The Plague of Seconds

[KIngGerudo]

Ok, I was at a tournament yesterday and for the most part I went Ganon. I was in the winners bracket for 4 rounds and i thought, "why not try another character?" Big mistake on my part. i ended up losing to a good sheik as Ganon and then in the losers semis, i had to fight my friend Quak, who has a pretty good falco and a really campy fox. Either way it seemed that someone was gonna win some money today and so i decided not to go Ganon, even though i 3 stocked Quaks Fox at the last tournament I played him in and got JV 2 stocked by his falco but i know that i could beat it this time. I ended up going to my trusty second G&W so far he has proven to some good players that a smart G&W can be a crazy match for spacies. So Quak went fox and he beat me 0-2 but even he knew that i SD'd many times (no johns). after that he fought another falco who was good and lost even though my crew told me that i would have beaten him easily. I am still thinking that i would have gotten to the grand finals if i went Ganon. I was wondering what everyone else thinks about this and why the second character seems like a good choice and even though you know the matchup, you dont go ganon.

 

[Galt]

As a G&W player of sorts, I just want to point out that the rumor that G&W can be good against the spacies is false. I think people get that impression because he can combo them from throws and can chaingrab, but... he has to get the grab first. If you ever want to see what I'm talking about, find a friend who plays Falco and tell him to stop trying to actually fight against your G&W, and just SHFFL d-airs the whole time, no shines required. Tell him to land the first d-air behind you, and then just do whatever. And you won't be able to do anything.

Fox, of course, can throw you off and shinespike you with no trouble, or kill you at ~75 with up-smashes.

Just thought I'd point that out. He's bottom-tier for a reason.

 

[Linguini]

Ok, I was at a tournament yesterday and for the most part I went Ganon. I was in the winners bracket for 4 rounds and i thought, "why not try another character?" Big mistake on my part. i ended up losing to a good sheik as Ganon and then in the losers semis, i had to fight my friend Quak, who has a pretty good falco and a really campy fox. Either way it seemed that someone was gonna win some money today and so i decided not to go Ganon, even though i 3 stocked Quaks Fox at the last tournament I played him in and got JV 2 stocked by his falco but i know that i could beat it this time. I ended up going to my trusty second G&W so far he has proven to some good players that a smart G&W can be a crazy match for spacies. So Quak went fox and he beat me 0-2 but even he knew that i SD'd many times (no johns). after that he fought another falco who was good and lost even though my crew told me that i would have beaten him easily. I am still thinking that i would have gotten to the grand finals if i went Ganon. I was wondering what everyone else thinks about this and why the second character seems like a good choice and even though you know the matchup, you dont go ganon.

All ganon, ****

Look, ganon is a good character regardless of what people say, when played efficently and the player has experience in matchups he can take pretty much any character, even the higher tiers. Sure you can play other characters, but dont expect it to be any easier, if your playing a good player and you counterpick him, it wont be pretty.

So unless your counter char is experienced in the matchup your ganon cant handle stay ganon.
I go ganon all the way, and am pretty experienced in all my matchups so I have no need to change.

 

[Soma]

I do this all the time, and quite honestly if I'm feeling a character I shouldn't switch it up, but I always go for what seems like the better match up on paper... Kinda aggrivating.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Play four characters that cover all the bases and be good with three, and have a Fourth just cause it completely owns that match.

Ganon
Jigglypuff
Dr. Mario
Marth

With my Jiggs tied with Ganon as my best character I have plenty of room incase the other player goes Falco. I played on match where I went Ganon and he went Marth, I won so I stayed Ganon, he went Falco. I lost, he stayed Falco I went Jiggs. I stayed Jiggs, he went Fox and lost barely. He stayed and I went Dr. Mario and won.

It's great to be awesome with one character, but its better to play multiple characters that are great and play completely different from one another.

 

[CluelessBTD]

No, it is better IMO to just have one good character and to work on that one, because Melees life is almost over so you may as well use what little time there is to better your main. I go Ganon all the way and can handle most match-ups quite well. I find that I may win with my secondary (fox) sometimes, but I don't feel at all comfortable using him against the pros. With G-dorf, I always feel like I'm doing my best.

 

[DippnDots]

All ganon, ****

Look, ganon is a good character regardless of what people say, when played efficently and the player has experience in matchups he can take pretty much any character, even the higher tiers. Sure you can play other characters, but dont expect it to be any easier, if your playing a good player and you counterpick him, it wont be pretty.

So unless your counter char is experienced in the matchup your ganon cant handle stay ganon.
I go ganon all the way, and am pretty experienced in all my matchups so I have no need to change.

What I've come to believe about Ganon is that, YES, he can take all characters if he plays with his wits and waits for openings. The problem with this though is that once you play really **** good people, you'll realize that they have very little, if any, openings for you to punish.

As for character counter-picking, it's a bad idea unless you're equally skilled with both the counter-pick and your main character. Just because your character has an advantage on one doesn't mean your properly able to use that advantage, or that it will magically make the fight easier with no work on your part.

But yeah, so far in tournaments, I've done all Ganon. Mainly because I think he has an even match up against all high tiers except Sheik. And the reason I play Ganon vs Sheik is just because it's my favorite match up, regardless of the chain-grab frustration.

 

[chaddd]

What I've come to believe about Ganon is that, YES, he can take all characters if he plays with his wits and waits for openings. The problem with this though is that once you play really **** good people, you'll realize that they have very little, if any, openings for you to punish.

That's where you have to make openings to punish. Make people walk into forward tilts and shield your grabs. Switch it up and make it look like you're a crazy person playing smash. Works every time.

@Linguini: It's a good theory, but certain matchups are effortless for certain sides. Sheik has to do no work to kill Ganon, and the only way to beat a Fox with Ganon is to read the player exceptionally well. Knowing your character is great, but to become truly great you have to master all characters from all aspects. I'm not going to work my *** off to pull a close game with a high level Sheik when going Fox would get me an effortless 3 stock. I also don't think that having the ability to do something like this is anything negative in terms of my overall skill. Everyone counter picks. Ken, DSF, PC, M2K, Azen(of course). It's not a skill you should overlook, despite what character pride you may have. I know that my Ganondorf is there to destroy when I need him, but mastering other characters and counterpicks is an easy way to become a skilled player that holds much less risk of unnecessarily losing a close matchup.

 

[KIngGerudo]

That's where you have to make openings to punish. Make people walk into forward tilts and shield your grabs. Switch it up and make it look like you're a crazy person playing smash. Works every time.

@Linguini: It's a good theory, but certain matchups are effortless for certain sides. Sheik has to do no work to kill Ganon, and the only way to beat a Fox with Ganon is to read the player exceptionally well. Knowing your character is great, but to become truly great you have to master all characters from all aspects. I'm not going to work my *** off to pull a close game with a high level Sheik when going Fox would get me an effortless 3 stock. I also don't think that having the ability to do something like this is anything negative in terms of my overall skill. Everyone counter picks. Ken, DSF, PC, M2K, Azen(of course). It's not a skill you should overlook, despite what character pride you may have. I know that my Ganondorf is there to destroy when I need him, but mastering other characters and counterpicks is an easy way to become a skilled player that holds much less risk of unnecessarily losing a close matchup.

most of the time i make it as hard as possible for them to even get in a clean hit. im pretty good at my spacing game. I agree with what you said chaddd, I know my ganon is there when i need him but sometimes I just dont feel the match with him.

 

[EazyP]

First, Quak is a good man, his Mewtwo is beautiful

While people are on it, I highly suggest that people will not just main one character. At the start of summer I was only Falco, and when I played an IC/Jiggs player, I lost pretty hard, I never met anything like it before and I didn't know what to do or expect. I played him at the end of summer with Ganon and Luigi and I won in a money match and most of the day I was winning. Learning new characters = expanding your knowledge, and knowledge is powar

King, since you're playing in a tournament, at the end of the day you're playing to win right? Since you say G&W is your 2nd, and Ganon is your main, I think you know that you're best with Ganon. Why not go with your best when you know you'll have a good shot at winning?

 

[DippnDots]

That's where you have to make openings to punish. Make people walk into forward tilts and shield your grabs. Switch it up and make it look like you're a crazy person playing smash. Works every time.

I'm not saying that Ganon is incapable of "mindgaming" people, rather, he's at a severe disadvantage compared to "high tier" characters when it comes to his options.

For instance, let's say someone's camping and you're having trouble approaching them. Fox, Falco, Samus, Peach, and Sheik all have projectiles to replace approaching somebody. Ganon is at a loss here, he's instead forced to approach.

The power of projectiles became completely evident to me when I saw Joe Bushman111 (ganon) play Ignatius (peach) on Jungle Japes. All Iggy did was camp and throw turnips at Joe. He had absolutely no way to approach him without losing a stock. If he had played someone like fox or falco, he could have shot lazers back and forced Iggy into playing offensively.



But hey, maybe in Brawl he'll have both a projectile and disjointed hitbox, SCORE!

 

[linkmastersword]

ok, I have something to say... I'm a ganon main who seconds fox and samus

I KNOW ganon has a game against falco, yet even though I know what to do, I still get handled. (I don't lose at YS to falcos though) So I often go samus and win or do better than my ganon would've. are there any other ganon mains who use samus as a falco counter? if so I'd like to know how it worked out for you, or if its better to just get really good at the match up.

p.s. I have no good falcos or foxes to train against. just sheiks and peaches :/

 

[KIngGerudo]

ok, I have something to say... I'm a ganon main who seconds fox and samus

I KNOW ganon has a game against falco, yet even though I know what to do, I still get handled. (I don't lose at YS to falcos though) So I often go samus and win or do better than my ganon would've. are there any other ganon mains who use samus as a falco counter? if so I'd like to know how it worked out for you, or if its better to just get really good at the match up.

p.s. I have no good falcos or foxes to train against. just sheiks and peaches :/

perhaps you are getting camped out or you cant escape the combos. other than that it sounds like you know your counter for him.

I have used samus vs falco but do not like doing it very often. i use my bombs and missle cancels to approach him and if he gets a little to out of hand, then i camp him out and when he comes from aove, i screw atk out. also, try not to forget that bombs>illusion and utilt is you friend.

 

[Soma]

Thats actually pretty odd since a campy Falco gives a lot of Samus' problems.

 

[linkmastersword]

I know its odd, I studied some Linguini vs falco and he makes it seem so... for lack of better words.... feasible to beat a techy falco just by sticking to the same game plan all game long. He manages to avoid lasers well too.

my samus just gets camped hard by falcos, but the only things that I really like her for, are the Nair which owns falcos recovery, and the platform canceled missiles. don't get me wrong though, I'd much prefer to stay ganon in that much up if I could

 

[O D I N]

:shrug: In tourney, I only play as Ganondorf. I main him for a reason, ya know.

 

[KIngGerudo]

yea ODIN, i should have gone straight Ganondorf. maybe i will put more effort into playing him more like i used to and stop trying to neglect what got me far in the brackets.

 

[O D I N]

yea ODIN, i should have gone straight Ganondorf. maybe i will put more effort into playing him more like i used to and stop trying to neglect what got me far in the brackets.

The way I look at it, stick with what you know.

There was this guy at a tourney I was just at. He decided that day he was gonna use Ganondorf. He loses his first match to a Falco. His buddy tells him to go back to Sheik, and his Sheik beats him in the next two matches to finish off the set.

Then I had to fight him (and I U-tilt killed him too! ^ ^).

My point is, if you stick with the character that you know how to use, and feel comfortable using them, you'll get a lot farther (not that I've gotten far in any brackets, but farther than last. ).

 

[KIngGerudo]

The way I look at it, stick with what you know.

There was this guy at a tourney I was just at. He decided that day he was gonna use Ganondorf. He loses his first match to a Falco. His buddy tells him to go back to Sheik, and his Sheik beats him in the next two matches to finish off the set.

Then I had to fight him (and I U-tilt killed him too! ^ ^).

My point is, if you stick with the character that you know how to use, and feel comfortable using them, you'll get a lot farther (not that I've gotten far in any brackets, but farther than last. ).

yea thats true. I just have problems with really defensive players so i tend to go G&W for the surprise attacks and easy edge guards or falco to put pressure on them with teh lazorz. I guess sticking with Ganondorf will help me out in the long run than any other char can because it feels so much better playing him than everyone else.

 

[Renth]

I play ganon and only ganon in tournaments using any other character is blasphemy

 

[Mr. Ganondorf]

Ganon only has one unfair matchup, I don't care what anyone says and that's Sheik. He can win all his other matches, even though Falco is hard and Fox is harder. Eddie has been doing it right for ages, Ganon and Fox. It took me til just a little while ago to figure it out lol. Fox against Sheik, Ganon vs everything else. As for beating Falco, don't **** up your grabs, make em count. learn to powershield lasers. Even PS'ing a few is really frustrating for the Falco. Also, spam jab, then tech chase. And Fox, grrr Fox. I find the best way to fight him is to control the stage and confine him to one side. It's a much easier battle if you always keep him in the corner.

 

[linkmastersword]

am I the only one who thinks that fox is a harder match up than sheik?

I don't find the sheik match up that bad to be honest.

but then again, I learned how to chain grab really well, and alot of the sheiks I know don't chain grab me.
just mind game them in to the grab, and tech your recovery with great precision.