The Pit Metagame Developement and Analysis Thread

[Phaigne]

show me a vid of the most recent pit you have thats consider average and ill tell u. i just know i don't play like most pits. i learned pit by my self xD pit boards never helped <_<

What Pit player would you consider average? As far as I can tell, we are all bad-*****.


Though I will ***** out my videos:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=5B884649098CC25C

Let's say I'm average. I do use most normal Pit techniques, so just tell me what you do different.

 

[humble]

show me a vid of the most recent pit you have thats consider average and ill tell u. i just know i don't play like most pits. i learned pit by my self xD pit boards never helped <_<

Haha I am reminded of the time I discovered wing dashing, I thought it was so amazing so I came on SB to tell the Pit boards about it and apparently they all knew and hated it. Apparently the reasons not to use it is "it has a chance to lag if messed up" which isn't a problem since wing dashing can be done consistently with practice and like sheiks DACUS.

 

[Coffee™]

Weak Bair - > stuff and Woi OoS. Find out stuff about them

 

[Phaigne]

Weak Bair - > stuff and Woi OoS. Find out stuff about them

I'm confused, is that a critique to my video, a suggestion for me to look into, or something else entirely?

 

[Coffee™]

I'm confused, is that a critique to my video, a suggestion for me to look into, or something else entirely?

It is what needs to be looked at. I'm finding some good stuff with em.

 

[Phaigne]

It is what needs to be looked at. I'm finding some good stuff with em.

Will do. You're the first person to give me a lead.

 

[Katana_koden]

Since this thread is for increasing his meta game how about this.

I haven't really used it yet but.

You know when you send someone is above you and you instantly chase, maybe with an up-air.
We can probably jump evade past their evade and/or attack, then dair. If someone can test it for me since I might get my wii tomorrow from my friend and test on lvl 9 cpu with dair-dair- combo to dair- up-aerial evade -dair. (situational)

When we short hop fair or dair, we have just enough time to WOI in then air. But we don't need to dair
to cancel it. We can d-tilt buffer or attack regular. We also have enough time if we shorthop with MS, gotta be fast.

Slightly even faster WOI flying. If you jump with WoI then move forward, its slow kinda.
If we jump with WoI then press forward instantly he'll dash alot faster.
If we walk or dash forward or while using some forward momentum then jump to WoI then instantly press forward, I think he'll go his fastest. Almost moving up and down shaking as he go. Maybe known idk.

I'm still confused about pits sliding but I think you know this one, just sharing just in case. When you slightly tap forward and slide the control stick down or continue in that direction, he will slide. ex: Forward-Down-d-tilt he will slide with it. I've been trying to match arrow looping with this since they feel in the same motion. Managed to get a three hit combo on light characters for fun kinda.
Jigglypuff> since f-throws don't work use back throw to a tilt. I looped an arrow backwards slid into a grab and threw backwards followed by that earlier arrow then the sliding down tilt. But it's just for fun if you can't use it competitively.

 

['Kicks']

ok i think that this thread needs a complete overhaul. Pit has so much more potential than where he is currently place in the tier list. I am not some blinded lunatic that thinks he is the best character in the game but he has a lot of things going for him. I dont need to write out a whole thread about what makes him so good but certain things i think need to be relooked at in order to advance his meta game. I feel like a lot of things with him have been overlooked and need to be addressed again so i am going to throw out some suggestions at stuff i think we need to reconsider or go over again completely. I wont give my opinion on things until there is some feedback and i see how the rest of the pit users feel. But these are all things that i find useful that i think needs more looking into or that the pit community needs to completely look over again



1. Wings of Icarus. I think pit has a lot of potential with this one more. I think we need to go over again wingdashing and wing lunging.

2. Edgeguarding.

3. Planking

4. Offensive playstyles. I see more talk about defensive styles and camping which is good because there is a major strongpoint there with pit. But he can also be played as an offensive character and we should talk about some of those strategies as well.

5. Advanced techniques in competetive play other than arrow looping. I am not saying arrow loopping is completely useless or anything but we need to take another look at things like ART, DACUS, Boost pivot grabbing and Wing renewal.


I think a thorough discussion on all this is needed. Please do not dismiss this. If i am a raving lunatic prove it to me in discussion and not dissmisal of this post.

If we go over all of this in depth we might be able to hammer out some good progress in his meta game.

Video evidence is always welcome in the discussion. I would provide you all with some but sadly i cannot capture videos

 

['Kicks']

I also forgot about spacing. I think spacing need to be talked about to since most pits i watch lack proper spacing and spacing is what wins you fights

 

[Phaigne]

Well guys, you have given me some good ideas on where to look and some points to make. Unfortunately. I've been ridiculously busy with the holidays and work, so hopefully I will get to them soon. But don't wait on me, check some of this **** out yourselves.

 

['Kicks']

well i mean i have checked all my suggestions out myself and when used correctly i find them very viable tactics. I can present evidence to all my claims and reasons why i think things should be discussed. I just wanted to see a general consensus of where these pit boards are at since i am new to this site.

 

[Coffee™]

In addition i know this is probably old but it looks like pit has a boost pivot grab. Not as good as falco's but it still is good. I have not confirmed this with anyone though so I might need someone to test it out for me as well and confirm it. I do it the same way falco does his so someone else try it out. It would be a good tool to use since he has a really good pivot grab range.

Please punch me if this has already been discussed

Pit's BPG has roughly the same range as his normal PG. Its hardly useful since he doesn't slide enough to make it any more pratical than his normal PG.

Offensive playstyles. I see more talk about defensive styles and camping which is good because there is a major strongpoint there with pit. But he can also be played as an offensive character and we should talk about some of those strategies as well.

Why play towards the characters weaker aspects?. His moveset is not optimal for offensive play.

5. Advanced techniques in competetive play other than arrow looping. I am not saying arrow loopping is completely useless or anything but we need to take another look at things like ART, DACUS, Boost pivot grabbing and Wing renewal.

ART, maybe. Wing renewal is good. The other 2 are useless for Pit. Angel Step is good, but noone uses it.

 

[Katana_koden]

True Angel step is great!
I'm starting to think arrow looping isn't that good on the ground.

The way pit always knockback at some angles, a looped arrow makes an easy follow up.

Don't forget his great shield poking ability with all his attack moves.

 

[Phaigne]

You know R@vyn, while I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I wanted to know; what makes Pit's moves more defensive than offensive?

 

[Coffee™]

You know R@vyn, while I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, I wanted to know; what makes Pit's moves more defensive than offensive?

Look at the characters that excel at offense in brawl and then compare the moves they use for approaching to Pit's respective moveset. Nothing he has is comparable to Marth's SH double aerials or MK's "autocancellable" everything. He also can't follow up after his projectiles like Falco or Pikachu. It's hard in general for him to be an offensive character.

All he really gets to really create an offense with are Fair and Dair. Which to put to bluntly aren't great offensive moves.

 

[Phaigne]

Look at the characters that excel at offense in brawl and then compare the moves they use for approaching to Pit's respective moveset. Nothing he has is comparable to Marth's SH double aerials or MK's "autocancellable" everything. He also can't follow up after his projectiles like Falco or Pikachu. It's hard in general for him to be an offensive character.

All he really gets to really create an offense with are Fair and Dair. Which to put to bluntly aren't great offensive moves.

While I agree mostly with everything you said, I don't think you should be so hard on Pit. No, he does not have the best offense in the entire cast, but he does have average or above average offensive capabilities. As for approaches, you have SH arrows, F-air, D-Air, and N-air. I know you will say something about N-air, but I believe it has several applications, if you would care to look at my first post.

Also, for arrow follow-ups, you are correct, pit has almost none. But I believe, with almost exact spacing, a D-tilt is about guaranteed.

 

[Afropony]

Since this thread is for increasing his meta game how about this.

I haven't really used it yet but.

You know when you send someone is above you and you instantly chase, maybe with an up-air.
We can probably jump evade past their evade and/or attack, then dair. If someone can test it for me since I might get my wii tomorrow from my friend and test on lvl 9 cpu with dair-dair- combo to dair- up-aerial evade -dair. (situational)

This works but you need to time it well or else they'll fall under you.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Look at the characters that excel at offense in brawl and then compare the moves they use for approaching to Pit's respective moveset. Nothing he has is comparable to Marth's SH double aerials or MK's "autocancellable" everything. He also can't follow up after his projectiles like Falco or Pikachu. It's hard in general for him to be an offensive character.

All he really gets to really create an offense with are Fair and Dair. Which to put to bluntly aren't great offensive moves.

I disagree, Pit can be played offensively. Examples are Koolaid, and ADN. The play pretty offensive Pits. We can't forget about Pit's amazing shield pressure. 1 nair can deplete an opponents shield for arrow piercing.

 

['Kicks']

I was not implying pit was not one of the better offensive characters in the game. But he does have some offensive potential. And while I love a defensive style of play myself i think it would be important to round pit out and search from some of the practical ways to use him offensively.

Nair can be a good offensive move is the player is DI'ing correctly and does not get shield grabbed everytime.

Don't forget that when approaching we can always attack the top of the shield with a Fair and then when you land buffer a d tilt to tattack the bottom of it. When we are in close our jabs are also a very good offensive tool we can use. And our Dair can set up a lot of things offesively especially since pit has a very good air game.

If all else fails in close combat we can wingdash as a retreat and thrown out an f tilt or a d tilt. We can even retreat with a normal or a boosted pivot grab to catch someone running in after us.

Pit is also very good at two other things in my opinion that would contribute well to an offensive playstyle. The first being with his projectiles and approaching aerials pit is good at forcing a player to play evasive by shielding or dodging. When pit get in close he is fast enough to capitalize on these things too.

Another tool i think that is being underused is his downthrow. From this throw almost anything the opponent does can be punished unless it is an MK player.

So i mean yes playing offensively may be a little weaker playstlye occasionaly. But there are a lot of pro's to it and I think we need to look into it and discuss it a little more thoroughly

 

[Coffee™]

I disagree, Pit can be played offensively. Examples are Koolaid, and ADN. The play pretty offensive Pits. We can't forget about Pit's amazing shield pressure. 1 nair can deplete an opponents shield for arrow piercing.

Nair is mediocre in general as an offensive approach. It's good if you know you can shield poke with it or beat a spot dodge but aside from that a move that does 11% max and is very easy to DI out of so you generally only take 3-4% max is obviously not that great when trying to go on the offensive. On the other hand its pretty good defensively since it's his fastest move and is usable OoS where most of his moveset isn't. In certain matchups its good as an offensive approach but those are very few.

Nair can be a good offensive move is the player is DI'ing correctly and does not get shield grabbed everytime.

If you use Nair smartly you shouldn't really get shield grabbed in the first place but I'm not a fan of such little damage when you could use an arrow from a distance, be safer and possibly score the same amount of damage or more.

Pit is also very good at two other things in my opinion that would contribute well to an offensive playstyle. The first being with his projectiles and approaching aerials pit is good at forcing a player to play evasive by shielding or dodging. When pit get in close he is fast enough to capitalize on these things too.

Pit cannot immediately capitalize on his projectiles forcing anything unless he is directly under his opponent and you you are shooting upwards at them. Pit's aerials are also average at approaching and won't really force a good player into excessively shielding or dodging.

Another tool i think that is being underused is his downthrow. From this throw almost anything the opponent does can be punished unless it is an MK player.

True. Mk is not an exception.

So i mean yes playing offensively may be a little weaker playstlye occasionaly. But there are a lot of pro's to it and I think we need to look into it and discuss it a little more thoroughly

My one question is why would you bother playing a style you know is weaker? Just so you can look cool while playing a losing battle?

 

[Phaigne]

Nair is mediocre in general as an offensive approach. It's good if you know you can shield poke with it or beat a spot dodge but aside from that a move that does 11% max and is very easy to DI out of so you generally only take 3-4% max is obviously not that great when trying to go on the offensive. On the other hand its pretty good defensively since it's his fastest move and is usable OoS where most of his moveset isn't. In certain matchups its good as an offensive approach but those are very few.

This is what I want to talk about. Does a move necessarily have to hit for it to be an approach?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

This is what I want to talk about. Does a move necessarily have to hit for it to be an approach?

It depends on what the definition “approach” means to you. To me, an approach is generally a safe move that can force a reaction. It has to be a move that allows one to gain a better position on the battlefield. All of Pits aerials can be considered as an “approach.” His best are dair, fair, and nair. Bair and uair are his punishers. If you consider his whole moveset, then dash shield, aerials mentioned above, glide, and reflector(IMO) are his best.

 

[Salty123]

I believe an approach to be a test. something you do not so much to gain damage but to see what your opponent will do. I do disagree on one point VaStar. I do not believe that approaching with a shield is a wise move. That's just asking to be grabbed. The same goes for the reflector and the glide.

as for submitting new ideas I have a bit of a variation on the jjg. mine is jab-jab-jab cancel-forward smash

 

['Kicks']

Right now it is a weaker playstlye. The meta game especially concerning his offensive capabilities is severely under developed. I am not trying to play offensive all the time. I just want a very good offensive style when it comes time for me to punish someone. Or in the event the person I am playing has a very horrible defense. I know he can play offensive we just need to ecperiment with it.

Do not get me wrong I am going to play to win. I have no problem with playing a defensive game. But the way I am seeing it if a good player is playing pit he is definitely capable of a good offensive playstyle. I dont see a reason why we should not try and develop a good offensive game for him.

If we want his meta game to advance we can't just selectively work on aspects of him. We have to talk about and exploit everything that he can do.

 

[Coffee™]

It depends on what the definition “approach” means to you. To me, an approach is generally a safe move that can force a reaction. It has to be a move that allows one to gain a better position on the battlefield. .

Pit's arrows do this and are are safer than any of his aerials. They aren't an approach but you should see what I'm getting at by pointing that out.

I believe an approach to be a test. something you do not so much to gain damage but to see what your opponent will do.

This is what the main purpose of Pit's Arrow is.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

I believe an approach to be a test. something you do not so much to gain damage but to see what your opponent will do. I do disagree on one point VaStar. I do not believe that approaching with a shield is a wise move. That's just asking to be grabbed. The same goes for the reflector and the glide.

as for submitting new ideas I have a bit of a variation on the jjg. mine is jab-jab-jab cancel-forward smash

Dash shield is a viable approach. The only option that can beat it is a grab, and as long as you keep mixing it up, they shouldn't be grabbing you.

Glide is another overlooked approach because you follow-up w/ Pit's ENTIRE moveset. I'm sure we all know that not all of Pit's moves are that great at close range, but moves like jab, jab(x3), grab, and aerials, can set up for Pit's amazing shield pressure game, which is VERY under-developed.

I understand where kicks is coming from. He wants to develop “well-rounded” Pits. We can't rely on his defensive game the entire match. There will a time in a match where Pit will have the opportunity to deal MAJOR damage. What I see is that he wants us to ask ourselves, “How are we going to capitalize on X opponent?”

 

[Ryos4]

I've been out for rather long from brawl but as far as i can tell it hasnt seemed to change all that much.

Im not sure if it has been talked about but, ive actually stumbled upon that Nair sliding thing myself a while back and i really get alot of use out of it. Not really as an approach or anything but mostly as an edge guard possibility when ur opponent is hanging off the ledge.

Basically standing just out of range of there ledge attack and too far for you to directly hit them. SH nair approach and at its peak reverse ur momentum and into a reverse sliding fsmash. It catches alot of ledge hoppers, ledge attackers, and rollers. (i might look for a match where i actually do this)
Scratch that i dont think i have anything recorded with that.

And as said before ive been gone awhile so i have no idea went on here for a good year ish.

 

['Kicks']

I love the arrows but that is only one way to measure something. Arrows are a very useful too and they can be beaten. Most of the smash community has found their ways around arrows and most good players can get around a camping gameplan.

Arrows are good and a very optimal choice if you need to hang back. However I think we need to work on actually having an advancing approach. And we need to mix approaches and defensice games up so that we can get different reactions. We need to be versatile so we do not fall into predictable and counterable patterns.


Before I go because I am in a rush I do not believe dash shielding to be a good approach. It is far too risky and against a character like falco , IC's or D3 it may cost you a stock. So I think we need to look at better things than this

 

[Afropony]

I love the arrows but that is only one way to measure something. Arrows are a very useful too and they can be beaten. Most of the smash community has found their ways around arrows and most good players can get around a camping gameplan.

I also think we need to work on the ways we use the arrows.
If your opponent is trying to get past them by SHAD'ing then you can usually hold the arrow and time it to hit them in their landing lag.

Arrows are good and a very optimal choice if you need to hang back. However I think we need to work on actually having an advancing approach. And we need to mix approaches and defensice games up so that we can get different reactions. We need to be versatile so we do not fall into predictable and counterable patterns.

I agree with this, we need to work on a range of different approaches which we can use when arrows aren't working.

Before I go because I am in a rush I do not believe dash shielding to be a good approach. It is far too risky and against a character like falco , IC's or D3 it may cost you a stock. So I think we need to look at better things than this

Against characters like D3 and IC's you're not going to be approaching them with a sliding shield, but against characters like Lucas or ZSS who don't have very good grabs it's a pretty good approach.

I'm thinking maybe we need to make a thread on different approaches we can use against all the characters.

 

['Kicks']

despite people not having a very good grab i still am not fond at all of the shielding approach. Whomever you are playing can and usually will grab you. No matter how bad their grabs are they will do damage and put control of the match in their hands. Controlling the match is a huge factor. SUPER HUGE! You want to take as little damage as possible. Besides from zero percent ZSS can chain grab us. So watch out for that.

and another point i wanted to make last time but couldn't: There are characters who can out camp us. So when our arrow camping is not pulling them in to us or doing any damage what then? If approaching and playing offensively are a weaker playstyle are we just suppossed to accept that we will lose that match. No we are not. We approach and play offensively to gain the control of the match back.

Will pit develop into a character with one of the best approaches in the game? Very unlikely.
But his offensive capabilities are staring us in the face guys. I love defense but we dont really have that many moves that can go right out of a shield. So after a while people can see through a pit defense because pit's defense while very very good is not the most versatile.

I really want this thread to come alive with thoughts and theories on an offense for pit. There is no reason why we should not delve into it. Maybe we can also find some stuff to help his defense out along the way too

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

It sucks that we don't have active Pit boards anymore. We need some excitement.

We also need Koolaid's input as he is one of our best players atm.

 

[FrznSaber]

It sucks that we don't have active Pit boards anymore. We need some excitement.

We also need Koolaid's input as he is one of our best players atm.

In terms of sheer offense and tournament placing. But I want to see this style that he's going to be working like in his said blog.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=50928

 

[Coffee™]

In terms of sheer offense and tournament placing. But I want to see this style that he's going to be working like in his said blog.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=50928

Def > Off... thats all.

 

[Jupz]

I agree with Ravyn. Pit plays best on the ledge.

 

['Kicks']

Def > Off... thats all.

yes for now it def is and it may be like this forever too. But why not delve into the rest of pit's arsenal and fully develop his meta game? Yes his ledge game is awesome and his defensive game is awesome.

But if we do not fully develop pit people only have to look out for a certain amount of things. Pit can play good offensively so why not try and work on that too. Why not work on some of pit's weaker spots so they become less weak. I do not understand you not wanting to fully develop this character. I do not understand why you only want to point out strong points that have been developed and tested. What about the untested? What about the theoretical stuff we could work on?

I am not trying to talk just about offensive styles. I do not even want to play an exclusively offensive style. I want to play to win. But I want to win every single match I play not just some of them. And to do that we need to look at everything pit can do. We need to explore every bit of his arsenal and every situation. I really want to delve into what pit can and cannot do through discussions, not through one line opinionated responses.


I am not trying to attack you personally or anything or even start an opinion war. I just do not see the point of not fully trying to develop our character

 

['Kicks']

besides so many pits play so good in different ways. Pit is one of the only characters that has so many diverse players that do well/semi-well. Why not take all the good aspects of those players and combine them?

 

[Coffee™]

I see no problem with what you want to ultimately achieve but I don't agree with you about how you want to go about doing it. However, actions speak louder than words, so what have you come up with?

 

[Cha0tic NiGhTmArE]

I see no problem with what you want to ultimately achieve but I don't agree with you about how you want to go about doing it. However, actions speak louder than words, so what have you come up with?

i agree, but if you dont have your own style, it makes it hard to achieve a decent style of play in the first place.

 

['Kicks']

Ultimately I have only come up with some suggestions that I have already posted. I am just getting really deep into the tournament scene so my theorycrafting is based off a group of kids I play with. I play with good players but not elite players and def not against the whole cast. And while I round my playstlye out the best I can I am not adept at everything. But I will tell you the things I have come up with by myself.

Since the defensive style is more developed I will just try and key in on some offensive things.

*as a quick point everything should be spaced out perfectly so that everything hits at the reach of it's range to keep opponent retaliation at a low. IMO

prepare for a wall of text lol


On approaches:

First of all I just have to mention that wingdashing towards an opponent is dumb. As is a slidind shield in my opinion.

SH arrows I feel are also unsafe as an approach. Great defensive move but there is not enough knockback or hit stun to keep you safe. Someone could dash in at you and either ourprioritze the arrow or even PS it and grab you. So as an approach arrows are not good.

approaching from the ground:

(not from more that one full jump or one short hop)

I know every one has different views on Nair but I really like it. It is a move that if they shield it and the attack batters it to much it is a DI-able move that we can either retreat or rise above the grab range of most characters. If the attack hits there is just enough knockback to put them out of range and regardless of whether you DI up or backwards you can set more strings of attack up. You can also land the attack at the right time and buffer in a fast attack or even a retreating wingdash.

Another great approaching option is Fair. It is disjointed and has a good amount of priority. It is an excellent short hopped aerial that autocancels thus making it perfect for you to react in whatever way that you wish. A great shield pressuring tactic is to aim for the top of the character with the fair and when you land buffer a Dtilt in. Both attacks are fast and have good priority. If the opponent gets hit by one or the other they both have multiple follow ups. If the opponent shields though their shield will take damage and both attacks are excellent shield stabbers. Stay out of shield grabbing range and it is a really good pressuring tactic.

Another potential approach is a full hopped back air. I know this is not a potentially good one. It is just one I find effective when used randomly and kind of as a counter approach. I usually full hop and then fast fall the back air. The Bair stays out longer that a lot of moves and can catch people off guard. I see some potential in this but it is very untested.

From the ground try walking forward with some angelic stepping. Out of the steps work the jabs. They come out fast and are disjointed. The jabs can cancel into any number of things (which i will go over in a minute). The angelic steps 1. are a safe option to approach without commiting too much to an attack 2. Almost every attack can be buffered out of it and 3. The chance of slipping is drastically reduced.

Approaching from above (more than one jump or from directly above):

With his extra jumps pit excels at pressuring characters from above. It is imperative a pit player is good with their aerial spacing and is able to stay out of danger while in the air.

Dair is one of pits best friends here. Especially at lower percents. Dair has a bit of landing lag if you hit the ground but in the air it actually goes away pretty quick. It comes out very fast and has a very wide range. From above pit can space out some Dair's so that he can land an attack and not be retaliated against easily. As we all know it brings an opponent up which sets up tons of other options perfectly. It does have a bit of hit lag but not enough to hinder repeatedly pressuring a shield from above.

Wings of Icarus I feel are also very underused from above. With it's push effect, depending on your opponent's character, can stop or slow your opponent from trying to reach you. Results vary depending on the character and any applied DI of course. Wings are a great spacing tool and can be used to move around in your airspace to properly readjust yourself. A complete stop in motion usually throws your opponent off and leaves them open for a wing lunge.

Wing lunging is a great tech. The speed of fast falling and wing lunging is very hard for an opponent to deal with defensivly and very very hard for someone to counter half way through. The range of your fair is also increased so there is another great advantage to an already good appraoching option.


topics other than approaching:

Jabs: I love the jabs. They are a long reaching attack that with two jabs pulls them in and with three jabs knocks them back. We need to do more than just double jab and then a grab. Practice different setups to catch people. A very good tool to use is a boost pivot grab. Double jab and then boost pivot grab behind them for your free grab. Something I have had success with recently is the double jab to an Utilt or Dtilt. Both can shield stab at the bottom if they try to buffer in a shield. Another thing I am testing is a SHNair after the two jabs. I am not a fan of always jab cancelling because i hate becoming predicable so switch to using all three sometimes. I do not find too much use for the infinite jab.

Downthrow. I see too many pits aiming for the forward throw chain grab and either their timing messes up and they miss the grab or they get in too close and lose the offensive advantage. Down throw sets characters up for all kinds of attack, SH Uair and Nair if they just try and fast fall to the ground. You can also wait for the AD and hit a regrab. Regrab is also very possible if they descend with an attack and pit shields it.


I also think most things WoI need to be reanalyzed. Wingdashig when used correctly is a very viable tech for high level players. Out of a double jabs you can retreat a wingdash and buffer in a tilt or a Fsmash. or even the rare angel ring. Wingdashing also is hell on momentum for light characters and any character approaching with attacks with mediocre or less momentum. Momentum cancelling your opponent needs to really be looked at. Both from on the ground and by catching them in the air. I have tons of success capitalizing on characters after you **** their moving momentum.

WoI from the ground is a great way to get into the air fast. It as mentioned earlier can also push the opponent away to help correct spacing and get into the air.


this is all i can think of atm but I have been working on a tad more. Let me go relook over some of my videos and get back to you later. I would love some discussion and insight into this wall of text though.


*EDIT*I knew i was forgetting something I would really like others to look into! When someone pursues me when I am in the air my spacing is usually good enough to footstool my opponent. right after the footstool i use WoI. It pushes the opponent down and they bounce off the ground. They do not land and leave them untouchable but they bounce. I have only tried Wing lunging and hitting them with the extended Fair. I do not think I have missed an opponent using this yet and I hit it surprisingly often. I am going to try and find some other things to do after the WoI but would love if others would try and test it with me

 

[sagemoon]

Wings of Icarus I feel are also very underused from above.

This

With it's push effect, depending on your opponent's character, can stop or slow your opponent from trying to reach you. Results vary depending on the character and any applied DI of course.

I disagree, the only time I find the push useful is to push an opponent off the platform to send them in the freefall animation and vulnerable to attack. Otherwise the windpush is pretty useless in this situation.

Wings are a great spacing tool and can be used to move around in your airspace to properly readjust yourself. A complete stop in motion usually throws your opponent off and leaves them open for a wing lunge.

Exactly how it should be used. Also adding to that, you can bait the opponent into shielding when they have a weak shield, then pivot lunge a bair to shield poke bair them. depending on how risky you are, you can beat down their shield, or just wait in the air because the opponent will be expecting an attack and hold out their shield as it deteriorates

Wing lunging is a great tech. The speed of fast falling and wing lunging is very hard for an opponent to deal with defensivly and very very hard for someone to counter half way through.

Be careful with this, lunging into a shield leaves pit vulnerable to attack. the spacing has to be right so you hit with the tip of the fair. Most characters cant punish, but for ones such as snake, it's better to lunge away from them while doing a fair. If you're good with the spacing, you will hit them as you're retreating, pushing them too far away from you for them to punish it (unless it's a perfect shield, so watch out for that)

The range of your fair is also increased so there is another great advantage to an already good appraoching option.

The range isn't increased, pit moves forward with it. There's a difference. Attacks that outprioiritize fair (snakes utilt, metaknights up b, marths up b, etc) will hit pit out of the fair, so be careful about that.

Jabs: I love the jabs. They are a long reaching attack that with two jabs pulls them in and with three jabs knocks them back. We need to do more than just double jab and then a grab. Practice different setups to catch people. A very good tool to use is a boost pivot grab. Double jab and then boost pivot grab behind them for your free grab. Something I have had success with recently is the double jab to an Utilt or Dtilt. Both can shield stab at the bottom if they try to buffer in a shield. Another thing I am texting is a SHNair after the two jabs. I am not a fan of always jab cancelling because i hate becoming predicable so switch to using all three sometimes. I do not find too much use for the infinite jab.

just be careful on jab canceling on anyone with quick attacks, marth's up b will punish a jab cancel. Infinite jabs are a good way to build damage and punish shield attempts.

Downthrow. I see too many pits aiming for the forward throw chain grab and either their timing messes up and they miss the grab or they get in too close and lose the offensive advantage. Down throw sets characters up for all kinds of attack, SH Uair and Nair if they just try and fast fall to the ground. You can also wait for the AD and hit a regrab. Regrab is also very possible if they descend with an attack and pit shields it.

This happens because it's actually possible to DI the forward throw with some characters (like snake). You can get the regrab by waiting on the spotdodge, or shield dash and punish with a smash, or pivot grab. There's lots of options to punish the spotdodge, more so than the airdodge.

I also think most things WoI need to be reanalyzed. Wingdashig when used correctly is a very viable tech for high level players. Out of a double jabs you can retreat a wingdash and buffer in a tilt or a Fsmash. or even the rare angel wing. Wingdashing also is hell on momentum for light characters and any character approaching with attacks with mediocre or less momentum. Momentum cancelling your opponent needs to really be looked at. Both from on the ground and by catching them in the air. I have tons of success capitalizing on characters after you **** their moving momentum.

Wingdashing works better for floaty characters. It's not good verse any high/top tiers though (maybe vs meta in certain situations, but in general, no) The only time I suggest it is to back down from approaching since it cancels your momentum on the spot. It's not an offensive move, it's a defensive move.

WoI from the ground is a great way to get into the air fast. It as mentioned earlier can also push the opponent away to help correct spacing and get into the air.

I disagree, don't do it.

*EDIT*I knew i was forgetting something I would really like others to look into! When someone pursues me when I am in the air my spacing is usually good enough to footstool my opponent. right after the footstool i use WoI. It pushes the opponent down and they bounce off the ground. They do not land and leave them untouchable but they bounce. I have only tried Wing lunging and hitting them with the extended Fair. I do not think I have missed an opponent using this yet and I hit it surprisingly often. I am going to try and find some other things to do after the WoI but would love if others would try and test it with me

I've actually done this a couple times. The timing is really hard, and it's easier to do on taller characters, but there's a couple factors to consider. The character has to have some distance in the air (pit should be roughly at his short hop height when he footstools) The WoI MUST be buffered. You can then BUFFER a pivot bair from here and land the sweetspot bair. It is guaranteed, I've only done this about 5 times, on snake, TL, wario, and marth. It's really hard to do because the height has to match and you have to have a double buffer here.