it grabs.

Edit: Shadow Sneak's ending lag is now shorter. Shadow Dash's remains the same.

Edit: Bouncing off ledges with Hydro Pump is still in, yaaaaaaay....

Yet another edit: The Hydro Pump nerf may be a blessing in disguise against some characters. See, back when it had that off the wall windbox, it would often push recovering opponents straight up, even if they were recovering completely straight. Now, it no longer does this, but it acts as a wall impeding recoveries because it's too weak to send characters that have horizontal recoveries upward, meaning it essentially nullifies many recoveries without giving them any altitude. Of course, characters like Rosalina that have strong vertical components to their recovery are made easy targets for Usmash. Those that have weak recoveries overall, regardless of their vertical/horizontal components, just get stalled in the air and then die.

Actually Usmash -> Usmash was a true combo against King Dedede and possibly other large heavy weights at 20-28%. And even though it didn`t truly combo against lighter characters, it was so fast that they barely had any time to escape. I`ve never seen even lv.9 bots escape from it despite them normally spamming air dodge as soon as possible.

The Uair spike nerf to just first 3 hits unfortunately prevents most Uair spike -> Utilt combos because they required exactly 5 hits to work, however with perfect timing, off stage Uair spikes should still be possible but only on your way down.
And even though it`s unusable against anyone without a broken R button, the Uair spike -> ground bounce -> Uair spike infinite combo should still work because it only requires a single Uair hit to work.

Could you test how much Dsmash knockback has been improved? Before, sweetspot uncharged Dsmash dealt 11% and killed Mario from the very edge of FD at 117% and fully charged sweetspot Dsmash dealt 15% and killed at 80%.

More hitstun on Uthrow would be great. Could you test if Uthrow -> Nair and Uthrow -> Fair are true combos (they should be easiest to perform at around 60%)? Before the only moves that truly comboed into Uthrow were Uair and Bair.

Could you post a video with the grab range? I still haven`t updated so I could compare whether it was changed.

Good to hear about lower SS ending lag. It might have more uses now other than punishing opponents trying to edgeguard you when returning to the stage. Can you test whether running SS still works?

And this is what I have been secretly hoping for from the moment I saw the low HP push back in the video. If the opponents really don`t get pushed up as much and instead only get stopped in place it would make gimping off stage much easier. Though this also means that we won`t be able to KO with HP off the top as easily either, but that is a trade I`d gladly take if it meant easier off stage gimps.

So overall I`m definitely most disappointed about the Usmash nerf, especially if Usmash -> Uair doesn`t combo anymore. But the Uair and Hydro Pump nerfs aren`t as bad as I expected and if SS, Uthrow and Dsmash were really buffed, then it isn`t so bad after all. But I will miss having an Usmash that was safer on shield than Tilts and could combo into itself.

Edit: Could you also test whether you can still jab out of multi-hit moves like other jabs?

 

[FullMoon]

I'm pretty sure Up-Smash -> Up-Air doesn't work anymore, it just takes too long for Greninja to jump and get to the opponent before they start moving out of the way.

This Up-Smash nerf is going to take a really long time getting used to.

 

[Lavani]

Could you test how much Dsmash knockback has been improved? Before, sweetspot uncharged Dsmash dealt 11% and killed Mario from the very edge of FD at 117% and fully charged sweetspot Dsmash dealt 15% and killed at 80%.

Well this still matches up to how it is in 1.0.4 so evidently it wasn't buffed.

Increased uthrow hitstun is probably actually increased knockback, I need Sheik at 45% to hit her with nair (no, it doesn't combo).

Grab range seems the same to me idk, here's the max range he can grab Sheik from. She still needs to be slightly within the outer ring.

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

Yo guys, I'm screwing around with the sh and full hop shuriken, trying to find a way around the landing lag that we have now,
and I noticed that SOMETIMES greninja does his slight aerial hop with the shuriken which cancels the lag upon landing just like pre 1.04. I have no idea how to make it happen on purpose, but it'd be great if someone knows!
(after some tests, it seems to happen more often if I input a direction like backwards of forward once the shuriken is prepared).
Edit: btw the running shadow sneak has not been removed. Still pretty damn hard to time though.

 

[MartinAW4]

Well this still matches up to how it is in 1.0.4 so evidently it wasn't buffed.

Increased uthrow hitstun is probably actually increased knockback, I need Sheik at 45% to hit her with nair (no, it doesn't combo).

Grab range seems the same to me idk, here's the max range he can grab Sheik from. She still needs to be slightly within the outer ring.

The knockback on Uthrow most likely isn`t increased because the 60% Uthrow -> Nair was against King Dedede. Against Sheik, 45% seems about right. But just to make sure, Sheik starts getting the lightning effect after an Uthrow at 164% and always dies at 165% in the old version.

And yeah, the grab range seems about the same as well. So much for the buffs. Does at least SS really have less ending lag?

@ Babar-Thorbald
Don`t tell me they nerfed Water Shuriken as well. What does Sakurai have against Greninja? He nerfed arguably our 4 best moves while someone like Rosalina only gets like 4 extra seconds on her Luma respawn time.

 

[Icyie]

Hydro pump's pushback has definitely been nerfed. This is pretty sad.

 

[Lavani]

The knockback on Uthrow most likely isn`t increased because the 60% Uthrow -> Nair was against King Dedede. Against Sheik, 45% seems about right. But just to make sure, Sheik starts getting the lightning effect after an Uthrow at 164% and always dies at 165% in the old version.

And yeah, the grab range seems about the same as well. So much for the buffs. Does at least SS really have less ending lag?

Oh, whoops. Yeah, it still KOs at the same percents.

Uh...I actually did think SS's end lag was lowered at first, but after comparing to KERO's 1.0.3 video it looks the same. Welp.

 

[CoNgL3]

UPSmash has 4/5 added frames of ending lag.
Uncharged water shuriken also has 4/5 added frames of ending lag.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Hydro pump's pushback has definitely been nerfed. This is pretty sad.

I just tested hyrdo pumps push back. Its still the same and there seems to be no nerfs on upsmash or uncharged shuriken.

 

[momochuu]

I just tested hyrdo pumps push back. Its still the same and there seems to be no nerfs on upsmash or uncharged shuriken.

lol.

try to do up smash to up air and tell me what happens.

 

[Nabbitnator]

lol.

try to do up smash to up air and tell me what happens.

I can do it but not consistently but one thing i do notice is upsmash not hitting consistently anymore and i almost always got both hits just doing it from the ground.

 

[CoNgL3]

Nabbitnator there's no helping you.

I've got 2 DS's, both the changes I mentioned are 100%.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Nabbitnator there's no helping you.

I've got 2 DS's, both the changes I mentioned are 100%.

I'm still able to use hydro pump in the same way. I dont see a change for that.

edit: Ok i went back to test it and my apologies for the upsmash. I didnt do it directly after so now i see.

 

[MartinAW4]

Oh, whoops. Yeah, it still KOs at the same percents.

Uh...I actually did think SS's end lag was lowered at first, but after comparing to KERO's 1.0.3 video it looks the same. Welp.

Oh great, so nothing but nerfs for Greninja it seems.
Usmash now lost all of its combo potential if not even Uair can combo into it and as if nerfing our Usmash, Hydro Pump and Uair wasn`t enough, we also get more landing lag on our uncharged Water Shurikens.

I checked the boards of other top characters to see how they changed:
Rosalina:
- Luma respawn time is 3.8 seconds longer
- Nair knockback and damage nerf from 10% to 7% sweetspot
- fully charged Luma Shot range seems to be a bit shorter

Sheik:
- Bouncing Fish and Uair knockback nerf
- Fair damage nerf to 5.5%
- longer needle cooldown

Sonic:
+ Dsmash and Utilt have less cooldown
+/- Uair kills more consistently but has more landing lag
+/- Dash Attack deals 2% more damage but has more cooldown

Nothing on Diddy, Lucario, Yoshi and ZSS so far. So I`d say Greninja got the worst nerfs followed by Sheik, Rosalina and Sonic actually got buffed overall. I guess this means that Sakurai considered Greninja the strongest character if he got the most nerfs without any buffs to compensate.

 

[Babar-Thorbald]

UPSmash has 4/5 added frames of ending lag.
Uncharged water shuriken also has 4/5 added frames of ending lag.

It's not only about having more landing lag. I'm pretty sure that pre 1.04, if you threw a shuriken while in the air, you had no landing lag. It's not the case anymore EXCEPT in the case I talked about, whenever greninja does his small hop while throwing the shuriken (no idea how to do it reliably, it just "happens").

Also about the buffs/nerfs, I seem to notice less lag after shadow sneak, is it just an impression? It seems way more reliable as an approach thanks to that.


Finally @ MartinAW4 why do you say rosalina has been buffed overall? From what you wrote I can only see nerfs.

 

[Marilink]

Shadow Sneak lag felt the same to me, but I don't have frame data or anything.

Is anyone else finding it harder to do a Running Usmash?

 

[MartinAW4]

Finally @ MartinAW4 why do you say rosalina has been buffed overall? From what you wrote I can only see nerfs.

I should have worded that better. What I meant was that Greninja got the worst nerfs followed by Sheik, then Rosalina. However Sonic actually got buffed overall.
So yeah, Rosalina got nerfed, not buffed, but she got fewer nerfs than expected. For example Luma can still attack while Rosalina is grabbed, contrary to what the rumors said.

@ Marilink
I`ve actually seen it mentioned in the Sheik thread that Hyphen Usmash (dash into Usmash) is much harder to perform, but jump cancelled Usmash still works the same. This along with the Uair spike nerf actually makes me consider turning tap jump on again.

 

[Powda]

@ Babar-Thorbald
Don`t tell me they nerfed Water Shuriken as well. What does Sakurai have against Greninja? He nerfed arguably our 4 best moves while someone like Rosalina only gets like 4 extra seconds on her Luma respawn time.

Uhhh, maybe cause the top 5 characters **** the rest and he wants to balance the game?

 

[Marilink]

This along with the Uair spike nerf actually makes me consider turning tap jump on again.

I was thinking the same thing. Since Uair spike is harder to pull of, and also weakened, I'll probably turn tap jump back on to get my OOS Usmashes and Running Usmashes back.

That will make my Uair > Uair Captain Falcon combos a little more difficult, but I'm OK with that.

 

[KERO]

I still can't help but feel that Shadow Sneak is faster now, but I'll take your guys' word for it. Also, seems Dsmash was stronger than I initially ever gave it credit for, but it's still clearly the worst of his Smashes.

If someone could give us a write-up of move start-up/end lag using the videos I posted as a reference point, that would be great. I'd do it, but I'm apparently pretty bad at comparing moves =P

 

[MartinAW4]

Uhhh, maybe cause the top 5 characters **** the rest and he wants to balance the game?

I guess you`re right. I just wish Sakurai found a better way to balance the game without taking away the most fun to use moves of the top characters. I would have much preferred a damage reduction on the Usmash, Uair, WS and Shadow Sneak instead of adding more lag and removing spike/landing lag cancelling properties.
If he continues to take away or nerf the best moves with the most creative combo potential we will be left with a very boring roster once the game is finally "balanced" in this way.

 

[Coffee™]

Could you test how much Dsmash knockback has been improved? Before, sweetspot uncharged Dsmash dealt 11% and killed Mario from the very edge of FD at 117% and fully charged sweetspot Dsmash dealt 15% and killed at 80%.

I'm getting kills on Mario with uncharged sweetspot Dsmash at 101% (deals 13%, sourspot deals 11%) by the edge and 67% with fully charged sweetspot Dsmash (deals 18%, sourspot deals 15%).

I still can't help but feel that Shadow Sneak is faster now, but I'll take your guys' word for it. Also, seems Dsmash was stronger than I initially ever gave it credit for, but it's still clearly the worst of his Smashes.

Shadow Sneak has considerably less ending lag off stage (may be a decent edgeguarding tool now). It does "feel" somewhat faster on stage as well but it's nothing really that notable. Also, Dsmash isn't bad by any means. Solid damage, decent range and it's angle of knockback is quite silly.

 

[KERO]

Dsmash was never really a bad move; it's just the Usmash and Fsmash were so much better imo.

Also, I'm getting conflicting reports regarding whether Water Shuriken has more end lag or not. I need to finish up some homework, so I can't look at it myself at the moment.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Placebo effect is strong. If there is endlag on WS right now, it's barely even noticeable.

 

[MartinAW4]

I'm getting kills on Mario with uncharged sweetspot Dsmash at 101% (deals 13%, sourspot deals 11%) by the edge and 67% with fully charged sweetspot Dsmash (deals 18%, sourspot deals 15%).



Shadow Sneak has considerably less ending lag off stage (may be a decent edgeguarding tool now). It does "feel" somewhat faster on stage as well but it's nothing really that notable. Also, Dsmash isn't bad by any means. Solid damage, decent range and it's angle of knockback is quite silly.

Great! At least some positive news. So it seems that the Dsmash sourspot now deals the same damage and knockback as the previous sweetspot while the new sweetspot is about 20% stronger and is actually slightly stronger than a sourspot Usmash.
And I agree, the knockback angle on Dsmash is great. I preferred to use it over Usmash while edgeguarding even before its buff because it sent opponents at a slightly downwards angle that made it more difficult for them to recover.

The lower ending lag on SS in the air is welcome as well, but it probably won`t change much about its uses, just make it slightly less punishable.
Edit:
@ Marilink
Oh yeah, that is a great point. Thanks to the lower end lag of aerial SS, you will be able to mess up more times while recovering and still make it back to the stage.
Could someone test how many times you can use SS from a full jump off stage and still make it back? In 1.0.3 you could only SS twice and barely make it back.

 

[Marilink]

^^Agreed, I felt no difference on WS.

Coffee's Dsmash numbers sure do seem like a buff, though. Can anyone else verify?

Oh, I never tested Shadow Sneak offstage. I'll have to try that out. They probably got rid of its lag because people kept accidentally Side-B'ing when trying to Up-b.

 

[Lavani]

Coffee's right on dsmash, I accidentally hit the sourspot, saw old sweetspot numbers, and assumed it was the same. My bad.

Never checked aerial sneak, but that wasn't something I ever used without fastfalling to begin with so I don't have any real point of reference.

Also agreeing with @ #HBC | Laundry , WS doesn't feel laggier to me.

 

[KERO]

Alright, so using a glitch that allows you to move in 1/8 speed in Training Mode, I can confirm Greninja lost his enticing DACUS. Also, good to hear I actually was right regarding Dsmash! At least now we mindgame people expecting a Usmash and airdodging into the ground and use Dsmash instead.

 

[MartinAW4]

Alright, so using a glitch that allows you to move in 1/8 speed in Training Mode, I can confirm Greninja lost his enticing DACUS. Also, good to hear I actually was right regarding Dsmash! At least now we mindgame people expecting a Usmash and airdodging into the ground and use Dsmash instead.

How do you perform the 1/8 speed in Training mode glitch?

 

[FullMoon]

What about Substitute? Did anything about it change or is it still just a terrible counter?

And I've found out that to Up Smash while dashing more easily, you just need to turn tap jump on, so that's a relief at least.

 

[KERO]

How do you perform the 1/8 speed in Training mode glitch?

Get slowed down by a timer (doesn't matter how), then go from 1x speed to 1/4x (hold L) speed without slowing down the game speed in any other way (basically, go one left from 1x). Hold L briefly and let it go. Then go to 1/4x, skipping over 1/2x (hold L) speed. Do not activate the 1/2x (hold L) speed. Once you get to 1/4x, the speed should be 1/8x. Oddly enough, this was not patched out.

 

[Spirst]

Whoa whoa, what? Greninja doesn't have a DACUS anymore?