The Pokedex Guide to Pokemon Trainer+

[DanGR]

My first impression of Brawl+

I played it for the first time yesterday. I used Squirtle (as I promised myself) for a couple hours, and I have to say... he's tooooo good for this game. Just ridiculous.

Shellshift->bair->uptilt->uptilt->upair->upair/fair/bair is crazy.

And he's so fast... O_o

I have to say though, I don't like how all the characters just got smaller. The stage/character size ratio in regular Brawl is fine.

 

[Sudai]

You guys now stuff, will Retro Gamings idea on the forced switch for PT be in or is it already in the plussery set? The one where you have to swtich, but can switch either way is the one I'm talking about.

.........................................what?

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

@Sudai: The proposed ability to switch to the previous pokemon by holding shield or something.

@Rkey: Unfortunately, most coders are either on hiatus(Phantom Wings) or unavailable(spunit), so that specific code doesn't exist yet. Not even sure if it's possible yet either

 

[Rkey]

.........................................what?

>_>

@Rkey: Unfortunately, most coders are either on hiatus(Phantom Wings) or unavailable(spunit), so that specific code doesn't exist yet. Not even sure if it's possible yet either

Yes, but I'm asking whether all the PT players are for this or not. I'm sorry I can't find the thread, but those who replied all seemed very positive. When and if we get the code, will we want it? That's my question.

 

[Veril]

Does it actually matter? Why not just let PT stay as is until its clear that he's way too good? I strongly doubt that's the case. There's no need to put fatigue back in or limit switching.

Anyway, I think its a good time to discuss Jiggs vs. Squirtle... Guru?

 

[Rkey]

Does it actually matter? Why not just let PT stay as is until its clear that he's way too good? I strongly doubt that's the case. There's no need to put fatigue back in or limit switching.

Anyway, I think its a good time to discuss Jiggs vs. Squirtle... Guru?

I REALLY need to find RetroGaming's post or get him over here, because what he said was that in the games, that's how PT works. If someone faints, you can't bring in the same Pokémon again. But, allowing to switch each way will make you able of playing just two of the Pokémon if you feel like it. This would make PT feel more like PT, which would be really nice.

This is an idea that includes the new CSS, where you can, instead of PT, pick the individual Pokémon if you want to play only one of them.

 

[GuruKid]

Please limit discussion to PT's current status; talk about potential changes elsewhere. Rkey, consider reviving that thread RetroGaming started; I'd be more than happy to discuss it further. Just... not here.

Jiggs vs Squirtle? I still need more experience with that matchup, actually, to really go into any depth. I will say though that the matches are somewhat like a ditto; both pogeys attempting to string utilts and aerials onto the other for an early KO. In that specific area, I believe Squirtle does better. I'd need more testing to confirm it though.

*looks at Veril and Glick*

 

[JCaesar]

They both have trouble comboing each other because they're small and light and fast, and while Squirtle kills Jiggs earlier, Jiggs can gimp him if you aren't careful.

I just want to let you guys know, Sudai and I are working on a Squirtle+ guide, and we're going to make a new thread just for Squirtle+ when we're done. The independent pokemon really deserve their own threads. They are all very different characters.

 

[GuruKid]

Good stuff, Jcaesar; I also believe the individual pokes should have their own threads.

 

[Veril]

Resting squirtle is a bad idea. Turns out its not very effective due to the fire effect. Squirtle's also got the ability to **** if he lands an up-tilt.

Ugh... I took such a stupid amount of damage from those combos.

"Looks at Gurukid"

We'll play again sometime. I want to host a something something...

Squirtle has the advantage, but not a large one since weak to strong f-air is so good here.

 

[Rkey]

Please limit discussion to PT's current status; talk about potential changes elsewhere. Rkey, consider reviving that thread RetroGaming started; I'd be more than happy to discuss it further. Just... not here.

Ok, great, more people are interested ^_^

I'm wondering stuff about BS: Before it always locked the opponent if you were close to them. Now, most of the time, the KB of the startup of BS send the enemy to far. Is this a result of codes being in play and is there anyway we can fix it? Or is it just good that BS is not as broken as it used to be and requires more precistion to land?

 

[Sudai]

Just combo into BS so you don't need the first hit and it's a non-issue. It was possible to SDI the first hit of BS in vBrawl so the rest didn't hit anyway. Now it's just like everyone auto-SDIs it. It mattered in vBrawl cause we couldn't combo into it, but with combos and what not..it's too good of a combo finisher.

 

[Veril]

no helpless state after Ivy's up-b... loolwut

I'm so sad I don't have the wii on me. That change is definitely gonna make me pick up Ivysaur since I think he's awesome beyond that terrible flaw.

 

[Rkey]

Ivy's up b on the ground is pretty underestimated. At a tournament once in friendlies (vBrawl), a bowser was jumping back to the stage. I did my up-b oos, sweetspotted and ko:ed. He was like "didn't see that one coming", it's a quick move with range and knockback, only hard to sweetspot.

Edit: well, maybe not that quick, but taken by surprise you most likely wont dodge it


And yeah, good, I also like how BS isn't extremely broken anymore, now it's just a very good move ^_^ and btw, I think fox and other FF:ers is actually not gaining height while in the seeds, correct?

 

[Retro Gaming]

Charizard's Uair works beautifully now. If Utilt's cool-down was reduced by the slightest bit I could see Charizard's game revolving heavily around both moves.

I seem to recall that one of the changes was to remove Fair's phantom hits? For some reason I still tend to get phantom hits every once in a while, which is kind of annoying.

Shield stun kind of stifles Charizard's OOS grab game that I'm accustomed to, which really throws me off, sometimes. On the other hand, when Charizard does get that grab it leads into quite a few more directly after. Fthrow/Bthrow/Fthrow is legit on some characters now I think, and probably goes a little farther than that versus some others.

A new option I enjoy is DD Rock Smash. That's always fun. Also, Dash canceling into Dtilt seems useful, but I always forget I can do it so I don't ever use it for kills.

I don't seem to find as many ways to add Flamethrower into my game.

My Charizard keeps getting wrecked by Lucario.

 

[Plum]

Charizard's Uair works beautifully now. If Utilt's cool-down was reduced by the slightest bit I could see Charizard's game revolving heavily around both moves.

I seem to recall that one of the changes was to remove Fair's phantom hits? For some reason I still tend to get phantom hits every once in a while, which is kind of annoying.

Shield stun kind of stifles Charizard's OOS grab game that I'm accustomed to, which really throws me off, sometimes. On the other hand, when Charizard does get that grab it leads into quite a few more directly after. Fthrow/Bthrow/Fthrow is legit on some characters now I think, and probably goes a little farther than that versus some others.

A new option I enjoy is DD Rock Smash. That's always fun. Also, Dash canceling into Dtilt seems useful, but I always forget I can do it so I don't ever use it for kills.

I don't seem to find as many ways to add Flamethrower into my game.

My Charizard keeps getting wrecked by Lucario.

Charizard also has a lot of pseudo chaingrabs, like Fthrow into Fair into another Fthrow at low percents when the Fair doesn't knock them down.

I don't know really when to use Flamethrower outside the obvious edgeguarding either, and even then I tend to prefer a more direct way. Dair is more useful with the speedup, and most of the cast can just be carried off to the blastzone with Fairs or at least put them too far away to get back.

 

[Rudra]

Eh, Flamethrower's not all that hot outside of edgeguarding, but it's decent when using B-Reversal for retreating (though Rock Smash is arguably better). Its okay as an approach, but Charizard's ground and aerial options (and Rock Smash) are equal to or better than it. I guess aside from constant shield pressure (if you land it) and damage (if you cant land a close ranged Rock Smash, and your opponent is a heavy/fastfalling character), its pretty much pales in comparison to Rock Smash, since you can actually combo out of it and all.

 

[GuruKid]

Though I admit its status is no longer what it was in regular Brawl, Flamethrower is still pretty useful. It's a superb edgeguarding move, and is still one of Chary's better spacing options ( especially against the larger characters or fastfallers). I'm also finding myself using flamethrower whenever recovering from high up against edgeguarders who stand by the ledge or try to go for that aerial hit.

It may not be as stellar as it was in Brawl, but still has several key uses.

I'm also loving dair more and more. When spaced well, it's safe on shields, and there are many follow-up options out of it; I've gotten in fairs, bairs, rock smash, and even more fairs. If they tech and roll, tech chasing options come easy (aerials, rock smash, or grab). The move reminds me of Ganon's dair. Dragon Stomp for the win.

 

[shanus]

Just a heads up, squirtles damage output is being lowered a bit in light of recent observations in tournaments, etc. His knockback growth was readjusted so the moves will feel the same, just lower damage output on fair, bair, uair, and utilt. Uair and Utilt also had a bit higher BKB to try and limit the self-comboability of them. Overall, squirtle feels near identical, but the damage output is around -2 for several aerials.

 

[Veril]

Good, after playing against squirtle a lot, since my best friend uses him as a second, I can say that up-air and up-tilt combos are insane. Even as Jiggs, getting hit by an up-tilt meant a ton of damage even if my DI was good. So I guess that's getting toned down some.

Since this is the Trainer thread, I guess its worthwhile to mention that squirtle is by far the most difficult to play against as Jigglypuff. By FAR.

 

[Sudai]

Despite loving the ninja squirtle and pseudo-maining him, I'm glad to see the nerf. It's ridiculous for him to be able to combo like Melee Fox -and- Melee Jiggs and have a huge damage output on top of that.

 

[Arkaether]

I wish Jiggs combo'd like Melee Jiggs ;_;

And dang, Squirtle is incredibly annoying to play against as Jigglypuff.

 

[Rkey]

Is this nerf in the nightly build now? If it is I guess it's time to update again.

 

[JCaesar]

Not yet, it's still the BtL set for now. We're gonna release nightly builds much less frequently from now on.

 

[Veril]

I wish Jiggs combo'd like Melee Jiggs ;_;

And dang, Squirtle is incredibly annoying to play against as Jigglypuff.

I don't. Jiggs is such a solid character, atm she's actually one of the better balanced characters.

Yes, squirtle is a little f***er. I hope he drowns or gets made into soup.

 

[Sudai]

Squirtle? Drown? Pwahaha. And he's not a little ****er..I love him. D:

Might want to change the name "Nightly Builds" if they're not gonna be nightly anymore, btw.

Oh, and Ark, why would you want her to combo like in Melee? Only a few things combo'd into rest in Melee. Now eevveerryytthhiinngg does. Haha.

 

[Arkaether]

Because she felt so much more maneuverable in the air in Melee.
I also wish she could combo from throws, but that's just wishful thinking on my part.
And this is most likely just me, but I can never ever hit with her utilt in B+.

 

[Dajayman]

I have created a discussion/guide for Charizard+. I'm obviously not finished yet, but I will eventually. I'd appreciate if some people helped me complete this and contribute to this. Here is the link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7474137#post7474137

 

[Bauer]

This thread seems quite dead for while...

But I'd like to get some help on fighting MK. He's really giving me a hard time =/

I found Ivy to be the best one against it, tho I might be wrong since my Charizard is really bad compared to the other 2pkmn.

Any tips?

 

[Kaitou Ace]

Ivy seems like a good choice but he should seriously be reserved for when MK is at high %. If you try to start out with Ivy, you will get gimped early and you will be really pissed off. Start with Squirtle and build up the damage with hydroplaned jabs and grabs, especially his Uthrow. Uthrow is also easily combo'd into so definitely use it frequently, it's a lot better than it was in vBrawl. Then, when you feel it's time to switch, Dthrow MK to create a good distance and safely switch to Ivy.

When you're with Ivy, you need to focus really hard, if you slip up, you're done for. However, Ivy can definitely kill MK very easily. Wait for an opportunity to punish, then Dthrow to Uair and watch him get Star KO'd. If that opportunity is not presenting itself, rack up the damage with bair and really piss MK off. It's range is ridiculous and 10% is very good. If you're feeling frisky, you can sourspout a SH dair and catch him with Vine whip's sweetspot and the MK player will get so pissed off, I guarantee it <3. However, a SH sourspotted dair can present many other opportunities like a RAR'd bair or even a Uair.

Try it out. Zard can be okay but he's usually too much of a big target.

 

[Bauer]

Thanks for the advice.

It seems to work well! Building damage with squirtle and then switching to Ivy for the kill, I was unconsciously doing it (my squirtle was getting KO'd and then my Ivy would come and kill xD)

I had thought Zard would be a good ideia but I got combo'ed to hell =/

 

[Kaitou Ace]

Just watch out, better MKs will be able to outplay Ivy so just look out for that. However, if need be, you can reverse the roles. Ivy is quite the damage racker herself, and that was essentially her roll in vBrawl. Bullet Seed, Bair, and Nair should put MK in kill % very easily. Even if it comes to having to bring out Zard, he has so many kill options that he shouldn't have too much trouble killing MK. Then you switch to Squirtle.

Hope it works out!

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

No auto switching? No stamina? PT gets buffed?

Will PT have ANY bad matchup at all in B+?
Now he has: You have to use all three Pokémon so that includes your worst matchup and some characters like Marth have a good matchup against all of them.

It might feel like you can always counterpick even if it's actually your opponents turn to counterpick. =P
Just like Zelda/Sheik mains can, but now with three more different characters. =P

 

[Revven]

No auto switching? No stamina? PT gets buffed?

Will PT have ANY bad matchup at all in B+?
Now he has: You have to use all three Pokémon so that includes your worst matchup and some characters like Marth have a good matchup against all of them.

It might feel like you can always counterpick even if it's actually your opponents turn to counterpick. =P
Just like Zelda/Sheik mains can, but now with three more different characters. =P

Actually, PT is his own character and each Pokemon are also their own character, PT still has forced switching, but, he also has no stamina. While the individual Pokemon can never switch and are not force switched.

 

[GuruKid]

Sorry for not managing this thread more often; I'll get to updating the OP soon, since I doubt Trainer will change much from now.

Regarding MetaKnight: Right now, if I were to play a competent MK in a serious set, chances are I'll just skip Ivy as soon as reasonably possible. The matchup is just annoying and unnecessarily risky; true, Ivy has good range against him, but Meta is the kind of character where if you slip up your walling tactics (which in this particular matchup you can only wall aerially) just once or twice, you're done for. Ivy cannot stand being punished, especially by a flier.

Basically it's a high risk/reward situation, one that I feel is greatly unnecessary. I think it's better to skip the hassle and go with Squirtle (whom I find the best against MK) and Charizard (not the best but also does well).

Will PT have ANY bad matchup at all in B+?

In regular Brawl, excluding MK, here's how it generally went as far as matchups:

One pokemon had the advantage.
One went even.
One did poorly.

The trend seems to be just the same, if not enhanced (thanks to the removal of stamina), in Brawl+. So far in no matchup I've constantly played (about half the roster) have I seen the case where all 3 had the advantage, or all 3 sucked.

Now he has: You have to use all three Pokémon so that includes your worst matchup and some characters like Marth have a good matchup against all of them.

I'm disregarding the current Marth because he sucks, so I'm referring to the Marth from about 1 month ago when I say this:

Ivy has(had) the advantage. Charizard goes(went) even.

It might feel like you can always counterpick even if it's actually your opponents turn to counterpick. =P

Which is why I love this character soooo much!

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Actually, PT is his own character and each Pokemon are also their own character, PT still has forced switching, but, he also has no stamina. While the individual Pokemon can never switch and are not force switched.

Not on my Wii. :-P
But maybe it's becaus eI use PAL or something. :-P

Just got B+ working and PT plays really nice. I don't like B+ Sheik though.

 

[Dajayman]

How can you not like B+ Sheik, she has mad combos.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

How can you not like B+ Sheik, she has mad combos.

Hhmm I guess that I should play Sheik+ more then.

 

[Zschalix]

Quick question:

In vbrawl, squirtle was given the drawback of having few KO options, right?

Well with all the buffs that come along with B+, squirtle is very jigglypuff-like; able to combo, and has a few reliable kill moves (dthrow, WoP gimps, and i'll give credit to Usmash), so i wondered under what circumstances everyone switches to ivy? Excluding on death, obviously...

Also, i find that charizard's balanced play-style provides a good starting pokemon as his recovery is the most glaring weakness; however on death if i lose the first stock, i really wish i could switch to ivy for a cheap dthrow to uair kill. The idea of holding shield to rotate in alternate order seems appealing here.

Just wanted a little feedback: i don't mind having someone more knowledgeable pick me apart for my ignorance on PT.

 

[JCaesar]

Naw, you only switch to Ivy when you're about to die so you can get back to Squirtle quicker