Social The Pond - Greninja General Discussion

[FullMoon]

Do invencibility mean windbox won't affect them? Because Shoryuken inputed has invencibility all the way through the move, so Hydro Pump might not be able to do much to his recovery. Hitting him away with B-Air is certainly a guaranteed stock though.

 

[Marilink]

Ftilt buff sounds godlike. Cannot wait to experiment with that.

 

[Deleted member]

Do invencibility mean windbox won't affect them? Because Shoryuken inputed has invencibility all the way through the move, so Hydro Pump might not be able to do much to his recovery. Hitting him away with B-Air is certainly a guaranteed stock though.

It has invincibility all the way through? Damn, Sakurai going all out with the Street Fighter easter eggs. Perhaps a bit too much?

But Ryu seems like a monster in this game. A solid projectile that can also jab lock, amazing frame data, damage for days (seriously his Fair does 15%, but Falcon's Uair got nerfed from 13 to 11), and a powerful approach/landing game using FADC/crossup Fair with the threat of an Ftilt shield break. He seems to have great KO options as well, and combos into Shoryuken using the ultra safe light attacks are going to be threats. His only problem seems to be recovering, but it goes a far distance. At least we can hit him fairly well out of Tatsu with Hydro Pump, Fair (maybe), and Dair spikes are viable if he has to come from far away. FADC's armor and invincible Shoryuken are safe aside from a deep Hydro Pump to catch him out of FADC. In this matchup we have to run away from him as much as possible in my experience, since Greninja's frame data isn't exactly comparable to Ryu's. Fair, Shurikens, and Ftilt will be good tools. If only Shurikens had less lag so our zoning game on him would be stronger.

 

[momochuu]

ryu's recovery is actually not even bad unless he's recovering from super deep below the stage. manual tatsu alone damn near gets you back on stage without even using your second jump.

 

[FullMoon]

Yeah Ryu's recovery is a lot better than it sounds. Though I did hear Tatsu has a bit of endlag in the air that we could exploit.

I think only Roy is easily gimped by us.

 

[bc1910]

Hydro Pump really screws wtih Ryu because of his weird air speed, and his aerials lend themselves to offense more than defensive recovery usage. For example if he throws out an aerial near the ledge, he'll generally go below it, which makes him vulnerable to a Bair stage spike or a simple Hydro Pump gimp.

Having tested Hydro Pump it seems to affect Shoryuken regardless of the invincibility frames. There may be portions of the attack that are totally invincible to HP but I couldn't find any, I do admit my testing might be wrong though because this scenario is so hard to test for one person with two controllers as opposed to two human players. Still, Shoryuken certainly seems to be affected by Hydro Pump at the apex of the uppercut.

Lucas' recovery is harder to gimp than I thought but he does die if we hit him with HP before the thunder hits him. He generally doesn't want to be using PKT2 against us, just like Ness. Even if we hit the actual cannonball attack, we can smack Lucas with a Smash before he arrives back on stage, it just won't kiil until later.

Roy's recovery is bad in general and cannot get through HP.

Overall I think we can gimp all of the DLC recoveries better than most, it just comes down to Hydro Pump screwing with stuff despite being a no-risk option for us. Like, a lot of characters may have more success just smacking Lucas with a Bair (ourselves included, actually) rather than trying to hit him with Hydro Pump, but they risk getting smacked with PKT2 in the process. It's all about risk/reward and our edgeguarding risk/reward ratio is incredibly good.

 

[FullMoon]

Lucas is not easy to gimp, no doubt.

PK Fire can boost him toward the stage without wasting his double jump. His double jump itself is massive and he has a tether. Greninja really has to work to force him to use PK Thunder offstage, even more than with Ness.

He can probably gimp him better than most, yeah, but that's not saying much.

 

[KERO]

Hey, I hate to potentially ruin the "no nerfs" train, but I found something about ten minutes ago that's kind of interesting.

Ftilt now has a sweet and sourspot. The sourspot is Greninja's leg and has less knockback than the move originally had. The sweetspot has the same (potentially more because of slight percent increase) knockback the move had. Both still do the same damage. Now, Ftilt was never really known for KOing, so this could essentially still be a buff for Greninja (allows for more follow-ups at lower percents), but just thought I'd point it out. I'm gonna try and get a video uploaded regarding this.

Edit: I... kinda made a video. I don't have access to a capture card, so it's potato quality (honestly, worse than even that). Anyway, here's the video.

 

[bc1910]

I don't think that's too big a deal, as long as it does the same damage throughout the move. I wouldn't call it a nerf, just a tweak or new property.

 

[Seith]

Also I don't know if this has been mentioned but we can crouch under Ryu's Tatsu and dtilt if done quickly enough.

Anyone know good uses of ftilt? While practicing I'm sometimes randomly throwing it out to see if I can get use out of it.

 

[Deleted member]

Also I don't know if this has been mentioned but we can crouch under Ryu's Tatsu and dtilt if done quickly enough.

Anyone know good uses of ftilt? While practicing I'm sometimes randomly throwing it out to see if I can get use out of it.

It has ~10 frames less cooldown now, so a spaced Ftilt is now safe on shield. Use it to poke from long range.

 

[FullMoon]

Pivot F-Tilt is love oh my god.

Does anybody know if there's any guaranteed follow ups we can get from F-Tilt now?

The only thing I can imagine is F-Tilt > Dash Attack > F-Air if the opponent misses their tech.

 

[Lavani]

Didn't spend more than a minute looking for combos off it but I'm pretty sure the knockback is too significant at percents that would provide enough hitstun for a true combo followup.

Dash attack stuff on a missed tech is probably the best you'll get (or maybe it's possible to set up a dair lock before they can get up/roll?)

 

[FullMoon]

I've gotten Splatoon guys.

I've joined the squids.

 

[Coffee™]

Pivot F-Tilt is love oh my god.

Does anybody know if there's any guaranteed follow ups we can get from F-Tilt now?

The only thing I can imagine is F-Tilt > Dash Attack > F-Air if the opponent misses their tech.

Shadow Sneak if they miss the tech is a thing at kill percents.

I've gotten Splatoon guys.

I've joined the squids.

We welcome you to the Inkside. xD

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Pivot F-Tilt is love oh my god.

Does anybody know if there's any guaranteed follow ups we can get from F-Tilt now?

The only thing I can imagine is F-Tilt > Dash Attack > F-Air if the opponent misses their tech.

Unrelated, but your new profile pic is SIIICK.

 

[FullMoon]

Unrelated, but your new profile pic is SIIICK.

Thank tumblr

 

[Seith]

It has ~10 frames less cooldown now, so a spaced Ftilt is now safe on shield. Use it to poke from long range.

Thank you :3
It seems like even though its a buff its sadly a very situational buff >3>''

 

[bc1910]

It's not situational at all. We've been given a ranged poking tool that can be thrown out in a ton of situations because it's so safe, even on block. The only real issue with it is that it doesn't yield high guaranteed reward on hit (though 7.3% isn't bad) but I'm working on follow-ups. At the percents where it sends opponents skidding along the ground or sets them up for a guaranteed tech chase it's pretty good.

 

[FullMoon]

Nice to see people use Miiverse for what it's supposed to be.

That Quagsire is just precious.

 

[Seith]

It's not situational at all. We've been given a ranged poking tool that can be thrown out in a ton of situations because it's so safe, even on block. The only real issue with it is that it doesn't yield high guaranteed reward on hit (though 7.3% isn't bad) but I'm working on follow-ups. At the percents where it sends opponents skidding along the ground or sets them up for a guaranteed tech chase it's pretty good.

I guess I'll just lab it with my brother until I find out suitable followups then

 

[Deleted member]

I've been messing with grounded wavebounce shurikens lately (I set my Z button to Special to make it easier on my hands), and its a surprisingly effective punish if the opponent expects a dash grab. You just run at them and instantly pull back a surprisingly long distance while charging a shuriken. It essentially auto punishes rolls/spotdodge options that the opponent would choose if they are conditioned into expecting a grab. Its not that practical in the sense that if you mess up the input then you get Shadow Sneak or Dash Attack, which are heavily punishable.

To do a grounded wave bounce, press the special button at the same time as pulling the C-Stick in the opposite direction you are running. I also just realized how different my controls are from default, with C-Stick = Attack, X = Grab, Z = Special, L = Jump, and all of the optional settings like Tap Jump and Rumble turned off.

It's not situational at all. We've been given a ranged poking tool that can be thrown out in a ton of situations because it's so safe, even on block. The only real issue with it is that it doesn't yield high guaranteed reward on hit (though 7.3% isn't bad) but I'm working on follow-ups. At the percents where it sends opponents skidding along the ground or sets them up for a guaranteed tech chase it's pretty good.

I haven't comboed with it yet, but I'll try to find some followups as well. If I can't find any then I'll just settle for tech chase punishes.

 

[Lavani]

To do a grounded wave bounce (new to the patch)

It's not new, grounded wavebounces have been known about since December.

 

[Deleted member]

It's not new, grounded wavebounces have been known about since December.

Really? I only heard about it after the patch. Thanks for informing me; I edited my post.

 

[Kace Mono]

I really need to pay more attention, I hadn't seen a grounded wave bounce before O.o Nice to have another idea for switching up the grabs.e

 

[Kevandre]

One more for Greninja!

 

[FullMoon]

One more for Greninja!

That's so cool! I would totally but a t-shirt with that on if I had the means to.

 

[Deleted member]

One more for Greninja!

Thank you for this beautiful image. I've been looking for a new avatar for a while now, and this fits perfectly!

 

[Kevandre]

That's so cool! I would totally but a t-shirt with that on if I had the means to.

No problem man. I'm just glad you like it. And hey, maybe one day! They actually turn out awesome on shirts. If you ever do pick one up, be sure to send me a picture, I like to see how they look.

Thank you for this beautiful image. I've been looking for a new avatar for a while now, and this fits perfectly!

I'm glad you enjoy it! I always love seeing it when Smashboards members use them as their avatars.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Yo Grens. ◥θ┴θ◤
Can any of you do that grounded wavebounce trick consistently?

From what I know you have to be frame perfect, and tbh it's pretty tough when c-stick registers it's input half way through the motion. I'm having trouble getting it. I've been using my Greninja in tournament lately, and taking weeklies, but I always fall back on Lucario by the end in major tournaments if I wanna place.

Realistically though, I wanna take Greninja to the level i'm at with Lucario so he becomes a TRUE viable main along side him. I like this Frog too much man. :TTT

 

[FullMoon]

Yo Grens. ◥θ┴θ◤
Can any of you do that grounded wavebounce trick consistently?

From what I know you have to be frame perfect, and tbh it's pretty tough when c-stick registers it's input half way through the motion. I'm having trouble getting it. I've been using my Greninja in tournament lately, and taking weeklies, but I always fall back on Lucario by the end in major tournaments if I wanna place.

Realistically though, I wanna take Greninja to the level i'm at with Lucario so he becomes a TRUE viable main along side him. I like this Frog too much man. :TTT

Is the grounded wavebounce even all that useful?

I don't even think wavebouncing with Greninja is that great since the end lag on the shurikens don't really let him do much out of it.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Is the grounded wavebounce even all that useful?

I don't even think wavebouncing with Greninja is that great since the end lag on the shurikens don't really let him do much out of it.

In the long run, probably not, but I like to know all the techs to play around with them. Tricky movement is my crutch and I like to explore every option I have just in case, but realistically I guess it doesn't matter all that much. Tbh it's kinda overwhelming how much weird stuff greninja has to him, but not many tricks seem essential. I'm kinda at a loss at what to shoot for when it comes to what dirty tricks to add to my arsenal. Still trying to get down his fast fall u-air loops too tbh.


Ahh can I ask another question then?
Is there any core tricks/set ups that a Greninja should have in his arsenal?

 

[Deleted member]

Yo Grens. ◥θ┴θ◤
Can any of you do that grounded wavebounce trick consistently?

From what I know you have to be frame perfect, and tbh it's pretty tough when c-stick registers it's input half way through the motion. I'm having trouble getting it. I've been using my Greninja in tournament lately, and taking weeklies, but I always fall back on Lucario by the end in major tournaments if I wanna place.

Realistically though, I wanna take Greninja to the level i'm at with Lucario so he becomes a TRUE viable main along side him. I like this Frog too much man. :TTT

I can do it, albeit not consistently. The best way I get it to work is to get the aerial timing first and then try the grounded version. Wavebounce Shurikens are really only good for mixups/niche retreats and aren't something that I think of using often, but I'd imagine any movement tech with Aura Sphere is amazing.

Ahh can I ask another question then?
Is there any core tricks/set ups that a Greninja should have in his arsenal?

Fast fall Uair to a lot (I do it by pressing up on my C-Stick and almost simultaneously holding down on the analog), Shadow Sneaking out of hitstun in some situations, Nair/Dtilt -> Usmash/Fair KO confirms, spaced retreating SH Fair on shield, Nair footstool shenanigans, etc. For combos in general, check out this thread. And of course, you should be playing Greninja more defensively/bait and punish-esque since that is what he excels out. If you ever approach, its usually with any kind of read or to see their reaction to a spaced/safe Ftilt or Fair on shield. I'm not the best Greninja out there, so I'm sure that there is more that I could be saying.

I'm curious as to why you want to learn Greninja. Do you like him as a character, does he make a good secondary for Lucario, or do you like his move set?

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

Wait, what does a grounded wavebounce shuriken look like?

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, what does a grounded wavebounce shuriken look like?

Greninja pulls back a fair distance out of a dash and throws/charges a Shuriken.

 

[31IV]

So I thought I would make my first post here, since you know, I like this character.
Hi fellow frogs.
Looking forward to learning more stuff about Greninja, and maybe playing some of you.

One more for Greninja!

Looks sick. Guess I have a new wallpaper :]

 

[Kace Mono]

Any good videos on grounded wave bouncing? I'm trying to help a friend learn it and we can't find. Decent video. Does it have to be absolutely frame perfect? I can't seem to get the motion down no matter how much I tweak it... It wasn't patched out or anything was it?

 

[SmashRacer]

Any good videos on grounded wave bouncing? I'm trying to help a friend learn it and we can't find. Decent video. Does it have to be absolutely frame perfect? I can't seem to get the motion down no matter how much I tweak it... It wasn't patched out or anything was it?

I think this might help

 

[Kace Mono]

I think this might help

Iv seen this, he doesn't explain grounded wave bounce.

http://youtu.be/c-Sbeua8i-k

This is what I'm trying to do but I'm finding it incredibly hard. His explanation leaves a lot out.

 

[Space thing]

Iv seen this, he doesn't explain grounded wave bounce.

http://youtu.be/c-Sbeua8i-k

This is what I'm trying to do but I'm finding it incredibly hard. His explanation leaves a lot out.

Set c-stick to attack if you haven't already (this may or may not be necessary, but it does seem to makes things much easier; I can't do it with smash stick at all, but I can with attack stick frequently enough). You also can't do it out of an initial dash (though, Greninja's dash ends really quickly, so this likely isn't going to be a problem with him unless you're trying to a grounded wavebounce right after pressing forward). And yea, it might need to be be frame perfect. You probably want to move the c-stick sightly before pressing the special button because the c-stick doesn't register things until it's been moved a certain distance. If you're using the triggers for specials then I don't know the timing.

And in case it isn't clear already, the motions are, hold forward -> c-stick in the opposite direction + Special button. If you pressed the c-stick too early, you get a dash attack, too late and you get a side special.